Terminology question: 'walking through'

Posted by: harlan

Terminology question: 'walking through' - 05/22/08 02:24 PM

I can find words for punches, kicks, etc. But there are other aspects of learning that I don't have a mental handle on. One is the aspect of 'walking through' somebody. Is there available terminology for this? By this, I mean using the angles, momentum, and balance to make the most of one's own mass. Feels like the other person just 'walks through you.'

thanks for any feedback
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 05/22/08 11:30 PM

I refer to it as crushing people. And throwing them into the wind.
Posted by: sasori_te

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 05/22/08 11:42 PM

What's wrong with describing it as walking through someone?
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 05/23/08 04:44 AM

Quote:

I refer to it as crushing people. And throwing them into the wind.



I refer to it as tearing people into shreds, stamping on those shreds until they are dust, setting the dust on fire, standing back and hurling a grenade into the melee, then sitting back with a nice cuppa and a shortbread biscuit (or maybe a slice of baked cheese cake).
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 05/23/08 04:45 AM

I think the correct term is "irimi" which means "entering".
Posted by: Shonuff

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 05/23/08 05:00 AM

I prefer your first term.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 05/23/08 11:32 AM

In AKK this is called "launching", accelerating your mass to occupy the space where your opponent is. Usually as part of a specific attack (kick, punch, etc), but sometimes just as a 'rush' into their space to knock them away.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 05/23/08 11:41 AM

There really is no sense of force. I can't find the term 'irimi' associated with karate on the forums (yet). I suppose this video touches on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrYKn7Rtkwg

What I can understand of this mechanic so far, is it's part of blocking, unbalancing, and redirecting the other person...they just go flying if you get the angles right.
Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 05/23/08 11:54 AM

Harlan

Irimi is a term most often used in Aikido. Here are some pretty good Aikido explanation of it (well, Irimi-Nage):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt4ts-rOpyM

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=205189

Aside from the physical movements associated with Irimi, I was taught it was almost like a pre-empt. movement. For instance, you seen someone moving to grab a tanto (knife) from their belt. You "enter" into their "sphere" (body space, for want of a cruder explanation) and seixe their wrist before they take out the knife. Although I "entered" his space, and grabbed his wrist, he attacked first due to his intent (trying to take out a knife). It is a key idea of Aiki as I understand it.

It's hard to explain without starting another thread entirely! Would be a good discussion for the Aikido forum!

Don't know if that is the term you were looking for overall though???
Posted by: harlan

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 05/23/08 12:55 PM

Thank you...that was very interesting. I came across another term in conjunction with 'irimi' and that was 'tenkan'. Am reading on it. I do think it is basically the same idea...but done differently than the Aikido samples I see.

Lacking common terms, I can give one example. There is a drill we do...call it 'sun/moon block' for now. Two hands/arms...like a double muwashi. One can use the first muwashi as a block moving in, and the second muwashi to diplace the opponent at an angle.

Is there a 'chinese' version of this concept of 'irimi'?

thank you.
Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 05/23/08 06:06 PM

Tenkan in Aikido is( again this is a very crude explanation!) a 180 degree turn. Tori (the person being attacked) absorbs uke's (the attacker) attack.

It was like Nishio sensei said in the Irimi Nage clip: In Aikido, the force isn't blocked or stopped, its taken in a different way i.e. redirected.

In Tenkan, the movement is taken the direction it is going then redirected. In the below example, Yamada Sensei shows the Tenkan at around 00:10. Uke (attacker) is moving his left arm forward. That is the direction of the attack and his movement. So Yamada Sensei uses Tenkan to keep that movement going (while avoiding the attack) and then using that movement to re-direct the attack. Hope that makes sense!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wgc25csUSMA

On a non-Aikido note, found another clip, don't know if this is what you are referring to (sorry I don't know much about karate!):

Keinosuke Eneoda, Shotokan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v38XQJgK7W0
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 05/23/08 06:50 PM

Hi harlan.

Just as your posted video shows, it isn't just aikido that use the term irimi. I wouldn't get too tied up with aikido's term because their irimi is quite specific and involves a series of movements.

"Irimi" just means "entering" and goes back to both 'ti'/'tode' and Japanese arts such as kenjutsu and jujutsu. Tenkan is really just irimi + a turn. Again, in aikido the concept is more elaborate (I'm not being critical, just that this would be a very crude description of aikido's sequence of moves and their concept).

Your posted video shows 'ura irimi' which is an application of the opening move of naihanchi shodan.

On the other hand saifa uses standard 'irmi' as do other Okinawan kata.

Both occur in the Chinese arts, particularly the internal arts but also some Shaolin. Here's me in around 2000 demonstrating irimi from Hong Yi Xiang's form "Shaolin Peng":


I actually don't know the Chinese term (they aren't big on naming individual applications of forms), but people like Tim Cartmell are experts at it (he is a bagua/taiji practitioner who is also an experienced full-contact fighter in the Orient).

Have a look at our touxing forms - a collection of qin-na 'irimi' of the kind people like Cartmell utilise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiUaVspH3TA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B56GG6bCdVU
Posted by: chofukainoa

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 05/23/08 09:14 PM

I'm glad you posted about this--i was wondering what other people called it too. In motobu udundi, my sensei has always just called it "ayumi" or walking, along with the other walking techniques. Our really basic one is one diagonal step to enter, one continuing step to unbalance, and then a step at 90 degrees to take down or throw. This is the same walking pattern that shows up in okinawan dance, which has led to a lot of speculation...
Posted by: harlan

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 05/23/08 09:36 PM

Thank you, all for replying. Irimi, kuzushi, ayumi...yep...that's it. With or without throws, turns, or strikes...that's it.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 05/23/08 09:49 PM

Quote:

Keinosuke Eneoda, Shotokan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v38XQJgK7W0



That is exactly what I was referring to.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 06/12/08 08:47 PM

Quote:

There really is no sense of force. I can't find the term 'irimi' associated with karate on the forums (yet). I suppose this video touches on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrYKn7Rtkwg

What I can understand of this mechanic so far, is it's part of blocking, unbalancing, and redirecting the other person...they just go flying if you get the angles right.

There's a lot more to it than that...

MattJ mentioned "launching" your mass to occupy your opponent's space.... which is a good idea to generally think about, but it can be far more subtle and sophisticated than that. For example, simply stepping into the space that your opponent is about to occupy, just as they're about to place their foot...

There's a reason for all those "wrist manipulations" in Aikido... and equally so for those unrealistic "wrist grabs"... it's all about irimi... enter and walk thru...

And if you get it right, they'll bounce right off you as soon as they try to grab you, with no sense of force on your part.

Why the other day, as I was demonstrating one of those unrealistic wrist grab and manipulation techniques... my wife came in to grab my extended wrist, and at that precise moment, I turned to scowl at one of the kids who was not paying attention, and before I could turn to look at my wife, who happened to be charging into me like a freight train (as always), she bounced right off my wrist, sprained her wrist and fell back 4 feet....

Irimi... kuzushi on contact... all without me even moving or doing anything.

Posted by: harlan

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 06/12/08 08:50 PM

Jokester.

Thanks for popping in and contributing. I will definitely ask to work on this particular aspect of bunkai next week.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 06/12/08 08:59 PM

Sorry... I just realized this was asked in the Karate forum and my reply may have come across as somewhat Aikido-centric. Not that it is nor was intended... the concept of irimi, or entering into your opponent/opponent's space is applicable to many arts....

Step and slide... step and slide...
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 06/12/08 09:26 PM

Hi Harlan

Something to note is that the key to irimi of the kind pictured above is the "C" back which is central to the internal arts (and aikido, for that matter). However, the opposite is true in the "ura irimi shown by Tim Cartmell here at 0:22 to 0:25: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuP6cApKAD8 (ura irimi is the "inverted" version of normal irimi).

Chofukainoa - what you wrote was very interesting:

Quote:

In motobu udundi, my sensei has always just called it "ayumi" or walking, along with the other walking techniques. Our really basic one is one diagonal step to enter, one continuing step to unbalance, and then a step at 90 degrees to take down or throw.



My internal Chinese martial arts applies the same principle - take a look at the diagonal steps etc. in the links to the forms under my picture of irimi (ayumi) above.

The name "ayumi" literally means, as you have said, "walking" (eg. "ayumi ashi" is the normal step, as opposed to, say, "suri ashi" or sliding step). It is for this reason that I prefer "irimi" to describe the concept of "entering" another's space - it is more specific. Otherwise you are correct in the sense that it is a "walking" movement.

I'd absolutely love to see/train in motobu udundi, btw. It seems like a fascinating art - right up my alley, so to speak.

Eyrie - you said:

Quote:

There's a reason for all those "wrist manipulations" in Aikido... and equally so for those unrealistic "wrist grabs"... it's all about irimi... enter and walk thru...



While I agree with the thrust of your comment, I don't think that wrist grabs are quite so unrealistic as people will popularly say nowadays. If you look at our sparring video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tL9rGeKZGU you'll see lots of wrist grabs applied offensively (to trap, control, throw, etc.). If they are applied offensively then you can use escapes against them defensively. I'm not sure if there are in any in the video, but I apply kote gaeshi, for example, routinely in fast free sparring. I think the reason you don't see grabs in free fighting is the same reason you don't see deflections: People might train them as basics, but never apply them on the floor.

In my experience, you can't do a form or basics and expect the techniques to magically appear in your sparring... That is why we have methods to transition from one to the other (randori, embu - our 2 person forms, etc.).
Posted by: harlan

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 06/12/08 09:52 PM

I think Eyrie was being a little 'tongue in cheek' about the wrist grabs. A little site history...;)

thanks, again, guys for adding to the thread.
Posted by: chofukainoa

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 06/13/08 10:48 AM

It's interesting that my instructors never use the term "irimi", though I know what it means. I get the feeling they want "ayumi" to be understood as a natural extension of walking. Breaking it down into parts might imply a dissection of motion, whereas we are continually taught to think of everything as one motion. Even the three-step pattern I mentioned is meant to be only a component of a continuous walk, which isn't really supposed to end at the end of practice. I know that sounds weird.

Anyway, it's also interesting that you brought up "suri ashi", which a lot of people mistakenly use when beginning training. The technique in udundi is actually "tachuugwa", walking on the balls of the feet with the heels raised, knees straight, but not sliding along the floor as in kendo. Beginners like me tend to overdo it, but advanced practitioners can do it without looking unnatural.
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 06/13/08 11:12 AM

I've seen this concept referred to as "driving".
Posted by: harlan

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 06/13/08 11:55 AM

Nope...doesn't sound weird at all. My own instructor is extremly anti-segmentation of motion, 'techniques', etc. To the point teaching with the emphasis on no-labels.

Quote:

It's interesting that my instructors never use the term "irimi", though I know what it means. I get the feeling they want "ayumi" to be understood as a natural extension of walking. Breaking it down into parts might imply a dissection of motion, whereas we are continually taught to think of everything as one motion. Even the three-step pattern I mentioned is meant to be only a component of a continuous walk, which isn't really supposed to end at the end of practice. I know that sounds weird.

Anyway, it's also interesting that you brought up "suri ashi", which a lot of people mistakenly use when beginning training. The technique in udundi is actually "tachuugwa", walking on the balls of the feet with the heels raised, knees straight, but not sliding along the floor as in kendo. Beginners like me tend to overdo it, but advanced practitioners can do it without looking unnatural.

Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 06/14/08 10:09 PM

Yes - the moves must connect seamlessly. I can see well why someone might call it simply "ayumi".

See my previously posted form: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B56GG6bCdVU at points 0:18 to 0:20 and 0:23 to 0:24 and note the diagonal step followed by the "irimi" - all flowing one into another. Without the flow, it simply doesn't work.

I filmed the applicatons after class yesterday: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm2f66OkUOM at 0:47 onwwards. It's bit messier than I would have wanted, but Jed (my attacker) isn't very compliant (which is good!).
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 06/15/08 01:37 AM

Quote:

It's interesting that my instructors never use the term "irimi", though I know what it means. I get the feeling they want "ayumi" to be understood as a natural extension of walking.

Well, there's a difference between ayumi 歩み and irimi 入身 - to step or walk vs "enter(ing)/entrance (into) body" which connotates something else altogether... in that you don't necessarily have to physically step in to "enter".

Perhaps it's a play on words - a pun (which the Japanese are fond of)... especially considering the whole Oomoto-kyo connection thing and Onisaburo's interest in chinkon kishin "spirit possession".
Posted by: chofukainoa

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 06/18/08 05:54 AM

Eyrie,

Then I don't think we do "irimi" as such. Just two days ago, my shihan was explaining to me how "everything is ayumi." For him, it is a more inclusive term than just meaning to step or walk.

Dan,

Messy is good and real. Your vids are always interesting. Some differences I see in your applications are that my instructors would probably attack the face or neck with the hand that "enters" first. The second hand is usually interpreted as the "safety" in case the first hand fails. "Ayumi" would come into play in regards to takedown--I would probably be told to "keep walking" rather than rely on upper body strength for the first one you show. My sensei is also very picky about us using "ayumi" footwork when we do the second takedown you show. But the reality in sparring is probably quite close to what you've posted. I'm also just talking "different" not "better"!

See what you think for yourself here
Enbu punches are usually straight jabs, but we also train against swinging/hooking punches, as you showed.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 06/18/08 11:37 AM

Quote:

Some differences I see in your applications are that my instructors would probably attack the face or neck with the hand that "enters" first.



As would I - the entering hand is actually an attack, but I erred on the side of caution and pulled it out because I didn't feel my control was that good on the day - I've been a bit out of practice due to extended illness. I went for a "soft" option, prompting some on other threads not to "flame" me for not using a more effective counter - I was principally illustrating the deflection leading into the enter.

Quote:

The second hand is usually interpreted as the "safety" in case the first hand fails. "Ayumi" would come into play in regards to takedown--I would probably be told to "keep walking" rather than rely on upper body strength for the first one you show.



That's what I meant by messy. I wanted to keep walking, but Jed felt like a brick wall that day so I had to put some more oomph into it. Normally the "C" back and the "walk" through works a treat - almost no force required at all.

Quote:

My sensei is also very picky about us using "ayumi" footwork when we do the second takedown you show. But the reality in sparring is probably quite close to what you've posted. I'm also just talking "different" not "better"!



Indeed - the footwork here is of Chinese origin and is also very specific. I lost my own posture a little at the end (also messy) but again, Jed wasn't primed at all and is non-compliant. And I'm always up for a challenge! I don't want to post something on the net where it's obvious I've chosen an easy target. I take the same approach to demonstrating to the class - if it fails, I learn.

Quote:

See what you think for yourself here
Enbu punches are usually straight jabs, but we also train against swinging/hooking punches, as you showed.



Fascinating videos - absolutely loved them, particularly the first one. Very direct and simple entry, very practical approach and quite refreshingly different. This is the first Motobu-ryu I've seen, so thank you.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 06/18/08 08:27 PM

Quote:

Then I don't think we do "irimi" as such. Just two days ago, my shihan was explaining to me how "everything is ayumi." For him, it is a more inclusive term than just meaning to step or walk.

Or we might not be talking about the same thing... or are we? When you say "more inclusive"... what else would that term encompass? By saying "everything is ayumi", what was he implying?
Posted by: chofukainoa

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 06/20/08 11:38 AM

Heck, if i knew that i'd be a shihan myself. But looking at various defs of irimi
and a narrow def of ayumi as a "crossing step", maybe i understand more how the terminology i've been taught is different.

My shihan describes "ayumi" variously a tactic (a natural-looking walking movement so as not to give one's intentions away) and a technique (to use the momentum of the entire body to power strikes and takedowns). So instead of "ayumi" being one technique and "irimi" another, all techniques are defined as extensions of "ayumi".

On some level, it is just a difference of naming conventions, but i also think it is supposed to be psychological. Perhaps the intent is to resist labeling and therefore distinguishing different techniques (so much of what I am taught is just called "this"), which i believe is done in other arts (particularly Chinese) as well. It may be a way of training reflexive responses instead of "kamae, enter, block, counter, takedown, stop, rest". But guess what i am still doing.

Don't ask me to explain much more. Totally at my limit of understanding here.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 06/23/08 07:26 PM

I promise I won't But now that you've thought about it... perhaps you could ask your shihan to clarify.
Posted by: chofukainoa

Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' - 06/24/08 09:45 PM

Thing is, it probably wouldn't clarify anything even if i asked him "what do you mean by 'everything is ayumi'". He'd show me examples (again) and explain (again) but I can't really get all the nuances and be able to relate it in English until I have more experience.

Anyway, I'm not sure the OP was really asking about a specific technique like irimi. I wouldn't say to call "walking through" "ayumi". It just seems to be the term we use for what she was asking about.