Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or not?

Posted by: Neko456

Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or not? - 08/20/07 01:51 PM

Menjin Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or not?

I personally am impressed my Senseis would walk around with these badges of honor, sometimes other higher rank Instructors would questions why they didn't treat the limb with oniment to heal the bruising. But at Sandan thru Godan it was the mark of dilgent work, or tooling.

But at 70+ Menjin Hagashinona hands looked like a young Sandan hands not treated with oniment, who else felt at 70 wow I'm impressed. But noticed that the Uchei-ryu Sensei seemed as powerful but hands were less briused.

I'm impressed bc its the way I was brought up, but I don't know if I want my hands looking that way at 70. Of course I'm not one of the Head figures of Okinawan Goju-ryu and I do other things besides Karate in my life.

At 70+ he still moves pretty smooth!!!
Would you want Gorilla paws at 70?

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or not? - 08/20/07 10:31 PM

do you mean Morio Higaonna?
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or not? - 08/20/07 11:54 PM

Yes I was talking about his appearance in the Human Weapon series Higaonna Sensei hands has always showed heavy conditioning evident in his ability to strike the boulder.

But at 70+ would you want your hands showing that kind of conditioning.

By the was I've always sometimes misspelled Higaonna and Nahate's Machu's name incorrectly. And Menjin is a title given for MA proficency not a mispelling Morio's his 1st name.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or not? - 08/21/07 02:15 AM

I had the good fortune of meeting and training with Morio Higaonna Sensei (after about 15 years!)again recently for a session on the chiishi, it was superb.

Yes his hands are heavily conditioned, but karate is what he does and in many ways represents (its his job),

he follows the older model of training which most would consider a little much, me included - for myself.

But IMO his attitude and example of training should be respected, he is looking very well on it and has incrediable ability.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or not? - 08/21/07 03:02 PM

There is no doubt that he is a Menjin (A person with skills beyond normal proficency means), as my Instructor would call him. But in a personal question would you want hands that heavy conditioned at 70?

I know its not kosher to question the ways of a Master, but at some point you do have an opinion, in hindsight looking toward the future and using Morio Higonna Sensei as an example. Anybody would want his skill and fitness at 70+, plus but his heavily conditioned hands I think not.

And I kinda favor hand/tool conditoning.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or not? - 08/21/07 06:32 PM

for him its perfect, for me I would want something different,

So no I would not want hands that conditioned at 70 years of age, or at 34 years of age - ie right now.



Im simply not, nor would I want to be.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or not? - 08/21/07 07:46 PM

Neko, I've never heard of the title "Menjin". It sounded funny to me especially since you didn't know his real name (Morio Higaona). I recalled that Higaona Sensei has been featured in ads for " Meijin " Karate Gi:

http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Products/Pages/store.htm

I think that's what you were thinking about.

If there's a Japanese-speaker out there who can confirm or discredit my interpretation, let's hear it.
Posted by: Saisho

Re: Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or not? - 08/21/07 07:57 PM

I believe that 'Meijin' translates as 'champion' and is a title that is given to the champion of a large tournament. Some people in the Western World have adopted it as just another in a long line of improper, misunderstood, rediculous, egotistical titles (pick the term you like best).
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or not? - 08/21/07 11:32 PM

It was explained to me as Menjin was like a wizard or a superior Master of his art, it had nothing to do with tournament fighting or Champion. At the time that I heard the term this system rarely tournament sparred. There was all types of dojo sparring but they rarely sparred outside the dojo, for a trophy or title.

But I'm not saying that it couldn't have that definition, niether one of us speak Okinawan, just Karate dojo terms.
But it wasn't introduced/defined to me that way.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or not? - 08/21/07 11:53 PM

It wasn't that I didn't know his name, it was that I crossed the spelling of his name, of course Kanryo Higashiona wasn't on The Human Weapon, though I have seen his lastname spelled like Morio's. I admitt that I made a mistake, I have numerous tapes of the Man, and know that he is well thought of as a Goju Master. But I'm just a distance fan of his, I at one time thought that he was a decent of Machu, until I double checked the last name spelling, and found that sometimes it spell identical. When I'm at work I'm just typing between two screens, typing off the cuff of my thoughts.
My bad.

I guess again hang the messager. Would you want heavy conditioned hands at 70+ years old? Was the question not that my Instructor and I were wrong in defining Meijin or Menjin, I've never seen that on his Gi, i don't watch his every move.

Or if Kanryo or Morio have same name spelling.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or n - 08/22/07 01:32 AM

Oooh, touchy...

I'm not picking on you because I'm always correcting people who use the words "Numchucks", Nunchucks", "Chukka-sticks" (you get the point). I believe that MA are both art & science of details & don't think you can pick & choose which details you will ignore - everything from belt-tying to rhythm of attack.

So ask the question but be open to correction.

owari
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or n - 08/22/07 09:04 AM

I really don't think thats being touchy, you have technical genius that surfing the net that want to put everything in there world. Some system don't wear belts or stress any rhythm. Are you saying that they can't join in.

I understand that asking a questions leave you and the question in jepordy. But try to at least add some meat to the topic after you drink from your holy grail.

I will admitt that its sometimes hard to answer a question, if you don't know what or who it refers to. As I mentioned my bad. But as the thread went on HW, Goju, C-hands & Higanona.

So really who is being the touchy one?
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or n - 08/22/07 11:59 AM

I think I understand what you're trying to say but your grammer leads me to believe that you're not a native English speaker. I apologize in advance.

So to answer your question, for the majority of practitioners, it's not necessary to go to the extreme Higaona Sensei has. Tak Kubota has done the same thing but lately, he's backed off a bit. It's not so much an issue of "honing his blade" (his hands are hard enough) but his dedication to his art. Anything less & he will feel that he hasn't done justice to his karate from an internal perspective.

owari
Posted by: schanne

Re: Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or n - 08/22/07 03:01 PM

Mmmmm...very well put, great wording.

Anything less & he will feel that he hasn't done justice to his karate from an internal perspective.
Posted by: Usenthemighty

Re: Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or n - 08/23/07 09:24 AM

Yea, I for one am impressed. Provided I can still open and close my hands as well as not have arthritis, then yea, I would love to have hands like that.
Posted by: haze

Re: Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or n - 08/24/07 06:39 AM

As far as I can tell;
Meijin , literally translated, means "Brilliant Man."
Posted by: Ironfoot

Re: Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or not? - 08/24/07 08:42 AM

My sensei, who's in his 60s, never "conditioned" his hands. His forte is tuite (but then again, don't let him strike you!). Doesn't believe in breaking, either. So there's different schools of thought.

I've conditioned my hands so that striking a person - even catching them on a part of the skull I wan't aiming for -won't hurt them (the hands, not the person!). Boulders, I care less about. If they attack me, I think sidestepping would be best.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or not? - 08/24/07 12:22 PM

David - As far as I can tell;
Meijin , literally translated, means "Brilliant Man."

My reply to David - Thats closer to what my Sensei intended, I don't think he was refering to these Masters that he spoke of as Tourney Champs, because he was not impressed with Tournament sparring. Now this doesn't mean that Rodrick was right in his use of the word, but that your translation is closer to what he meant. Again he couldn't really speak in the Okinwans language probably repeating what his Okinawan teacher or Japanese senior student stated. Or what he thought they said.

Iron...
I'm in the middle I believe in tooling but I believe now in medication to hide the affect of tooling.

As a younger man say a 1st kyu through Sandan maybe Godan 18-34-50 yr old, maybe walking around with torn open callouses and dead skin hanging off your knuckles maybe?

Probably at 50 you are almost through touching young soft womens legs, but at 70+ I don't know? I still see it as a sign of dedication to his art, but this is just mo.

I'm impressed but I don't think I'll follow. I want a strong fist/hand but I want it to look soft, well softer then a small rough edged Boulder or Brillo pad!

This is to you Master Higanona.

Posted by: Sempeirobot

Re: Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or not? - 09/11/07 07:42 PM

I'm impressed...

Some see Karate, in part, as becoming stronger and stronger...'till death...

Especially these old school types (like Master Higanona or those who trained under Mas Oyama)...

Those guys would be training in the dojo when strangers would walk in and challenge them...According to one of his students, Mas Oyama would tell him: "send that man to the hospital!"

I mean, these guys were (and still are, despite being 60+ years old), hardcore...they learned the martial art in the dojo, but learned how to fight in the bars after training...

For them, training never gets easier...if so, you're not doing it right...

If your focus is obliterating what you punch, I don't think the hardness of human bone would stop you...

when you're tired of doing knuckle pushups on hardwood, you really should go punch some steel, concrete or stone...

If you don't, your hand may still be hard enough to go though bone in a fight, but how are you going to slice through four feet of ice with hands that haven't been trained on something at least as hard?

It really depends on what your Karate priorities are...do those priorities include breaking really hard things?

If so, I wouldn't try it if you are not willing to at least do some knuckle pushups to strengthen your hands.

'Cause if what you are striking doesn't break...your hand or foot just might break trying...

SempaiRobot
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or not? - 09/12/07 11:15 AM

Thats a nice explaination of why. But really that look is just for show, you can have heavily conditioned hands and treat them and they look nearly normal. As mentioned before it shows his dedication to being a Karate Man at 60-70 years old.

As for challenging him in his dojo out of respect for him you have to fight his best students 1st then eventually fight him. Usually having been part of 70s-80s challenge matches to defend a dojo, I know you never get past the dojos best of the best. Challenging a dojo is a poor decision. BC as you fight the next opponent is checking out what you do and you are getting tired now he knows you. You're dead meat, I'd never, never do that its stupid, disrespectful and not much chance for success. Thats another topic anyway.

I agree that its impressive and see its potential but he could treat the hand and they wouldn't look like little boulders on his wrist, but its his calling card.

We all know you can break or tear/screcht ligaments without huge calloused knuckles but it does help in KO, shocking and pentertation power, out of gloves. My hands are ugly/conditioned but not as conditioned/ugly as his. No I'm not jealous but I am impressed in a way, old as he is.
Posted by: Sempeirobot

Re: Hagashinona's hand conditioning impressed or not? - 09/12/07 04:28 PM

Neko:

I don't know how to condition hands without them getting the callouses - if you're into hitting hard things...

I agree though that they don't have to look like crap all the time...my teacher files them with an emory board to keep them smoothe...

Still, they look like little mountains, at least to me...

I remember when I met him (I was friends with him before I started Karate or knew that he did Karate) I did not immediately notice the callouses on his hands.

I think they are very noticeable to Karate guys. Others sometimes notice, but not always.

So, if you keep 'em filed smoothe, they don't really look that obvious nor outrageous.

As for challenging a dojo, I don't do that either...nor do I frequent rough biker bars (any more) where a fight is not that hard to find...

However, I know that the no pads, full contact sparring I did with my teacher (who did do regular bar fighting in the past) gives me no worries since it's unlikely to find oneself up against someone as good as him.

Also, my "knobby" knuckles, which do sometimes peel, split, crack and generally get ripped off, give me more confidence to punch the hard bone of someone's skull, if I have to, than if I had hands that were just used to a heavy bag...