What are YOUR 'karate credentials'?
Posted by: harlan
What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/03/07 12:50 PM
(From E-budo) A 'karate conman' was exposed, and the advice to parents was to check out the teacher's 'karate credentials'. I found that an incredibly hard thing to qualify/nail down. An uninformed parent might think that credentials equals association 'papers', or rank, or just grey hair and self-professed 'years of study'. A beginner like me thinks 'show me'. I don't have a clue how bonafide karate teachers assess their peers.
Define 'karate credentials'.
Is that really good advice anyway???
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8IhEN5QBD8A
Posted by: MattJ
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/03/07 01:48 PM
I think credentials only matter in certain cases. If you are selling yourself as coming from a certain lineage, teaching a certain manner, etc. Then it become a matter of not getting what you pay for if the credentials are not there or are bogus.
If one is simply looking to learn fight skills, then the only credential the teacher needs is to be able to beat your a$$.
Bonafide teachers should be able to assess skill pretty easily by watching for a bit. Alignment, speed, accuracy, etc, are pretty visible. A quick sparring match will really tell you.
But even most paper credentials can be checked, if anyone ever bothers.
Posted by: ChangLab
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/03/07 02:17 PM
"Credentials do not Make the Man or the Martial Artist"
-Me
Posted by: Victor Smith
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/03/07 02:50 PM
All instructors have 'credentials' which are not pieces of paper from some group.
They're the class and the students.
To see their credentials observing how the instructor teaches beginners, how they teach advanced students (brown belts), how theyr very advanced students perform form the only credentials anyone needs to know.
A students performance is always their own, but it is also a reflection how they are being taught.
The method to evaluate credentials is quite simple, watch a class, and compare that to classes from other instructors in your local.
Posted by: medulanet
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/03/07 03:21 PM
Hmm, karate credentials, how about, when you strike your opponents fall. That is the credential for an individual's karate. For an instructor, when your students strike their opponents fall. At least that's how I see it.
Posted by: harlan
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/03/07 03:30 PM
Sure...you guys know what to look for. Like in the video...they questioned something 'basic': how the kids were likely to hyperextend a knee due to poor teaching of kicking. That isn't something a clueless parent knows.
Seems like credentials for the advanced are things you learn...but don't put on a resume.
Posted by: Victor Smith
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/03/07 04:02 PM
There is no system that provide credentials that anyone can use and trust as meaningful.
But the buyer can use simple ways to see what happens. Talk to students, for exmple if they're all limping that might point to the knee hyper-extension you mention. Sure that's simplistic but there is little else. Find knowlegable individuals and solicit their opinion, compare schools, and then keep a commitment if when you get into the program if it is bad, leave immediately. Document your reason and when they come after you for money, counter sue!!!!!!!!!!
Pleasant world isn't it.
The rule Crevat Emptor, let the buyer beware, is the true credential.
Posted by: oldman
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/03/07 04:26 PM
Harlan,
I don't know if many prospective students or parents question credentials very often. Not that they shouldn't. Most folks seem to believe whatever they are told.
First any interested party can observe as many classes as they wish. They are also free to participate in classes without cost (within reason). They must first sign a waiver though.
I am willing to provide anyone that asks, my training history and teaching experience. That includes rank certificates and contact information for my instructor and the other instructors in our organization that I have trained and tested under. In addition I would be willing to provide (with their permission) contact information for current adult students and parents of minor students as references.
I would also be willing to provide personal references outside of the art.
If that left any questions unanswered I would encourage the prospective student or parent to talk with my wife. My wife is almost pathologically incapable of being untruthful.
If that left them wondering anything I would let them talk to my 3 teens.
My kids would tell then that I'm a huge a$$ and I never let them do anything or go anywhere and I'm so cheap and I think I'm sooooooooooooo funny and I'm soooo not funny and we have to be in by a stupid midnight curfew and that I MAKE one drive a USED Saturn and the other one drive a USED Toyota when her best friend got a new Lexus for her birthday and Alexi got a JEEP LIBERTY for her birthday!!! They would let you know I'm sooooooooo not fair and that we are POOR!!!
So I guess what I'm say is the best Karate credentials I have are a very honest wife, and normal teens.
Posted by: Bossman
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/03/07 04:26 PM
Quote:
(From E-budo) A 'karate conman' was exposed, and the advice to parents was to check out the teacher's 'karate credentials'. I found that an incredibly hard thing to qualify/nail down. An uninformed parent might think that credentials equals association 'papers', or rank, or just grey hair and self-professed 'years of study'. A beginner like me thinks 'show me'. I don't have a clue how bonafide karate teachers assess their peers.
Define 'karate credentials'. Is that really good advice anyway???
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8IhEN5QBD8A
Hi Harlan
Here's a guide we put together for English people:
http://www.masa.org.uk/ you can also download the standards document for free there.
Posted by: Saisho
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/03/07 08:51 PM
I agree with Oldman in the statement that most people don't look at creds. If a person has a blackbelt (provided that art uses blackbelt to mean the upper ranks), most people will not question further.
Now, those that understand the varying abilities between instructors (notice I didn't say 'Style'), may want to know a little about association or even lineage. Lineage should speak for something. Anyone I promote to blackbelt will meet a standard that I expect. There shouldn't be a decline in quality.
Association doesn't mean a whole lot. It is sometimes a plus for prospective students to know they belong to something bigger.
As for credentials for myself, I usually tell people just a few things.
1) I am a student of a true Okinwan master - The only person in the Greater Dayton, Ohio area directly linked to Okinawa and the U.S. Director for his Okinawan Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Association.
2) I am listed in the Okinawan prefecture registry of True Okinawan Karate instructors.
3) I hold Masters degrees in Anatomy and Physical Therapy (in 8 weeks). So they will learn safe and effective martial arts.
4) I let them watch/participate in a class and see what I can teach them.
If they don't want to be my student after that, Fine. I don't teach for a living.
Posted by: Victor Smith
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/03/07 10:58 PM
gee, on a personal level teaching for 30 years I've never had anyone ask about credentials, my qualifications or who I am or am not associated with.
In our youth classes the parests show up for the first class or two, see what is going down and then never show up again. I've had students go from white belt to black belt (7 to 9 years of training) and have never seen their parents one time.
Though a few years ago I did have a father, who had trained once upon a time, stop me after his daughters first class and explain "What are you doing, you're actually teaching beginners karate?" I only assume he had seen other programs. He never showed up again, but his daughter continued training for several years till her interest moved elsewhere.
It's interesting hearing that others have different experiences.
For my adult group, first I do my best to discourage new students from training (especially those with previous training) but if what they see is interesting they can train with us forever. I am right though, it's better for me if they haven't trained before, for i don't have to fight through their previous training.
Different experiences I guess.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/03/07 11:44 PM
ok, I'll play.
let's say I'm a prospective student looking at your dojo and I ask your credentials.
what I'm thinking, as a hypothetical prospective, as you say them, is in bold...
Quote:
As for credentials for myself, I usually tell people just a few things.
1) I am a student of a true Okinwan master
unsubstantiated and opinionated statement. however the bragging tone is noted. are you or were you a regular student of Kensei Taba...or are you ranked thru his organization?
- The only person in the Greater Dayton, Ohio area directly linked to Okinawa and the U.S. Director for his Okinawan Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Association.
"Shogen-Ryu" ? basically thats Kensei Taba's version of Matsubayashi, yes? There are other Matsubayashi in the Ohio area - in fact, it used to be/still is a hotspot for Matsubayashi Ryu. There are other Shorin orgs in that area.
2) I am listed in the Okinawan prefecture registry of True Okinawan Karate instructors. does it actually use the term 'True'? what organization makes that registry? since you use the term 'prefecture', I'm guessing it's based in mainland Japan?
3) I hold Masters degrees in Anatomy and Physical Therapy (in 8 weeks). So they will learn safe and effective martial arts.The 'safe' part I'll give you, but how does an academic degree qualify what you teach as 'effective' ?
4) I let them watch/participate in a class and see what I can teach them. How is that a qualification? isn't that more of a 'what you see is what you get' policy?
overall, I think thats a weak list to give. hanging on affiliation to an org doesn't tell a whole lot - since orgs are often corporate and very often political. for all I know from that list, you could have been trained in Vanilla-ryu for 5 years then transferred and grandfathered into that org last year. Some orgs take in anyone paying the membership, some also look for dojo owners, some give special status to those with academic degrees. etc.
All of which have no bearing in credentials as it pertains to teaching a decent system.
how about starting with: years of consecutive training as a student, and in which arts? and years experience teaching?
I'm not asking you specifically, I'm not probing an answer, plus this thread isn't about you in particular. I'm thinking of which questions, in general, best address the inquiry of credentials.
Posted by: harlan
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/04/07 08:06 AM
'Credentials' is really, if you think on it, a really nebulous thing to tell someone to check out. Newbies/parents are conditioned in US society to think paper 'academic' or 'association' types of credentials. Part of the commercialized world we live in. These folks accept 'rank' as a substitute for paper. They don't have a clue how this barely touches the surface. There is the idea of 'street creds'...and that seems pretty dominant in the 'old world' of karate. 'If he can kick my butt..' type of thinking. Then there are the lineage hunters. I think that is pretty worthless as a 'credential' myself. Kinda like saying 'I'm a Yale man'. Doesn't indicate if you flunked Yale or were Valedictorian.
Posted by: harlan
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/04/07 09:37 AM
(Darn that edit time window)
Caveat: The part about lineage wasn't meant to apply to a few, select arts where lineage is protected...and therefore can be considered a bonafide credential.
Posted by: Ironfoot
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/04/07 09:55 AM
You know, I've thought about this before. OK, I begrudgingly joined an organization over a year ago for the first time. So what? I can trace my "lineage" 3 steps back to Tatsuo Shimabuku. So what? I have those fancy dan certificates framed. So what?
What it comes down to, is if someone doesn't think I deserve the obi I wear, let them try to take it off me. My credentials are the years I've studied under great karateka.
Does anyone here think the Mafia carry ID cards or certificates? But they exist, don't they?
Posted by: harlan
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/04/07 09:57 AM
I love it...'karate mafia'.
Just call me 'Big Momma.'
Posted by: Blackrainbow
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/04/07 10:05 AM
I have dozens of certificates and scrolls to hang on the walls and boxes of old dusty trophys. And like Tony I belong to that same Okinawan organization. But all of that really does mean anything to my students or potential students. A couple of days ago I found out about a former well known and very qualified instructor from my system who is peddling signed rank certificates on e-bay. And anyone with a printer can make credentials. I let my students former and present be my credentials. I refer any questions about how qualified I am to my students past and present. Since I don't charge any fees for instruction, a few hours in the dojo training will usually let people decide and they have nothing to loose except a little time and sweat.
Posted by: harlan
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/04/07 10:09 AM
So...for the advanced learner...their students are their credentials. What about the one selling bogus certificates? What kind of credential is he now...to his teacher...and to your system? Once they leave the dojo, get the rank, and start to establish themselves...does it still apply? And where do you draw the line: 'yeah...his karate is great but his character sucks.' (And you know where I'm leading with this: if students are your credentials...then you'd better be picky about who and what you teach.)
Posted by: Blackrainbow
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/04/07 11:43 AM
The guy selling the certificates once was a well respected and highly qualified instructor who had issues with the parent organization. By the way this is NOT the current organization I belong to. I know I will probably take some heat from some quarters but when I saw the evidence for myself I made an immediate phone call to the U.S. head of the parent organization. I usually blow this stuff off. But the certificates actually have the authentic signitures of the founder (now deceased) and the current head official as well as the signiture of a third party who I am not sure is part of the game. A true practitioner of the system would spot one huge flaw. The certificates are black and white copies and have no chops (seals) which are bright red. For those who would ask why I became involved it's because this act is a direct affront not only to the founder of our style but to all who came after and actually worked to attain the rank. I know there are those that say rank don't matter and the certificates are B$. But most of us worked damn hard to obtain ours. As for picking my students, no I don't pick and choose except for a couple of criteria. I won't teach anyone with a history of criminal violence and if someone tells me they just want to learn to "whoop a$$" I send them on their way.I do however have very strict performance values. I don't tolerate people who won't work or crybabies.That said, this brings up another issue. I teach handicapped students. So all of my "performance" markers are not physical in nature. That is another area where I take considerable heat from the MA community. Most of these handicapped students are veterans of the war in Iraq or Afghanistan who were severly wounded and were in the MA before hand. I dare anyone to tell me that they have no right to continue their studies. But as I said, my students are my best credentials. If someone wants a grandmaster, an organization and certificates I have those too.
Posted by: hedkikr
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/04/07 11:46 AM
Most people are uninformed about legitimate MA - they don't have a clue re: lineage, technical skill, teaching ability, how some arts complement each other vs. those that are "garage sale MA".
Lineage is a funny thing. Some organizations accept anybody & their blind dogs while others are very particular who they let in. Also, there are too many groups that proclaim to be the "True", "Legitimate" or "Official" line of a group that splintered years ago.
And how about starting your own MA Hall of Fame & electing yourself "Instructor of the Year"? It's also true that poor students come from poor instructors but they rarely recognize their deficiencies becuase similar schools usually congregate together. Big fish in a small pond.
Technical skill is often compared to what's seen in the movies so if you aren't flying & flipping, you're "not that good". I always make it a point to explain the difference between fighting & performing because I'm "not that good".
W/o experiencing other instructors, it's impossible to rate your current instructor. I've seen instructors blame the student for their own lack of communication skills (verbal & demonstration). Kinda like faith healers...("you can't walk because YOU didn't have enough faith").
Instructors who list BB in 1/2 dozen MA don't impress me. Young instructors who have 8-Dan don't impress me. 'Nuff said.
Personally, I just refer to our website.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/04/07 11:49 AM
To John Q public Credentials are whats hang on your wall or whats in your window. I know many dojos that because they win torunaments the public flocks to them. Even when they are not wanted at some of the bigger events because their students and assistance and sometimes head Instructor lack discipline. Sometimes both are wanted by the police. I'm not bashing tourneys just the judgment of John Q public.
Most head Dojo or teacher even here in USA keeps some kind of records but usually only share that with other Senseis. I don't think John Q is really concern with real credentials they want what They believe they want. I've seen some families walk out of good dojos because tournament competition is not the teachers main concern.
The major body have split so much that there is no control of what is or is not an accredit (being sanctioned don't make you a good dojo imho, now days you can buy it) or good dojo. The only proof as mentioned is the fruits that it bears, from the top to the youngest student, generally speaking. The knowledgable can see this clearly, but John Q is blind to it unless it painted gold.
Posted by: Joss
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/04/07 01:20 PM
Quote:
'Credentials' is really, if you think on it, a really nebulous thing to tell someone to check out. Newbies/parents are conditioned in US society to think paper 'academic' or 'association' types of credentials. Part of the commercialized world we live in. These folks accept 'rank' as a substitute for paper. They don't have a clue how this barely touches the surface. There is the idea of 'street creds'...and that seems pretty dominant in the 'old world' of karate. 'If he can kick my butt..' type of thinking. Then there are the lineage hunters. I think that is pretty worthless as a 'credential' myself. Kinda like saying 'I'm a Yale man'. Doesn't indicate if you flunked Yale or were Valedictorian.
Isn't this everyday life for any commercial activity?
What are the credentials we use for:
... your doctor, dentist, lawyer, electrician, mechanic, home builder, day care center? Beyond state licensing, what is there? I've never sought or rejected anyone based on their wall hanging certificates.
Reputation and price are about it.
Posted by: harlan
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/04/07 01:36 PM
'Reputation'. That is an interesting credential.
Posted by: harlan
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/04/07 02:40 PM
Bossman: I took a look at it...but section 3.1 (Instructor Qualifications) refers one to Appendix 10...and Appendix 10 is empty of qualifications.
Quote:
Hi Harlan
Here's a guide we put together for English people:
http://www.masa.org.uk/ you can also download the standards document for free there.
Posted by: JMWcorwin
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/04/07 03:14 PM
As previously said, I've never actually had anyone ask. I have my cert's posted on the wall but haven't had them challenged by anyone.
In reality, I think like most things you're selling yourself not the art or your links to the art. Those who know nothing will join because they like you, your pitch, your attitude, etc. Those who know will be able to tell if you're legit by watching you and/or your class.
Sure, if you're clueless and want reassurance, go ahead and ask for the paper. Then try and check it out if that makes you feel better. But, my advice would be talk to the instructor; get a feel of his character. Watch a few classes and try at least one. If you still feel like you need credentials, it's probably not the school for you.
Posted by: harlan
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/04/07 03:17 PM
Yes...but there is this recurring idea that martial arts should somehow be regulated. It keeps coming up...and tv coverage like the initial post feeds into a perceived 'need' for some kind of 'certification'.
Posted by: oldman
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/04/07 03:32 PM
All of the following words have the same root word (credere) to believe or trust...
Quote:
cre·den·tial [kri-den-shuhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. Usually, credentials. evidence of authority, status, rights, entitlement to privileges, or the like, usually in written form: Only those with the proper credentials are admitted.
2. anything that provides the basis for confidence, belief, credit, etc.
–verb (used with object)
3. to grant credentials to, esp. educational and professional ones: She has been credentialed to teach math.
–adjective
4. providing the basis for confidence, belief, credit, etc.
Quote:
cred·i·ble [kred-uh-buhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. capable of being believed; believable: a credible statement.
2. worthy of belief or confidence; trustworthy: a credible witness.
[Origin: 1350–1400; ME (< MF) < L crédibilis, equiv. to créd(ere) to believe + -ibilis -ible]
—Related forms
cred·i·bil·i·ty, cred·i·ble·ness, noun
cred·i·bly, adverb
—Synonyms 1. plausible, likely, reasonable, tenable
Quote:
cred·i·bil·i·ty (kr?d'?-b?l'?-t?) Pronunciation Key
n.
The quality, capability, or power to elicit belief: "America's credibility must not be squandered, especially by its leaders" (Henry A. Kissinger).
A capacity for belief: a story that strained our credibility.
Quote:
cre·du·li·ty [kruh-doo-li-tee, -dyoo-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
willingness to believe or trust too readily, esp. without proper or adequate evidence; gullibility.
[Origin: 1375–1425; late ME credulite < L crédulit?s. See credulous, -ity]
Quote:
cred·u·lous [krej-uh-luhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. willing to believe or trust too readily, esp. without proper or adequate evidence; gullible.
2. marked by or arising from credulity: a credulous rumor.
Last but not least...
Quote:
in·cred·i·ble [in-kred-uh-buhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. so extraordinary as to seem impossible: incredible speed.
2. not credible; hard to believe; unbelievable: The plot of the book is incredible.
Someone could discribe me as incredible, meaning I'm either amazing or not someone to place your trust in.
Don't you just love the english language.
Posted by: Victor Smith
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/04/07 03:57 PM
Narda,
The Martial Arts are already regulated, but in more subtle ways. They don't certify the instructors knowledge or ablitity, the state often requires bonding insurance proof to allow a pogram to proceed. Then the landloard/school or organization hosting the program require liability insurance to protect their property or location from law suit. In turn the insurance companies set up what a program can or cannot do, requiring safety gear for all 'sparring' and regulating what techniques are allowed or disallowed to protect their right to make money and not pay anything out.
While there are exceptions this form of regulation is far more sensible for the governments than trying to open the can of worms who is qualified or not. They're protecting the public in their eyes, with such regulation and as long as the public is protected (that the school can't fold and not return the pre-payments of the students, that the student won't be injured because of the insurance restrictions) thats' all that is required.
For example in NH, all of the phone directory yellow pages for Martial Arts carry an admonishment if you're opening a martial arts program you have to call the State for Registration details. And the State is notified if a school opens by the commercial schools falling over themselves to report them, trying to get them to drop out because of the cost of the bonding insurance.
Posted by: JMWcorwin
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/04/07 06:48 PM
I supose in this day and age a school that teaches children, which most do, parents might be wanting to know things like, "Is he a criminal? A pediphile? Sex offender?" And I guess I don't have a prolem with them wanting to know it. But I might have a problem with being asked for a criminal check from a student. Mine's clean, but the asking would bother me I think. If it somehow became another in a long line of lame, privacy invading, paranoia induced laws, I would post such a certification in my office.
But, I was looking at the question more from the standpoint of people looking for a true martial arts teacher and not certification of honorable standing in the community. That's a whole new well that I loathe diving in to. Are priests now required to have such credentials? Soccer coaches? Little league, football, and on and on? And would any such certification garauntee you're leavin your child with a trustworthy person? No. It just means they haven't been caught or it hasn't been reported.
No matter how hard you try, morality can't be legislated.
Posted by: Saisho
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/04/07 06:48 PM
Indeed, there are lots of things that a person could think
IF they ever decided to ask about credentials. And yes, I can see how someone would think a few of the things you posted.
1) I am a student of a true Okinwan master
unsubstantiated and opinionated statement. however the bragging tone is noted. are you or were you a regular student of Kensei Taba...or are you ranked thru his organization? What tone? I would be the first to tell you that I am the most humble person you will ever meet.
I don't see how this is unsubstantiated or opinionated. Someone may doubt his abilities, but Okinawa is rather strict on who is termed a Master. It would be nearly impossible to prove I was ranked by direct teaching from him.
2) The only person in the Greater Dayton, Ohio area directly linked to Okinawa and the U.S. Director for his Okinawan Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Association.
"Shogen-Ryu" ? basically thats Kensei Taba's version of Matsubayashi, yes? There are other Matsubayashi in the Ohio area - in fact, it used to be/still is a hotspot for Matsubayashi Ryu. There are other Shorin orgs in that area. Yes, There are lots of Matsubayashi-Ryu dojos in Ohio and many in the Dayton area. However, all of the Dayton area dojos belong to associations that are headed by a self appointed U.S. 'Master'. None are affiliated with Okinawa.
2) I am listed in the Okinawan prefecture registry of True Okinawan Karate instructors.
does it actually use the term 'True'? what organization makes that registry? since you use the term 'prefecture', I'm guessing it's based in mainland Japan? I am not sure what all it exactly says. It is in Japanese. Here is the link
web page Seriously though, how many people would question my name on a website with a lot of Japanese writing?
3) I hold Masters degrees in Anatomy and Physical Therapy (in 8 weeks). So they will learn safe and effective martial arts.
The 'safe' part I'll give you, but how does an academic degree qualify what you teach as 'effective' ? Absolutlely!!! So much stuff I see being taught as effective is so anatomically and biomechanically wrong. Knowing how the body works, I know very well how to make it NOT work. I have cut into the body enough to know how and where things are located.
4) I let them watch/participate in a class and see what I can teach them.
How is that a qualification? isn't that more of a 'what you see is what you get' policy? How is it not? If I knew someone without any affiliation or certificates and knew that person could teach me something amazing, I would consider that the ultimate qualification.
I see where you are coming from and I agree. It is not easy to qualify yourself, but these are things I think make me unique in my area.
Posted by: medulanet
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 12:42 AM
Tony, I understand what you are trying to make about your karate. I think the point some people are trying to make is that a name registered on an okinawan website, a college degree, a prestigous teacher who you see a couple times a year, and what ever rank you have don't make your karate effective. Your skill does. For me effective karate means application, not pretty kata. If you can use what you train to do in the manner that you intend, then isn't that all you really need? I train with my current teacher from Florida and I go and train with the okinawans you mentioned because I believe they can help me improve the effectiveness of my karate. I don't need my name on a website, I don't need rank from them, I don't need their patch, I need strong karate. The point is that none of your points are credentials of having strong karate. I know a lot of doctors black belts who knew a lot about anatomy, however, it sure didn't make their karate very strong at all. I don't think he is attacking your karate, he has never seen it, but I agree that depending on your definition of effective/good karate, those credentials are not very strong. For example, does Taba have any students who do not have good karate? Are there any teachers on that website who do not have good karate? Are there any anatomy experts who do not have good karate. If the answer is yes, then your points are not that strong.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 01:45 AM
Quote:
Yes, There are lots of Matsubayashi-Ryu dojos in Ohio and many in the Dayton area. However, all of the Dayton area dojos belong to associations that are headed by a self appointed U.S. 'Master'. None are affiliated with Okinawa.
headed by Nagamine's son:
http://www.matsubayashi-ryu.com/index.php?id=Dojo&dojo=US
This association trumps yours in the Ohio area, since Nagamine's son inherited Matsubayashi:
www.mastinkarate.com
http://www.mastinkarate.com/about.html
even so, the prestige of being affiliated to a legitimate lineage name, does not say anything as to quality of instruction....or quality of art transmitted for that matter. That 'kid' looks too young to be heading a dojo, yet his association qualification is pristine. can't get any more associated than with the inheritor of a legitimate system...right? 'association' especially nowadays, doesn't mean a whole lot in and of itself.
you could have been trained mostly by the self-appointed US masters you mention and have just recently joined Mr. Taba's group. btw, is there a 'Shogen ryu' dojo in Okinawa? The group looks brand new. How long has Shogen ryu and it's association been in existence? who appointed him 10th dan?
My point is, if I were singling out affiliation as a credential, I'd have to go with the inheritor of the system's (Mr. Nagamine's son) group, as oppossed to an offshoot appointing themselves a 10th dan and a new patch.
That's IF I were only using affiliation as a credential, that is.
start-up orgs have been known to 'accelerate' rank advancement time-frames in order to spread it's roots as wide reaching as possible. put instructors on a fast-track, recruit existing matsubayashi students/sensei and grandfather their rank in - all so they are in the position to propegate the org's numbers. That would affect the quality of instruction.
so I think a good question to ask as credential is...how long has the instructor been consecutively training, which arts/org have they trained in, and how long has their current organization been in existance. how long have they trained under their current instructor...etc
those are the kinds of questions I'd ask...but then again...I'm not exactly a noob.
Posted by: medulanet
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 02:15 AM
Quote:
That 'kid' looks too young to be heading a dojo, yet his association qualification is pristine.
Actually Ed, Mastin is no "kid", unless you consider mid 30's a kid. I have trained with him and he is also associated with my teacher in Florida. His karate is solid.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 07:33 AM
no, mid-30's is not a kid - he 'looks' young, was the point. not calling anything or anybody out, just saying association in itself doesn't tell the whole story of qualification. I suppose just as 'looks' are sometimes deceiving.
Posted by: harlan
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 07:45 AM
Guys...remember...this thread is about what 'credentials' means to you. 'You should check out their credentials' was the advice given to clueless parents looking to enroll their kids in karate. So, going on that, if someone comes to your door looking for them, it's obvious that different folks are going to have different understandings of what 'credentials' means.
For someone like me, it comes down to word of mouth reputation/recommendaton with a follow up on the mat. I didn't ask about 'papers', thought it was rather...'rude'...to enquire about rank. It didn't occur for me ask about style, lineage, who is your teacher, etc. Actually, starting MA completely blind...the single most important criteria was...behavior. As an adult learner, I had the luxury of being able to closely observe others in class - student/teacher dynamics and learn about them as people. Did I like what I saw, observed, and sensed about the them? If I was a parent, enrolling a child, it would be harder to nail down these intangible aspects that are important to me.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 09:26 AM
I think it would be rude to inquire about rank and certificates.
Let's take my current Judo sensei. He is a blackbelt, but I'm not sure what rank he is. He told me he started when he was six or seven when we were talking about my son. He has physically shown me techniques and I can tell his Judo is very good, that's enough for me.
Another guy showed me his techniques in Aikido, which were terrible. He qualified himself as a fourth dan who has been training for 18yrs. Maybe he has and it just takes a loooong time to catch on??? His 'credentials' meant nothing to me. What he can do or cannot do is what matteres to me.
Certificates, references to lineage, true masters, Okinawa, Japan, etc..don't mean a darn thing to me. That's all about money, I'm not interested in what you paid for, I'm interested in what you can teach me.
Posted by: bearich
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 09:56 AM
Quote:
headed by Nagamine's son:
http://www.matsubayashi-ryu.com/index.php?id=Dojo&dojo=US
This association trumps yours in the Ohio area, since Nagamine's son inherited Matsubayashi:
www.mastinkarate.com
http://www.mastinkarate.com/about.html
even so, the prestige of being affiliated to a legitimate lineage name, does not say anything as to quality of instruction....or quality of art transmitted for that matter. That 'kid' looks too young to be heading a dojo, yet his association qualification is pristine. can't get any more associated than with the inheritor of a legitimate system...right? 'association' especially nowadays, doesn't mean a whole lot in and of itself.
you could have been trained mostly by the self-appointed US masters you mention and have just recently joined Mr. Taba's group. btw, is there a 'Shogen ryu' dojo in Okinawa? The group looks brand new. How long has Shogen ryu and it's association been in existence? who appointed him 10th dan?
Ed, please allow me to answer some of the questions you posted here.
First, saying which of these organizations trumps another would be a circular arguement either side could make. The style was given to Nagamine's son at the time of his death. However, Taba (and a few other Matsubayashi masters) were of higher rank and had more training under Nagamine at the time. Whether more weight is given to rank and time training or who heads the parent style is a debate either side can justify.
Is there a Shogen-Ryu dojo in Okinawa - yes. If I recall correctly, it is ran by an Maeda Sensei (an 8th Dan). And while I certainly cannot read kanji, if you can I'm sure the location is listed somewhere on the offical Shogen-Ryu site Link.
Shogen-Ryu was founded in 1997 after Shoshin Nagamine's death by Kensei Taba, with the assistance of two other high ranking Matsubayashi-Ryu masters, Takeshi Tamaki and Seie Shiroma. At the time of Nagamine's death, Taba had been both a 9th Dan (awareded by Nagamine Sensei directly) and President of Matsubayashi-Ryu for a few years. Taba was promoted to 10th Dan by the All-Okinawan Karate-Do Association.
Quote:
so I think a good question to ask as credential is...how long has the instructor been consecutively training, which arts/org have they trained in, and how long has their current organization been in existance. how long have they trained under their current instructor...etc
All good questions here. I would also add, can the instructor logically explain why certain moves or techniques are performed certain ways?
Those of us with enough experience under our belts (so to say) has surely asked a question about a particular move or technique only to receive an answer of "well that's just the way its done." If an instructor themselves cannot explain why a certain move is performed a certain way, then odds are it falls back to potentially poor training. Now this isn't to say that an instructor is required to know every facet of every move (we're all human after all), but when an instructor brushes it off, sweeps the question under the rug, and makes no effort to expand their own knowledge; then to me it should reflect on the creditential of the instructor in question.
Posted by: Blackrainbow
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 10:03 AM
I agree that belonging to an org is no guarantee of quality instruction. That goes for any association. If such were the case M.D's would all be great top quality doctors who never get sued. But at least with an org that has some recognized lineage and standing you have a better chance then with the "mail in your $500 variety. Just to answer Ed's question--Taba was certified by the same board that certified Grandmaster Nagamine. The government of the Okinwawa prefecture regulates this board. And yes Taba has a dojo in Okinawa. Takayoshi Nagamine inherited the Matsubayshi Ryu organization by "corporate" law. Any instructor on Okinawa will tell you that while Takayoshi Nagamine was Osensei's son, Taba was the senior man in the org directly below Grandmaster Nagamine. Unlike most of the ranking Okinawan elite, Taba does not push his rank. He wears a simple unadorned black belt. No one dares refer to him as master or grandmaster or any other honorific term in his presence. We call him sensei. I knew Shoshin Nagamine personally and trained with Takayoshi in the old days in Ohio. Opening a dojo or starting a karate org on Okinawa is not like here in the U.S. The government there started to realize that Karate was a valuable part of their national heritage. So there are no longer any "self appointed" Judans on the island. There is nothing to stop them going elswhere and doing that however. You will not find low ranking instructors starting a Mcdojo on Okinawa. All of that said, none of that means that you will get quality instruction just because the teacher is certified by those orgs. Yes Shogenryu is new. But the man is not. And unlike the others money is not an issue. When I was invited to join the only thing they cared about was my qualifications. Even though I was with Nagamine for over half of my life they didn't just issue me a certificate. I went through a process that took over a year before I was admitted and money never came up in the conversations. In fact, I had to offer to pay dues to help with org expenses and then was told I was trying to pay "too much". Now that might not speak to personal ability but it sure speaks to organizational morality.
Posted by: Ronin1966
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 10:35 AM
Hello Matt:
With regret, I must disagree with sparring as being "credentials". It presupposes the person who "wins" is the teacher, no? Irrelevent to me who wins bad days, injuries happen... I need to see who looses, specifically how they respond to loosing!!!!
Winning is simple, how you loose says far more important things...IMHO!
Jeff
Posted by: MattJ
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 11:18 AM
Quote:
Hello Matt:
With regret, I must disagree with sparring as being "credentials". It presupposes the person who "wins" is the teacher, no? Irrelevent to me who wins bad days, injuries happen... I need to see who looses, specifically how they respond to loosing!!!!
Winning is simple, how you loose says far more important things...IMHO!
Jeff
Ehhhh.....Ok. I will quote myself:
Quote:
If one is simply looking to learn fight skills, then the only credential the teacher needs is to be able to beat your a$$.
Implied was the ability to consistently win in sparring. I guess I should have been more clear. That is the most valid indicator of fighting skill, period. I am assuming that people studying fighting arts are doing so to gain skill in fighting.
Posted by: Joss
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 11:21 AM
Quote:
Guys...remember...this thread is about what 'credentials' means to you. 'You should check out their credentials' was the advice given to clueless parents looking to enroll their kids in karate. So, going on that, if someone comes to your door looking for them, it's obvious that different folks are going to have different understandings of what 'credentials' means.
For someone like me, it comes down to word of mouth reputation/recommendaton with a follow up on the mat. I didn't ask about 'papers', thought it was rather...'rude'...to enquire about rank. It didn't occur for me ask about style, lineage, who is your teacher, etc. Actually, starting MA completely blind...the single most important criteria was...behavior. As an adult learner, I had the luxury of being able to closely observe others in class - student/teacher dynamics and learn about them as people. Did I like what I saw, observed, and sensed about the them? If I was a parent, enrolling a child, it would be harder to nail down these intangible aspects that are important to me.
Harlan,
Regarding your orignal topic, I see now that paper "credentials" would be meaningless to any person new to the arts (and many within them). Telling the parents of a six year old to "check the teacher's credentials" is worthless.
First off they haven't a clue as to what piece of paper they are looking at. Second, they haven't a clue as to whether the credentials are real. Third, they have no MA lineage context within which to place the information, even if they DID understand it. And last, the paper in no way guarantees or even implies, that the holder is a good teacher and decent person.
A six year old's parents would have been served much better by being told to watch some classes (direct observation) and talk to other parents (reputation).
Posted by: BrianS
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 11:32 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Hello Matt:
With regret, I must disagree with sparring as being "credentials". It presupposes the person who "wins" is the teacher, no? Irrelevent to me who wins bad days, injuries happen... I need to see who looses, specifically how they respond to loosing!!!!
Winning is simple, how you loose says far more important things...IMHO!
Jeff
Ehhhh.....Ok. I will quote myself:
Quote:
If one is simply looking to learn fight skills, then the only credential the teacher needs is to be able to beat your a$$.
Implied was the ability to consistently win in sparring. I guess I should have been more clear. That is the most valid indicator of fighting skill, period. I am assuming that people studying fighting arts are doing so to gain skill in fighting.
How you lose is more important though Matt. What about that? Huh? Yeah, so anyways I learned martial arts to learn how to lose my sparring matches with utmost sportsmanship and humility. Anytime a student wants to train with me I simply let them beat my ass, then I shake their hand and we begin our first lesson.
* snicker snicker* 
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 11:52 AM
Quote:
First, saying which of these organizations trumps another would be a circular arguement either side could make. The style was given to Nagamine's son at the time of his death. However, Taba (and a few other Matsubayashi masters) were of higher rank and had more training under Nagamine at the time. Whether more weight is given to rank and time training or who heads the parent style is a debate either side can justify.
exactly my point. association says nothing as to ability, understanding or propegation of the essence.
before any others protecting their interests swoop down on the thread - I'm not pointing out faults or questioning the people mentioned or the organizations referenced. I'm illustrating with example the fallacy of relying upon 'credentials on paper' as oppossed to actual experience with the Art.
harlan, sorry to have misinterpreted the spirit of your thread.
problems with using association/affiliation/organization as a credential - Some that are new are excellent. some that are long-established are poor. and vice-versa. some are certificate mills, some have strict standards. some have 'direct lineage' with poor representation of that lineage. some have indirect lineage with a more complete transmission of the essence.
...and then all the grey in-between. To someone just coming into the MA world, paper credentials don't mean a whole lot, but at the same time, too much.
I'd say the best credential a newbie can consider is the vibe they get after a 5 minute conversation with the instructor.
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 11:54 AM
'karate credentials'
If we are talking about an adult class then for me the following is a really good guide,
1. is the actulal training fit for it's suggested 'purpose', example sports, self defence or life development ? Is it a combination of these or is it specific, is it something else?
2. does the instructor have good general life experience and specific experience in the above?
3. is the instructor basically a good guy/gal, no need for huge spiritual journeys really, is it someone you can be in a student-teacher 'relasionship' with long term (that doesn't mean you have to like them all the time), someone you can trust, rely on ?
4. does the instructor walk the walk, or do they talk the talk ? It's important for an instructor to lead by good technical/ability example, within reason of course.
Posted by: butterfly
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 12:07 PM
Quote:
...and then all the grey in-between. To someone just coming into the MA world, paper credentials don't mean a whole lot, but at the same time, too much.
I'd say the best credential a newbie can consider is the vibe they get after a 5 minute conversation with the instructor.
Exactly! But here's the problem: The new, potential student has no way of gauging sincerity from a huckster, and the trappings of officialdom that some less official folk want to attach themselves to bring about an implication of lineage, will not be understood or known by the newbie.
They will see this as the regular way things are and may not be in a position to gauge ability.
It's the same thing that happens if you are in a McDojo and BBs are awarded after 1-3 years as the norm, and you think this is standard practice. Therefore, it's not a problem to have 5th degree BB who has been studing for 10 years and are 15 years old. You digest what is being presented and it becomes the defacto sensibility that you measure all other disciplines by.
It's to the new student that traceable lineage needs to be ascertained and to the new student who must needs be more careful since an eye to see ability may not be developed either.
Posted by: oldman
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 12:12 PM
Quote:
Therefore, it's not a problem to have 5th degree BB who has been studing for 10 years and are 15 years old.
We prefer our students not start studing until they are of legal age, if at all.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 12:26 PM
I don't think its rude to ask for credentials if you know what you are talking about or looking for. For a parent to ask why should I let you teach my child? I think is a valid question. I usually tell them the benifit of health, fitness and respect, stop one of the similar age green belts or 7 kyu. Have the parent touch the stomach and arms of his (joy stix pushing) child, then use his index finger and touch the students. Watch and listen how the student addresses his elders. Usually that sells them. Learning to fight is just part of the whole.
I'm on board with credentials here in the USA start and stop with the immediate or senior Instructor, if directly linked. I've seen some dojos that are linked by sanction with the head Sensei traveling from Okinawa (or within the USA) to the satellite/branch dojos, breed soild technicains. If directly linked not a visiting instructor.
Though mail order sanctioned dojos may not follow the technicail standards when the certificate is mail ordered & not directly linked. Usually direct linked/branch dojos/Instructors follow the protocol of good effective techniques and sometimes ethics.
Bottom line imho, credentials have gone full circle and back to the way it was, you are as good as your training effort and teachining. I know plenty of Instructors that have trained students/now Senseis, that are far better then they were in their prime, and I know some students that are now teachers that couldn't carry their old Sensei jock strap in his prime. Theres some pride to be taken either way.
Your training efforts eventually becomes your credentials not what you got on the wall or who your teacher is or was. Its what you've sharpened and horned.
Some people have solid credentials but have stopped training years ago, so are they still effective? The knowledge can't be taken away but the timing and effective skill can and does diminished.
Posted by: medulanet
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 04:28 PM
I think the bottom line is ability trumphs any "paper" you can produce to prove your credentials. In fact, if one uses this "paper" to justify their credentials rather than their ability or that of their students, something is seriously wrong.
As far as buying certificates and dues and such that exists in EVERY organization. I know for a fact that it is/was a part of Shogen Ryu as well. That's not an insult, but its just a part of the politics of EVERY organization. If you are a part of one and believe these things do not exist you are fooling yourself.
Posted by: hedkikr
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 04:31 PM
"Credentials? I don't need no stinkin' credentials"
Posted by: Saisho
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 05:48 PM
Marcel, I don't think Ed is attacking me. I appreciate his opinions and his knowledge. He is wrong on a few things and uneducated on a few.
First, I have said that I don't think you can give karate credentials except for what you can do and sometimes people can't even see what you are showing them.
Are there Shogen-Ryu dojos in Okinawa? Yes. Maeda Sensei, Tamaki Sensei, Tokashiki Sensei and Ikehara Sensei. Shiroma Sensei had one, but I think he is retired.
Mastin is not in Dayton. He is in Cincinnati and I speak with him often.
I did train with some of the self appointed masters. While they are self appointed masters, they did receive legitimate rank from Osensei (some as high as 7th-Dan). As I mentioned, there is no way for me to 'prove' to anyone that I train directly with Taba Sensei.
Are there any unskilled people in Shogen-Ryu? Yes. However, Taba Sensei does not grant dojo licenses to people until he has seen them for an extended period and believes they meet his standard. No one I have met from Okinawa is without a great deal of skill.
Who promoted him? I believe it was Miyahira Sensei, President of the All Okinawa Shorin-Ryu.
As for Takayoshi Sensei 'Trumping' Taba Sensei.... Yes, Takayoshi was given the system, but at that time he was an 8th-Dan (although he claimed 9th) and not even a member of the board. Taba Sensei was the only active 9th-Dan, the President of Matsubayashi-Ryu and had been the President for many years prior to Osensei's passing.
Shogen-Ryu is rather new. The three people that started it are certainly not. Taba Sensei, Tamaki Sensei and SHiroma Sensei are very well known. Also, I agree that new orgs. sometimes recruit by giving rank. Taba Sensei refuses to do so and we have had people want to join and then get upset because they were not immediately promoted. One in particular left and ended up getting his 7th. No one knows from where.
In fact, I am only a 5th-Dan and I am in the top 10 ranking people.
Lastly, just because a person is an M.D., does not mean they know a lot about physical anatomy. Depending on their field, they may know a lot or the may know very little and know a lot about diseases and medicine.
Knowing how long a person has trained with an instructor is not a very good credential either. I have learned more in the past 5 years of training with Taba Sensei than I did in my first 15+. My first instructor was very good, but it was still night and day. Lineage is a good indicator of skill if you can legitimately trace it back (and what prospects would do that).
Posted by: BrianS
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 07:00 PM
Quote:
Lineage is a good indicator of skill if you can legitimately trace it back (and what prospects would do that).
Holy crap. Do you really believe that? 
Posted by: JMWcorwin
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 07:02 PM
Look really closely... I've got 'em pasted on the bottom of my right foot.
Posted by: medulanet
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 07:30 PM
Quote:
In fact, I am only a 5th-Dan and I am in the top 10 ranking people.
Actually, I was under the impression that 5th Dan is a relatively high rank. Is it not the rank where you are tested for all of the skills present in Shorin Ryu? Not to say that one does not advance technically beyond 5th Dan, but at that rank you should be legit. And by legit I mean technically excellent and not one to triffle with. Basically a 5th Dan is NO JOKE in karate. As for credentials, if karate ranks could be considered a credential, I would think 5th Dan would be an impressive one.
Posted by: Saisho
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 08:31 PM
Quote:
Quote:
In fact, I am only a 5th-Dan and I am in the top 10 ranking people.
Actually, I was under the impression that 5th Dan is a relatively high rank. Is it not the rank where you are tested for all of the skills present in Shorin Ryu? Not to say that one does not advance technically beyond 5th Dan, but at that rank you should be legit. And by legit I mean technically excellent and not one to triffle with. Basically a 5th Dan is NO JOKE in karate. As for credentials, if karate ranks could be considered a credential, I would think 5th Dan would be an impressive one.
I remember when I started training, 5th-Dans were few and far between. I told myself that I would hope to be able to reach that some day. Now that I am there, I see ways that I can improve. I consider my rank well earned and deserved, but to the lay person who sees higher ranks everywhere, it doesn't say much. They can not see that my test actually spanned over two years. Taba Sensei told me a list of things he wanted me to work on and correct. Two years later, and spur of the moment, he tested me and recalling the list from his memory told me that I had done what he asked and corrected everything (then he gave me a longer list).
As for knowing all of the skills.... 5th-Dan is the first rank that one is eligible for Renshi, the first of the three 'Master' titles. However, it is not automatic with Taba Sensei and I don't expect to see it anytime soon. I know all of the material and he has evaluated my skills and my ability to teach, but as you said, there is still technical advancement to be made.
Posted by: Saisho
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 08:46 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Lineage is a good indicator of skill if you can legitimately trace it back (and what prospects would do that).
Holy crap. Do you really believe that?
Yes I do. Let me put it into perspective for you, so you can see what I mean. Keep in mind that this is without seeing the skills of a person.
I am going to assume that you are a highly skilled person and it is commonly known that you are. Would you promote someone that you did not feel deserved it? Lets assume not.
So, I meet someone who says (and can show) that they are a shodan under the teachings of BrianS. I should have a good understanding of what quality this person is for you to have promoted them to such a rank.
Next, I meet someone who says they trained under BrianS for 6 years and then began training under JoeSchmoe for a couple of years and received their Shodan. If I know of JoeSchmoe, I can base my understanding of the persons expected skills off of what I know. If I do not know JoeSchmoe, I would have to wonder why you, a skilled and demanding instructor, did not promote this person and I would have to base my judgement of the persons expected skill off of the fact that you did not promote them.
You see, it only works in the positive. Does that mean that the second person is not skilled? No. It means that I don't know, but I should be able to guess how good the first person is. Lineage will give credit or discredit if the start of the lineage is known to be good or bad. If you don't know, the process falls apart.
You see, it doesn't work in the real world (as I implied in my original statement). There are too many people that give rank out and accept undeserved rank. This, of course, is my opinion.
Posted by: Victor Smith
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 09:27 PM
Tony,
You write "just because a person is an M.D., does not mean they know a lot about physical anatomy. Depending on their field, they may know a lot or the may know very little and know a lot about diseases and medicine."
I'm pretty sure this isn't correct. Back in my day my friends attending Medical School at Temple had to take 4 semesters of anatomy (essentially cavader disection), just as physical therapists took 2 semesters and dentists took one semeseter back then.
I just took a look at the Harvard Medical Schohol curricula and it appears that even today that remains somewhat a constant though I'm sure course content has changed.
While medical specilization does make the MD move in different directions, they all start with the same beginning, for nobody really is sure where their studies will lead in the long run.
Of course 4 semesters of dissection doesn't make one an expert, they know a heck of a lot more than those who haven't done that too.
As far as standards in the martial arts, I reject that titles, and rank mean much, instead it's what a person can do or really teach that matters.
In our group the beginning qualification for an instructor is 15 continous years training under the same instructor, and that is just the beginning.
For outside students or instructors joining the program, regardless of the number of years they've studied, the qualification to teach what we share is the same. And there's no short cut, because to teach what we're sharing you first have to walk the same walk.
I don't seek students, they have to work to know we exist, but they seem to find us the same.
Posted by: Saisho
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 11:35 PM
Quote:
I reject that titles, and rank mean much, instead it's what a person can do or really teach that matters..... In our group the beginning qualification for an instructor is 15 continous years training under the same instructor, and that is just the beginning.
I would say that titles do mean something to you, you just have higher standards.
As for the M.D. comment I made, I thought it might be misunderstood. In my M.S. in Anatomy degree program, we had the same courses and instructors that taught for the Medical School. Doctors are taught a good deal. However, depending on the field, they do not always use the knowledge and if they are doing something that doesn't require Neuro/Muscular/Skeletal (maybe like dermatology or OB-GYN), they likely will forget much of what they learned regarding Neuro/Muscular/Skeletal issues. I interact with doctors of all types and most are brilliant in their areas, but not so knowledgeable in others.
It is always a challenge to get complete ideas accross in forum posts.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/05/07 11:38 PM
a person could have a PhD and be top 1% in anatomy or any other field - they could write and lecture a dissertation on body mechanics and vital areas as it relates to MA while at the same time, not be able to punch their way out of a wet paper bag.
similarly, someone could prove a paper lineage thru association which is direct and impressive, but perhaps have less than 10 hours of actually being trained by people IN that particular lineage.
isn't it conceivable that someone could have trained for 15 years with a vanilla shorin group, make 4th dan, then start a dojo. THEN, they switch association to a more impressive on-paper lineage, take a seminar or two with the founder of the association every 1 or 2 years, rank to 5th dan, and suddenly 'forget' to mention or gloss over where their past training actually comes from? Literally, overnight they could go from 4th dan in vanilla ryu, to 5th dan in a direct lineage...with no significant difference in the Art they propegated as a vanilla-ryu sensei. a paper tiger.
In that hypothetical, what the prospective student is really getting, is an instructor from the vanilla karate, who took a few seminars/classes from the founder of an association who has a credible lineage/background.
it's called: qualification by association - and it's more often bunk. The reason it's largely not trustworthy as an indicator is since that link to the association could be more financial/political than in actual Art transmission. Thats not guarenteeing it's always the case, but since it IS hard to prove; there will always be those taking advantage of that loophole. A hint to whether or not you are dealing with a paper tiger sensei, is if they highlight and stress their association as 'proof' of their art as oppossed to where their instruction actually comes from.
it's a subtle difference - do they say "I've been associated for X years with Y organization headed by 10th dan Mr. Z" or do they word it "I've trained X years directly under 10th dan Mr. Z"
Those subtleties are not always picked up on by the wide-eyed prospective student gazing at all the certificates on the wall as the instructor mentions his association while pointing to them.
in order for someone to honestly claim a draw from a particular teacher - enough to propegate that particular art/training method, they have to had trained consistantly and directly with that particular teacher for years. not a once a year session when he's in town during a tour.
again, since it's nearly impossible for a prospective student to determine the amount of actual training the teacher received from the associated lineage, it does not *necessarily* carry much weight as a credential....is my warning and point.
as people warn: "Caveat Empor"...I just like to try and spell things out.
bottom line: are you getting a teacher that mostly represents the propegation of an association, or mostly represents the transmission of the art?
I happen to be in the camp of thought that says you don't even need association, rank and title structures in order to transmit an art. Then again, I don't think the franchise business model is a good one for propegating a martial art.
someone asks for credentials, I'd say just take a class. if you like it, then keep going...if you don't like it, then stop going. If they have a contract, or 'pay up-front' policy, then don't even bother.
Posted by: Saisho
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/06/07 08:35 AM
Ed, I agree 100%. I am speaking of how things should work (I think I made that statement) and you are speaking of how most people operate. I know that is how it is, but I also know that 99.9% of the people that would come to take classes would not know to ask the important questions they should.
Posted by: Ironfoot
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/08/07 03:48 PM
Quote:
Quote:
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Lineage is a good indicator of skill if you can legitimately trace it back (and what prospects would do that).
Holy crap. Do you really believe that?
Yes I do. ...
OK, so do I have the record for nested quotes??
I think who you got your rank from is VERY indicative of how good you are. I don't care if it's some 10th degree fraud, and there have been cases of legitimate masters selling rank on their death beds. However if an excellent karateka not known for passing out promotions like candy gave you a high rank, I've got to believe you earned it.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/08/07 04:23 PM
What I like about our animal class is that its an open format, you are not in Gi or Belt, you are in jeans and T-shirt or a jogging suit. The proof of rank is in the pudding most people with skill and tenacity comes to the top. You are not working with just your student most people barely know you at times. But after a short while people know who each fighter is and what he is capable of.
Rank is important to the organizational chart of a system structure of a class and grading process. And who it comes from is important if you actually trained and bare some resemblances to the Instructors techniques. But if one gets rank in a manner suggested above its just wallpaper and advertisement for someone else accomplishments. Karate Credentials should be done on a individual scale base on all these factors discussed.
Usually if you know the Sensei, you know what to expect from his students. This is true I believe.
Posted by: Ironfoot
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/10/07 09:19 AM
Well put, Neko. You've got to prove it every day. If I go trotting my obi into another dojo, I should show commenserate skill. It doesn't take long for people to realize the true pecking order.
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 10/11/07 07:17 AM
TEST
Posted by: shantungks
Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? - 11/03/07 10:23 PM
Very interesting topic but the question has not been answer yet!! At least that is what I think!1
1. I believe lineage is important in the sense that it would indicate who you have trained with. When one denies our teachers or when one learned from well, pretty much that speaks a lot about you. Many out there are 10 DAN's but they never say where they learned. Some self appointed their 10th Dan. In todays age of internet one can find out almost inmediately who you trained with. Fraud?
2. 10th Dan? Well only in those who adopted the Japanese system of grading but how about those who do not use belt ranking? !0th Dan and only 50 years old with only 30 years of training?? Pretty shady there!!!
3. I would ask about the moves!! Any 5th dan or above should be able to explain a move clearly and have many applications for those moves.
So for me would be who did you trained under? How long? Yes they are going to give me the whole paper deal here by now. If it's one of those newly created arts then it would be who did he trained under and for how long?
What is the purpose of my training? Getting medals and trophies or actually learning the intricacies of the bodies and it's weaknesses and ideal areas to hit.
How much do they charge per month? Check the other schools. How many classes for that price? Are they pushing a name as they try to convince you to sign up? HOw many black belts do they have? How long it takes to become one? Age restrictions to become a blackbelt?
Yes I do and have asked all these questions before. I do not want to waste my time. Like I did before!