Kyusho Jutsu
Posted by: Nsih
Kyusho Jutsu - 04/19/08 08:29 AM
Is it effective? Many have said that the pressure points utilized in it do not work in a real fight.. also, what's the difference between Kyusho jutsu and Kyusho Jutsu (Ryukyu Kempo) ?
there a preasre point section on the forum that would be better able to answer thisw kind of stuff. and yes it can be very "effective", ever see mike tyson hit someone on the jaw?
Posted by: Barad
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/21/08 08:23 AM
A lot of the points work very well if you can hit them. So "in a real fight, can you hit them?" might be more appropriate question...
Agree, see the pressure point forum if the door has not rusted shut from lack of use...
B.
Posted by: underdog
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/21/08 08:56 AM
It takes MUCH more training than merely knowing where the points are to use them effectively in motion. WITH the proper training, including lots and lots of time hitting people and getting hit in return, the skill can be acquired. It can not be learned just from a video or book.
The door is rusting on the PP forum because nearly all threads get hijacked by people who think the subject is TOO controversial to discuss without a library of proof even in it's own dedicated PP forum.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/21/08 12:44 PM
Thanks for the education-I have been training in kyusho jitsu as part of karate for a good few years and not from a book...I am well aware of its limitations and practicalities.
B.
Posted by: underdog
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/21/08 02:29 PM
Very good. I don't know with whom you are training or what teaching techniques, but stick to them. My humble opinion says PP has value. Pain makes believers.
I don't post new topics on the PP forum in fightingarts. I use 2 other PP forums where there are more PP practitioners and the atmosphere is friendlier towards people who value this art. Sometimes I'll get into a thread that someone else starts here, but I leave the discussion when the trolls take over.
If you are here and other practitioners hang around, maybe we can reclaim our forum here.
didn't there sed to be a point of the week thread? i know im a bit of a horses arse sometimes, but i do enjoy reading what informed people have to say.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/22/08 05:36 AM
I am not at all negative on PPs. I was practicing them (amongst other things) to great effect last night. However I think they call for a lot of skill at hitting resisting, moving people before they are usable. Unfortunately they are often treated as a magic bullet by many people I have come across who seem to consider deep knowledge of the theory of where and how to hit a compliant partner as sufficient.
I train within Kissaki.
B.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/22/08 05:55 AM
Quote:
Very good. I don't know with whom you are training or what teaching techniques, but stick to them. My humble opinion says PP has value. Pain makes believers.
I don't post new topics on the PP forum in fightingarts. I use 2 other PP forums where there are more PP practitioners and the atmosphere is friendlier towards people who value this art. Sometimes I'll get into a thread that someone else starts here, but I leave the discussion when the trolls take over.
If you are here and other practitioners hang around, maybe we can reclaim our forum here.
That would be interesting.
Here is what I know of pressure points.
The striking of pressure points for the use against an attacker should the attack justify the use of..
The jaw as stated somewhere I wouldnt consider as pure pressure point study as it is in the main a general target area that if struck normaly results in a ko. In most cases it would be difficult to connect as it is with out being realy specific as to where contact is made.
The forearms if struck hard enough can go numb.
The thigh area ditto.
Joints can be struck as opposed to submission techniques.
Back/ front/ side of the neck is another point that can have the desired effect.
Other than chokes arm bars etc thats it.
Ps,Its up to you but I would be inclined to (we can reclaim our forum here. ) ignore the trolls but if somethings sometimes get to be
unrealistic then I suppose trolling can be expected.
Jude
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/22/08 08:02 AM
I don't have a problem with pressure point study. Delayed touch/NTKO is a whole other can of worms. I also don't consider asking for proof to be "trolling". Stonewalling questions is closer to trolling, IMHO.
Posted by: Mark Hill
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/22/08 08:45 AM
First of all, you don't need laserlike precision for kyusho to work. Secondly, nerve, pressure and other "point" striking of vulnerable or important organs and manipulation of physiology to make an opponent more vulnerable to attack should always be used. Thirdly, kyusho is oftne used in self defence common with jujutsu where you are seized, thus offering up stable and open targets.
there are about a half dozen or more points along the jaw that are considered preasure points, jude. the ko effect from a shot to the jaw results from a nerve being pinched when its struck. another way to ko someone is you simply smash them in the noggen, it also results from slips and falls, when the head is struck hard enough to shake the brain into contact with the inside of the skull wall.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/22/08 12:40 PM
Quote:
there are about a half dozen or more points along the jaw that are considered preasure points, jude. the ko effect from a shot to the jaw results from a nerve being pinched when its struck.
That is for certain people far, far to technical. When the fur is flying between an attacker and a defender depending on the nature of the attack, to my mind any k.o would result from the jaw bone being smashed. But I suppose that is depedent on the defenders training.
Quote:
another way to ko someone is you simply smash them in the noggen, it also results from slips and falls, when the head is struck hard enough to shake the brain into contact with the inside of the skull wall.
Smashing noggens in a none weapon defence as in if you mean the head of an attacker would be with soft tissue eg forearm, bottom of foot/ shoe so perhaps not realy enough blunt power for k.o. Should an attackers or even defenders head bouncing/ bounced off hard floor/ against a hard a surface does get the effects you described.
I think with certain things, particuler pressure points study different peoples training methods need to taken in to account.
Jude
"That is for certain people far, far to technical. When the fur is flying between an attacker and a defender depending on the nature of the attack, to my mind any k.o would result from the jaw bone being smashed. But I suppose that is depedent on the defenders training."
well, im only talking about hitting someone straight on the chin, which pushes the jaw back into the head, theres a nerve between the jaw bone and the skull where it connects, and when it gets shoved back from a straight punch it pinches this nerve and its lights out for a second. a very long, painfull second. i don't think a straight punch on the point of the chin is too much to ask a karate man to do.
"I think with certain things, particuler pressure points study different peoples training methods need to taken in to account."
i always aim for "weak spots" when striking, you get more bang for your buck/round house kick, lol.
Posted by: Raul Perez
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/22/08 03:08 PM
Nsih,
Kyusho Jutsu is the method if attacking the vital points on the human body.
Ryukyu Kempo is really split between Oyata's group (the originator of the system) and George Dillman's camp (with offshoots from Dillman).
From this point forward I will discuss Ryukyu Kempo in Oyata's Lineage as this is what I train in:
Oyata's Ryukyu Kempo can be split into 3 section: Tuite Jitsu (joint locks), Kyusho Jitsu (vital point strikes) and Atemi Jitsu (distracting blows which weaken the body). All sections are taught to blend into each other as one single unit.
Kyusho Jitsu was a seemingly "lost" art which was re-introduced primarily by Oyata and Hohan Soken (although there were others out there) through a series of seminars.
In my opinion Oyata's version of Kyusho Jitsu is more realistic when compared to others who use Kyusho Jitsu being the fact that once it is learned you are taught to use it in a more full contact arena (Bogu Kumite). Others that I've seen tend to use a more static approach, which in my opinion, leads to false confidence in the true technique against a moving opponent. Of course I am biased due to the fact that I've been training this system for 12 years.
Side Note: Noticed that I've been quoted based on a previous post LMAO I am honored!
Posted by: underdog
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/22/08 07:23 PM
That is my understanding as well. Thank you.
For those who wonder about training in motion, it is like other learning. You learn from the known to the related unknown. While a person may begin training from a static posed situation, one moves on to more motion. Many expectations and rules change when there is motion.
This is not unlike other karate. Beginners may start training their wrist grab releases from a static stance concentrating on mechanically what happens in the hands. Eventually one needs to do the release in motion to get out of the way of a strike from the other hand... add counter... add ... add... according to your style.
Of course it takes years of training and I respect folks like Paul Perez who has 12 years invested. I do not have that. Is this any different from other aspects of karate? One does not become competant to defend against a real perpetrator in a few lessons or a few years. It takes many years.
Posted by: Zach_Zinn
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/22/08 07:49 PM
Raul, out of curiousity how can you practice kyusho through bogu gear? I remember a thread a number of years ago on e-budo where a student (I believe) of Oyata's argued the opposite, that kyusho itself needs to be done sans gear to know you are actually hitting correctly. His school did do alot of Bogu, they just didn't view the kyusho as being viable through the gear was my understanding. I could be misremembering though, was a long time ago.
Obviously Bogu kumite and similar does a ton for fighting ability, I just don't see how you'd really be hitting 'points' through all that thick-ass stuff, I own a set of Ryu te bogu gear myself and I can't see it helping me know whether or not i'm hitting a point, that stuff is freakin' sturdy.
What is the training method for kyusho in ryukyu kempo?
Posted by: Raul Perez
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/22/08 08:26 PM
Very few points obviously solar plexus, floating ribs, side of the jaw line stomach 5 <i think dont know the names>(i've dislocated a partner's jaw with a solid shot and had mine pop out too from a hard shot to the point) due to placement of the Men or helmet, forearm to the neck, radial nerve, and the side of the leg.
Those are the one's I've used successfully in my matches and I've had done to me as well. Bogu allows full contact blows to these areas without the fear of seriously injuring your partner. Notice the word seriously because you do get banged up, hurt, and occasionally injured.
Due to the equipment grab and rub points obviously cant be used... only strike points. That is what I meant and should have been more specific in my first post.
PS
Why do people keep calling me Paul lately? It's Raul... Paul with a woody as my father says
Posted by: Barad
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/23/08 07:56 AM
Just to butt in, I think it probably possible to train in armour-we were hammering away with the knees at Gall Bladder 31 on Monday (dead leg point on the middle outside thigh in English) and even through thigh pads, it still has a demonstrable effect where the strikes are at full power but the pads obviously allow us to keep training where bare attacks to the point are too incapacitating to do it for long.
B
Posted by: jude33
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/24/08 08:33 AM
Hi
The information has been given as requested.
Jude
Posted by: jude33
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/24/08 08:41 AM
Quote:
Just to butt in, I think it probably possible to train in armour-we were hammering away with the knees at Gall Bladder 31 on Monday (dead leg point on the middle outside thigh in English) and even through thigh pads, it still has a demonstrable effect where the strikes are at full power but the pads obviously allow us to keep training where bare attacks to the point are too incapacitating to do it for long.
B
What kind of pads do you use? Are these the ones that a peson straps on to the thigh? We use a form of an airbag/ pad for knees and kicks with a partner practice. Hard though to use a specific target. Gall bladder 31? I tend to train with the mind set during controlled sparring of anywhere on thigh muscle is good.
Jude
Posted by: Neko456
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/24/08 09:46 AM
I believe its high level training and most Okinawan arts have this type training after you study the basic/Shodan and up they train this method. Some schools start before that and this type training is the basic of what they do after you develope some understanding of the basics.
Some believe that this level of training is what was left out of the Marines training or the Exported Karate. Others beleive that they tried to simplify it with just strike here and there, like statements instead of the five element concept. It is the near equal of Gung-fu's Dim Mak.
I believe that with use of breathing & this type striking/massage enhances your ability to damage or heal. I noticed that most systems have this as a method of study IndoAsia's Silat, China's Chunfa, Karate and Jujitsu.
Does pressure point striking work in heated situation, ever been hit in the temple or the tip of the chin gloved or barefisted. No question it works right the application is not complex the concept/study is. Now some points have to hit in combos of 3-5s to work on certain people but it definitely works.
IMHO.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/24/08 09:50 AM
Yes-strap on polystyrene type stuff. They seem to work pretty well and allow movement/sparring, not just holding a pad for someone to kick at leg height..
In my experience just hitting anywhere on the thigh does not do it. If you are stronger than the person you kick, it may well still move them or hurt but getting hit right on the point feels very different and is different in effect, in that people tend to drop immediately on the spot pretty much regardless of size. It seems to temporarily paralyse the leg causing collapse and is painful.
B
Posted by: jude33
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/24/08 10:01 AM
Quote:
Yes-strap on polystyrene type stuff. They seem to work pretty well.
Any links to photos?
Quote:
In my experience just hitting anywhere on the thigh does not do it.
In my experience with no pads it does. Using a standard thai pad on the thigh for a succession of training full hard kicks connecting with the shin is a big no no if the training partners want to stay upright and still be training partners.
Quote:
If you are stronger than the person you kick, it may well still move them or hurt but getting hit right on the point feels very different and is different in effect, in that people tend to drop immediately on the spot pretty much regardless of size. It seems to temporarily paralyse the leg causing collapse and is painful.
Even so that is what I would like to learn.
So how are you training it to be so specific ? Where do you get the charts from?
Jude
Posted by: Barad
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/24/08 10:59 AM
Jude,
I tend not to get photos taken of myself training (last one I can think of was circa 1987 doing a reverse roundhouse kick, something I would not waste my time on now) and I definitely do not post them on the web!
The attack to the thigh for us is either a Thai-style kick or a forward knee close up or a front heel kick toes pointing to the side (name ashi geri seen in Naihanchi/Tekki and in Wing Chun for example).
To learn kyusho jitsu, I would really recommend a teacher firstly to learn it properly (it is complex as others have said) and secondly for safety.
You can look at the points here:
http://www.bubishi.com/accupoint/KyushoHeadshots.htmlhttp://www.acuxo.com/meridianPictures.asp?point=CV22&meridian=Conception%20Vesselbut this will not usefully tell you how or where to strike. You can look up Gall Bladder 31 point on the second website though.
B
Posted by: Raul Perez
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/24/08 11:25 AM
Quote:
Jude,
I tend not to get photos taken of myself training (last one I can think of was circa 1987 doing a reverse roundhouse kick, something I would not waste my time on now) and I definitely do not post them on the web!
You're that UGLY huh? LOL couldn't resist
Posted by: jude33
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/24/08 11:26 AM
Quote:
Jude,
I tend not to get photos taken of myself training (last one I can think of was circa 1987 doing a reverse roundhouse kick, something I would not waste my time on now) and I definitely do not post them on the web!
Errm, Mr Barad. "nnnn" Sir!!
I meant a photo or a link to a photo of the thigh protection not of your good self. Not that I have anything against a photo of you but I meant the protective equipment you wear while training.
Quote:
The attack to the thigh for us is either a Thai-style kick or a forward knee close up or a
:
Ok what I use. Forward knee or thai style kick or certain strain karate kick its the same to me.
Quote:
front heel kick toes pointing to the side (name ashi geri seen in Naihanchi/Tekki and in Wing Chun for example).
:
What I know of but dont use. In training I use the heel to the knee front and back but never to the thigh. Going to look on you tube case someone recorded your gaffer.
To learn kyusho jitsu, I would really recommend a teacher firstly to learn it properly (it is complex as others have said) and secondly for safety.
Quote:
Will do one day but till then does your gaffer do seminars?
If so where? and I suppose a person has to be part of your organisation?
Quote:
http://www.bubishi.com/accupoint/KyushoHeadshots.html
http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPictures.asp?point=CV22&meridian=Conception%20Vessel
but this will not usefully tell you how or where to strike. You can look up Gall Bladder 31 point on the second website though.
B
Will have a look and no doubt have some questions.
Thanks Barad.
Jude
Posted by: jude33
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/24/08 11:31 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Jude,
I tend not to get photos taken of myself training (last one I can think of was circa 1987 doing a reverse roundhouse kick, something I would not waste my time on now) and I definitely do not post them on the web!
You're that UGLY huh? LOL couldn't resist
Yes Raul.
You did look good on your video as well as your techniques. But I guess Barad does as well. My art is practical and functional. I leave it to you good looking guys and the opposite gender to look good. Then I can watch in between training.
Jude
I presume you got the PM?
Posted by: Raul Perez
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/24/08 11:39 AM
yeah I got the PM. I'll respond after lunch after I fake some more work around here
Posted by: Barad
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/24/08 11:46 AM
Actually I just didn't want to overwhelm you with my physical beauty...
b.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/24/08 12:22 PM
Quote:
Actually I just didn't want to overwhelm you with my physical beauty...
b.
I dont mind but can you include the opposite gender as a training partner as well?.
Makes life more interesting..
Jude
Posted by: Raul Perez
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/24/08 12:40 PM
Quote:
Actually I just didn't want to overwhelm you with my physical beauty...
b.
As we say in NY, Shake what yo momma gave ya!
yeah I've officially de-railed this thread. Sorry, carry on.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/24/08 01:14 PM
Looks like either the point where the sciatic nerve or an artery runs under the muscle??.
Ok I can see your point but in a fur flying self defence situation then any specific target that small is going to be difficult to hit.
I suppose drilling to strike in a specific place might be one way of doing it.
Anyway I am going to reserve judgement untill I know a bit more about it.
If the protective gear you are using is good enough to stop damage that will be a bonus. Still cant imagine what it looks like
Jude
i think its worth pointing ot that "when the fur is flying" does not really tipify most self defence situations. if a self defence sitation carrys on for longer then it takes for someone to sucker punch you, then its a fight and not self defence. i don't mean to rear the "one punch ko" sh!te storm again, but i like paul vunak's concept of self defence. which is BAM, run. in other words pre-emtive striking makes hitting these points easier because there is no fur flying, just your victim standing in front of you thinking he has an advantage.
something to consider in favor of vital point striking.
*edit*
if you want to see what im talking about youtube oyata, alot of his demos begin facing someone with their arms down, and in a kind of quick draw type thing, when his attacker moves in to touch him, oyata digs in his little meat hooks and bodies hit the floor.
i teach old style jiu jitsu. mukashi no jutsu. the style includes pressure point atemi and some of the so called DIM MAK points. very effective and many are easily accessible.
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/24/08 07:26 PM
im of the opinion that to strike vunerable areas is clearly a good idea for effect, it's seen in combat sports and real life violence often. (a good clean shot always works)
however the skill is in the application against someone who is pumped up and in your face/attacking,
this is where many of the modern, expensive commercial groups fall down, kid themselves that their lethal and also kid the students, but its magic you see...........
and groups like Rauls, who practise Bogu really have the advantage, the application becomes live and requires experience and resilience to have effect. (often not in the boju gear, thats not the sole point, its tool development).
Any good Okinawan karate is full of Kyusho and Tuite (the older family systems more so),
granted Oyata Sensei really was and is the man in the public eye, but it is in all the systems via the classical kata, just gotta find it and work it.
I really struggle with many of the other organised PP groups to be honest, far to much science, bull and sales
not enough good, basic Karate training.
Another element is 'tool devleopment' delivered by traditional conditioning, done heavily it makes a REAL difference to strikes effect,
but that is a little hardcore for most including me, I work steady with this element.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/24/08 07:30 PM
I've found that pp study is not worth the time and effort. I mean I don't believe there are great benefits from it that are beyond theory when it comes to actual self defense application.
Posted by: Zach_Zinn
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/24/08 07:34 PM
My own 2 cents:
In the Goju i've benn taught using any kind of "nerve strike" is secondary to striking an actual vital point where you can likely cause anatomical damage.
Fas as pain compliance and nerve strikes I personally see them as an extra tool that might work in some situations, but definitely not something to be relied upon.
You can test the efficacy of just striking nerves on a variety of people and get reactions ranging from extreme pain to your partner laughing at you, due to lack of effect.
That alone is enough to make me feel they shouldn't be one's main target.
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/24/08 07:58 PM
get the adrenalin/fear running and them attacking you - then see how Kyusho works...........
It's a real skill/experience led art that shouldn't be relied on for self defence, training it has benefit for sure,just don't forget the other stuff.
Posted by: medulanet
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/24/08 08:14 PM
Why were kyusho jutsu and tuite usually described together? One reason is it is hard to hit points against an opponent who is moving. The grappling/immobilization aspects of tuite were designed to go hand in hand with kyusho jutsu. Its like the early american shorin ryu fighters were fond of holding and hitting in tournaments. This is tuite and kyusho jutsu at its most basic level, but the principles are there. If you have no tuite then you have no kyusho.
is kyusho limited to nerve strikes? im of the mind that hitting someone just about anywhere along the centerline can cause damage. you can hit someone in a muscle to make it spasam, the collar bone will hurt if struck or even be broken. striking tendons on the forearm make the hand go numb, and then theres shots to the neck and eyes, temple and ears. nerve strikes are a fraction of "vital points".
and yes med i totally agree, its very good to note that these methods are best made use of along with imobilizing techniques. similar to the "art of biting", you hold them so they can't get away and are forced to take some pain.
Posted by: Raul Perez
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/24/08 08:58 PM
The way we teach it is this... Kyusho is vital point attacking... not just PP/nerve attacking.
obvious attacks are the eyes, nose, throat, solar plexus.
But what if he is attacking and is on one leg (ie kicking) and I evade. His vital point is his leg that is rooted to the ground. I attack his leg... Kyusho Jitsu.
Posted by: Zach_Zinn
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/24/08 09:03 PM
My understanding of the term kyusho was that it implied mostly striking of nerve plexus and such, I didn't realize some people use it to include anatomically vulnerable areas. Looking at the wiki page I see that the definition is more inclusive than I once thought.
that seems like a very complete way of teaching how to fight. similar to the philipino idea of de-fanging the snake, you just smash what ever is close.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/25/08 03:20 AM
Quote:
is kyusho limited to nerve strikes? im of the mind that hitting someone just about anywhere along the centerline can cause damage. you can hit someone in a muscle to make it spasam,
From my perspective.
When the fur is flying in an attacker and defender situation
I think it would depend on the person and what state they are in.
Wasting time on hitting something on an attacker like certain parts of the muscle mass as opposed to a target that will bring better results isnt the best thing to do. Some people can absorb a lot of damage and only feel it after the adrenalin/ alcohol/ drugs have worn off.
Quote:
Quote:
i think its worth pointing ot that "when the fur is flying" does not really tipify most self defence
Yes it does.
Quote:
situations. if a self defence sitation carrys on for longer then it takes for someone to sucker punch you, then its a fight and not self defence.
Same thing,
Quote:
i don't mean to rear the "one punch ko" sh!te storm again, but i like paul vunak's concept of self defence. which is BAM, run. in other words pre-emtive striking makes hitting these points easier because there is no fur flying, just your victim standing in front of you thinking he has an advantage.
That would be realy nice if they did that.
Apart from the idiots they dont. Victim?
Both attacker and defender can/ might get bust up so who is the victim? Ippon scoring might be a good thing but it doesnt always work like that.
Quote:
something to consider in favor of vital point striking.
if you want to see what im talking about youtube oyata, alot of his demos begin facing someone with their arms down, and in a kind of quick draw type thing, when his attacker moves in to touch him, oyata digs in his little meat hooks and bodies hit the floor.
Nice for him but it doesnt work like that.
Jude
Posted by: jude33
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/25/08 03:22 AM
Quote:
The way we teach it is this... Kyusho is vital point attacking... not just PP/nerve attacking.
obvious attacks are the eyes, nose, throat, solar plexus.
But what if he is attacking and is on one leg (ie kicking) and I evade. His vital point is his leg that is rooted to the ground. I attack his leg... Kyusho Jitsu.
More my way of thinking.
Practical
Jude
Posted by: Barad
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/25/08 05:26 AM
Jude,
Sorry to misunderstand over what exactly you want a photo of-I thought you meant a photo of me striking the thigh point.
This is a link to the kind of thigh pad we use-turns out is is actually intended for cricket!
http://www.cricketbatsetc.co.uk/slazenger-xtec-armour-thigh-pad-p-318.htmlAs for instruction, there are a few others aside from Kissaki if you look. Vince Morris's courses are usually open to non-Kissaki members if you are interested and are easily understood by anyone with experience of shorin type kata. I will probably leave a message on the forum when he is next over. If you want a Kissaki club, there are about six or seven throughout the UK and then a few in the US based in New Jersey.
As for hitting a small point on GB31, close up with a knee is not so hard with practice and at medium range with a shin (i.e. a relatively large weapon) also fine with practice. Thai boxers seem to do something similar all the time. The same is true for attacks to the jaw (stomach 5) with say a rising forearm (age uke in the kata/kihon), a large weapon gives you a good chance of hitting even a quite small target.
Generally IMO whether people want to call it kyusho or just hitting vunerable points, if you jab or punch the pit of the throat for example, it does not matter whether you know or care to call it conception vessel 22, the effect is the same. Ian Abernethy seems to be talking about the same kyusho leg points in this article on low kicking but using Western anatomical terms and I am personally happy with that as I am interested in effect, not tradition per se.
http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_27.asp I have to agree with Medulanet that grabbing and trapping is often (although not always) integral to facilitating the strikes hence kyusho and tuite seen in controlling an arm on the wrist points (heart 5 and Lung 8) whilst say striking to the jaw with the forearm as I mentioned before and exactly as the kata shows age uke ("rising block/receiving technique") with hikite. The grab on the wrist points is supposed to make the jaw and neck points more sensitive to attack, as well as physically controlling and unbalancing someone, although I am fairly sure if I hit someone on the jaw with a forearm smash without holding the arm, it will still have a strong effect on them.
Equally the thigh kick (GB31) with the shin can be done from a grappling position, albeit risking a takedown against yourself if you get it wrong! Or it can be done from medium range without any other kind of grappling or locking at all and it still works well.
B
oh jude, don't bring me down.
actually....
"That would be realy nice if they did that.
Apart from the idiots they dont. Victim?
Both attacker and defender can/ might get bust up so who is the victim? Ippon scoring might be a good thing but it doesnt always work like that."
pre-emptive striking makes a victim out of an attacker. its not always gonna work, but nothing will always work. just to clarify, pre-emptive means "pre", as in before he attacks you. just to break it down further, cause i know i'll have to, when the attacker makes his intent aparrent you hit him. not that hard really, some one says "hey punk, i don't like your.....BAM, shot to the eyes. and then you run. simple enogh?
"Nice for him but it doesnt work like that."
if you have something to add to the conversation then please add it, if your gonna rain on a senior karate ka's parade then whats the point? im not asking you to agree with oyata's system or ideas, but Raul practices a version of oyata's system and you've been agreeing with him all along but when i say the same thing? hmmmmm.
"Yes it does."
i was better off not replying to a thing you said anyway.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Kyusho Jutsu - 04/25/08 01:48 PM
Quote:
oh jude, don't bring me down.
didint.
Quote:
Apart from the idiots they dont
Means that some people(idiots) do while others dont
So in I way I agree and adding to it that some dont.
Quote:
Ippon scoring might be a good thing but it doesnt always work like that
I did say Ippon scoring might be a good thing means I partly agree if it can be done that way, but it doesnt always happen like that.
Always means not every time. It doesnt mean it doesnt happen.
So in away I am still partly agreeing.
Quote:
Nice for him but it doesnt work like that.
That means it doesnt work like that. People dont stand there with their hands down.
So you see in a way I was agreeing and adding to not totaly disagreeing. So if you are getting annoyed there is no need.
Breath in count to 6 breath out and think of a wonderfull world where there is no hassle.
Jude
quit it with that patranizing breathing crap......please.