Shotokan - Etiquette

Posted by: LeeF

Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 08:31 AM

What would the proper etiquette be, if another black belt (same dan) walked into your dojo, but he had more years experience than yourself?

Here's my dilemma.

I've been training almost all my life, save 6 years. I've had my Shodan since 2000. In looking for a place to train, BrianS gave me the name of a local dojo. The issue is, the Sensei (a Shodan as well) has only been training in martial arts for less time than I've held my Shodan (white to black in 3 years), and I'm being treated like a student(disciplined, shown bad attitude). It's been made clear that I'm not looking for instruction at the moment, just somewhere to train if even alone just for the room.

Now, I am almost 20 years younger, but that shouldn't mean anything, correct? Seniority is by kyu then time at kyu, right?

Any input is appreciated, good or bad.

Thank you, everyone.
Posted by: Barad

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 08:40 AM

White to black belt in 3 years and running his own club? Unless he is truly very impressive, why would you want to train there anyway? Should shodans be teaching at all? Not generally IMO.

That said, it is his club and presumably you are either part of the class taught by him or not (unless he is generous enough to give you some space on your own) so if you don't like it and even if he could be a bit more sensitive to your own experience you walk, surely...

B.
Posted by: LeeF

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 08:54 AM

Not impressive.

Don't usually teach, no; although I've been asked by several peers for basic training. Haven't yet, but they've asked quite a bit and my Sensei said it's ok.

I understand it's the Sensei's dojo, and I more than likely will walk as I'm not trying to take over anyones dojo, just train. But I do know, it is utterly disrespectful to correct a higher rank than yourself.

I'm just not sure how seniority works, in this case.

Thank you for your input!!

Lee
Posted by: harlan

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 08:58 AM

I thought Shotokan etiquette was basically the same as any other karate...in that whenever you walk into a new dojo...you are white belt. If not a white belt mentally, expect some conflicts/issues to arise.
Posted by: LeeF

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 09:02 AM

Then everytime Master Okano stepped into my dojo he was a white belt?

I know that when I went into Kenpo, I started as white belt, as well as Ninjutsu. Dojo to dojo in the same style, rank is honored.
Posted by: Barad

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 09:08 AM

I have always found that approach (white belt all over again) a bit strange in practice. Rob Redmond (24 Fighting Chickens) used the analogy of a degree or doctorate issued by a reputable university. If you go elsewhere to research, your qualification is not treated as if it was never awarded. I tend to agree with him that the same should apply to reputable karate grades and that a bit of common sense probably helps...

In practice why make someone with some skills start at the bottom again except for reasons of ego and politics, which seem to permeate many martial arts. My experience is that blackbelts from elsewhere tend to wait to be told where to go as putting yourself at the head of a line is a bit presumptious but I have never seen blackbelts from elsewhere in the same or a similar art (eg Wado and Shotokan) actually told to train as white belts.

B.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 09:09 AM

My mistake. I thought you were there asking for something...not to teach. Personally, I respect seniority..especially when it's backed up with skill.

Quote:

Then everytime Master Okano stepped into my dojo he was a white belt?



Posted by: LeeF

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 09:10 AM

That is a great analogy, Barad.

Lee
Posted by: Barad

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 09:13 AM

Not mine though-Fighting Chickens website is well worth a look for some alternative views on Shotokan by a highly graded practicioner who spent a while training in Japan.

B
Posted by: LeeF

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 09:16 AM

Not to teach, or learn, just train. Somewhere that had room for me to train.

I was asked to help teach. Still hesitant on that part, though.
Quote:

My mistake. I thought you were there asking for something...not to teach. Personally, I respect seniority..especially when it's backed up with skill.




Barad-
I'll have to give it a look, thanks!
Posted by: cxt

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 10:10 AM

Leef

Tough situation...being better than the person teaching the class.......a situation which BTW, if you training long enough someone is probably going to walk into your dojo and be better than you...or think they are.

The guy my resent your skills or he might have picked up on you less than steller opinion of his own talents. Or he might just kinda suck----does not sound like he has had much training.

The real question is what to do now.
Posted by: oldman

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 10:11 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDxA8-01cp4&feature=related
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 11:11 AM

Leef-

I am not a Shotokan guy so maybe it's different, but unless his school is part of your school, you hold no rank in his Dojo unless he grants it to you.

Sounds as if you walked into his house and are upset you can't do what you want and you get upset when he trys to enforce his rules.

Even a visiting Master Rank can't walk in univited and expect respect be given his rank unless he is somehow a part of that school, even if it's the same system.

Personally I visted many schools over the years, some places welcome me as a visiting BB, some ask me to wear a white belt. Even if it's the same or similar system. I humblely and repectfully honor the instructors wishes, regardless of how I judged their skill.

My reaction to your question is you should find another place to train because it sounds like you are introducing tension into someone elses Dojo.

-Kimo
Posted by: LeeF

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 11:23 AM

Quote:

Leef-

I am not a Shotokan guy so maybe it's different, but unless his school is part of your school, you hold no rank in his Dojo unless he grants it to you.

Sounds as if you walked into his house and are upset you can't do what you want and you get upset when he trys to enforce his rules.

Even a visiting Master Rank can't walk in univited and expect respect be given his rank unless he is somehow a part of that school, even if it's the same system.

Personally I visted many schools over the years, some places welcome me as a visiting BB, some ask me to wear a white belt. Even if it's the same or similar system. I humblely and repectfully honor the instructors wishes, regardless of how I judged their skill.

My reaction to your question is you should find another place to train because it sounds like you are introducing tension into someone elses Dojo.

-Kimo




Kimo,
I understand what you are saying, completely. It was my understanding, at the beginning, that my rank was welcomed as I was told I was higher ranked (by experience) and asked to assist, teach and provide my input. I went to the dojo in search of an indoor environment for solo training, and was asked to attend the regular classes for the above mentioned reasons.

If I attended the classes to learn, it would be different, but I attend because I was asked to. Would that not be an acknowledgement of rank? You can't acknowledge only some of the rank; i.e. my holding a Shodan rank, but disregard my years of experience.

I'm currently setting appointments to meet with other dojos/locations about possibly renting their space for solo training. I don't want this to happen again. If I intend to teach, I'll open my own dojo, and not till at least Sandan ranking.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 11:29 AM

It does sound disengenuous on the part of the sensei...like he is of two minds about it; he 'said' it was okay to train solo...but really wants to have you join (and be under him). Is he very 'business' oriented?

If you want to solo train...why not just join a gym for the facilities?
Posted by: student_of_life

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 11:30 AM

what have you got against training his dojo anyway? just because your a higher rank means you can't attend his class? if he offers any pointers on your technique, so what? god knows i love to hear advice from anyone. and if anything it would give you a chance to get in a sweat for a couple hours a week, and you could work kihon or kumite with any of the guys in the class. if you don't feel comfortable with the pointers that he dose offer, just smile and say thanks, and continue to do your own thing.

its not like he's offending some sacred shodan law.
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 11:35 AM

Quote:

It was my understanding, at the beginning, that my rank was welcomed as I was told I was higher ranked (by experience) and asked to assist, teach and provide my input.




Leef-

I guess I misunderstood the situation, and yes it is a bit concerning that a person with 3 years experience is correcting someone of a higher rank, much less running a Dojo.

As for yourself, I understand why you would want to wait until Sandan to open your own school, but if you have an opportunity to teach, you should. Just have your Sensei oversee things and from time to time monitor the training.

Unless of course you have no desire to teach.
Posted by: LeeF

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 11:37 AM

Pointers are welcome, criticism and attitude are not. Criticism and attitude when I offer pointers (as asked) is not welcome.

I've nothing against training with the class, I'm just saying that I wasn't in search of a class to train with, so I didn't walk in as a student and present myself as a teacher. I walked in looking for a location for solo training and was asked to assist with the classes.

Local gyms are skeptical and iffy, except one. That one, I'm waiting for them to finish building the center down the road from me.

I've decided, no more training at this dojo. It's too complicated of a situation.
Posted by: JasonM

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 11:40 AM

hhm, unless I am unclear, why don't you just train at home or the local park if you only seek solo training.
Posted by: student_of_life

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 11:42 AM

i hear what your saying. if your looking to do your own thing, best not to get roped into extra responsibilities. good luck with your training, i hope you find a spot.
Posted by: LeeF

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 11:45 AM

Quote:

hhm, unless I am unclear, why don't you just train at home or the local park if you only seek solo training.



Weather.

It's Arkansas. "Don't like the weather? Wait 5 minutes."

Seriously, yesterday it was partly cloudy, then a sprinkle, then hail, then sunny, all in the course of an hour.

I've found other options, but it's still eating at me.
Posted by: JasonM

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 11:49 AM

c'mon, work on those blocks against the hail..lol

I hear ya though. MY wife is from Arkansas..and not to mention the heat...
Posted by: LeeF

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/23/08 11:51 AM

That's some fast and precisely accurate blocking.

Hafta try it.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/24/08 08:15 AM

Leef,

Sounds like there is some disrespect coming from this dojo. It seems it was made clear what you wanted,but it conflicts with what the sensei there wants or is best for his business/school.

I wouldn't train there anymore either.

Why not take up judo at the Jones center? Classes are Wed. 6-8pm and Sat 11-1pm. I have found it rewarding and fun,but it hurts,lol.

If you need a training partner I'm still availiable. Just pm me and we can schedule something regular if only once a month.
You are also welcome to join us in Ft.Smith at the Ft.Smith Fight Club. We have plenty of mat room and there is no fee or expectations,just training.

Nice to see someone else is getting the taste of McDojoism in Northwest AR, it's rampant, lol!!

B
Posted by: student_of_life

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/24/08 02:45 PM

this is why i hate living in newfondland, no one to train with.....
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/24/08 04:13 PM

Leef I think you need to sit down with this Instructor and ask him how can you help him. Discuss what you would like to do train by yourself and have someone to train with. As ShotoKan exponents there shouldn't be a lot of difference in the lesson plan.

If he wants you to help he will tell you. If he wants you to start coming before or after class so you can train together he will tell you. If he wants you to leave he wil tell you.

If he wants you to start over as white belt and can't show or tell you why, I'd walk. Don't waste your time if he can't enhance your skills. Surlly empty your cup, but not if his cup is more empty then yours.

Sounds like he doesn't respect you in my day that meant crossing swords or me leaving his dojo. Usually after crossing swords/Sparring respect is developed and maintained and its still his dojo. But watch the respect given both ways now.

Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/24/08 05:48 PM

Hello Leef:

What attitude are you being given ?

Why on earth would you walk through "my door" (sic. wearing your shodan) without having a lengthy talk with me first??? If you are using my space, Mark's space, Ed's space, whomever's a certain deference, and earnestness would be mandatory.... if, if you want to use our respective space, I would think?

Am I missing something?
Jeff
Posted by: LeeF

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/24/08 05:54 PM

Quote:

Leef I think you need to sit down with this Instructor and ask him how can you help him. Discuss what you would like to do train by yourself and have someone to train with. As ShotoKan exponents there shouldn't be a lot of difference in the lesson plan.

If he wants you to help he will tell you. If he wants you to start coming before or after class so you can train together he will tell you. If he wants you to leave he wil tell you.

If he wants you to start over as white belt and can't show or tell you why, I'd walk. Don't waste your time if he can't enhance your skills. Surlly empty your cup, but not if his cup is more empty then yours.

Sounds like he doesn't respect you in my day that meant crossing swords or me leaving his dojo. Usually after crossing swords/Sparring respect is developed and maintained and its still his dojo. But watch the respect given both ways now.





We did sit down and talk, after most every class. I was asked to speak up at any given point to offer my opinion.

We have sparred, and I've held back a lot. The sensei is very experienced in tournament point fighting, whereas I trained exclusively in full contact kumite. So it's difficult to tell who is better. Who gets more points or who does more damage? I've kicked 'im back 5 feet or so with a simple thrust kick, visa versa I was tapped in the back of the head with a hook kick (we weren't taught those). I wouldn't know how to call it.

There is a huge difference in teaching styles, which has bugged me for a while. I was taught very strict, very disciplined, don't move unless you're told to. They're very...NOT. Always jumping and moving around, not making eye contact, TALKING, etc. Yeah...no.

On my own, I go. Time to clean out the garage, build me a makiwara and mook-jong.

Brian, when I get it setup, you're more than welcome to come by!
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/24/08 06:05 PM

Absolutely!
Posted by: student_of_life

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/24/08 06:08 PM

*note to self, summer project-build a wooden dummy.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/24/08 07:25 PM

Quote:

*note to self, summer project-build a wooden dummy.




How about adding moving to civilization?
Posted by: student_of_life

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/24/08 08:29 PM

bullocks to that! i'll live on a moutian and train like a real karate-ka!
Posted by: LeeF

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/25/08 08:16 AM

Quote:

Hello Leef:

What attitude are you being given ?

Why on earth would you walk through "my door" (sic. wearing your shodan) without having a lengthy talk with me first??? If you are using my space, Mark's space, Ed's space, whomever's a certain deference, and earnestness would be mandatory.... if, if you want to use our respective space, I would think?

Am I missing something?
Jeff



Sorr for not responding earlier, I missed your post as you posted it while I was typing my last response.

We did sit down and have a lengthy conversation about what I wanted and what was asked/wanted of me. I know better than to just walk into someones dojo and expect to be held in high regard, yeah right.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 04/30/08 11:19 PM

Don't dissappear on me again Leland!!

Posted by: LeeF

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 05/01/08 08:22 AM

Oh, I'm here!

Slowly cleanin' out the garage, gettin the wood together for the dummy.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 05/01/08 06:08 PM

Quote:

Oh, I'm here!

Slowly cleanin' out the garage, gettin the wood together for the "dummy."




Are you referring to me?
Posted by: LeeF

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 05/03/08 08:49 AM

Haha.

I've been readin and thinkin. Looked at a LOT of Mook-Jong plans, and they all seem very similar, put the upper arms like this, the middle here, the leg here, it should slide like this, yada yada.

What if I put it on a swivel and mirror the 'arms and leg' to the other side as well. Strike/block one side and spins around to 'attack' you. Possible mount the swivel on the slides, so it still slide back and forth?

Also, since I have plenty of plywood at my disposal, what about layering that and planing it out so it's a cylinder. Birch 13-ply strong enough?'

Thoughts?
Posted by: jude33

Re: Shotokan - Etiquette - 05/03/08 09:59 AM

Quote:

bullocks to that! i'll live on a moutian and train like a real karate-ka!
this is why i hate living in newfondland, no one to train with





plenty of trees.
Didnt Masutatsu Oyama live and train in the mountains?
Part of his art was shotokan.
Yep, some top karate ka train with trees.
Run through the woods.
Use trees for conditioning.
Although some run barefooted on sand and a harder surface.

To many splinters running in woods bare footed I should imagine.


Etc Etc. I suppose if a person lives where there are wild bears, hunters and things, a person gets quick at running.




For urban dwellers and people who dont care for trees. I think dummys/ makiwari/ bags are good for basics with solo training.





Jude