This is what I am talking about

I did a body mechanics class a couple of years ago at the Okinawan Karate Union summer seminar, and my uke was a volunteer black belt that had never seen or trained with me before. I was especially careful not to hit any "critical" places, or to cause him too much agony with kyusho strikes.

It was a great class, and when it was over, the same kind of discussions were held... "would this work?"... "do you hit like this...?" etc... with a million different questions being asked. What put a stop to it was the uke himself telling everyone... "I don't know what those strikes looked like from your perspective, but he lit my a$$ up every time he touched me..."

I was being exceedingly gentle with him, and he told me later that it still almost put him out a couple of times. Hitting the nerves and points in the right order, and at the right "weight" of strike, and proper angle, is what makes kyusho so deadly because the body is predictable... and strikes to certain nerves cause specific reactions, whether it's to raise the blood pressure, increase the heart rate, or cause a blackout. It isn't something you learn in a seminar... or in a "few classes". It takes concentrated study, and an understanding of exactly what's going on... which can take years to absorb.

Kyusho jitsu isn't just "points", but "methods of hitting the body"... so, as Oyata Sensei was showing, the 5-finger strike may be more applicable in one area of striking than the fist... and the "crane's head" may be better suited in another spot. It all depends on application, body structure, nerve locations, and how the attack is structured, so you know where to go for defense. It takes a lot of "scenario training" and rote practice (much of it without touching each other) to get the movements correct.

If you noticed, Oyata Sensei was using some very fluid karate blocks and strikes in his kyusho hits, so his method looks much like slapping, but there are some "hidden skills" inside of that, so it isn't just simply "hitting the points", but a lot of method, sequence, correct angle, etc. that add up to some very effective, yet "light" strikes.

Kyusho can be deadly, and have long term effects on the ukes if they don't get proper care. Points in the wrist affect the lungs, and a lot of jujutsu and Aikido practitioners develop asthma and respiratory problems if they take too much abuse there without getting the proper "balancing techniques" applied to counter the damage.

While there aren't really a lot of "secrets" left in the martial arts, there is a lot of information that is still below the surface. When we talk about "living the martial way", it's because to learn that information requires more than just showing up to train twice a week. It takes study both inside and outside the dojo, and training that, like Oyata Sensei's, seems a bit rough on the uke.

There's no "easy way" to teach shime waza (chokes) without putting someone in a hazardous position of being choked out, and needing resucitation, so learning the skills involves "getting involved". It also involves the amount of knowledge your teacher has, and how well they can pass it on to their students.

If you remember what Miyagi said in the "Karate Kid"... "everything not as it seems"...

It was very true...

I really wish I could understand the audio on these clips

I recognize some things and can see how they are effective. Others, I just don't quite buy into though I'm skeptically open minded.

This is the same ridirick that people have about Dim Mak, if he swing wild a furyious how can you pin point these shots. Like any move you have to set it up or intercept it as in Taki Oyata drills (notice that some did look kata or formal like, I really like tha cat stance that almost was a knee to the grion). Anyway back to topic you set these movements up as finsihing moves after or before he builds up a head of steam. As if setting up a sweep, he feeds you a motion you respond. A sweep that imbalance would be a good chance to try a merdian strike.

I still wonder how they would work with the attackers adrenalin pumping and in the full fury of a fight. Should you shock them with a fist attack then close out with the merdian finish. Or could U trust a twisting finger thrust to torso as a stopper?

From what I understand some genetic structures are immune to some PP strikes you have to double strike these people.

I'm aware that really learning requires some actual doing. As I said before I've been put out a few times by my instructors and we routinely put some hurt on each other when we have the technique basics down, just for the reason that you don't know until you've felt it. It sticks better. When I do train with the other instructors the hurt we put on each other is always given and recieved with love. ( you should understand the way I put that )

But, I have known some black belts in the past who were just plain sadistic. They enjoyed REALLY hurting people and felt they had the right to do so. I've seen a few people permanently disabled by these sadists. "It's only a red belt, he doesn't need that shoulder right?"

So, once again, I don't know if that's the case with this Master or not. I was simply asking if the poster knew or not. A little pain in the pursuit of what we're after is necessary and acceptable. But a Master shouldn't be torturing his students for his own amusement.

respectfully,

Well,

I won't debate the validity of this guy's technique as I've never trained with him; I don't know. And I don't think it's worthwhile to bad mouth other styles, especially if you haven't trained in that style. I have seen several black belts go out in demos from these kinds of strikes done very easily. ( and I'm talking demos not of this style, the uke was not planning to be ko'd)

However, I have seen video (on youtube I think) of one of Dillman's top guys going to a BJJ studio in Chicago I think and trying their "no touch ko's". Look it up and make your own decisions on that stuff. Or go to a seminar and volunteer.

But be careful about casting judgements without empirical evidence. You want to know if they work? Find one of these guys and have him demonstrate on you with you resisting. You'll get an answer one way or the other.

From other seminars I know they work on a uke but my question from my experince will it work when the furs flying. And let me say I'm, not bad mouthing any style or method. I'm just asking a question in the midst of battle how are people affected by medrian strikes?

In my experince you have slow them down or take them down from their adrenlin high and then shut them down with merdian strike or any finishing move. I was only viewing the possibilities from my limited use of them. Usually they set up the sequence that finish, but rarely have the guy just fell out as in the video. So really I was talking about my weakness. There is a good case that these PP strikes work for Master Oyata, as the video shows.

But we all know demos are different then acutal use. I also question sometimes Master Oyata doesn't go in for the Chi releaseing arm, back or neck rub (That revises the uke).
Almost like he didn't expect to them KO, them. Could have been just for the demo purpose. I noticed sometimes he did.
It might just be me, who knows how they planned to end the demo. I'm not bad mouthing just something I noticed.

I've been to Merdian strike seminars and witness one person very vurnerable to these methods and others not affected. I was working with another BB 6'1 260lb guy (I'm approx the same size) and we both were saying "No Mas!!" loudly.

But there were several seminar particpates working with the Seminar Instructor at times, that were build differently that had to be struck in two places at the same time or three alternated areas in order for them to say "No Mas" = (I mean show or feel the affect of the points being manipulated.) The Guru expressed the same thought that genetics structure (build) effects some merdian points. And demo the way around that which equalled more pain or stunning.

So I don't question the Master in the video or Bad mouth any system. I am only questioning my skills or of lack of in merdian application and asking for like or different opinions.

Let it be known that I'm impressed as hell, his demos are faster and more flashier/trad based then Dillman's method, but the results are the same.

well met.

I think we're basically on the same page.

From my conversations with people who were used as Ukes at Taikas seminars, normally yudansha, his or others, that they never knew what he was going to do.

One thing to be careful of is going to Dillman schools and would agree with JMW, go in with a full attack. That will at least test their skill.

There are people out there who will carelessly beat on people..which is wrong, but I believe it is right to do the techniques properly to show people what they are suppose to look and feel like (however not to the point of brutalizing)

Neko,

You asked "I also question sometimes Master Oyata doesn't go in for the Chi releaseing arm, back or neck rub (That revises the uke)."

"Almost like he didn't expect to them KO, them. Could have been just for the demo purpose. I noticed sometimes he did.
It might just be me, who knows how they planned to end the demo."

Perhaps it's just he knew in those cases it wasn't necessary.

I've viewed quite a few of Dillmans early video's from a friend who got them as a gift from Mr. Dillman. It seemed to me most of those who revival was being used on were just knocked down, and perhaps it was being a little overdone for audience effect.

Oyata Sensei didn't seem to be hurting his test subjects, just showing in that space what happened.

IMO for what it is worth, as we train for kyusho strikes (many very similar to the slaps to the neck points and back of skull demontrated in those clips) some kind of distraction to induce "stopping mind" in an attacker (teishin as sometimes called I think) is required before the strike. This might be physical-say a kick to the shin or strike to an arm point or fingers thrust towards the face before striking the neck-or might be verbal-say a confusing question to a likely attacker followed by a strike while his brain is engaged elsewhere briefly. Obviously for demos, this is unnecessary but for application probably essential.

B.