snap back
snaping back on your techniques can be a touchy subject in karate i've found. one problem comes up when snap kicking. have you ever herd someone say that the most important part of a snap kick is the snaping back? last night i was working on the heavy bag, and i felt darn good with the bag folding and swinging all over the place, then i class just now we go over the same technique, someone holds the pad for me, bang i kick and they stumble backwards.
wrong.
my instructor, whom i love and respect dearly, tells me the most important part of the kick is the snap back. in class i don't say a word: ous and back at it. but im thinking, how in the name of god dose the pulling back of a kicking leg add power to anything what so ever? there are light snapping kicks to targets like the groin and such, but in my expirence you kick them put the foot down as fast as posible to hit again, snaping back and holding the chamber "in case you need to kick again"....come on now...
in the name of proper technique in the eyes of the style i pratice, i'll do it and smile the whole time. its commen place in self defence to be very pickey about when and how you throw your kicks, and throwing more then one off the same leg is bullshido.
there are things about shotokan i freaking love, and then there are other things. thoughts?
Mark,
Use of a kick's snap back can be an important part of karate.
The idea of the snap back really focuses, IMO, on kicking the lower body (legs). A sharp focused kick causes great effect as the legs are not really designed to take a lot of punishment (heavy impact training excepted).
The kick is towards a more focused target and you don't want to leave it hanging out there as in thrust kicking, in case you miss.
There is another obvious answer, at advanced kicking studies you're striking with the snap back using the heel not the outgoing foot.
Multiple kicks with one leg are not dreams, there are distinct situations where such kicking is quite appropriate, but again I find that a part of advancing studies.
It is false to believe all striking/kicking must be done for extreme power delivered. Beginners mind, especially if advanced by 'advanced' karate-ka. It is more correct to realize you should use the appropriate power for the situation, at times even a light strike will cause the appropriate disruption, especially if your using a kick to set up something else in combination.
Whether all styles approach kicking this way I can't say, but from my studies, kicking with a fast focused strike back is an important tool.
I rarely explain this to a student until their execution is developed to the point they're ready for the situational studies of the usage.
pleasantly,
Posted by: harleyt26
Re: snap back - 03/24/08 10:08 PM
The "snap" back could also be important in preventing the kick from being grabbed or to release the foot from a grab.Sometimes the kick should be practiced not only pulling it back quickly but also with enough power to yank it out of a attackers grasp.I prefer not to use the term snap,it does not infer penetrating power but only a surface slap,kicks or punches.
Tom Hodges
Posted by: cxt
Re: snap back - 03/24/08 11:23 PM
student
Victor and Harley beat me to it.
The snap back does not add power per-se...the main point IMO is to keep the leg from being grabbed and you taken down.
Boxers don't leave their punchs extended for similar reasons....they don't want someone to get inside their guard.
It reads to me like your talking about 2 differnt things.
1-Snapping the kick back
2-"Holding the chamber" ...preseumably for the next kick.
The former sounds like a good idea to me.....the latter....not so much.
Again, don't know you or where you train but if that explination is what you are being told---to stand there holding a leg up in chamber....that sounds like a less than optimum thing to me.
Might be missing something of course.
Posted by: Zach_Zinn
Re: snap back - 03/25/08 12:33 AM
Well, it probably goes without saying that there are very good reasons for quickly retracting your kick, but yeah power isn't one of em in my book.
In some combat situation, you do not have the luxury of time, set-up, chambering, a static target held at optimum height and a long arcing distance to the target to generate maximum power as you would have when kicking a bag or focus pad.
Besides the idea of not having your kicking legs grabbed or pushed to one side so that you stumble a little giving your opponent an opening for a counter, the "snap" in the kick happens at the point of impact to give your kick a few extra ounces of 'impact-tension' because the snap at the point of impact tensed your leg for a split second, giving it some penetration effect. This I beleive was what your instructor was trying to demonstrate. Perhaps the "back" in the "snap-back" was causing the confusion.
Think of a bull-whip. The power, penetrating effect of a whip is not in the swing forward but in the pulling/snapping back.
Posted by: Supremor
Re: snap back - 03/25/08 07:57 AM
Quote:
It is false to believe all striking/kicking must be done for extreme power delivered. Beginners mind, especially if advanced by 'advanced' karate-ka. It is more correct to realize you should use the appropriate power for the situation, at times even a light strike will cause the appropriate disruption, especially if your using a kick to set up something else in combination.
I think that is the best explanation for the use of snap kicks. For instance, I use two different front kicks, which are actually very different techniques because of their usage and the power generation.
I have a front snap kick, which is a short sharp kick, with most of the power coming from the raising of the knee and the snap at the knee. It is useful for moving forward, or hitting softer areas like the groin or solar plexus. I have another front kick which more resembles the front kick in Muay Thai. Most of the power comes from thrusting the hips forward, the kick is usually done off the front leg and the intention is to create as much power as possible to "knock back" the opponent. I use it for jamming opponents when they try to punch, or in order to keep an opponent back at range. Two front kicks, one with snap, one without, and very different purposes but equally valid in their required situation.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: snap back - 03/25/08 08:58 AM
Student,
The rest of the guys beat me to it, but I will just add that the more experienced I get the more important I feel generating fast and powerful snapping kicks as opposed to thrust or swinging kicks. Especially if your concerned with learning to apply your art in close quarters.
Posted by: oldman
Re: snap back - 03/25/08 09:03 AM
One important asect of snapping back the leg or rechambering is that it gives you the opportunity to choose where you place your next step. If you over comitte to a kick your foot can come down on something you don't intend it to come down on. If yu have rechambered and re establish balance you can be intentional about where you put you foot down or what you put it down on.
Posted by: underdog
Re: snap back - 03/25/08 09:15 AM
It may be the language used to explain things, but I understood it differently. Everything said above about not being grabbed and being ready to strike again is true. However, what I understood about "snap back" is the natural thing that the leg or a punch will do when it is thrown with a relaxed whipping, from the ground to the weapon kind of wave motion. The leg/arm "snaps back" a bit. Of course you rechamber and make choices about your next strike and all of that too.
wow, thanks every one!
Posted by: Ironfoot
Re: snap back - 03/25/08 11:35 AM
I've seen people understate the power of a snapping kick because of where they retract; at the surface rather than 3 to 5 inches in. Or they see the bag react to a push. With a good snapping front kick, the opponent doesn't fly backwards; they drop like a stone. The heavy bag jumps - it doesn't swing as much.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: snap back - 03/25/08 12:18 PM
S-O-L That is the reason we practice at the 2nd level of and throughout our training sparring bare fisted. Padded alot of things that we think are happening are because of the type pads we.
At the 2nd level we do round-robin sparring bare fisted no knuckle head contact but body and sweeps/throws down strikes. A snap roundhouse kick that stuns you or seems to bump you and you can fire a punch back on in pads, will fold and drop you out of pads. The hook kick is one that is base on snap back to the kidney in pads it stuns you, bare heel sunk in the kidney you are momentarily immobile, eyes open on the ground but you can't move.
Not to mention punched or strikes to the body that can be absorbed padded. Barefisted you are folded or on one knee. It is important that you understand Karate is not meant to be trained in foam padds its practiced that way for safety and to prevent being sued.
We only train bare fisted rarely because in combination injuries can happen easily. But we occassionally drift down memory lane just to know what's really going on in Karate. Then we practice for safety, in combinations range and flow padded up.
Listen to your Instructor the bags not tell the whole story, there's another way to do things besides thrusting which is a good method pending how much distance you have.
i get what your saying. we used thoes big 2 hands to hold kicking sheilds when we were working this last night, there hard ot focus a snap on cause they have to much give. i feel like you gotta thrust through to get a reaction. i'll work on it.
in the mean time, what kind of pad or anything would you recomned to use to help develop this kind of strike? my heavy bag is prety solid now thats its been taped up, i would imagine a "soild" target over a "fluffy" one.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: snap back - 03/25/08 10:45 PM
The kicking sheild is not the best thing to practice a snap technique on. I like free hanging bags filled with sand or water the goal is to snap front kick and as it reactions roundhouse kick it.
Try the same thing with a front thrust kick and you don't have time to turn into your rhk as it swings away, unless you chase it.
The same thing with a strike you snap punch the bag, then follow with a heavier blow. As its been stated focus is the key, your focus is 2-4" instead of deep 8-12" or more as in a thrust.
The main thing is a good snap strike/blow on the hanging bag kinda pops up or snaps up, what you will see on the bag is a small implosion or indention as the bag snaps away and is drawn back toward you.
In this practice you see the purpose of each striking method, with the thrust you want to blow thru, with snap you want an implosion (like a bldg being pro-demolised by dynomite) or they start to drop where they stand making follow up easier you don't have chase them down.
Pads can cheat you out of real techniques.
Posted by: Ironfoot
Re: snap back - 03/28/08 11:32 AM
The air shields can help a snap-kicker maintain penetration. When I kick them, I'm trying to kick the holder, not the shield.
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: snap back - 03/28/08 11:41 AM
It's been toched on but not specific to kicking,
snap back (or relaxation) also leads to fast 2nd technique, something significant to consider in application.
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: snap back - 03/28/08 12:32 PM
Quote:
there are very good reasons for quickly retracting your kick, but yeah power isn't one of em in my book.
Actually that is not quite true. Snapping a kick or any techinique lowers the time of contact, and transfer of power is roughly inversely porportional to the time of contact (as well as area). The element being not how much power you generate, but how much you transfer into your opponent.
Also, as touched on but I'll mention as well. Snapping a kick seems to improve the overall kick technique, especially for beginners. By snapping back you must have good motion and control of you body throughout, this allows you to relax and let the body flow through the kick, beginning to end and thus a better, more power, more controlled kick.
My 2 cents.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: snap back - 03/28/08 12:46 PM
Quote:
this allows you to relax and let the body flow through the kick
Hmm. Gonna have to disagree with that, at least if we are talking roundhouse kicks. Thai-style, full rotation kicks are actually more "relaxed" (not to say easier to throw), in that there is no artificial friction to stop the kick's travel into the target. The only "bounce-back" occurs from rebounding off the target surface. If the target is missed, the momentum will carry the kicker all the way around, instead of being able to pull the leg back.
Both types of kicks have advantages and disadvantages.
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: snap back - 03/28/08 01:39 PM
Quote:
Thai-style, full rotation kicks are actually more "relaxed" (not to say easier to throw), in that there is no artificial friction to stop the kick's travel into the target.
And in the hands of a beginner, quite sloppy as well. I was also not discounting the effective use of a Thai Roundhouse.
But when dealing with student kickers, the snap back forces them to focus on the end of the kick being the snap back, which relaxes them throughout the rest of the kick. It also requires them to get the leg set properly otherwise it's more difficult to retract. Much easier to throw a Thai roundhouse After you learn to retract one.
I don't think either kick is more relaxed when done correctly, though I do think people tend to "load" more on a Thai kick.
But with a Thai Kick you are also absorbing a good portion of the shock from impact unlike a snapping kick, so the artifical friction is replaced by rebounding power.
Martial arts is actually application of Physics. As mentioned above, your goal is to maximize the force of the strike. Force (F) = Mass (M) x Acceleration (A). F= MA
Acceleration (A) = Change in Velocity (dV) divided by Change in Time (dT).
Therefore F = M x (dV/dT)
This means if you minimize the time your foot contacts the target then you can generate the same amount of Force with less use of mass. Basically, you can hurt the person just as much with a less powerful kick. This allows you to committ to the situation less and therefore have a faster responce time to the next action, be it an additional attack, a defense or a a simple recovery from the kick/punch.
Of course, Physics doesn't account for the mental aspect of fighting/sparring. Sometimes it's much better to attack somebody mentally with a huge wind up and kick and other times it's better to attack there mind with a quick attack that hits a target without them being able to react.
Practice and Physics provides the tools but fighting/sparring is all about the situation. Practice everything and use everything.
Posted by: JAMJTX
Re: snap back - 03/28/08 04:35 PM
There are a couple of reasons behind the "snap back" in the kick. It's NOT in case you have to kick with the same foot again. This 2nd kick will always be very weak.
2 theories:
1 - the "bull whip theory". A whip is basically harmless if you just slap someone with. But snap them with it it will hurt and cause other injuries. This same theory is applied to the kick, punch etc.
2 - pull it back fast so it doens't get grabbed. Makes a lot of sense.
3 - in the case of kicking, if you just kick and drop the foot down you are have less control, you are letting gravity do some work for you. By pulling the foot back and "rechambering" you are placing the foot down under your own control instead of just "falling forward" and letting the foot fall where ever.
There is some merit to these ideas. This is where discussions on style and preference come in to play.
Some people like to hit with the most amount of force possible. Others are willing to sacrifice some force and hit either more times or strike weaker points of the body that don't require so much force.
You have to look at the reasoning behind the strategy of each style.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: snap back - 03/28/08 04:36 PM
Kimo -
Quote:
Much easier to throw a Thai roundhouse After you learn to retract one.
Yikes! This is where we disagree. Mechanics of a Thai-style RH are quite different from a snap-type kick. Butterfly or Taison would be better at describing the differences, but as one that is making a transition from snap RH kicks to full follow-through kicks, it is not as easy as it would appear.
And again, it is a matter of what you intend to do with the kick. If you are aiming to structurally destabilize the opponent, a longer impulse will often work better than a short (snap) one will.
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: snap back - 03/28/08 04:49 PM
Quote:
Yikes! This is where we disagree. Mechanics of a Thai-style RH are quite different from a snap-type kick
I think we would need a heavy bag and a Dojo to sort this out, but the point is to learn a Thai kick, is easier after you learn the more difficult snapping round house.
Not judging the application or value of either, this is not about which kick is better.
Even you said the Thai kick was easier to throw.
Quote:
Thai-style, full rotation kicks are actually more "relaxed" (not to say easier to throw),
The problem also is we may be throwing the kicks differently, I have seen a lot of people throw kicks and I have seen a lot of variation, some OK, some no so much.
So it's difficult to have a conversation about this, without seeing the differences live.
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: snap back - 03/28/08 04:54 PM
Quote:
And again, it is a matter of what you intend to do with the kick.
Of course, I don't want to give the impression that I think one kick is better then another, different doesn't imply better.
Posted by: butterfly
Re: snap back - 03/28/08 05:13 PM
Sorry for just jumping in on this conversation late, but...
Quote:
I think we would need a heavy bag and a Dojo to sort this out, but the point is to learn a Thai kick, is easier after you learn the more difficult snapping round house.
I think both kicks are as easy or as hard as the other dependent upon the person learning. But, I also think if you learn a snapping kick first, you will have to unlearn as much as you take in because of the differences in the actions of the two.
The people I have seen with the greatest problem in learning an MT style round kick are those for whom traditional karate kicking techniques came first and who cannot divest themselves of the mechanical structure requisite to those types of snapping kicks.
The hardest kicks that I have personally felt have been MT style round kicks. The most focused and tightly concentrated kicks have been good karate snapping style kicks, but a lot of karate-ka that I have met do not know how to deliver these with a goodly amount of mustard on them either.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: snap back - 03/28/08 05:18 PM
Kimo -
Quote:
Even you said the Thai kick was easier to throw.
Not quite, my friend. What I said was this:
Quote:
Thai-style, full rotation kicks are actually more "relaxed" (not to say easier to throw),
I do agree that it would be easier to see the differences in person.
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: snap back - 03/28/08 05:35 PM
Quote:
But, I also think if you learn a snapping kick first, you will have to unlearn as much as you take in because of the differences in the actions of the two.
This is where the forum fails us, I would like to see the differences you are discussing, because I don't find it difficult to at all to move between the 2 kicks, but I am sure that is a result of my mechanics, and the mechanics of the kicks I was taught.
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: snap back - 03/28/08 05:37 PM
Quote:
not to say easier to throw
I guess I read that as "not to say, easier to throw".
Just when I thought I had ya.
Posted by: Rob_Rivers
Re: snap back - 03/31/08 04:02 PM
Yes...it is physics. The snapping kick...or just about any snapping karate technique does NOT create more force the way a whip does. A whip is flexible...therefore when you stop the motion of the whip, you are creating a circle that tightens up exponentially as you pull back on it. Think of a water-skiier at the end of the rope as the boat makes a tight 180 degree turn. The whip parallels the ski boat making a 180 degree turn, followed by a tighter 180, and so on. In the end, the skiier is accelerating exponentially.
During a kick, there is no returning circle. Simply, you tighten up your ankle, thus taking any flex out of the technique. You are pulling back with your knee. You get a bit of the snapping effect if you losen your ankle as you pull back with the knee and the target is BEHIND your foot, such as maybe a loose front snap kick to the groin where the foot is slapping back to hit the groin. A technique that does use a snapping effect is a backfist when the arm is positioned so that the snap of the wrist causes the target to be hit by the knuckles as the wrist is snapping BACKWARDS. Any forward moving technique or technique that keeps the connecting joint locked is not going to snap, no matter how fast you pull back with your knee. The way most people do a front kick or Round kick is not going to be more powerful because you snap it. Snapping it, I'll agree, will make it harder to catch and will setup the next technique. Also, the less time you are standing on one foot the better.
Happy Kicking
Rob
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: snap back - 03/31/08 06:26 PM
Quote:
Round kick is not going to be more powerful because you snap it.
Sure it will if you reduce the time of contact, you increase the net transfer of power.
all other things equal yeah, but its not all going into the target if your punching like the WKF guys.
Posted by: underdog
Re: snap back - 03/31/08 09:54 PM
OK thanks. I understand this explanation. I have to go pay attention to how I kick and watch a few people so I can see how this, and how much of this applies. Not everything that is true in physics applies as neatly as would seem when it comes to real people with their real joints and muscles. I can see the back fist piece very clearly. It is easy to visualize that this is exactly what happens.
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: snap back - 03/31/08 11:32 PM
Quote:
all other things equal yeah,
Of course, I was just making note of the principle, it's hardly the only factor.
People forget about the Rebound portion of the impulse collision formula. Basically F = M * A. A = dV / dT.
People always assume the change in velocity is the striking surface. The foot or hand. It's really the change in velocity of the surface being struck since that is what we care about in terms of damageing it.
The change in velocity has to be the TOTAL change in velocity. A snap technique actually creates a velocity for the struck surface in one direction and when the foot or hand is snapped back it creates a velocity in the other direction. Those two velocities have to be added together which then creates a much higher force since the effective velocity is higher.
Like said above, there are hundreds of factors involved in an actual strike, most notably that we are hitting squishy targets with slightly less squishy striking surfaces so nothing is perfect.
Strike hard, strike fast, snap when it's appropriate.