karate useless MA
Posted by: danny81
karate useless MA - 07/22/07 01:55 AM
this is a generaly thought now. most people think that black belts cant win a fight against a random guy and that karate doesnt work in a real fight etc etc. i dont practice karate but if you watch the original ufcs you will realize its obviously not the best but they still hung in there with the great MAs so i think karate actually is pretty good as a fighting style. i wanted to get your views on it
Posted by: Salek
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 02:22 AM
I was almost certian at the start of your post that I was going to be annoyed... Well it turned out to be harmless... But I, too, think that karate is not a useless art. Its not the art, its the person.
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 03:57 AM
I would say it is the manner and mindset someone trains with, their natural assets and their determination to 'win' at all costs that determines the effectivness of ones art, whatever the art.
with that in mind a good guess would be around 80% of modern karate is proberly not much use to your average person for defending themselves in reality........................my words and I do karate
Posted by: JKogas
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 09:51 AM
HOW one trains is vastly more important than WHAT they train. Obviously though, the "what" often determines the "how".
My personal view is that the practice of forms/kata does not enhance one's fighting ability to the degree that other methods do and, that such practice takes time away from the more functional practice (alive drilling and sparring, etc). That goes for ANY art that has forms - not just karate (silat, wing chun, etc).
The less time you have for "functional" training, the longer its going to take you to develop that proficiency and to maintain that proficiency.
Just my opinions.
-John
Posted by: MattJ
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 10:01 AM
Ditto what JKogas said.
Posted by: Joss
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 11:20 AM
Ditto JKogas. I think it can be taught "uselessly".
I think karate, overall, suffers schitzophrenia in that it doesn't know if it is a sport, a historic kata preservation club, a self defense art, or all of the above. At the dojo level this may be clearly established. But the public doesn't know this, and that is where most new students come from. This is a formula for confusion and, when expectations are not met, for hard feelings.
Posted by: jude33
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 11:22 AM
Quote:
I would say it is the manner and mindset someone trains with, their natural assets and thier determination to 'win' at all costs that determines the effectivness of ones art, whatever the art.
with that in mind a good guess would be around 80% of modern karate is proberly not much use to your average person for defending themselves in reality........................my words and I do karate
Hi Jim
well another is karate any good thread. My thoughts.
I would tend to agree with what supposedly passes as modern karate. But would you say the same about a thai boxing fight minus gloves? Now before I get flack about that comment I think there is a lot of parrellels between thai boxing and karate as indeed other arts.One school of thought says that it isnt the technique it is how the technique is trained. I agree with that statement.
My karate is somewhat basic and more than likely in need of a lot of additions but karate practiced, as Im lead to believe as it should be, is good enough to be used against any person in a none gloved confrontation .
Jude
Posted by: Taison
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 12:22 PM
I think Karate is useful.
Look at Daido-juku. 'nuff said about "usefulness"
-Taison out
and i wish that that 80% would drop the name karate and pick up something more fitting. something like sport sparing, or cardio kick boxing or what ever. if your in a gi and you move around like your doing a kata, dosen't make it karate. and just because you call it karate dosn't make it deadly by any strech of the imagination. sweat,blood tears, and partners that try to take your head off is what it takes. training is simply training. unless its...
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 03:06 PM
John, this isn't directed at you, just at the premise of this discussion...
while I agree that every training method doesn't suit everyone, just blanket-rolling karate off and throwing it away isn't the answer to self defense training either. I've been doing karate training a long time, and also Judo, jujutsu, Aikido, and weapons... so I don't feel that any one art has "the answer". It depends on a lot of circumstances. Think of attacks as questions, and defenses as "answers".
Personal health is one of the considerations too. While I've had techniques that would work great anytime, my recent health issues with my hip and back have caused me to have those techniques unavailable any more... so what does that mean? It means I need a new answer to those "attack" questions, and a reasonable response based on my current situation.
In the 1980's, I had a spin kick that would take down an elephant... but those same problems take that option away, so I have to have another answer. Is it in karate?.. maybe. Is it in jujutsu? Aikido? Judo? weapons?... just where do I go to "replace" that technique? The answer is that I go to "scenario training" and "work it out", using the techniques that I have available in my "toolbox".
Fighting is fighting... and the guy with the best tools usually wins. If he chooses poorly, he gets beat. If he doesn't have the tool, he loses. It isn't rocket science to understand that "not all training fits all situations", and even the invincible get their a$$es kicked when they don't have the answer at the time of attack. That doesn't negate anybody's art, just their application of it.
I watch all martial arts with a critical eye, and an analytical one... to see if what they advertise is actually what they deliver. The current craze is MMA, which is a "piece of this and a part of that" combined to create a fight for television. While the "crowd" thinks all these guys are invincible, they wouldn't last long in a lot of arenas where the questions to them are different and their responses had to be different. Punching techniques are one good example... it doesn't take much skill to sit on somebody's chest and frail the hell out of their head... while getting that position might take some grappling skills, the pummeling of somebody you have pinned down isn't really a skill... it's a "technique of opportunity" where almost any mechanics will work and while there's a referee there to stop the match, the damage is limited to the good judgement of the referee... which doesn't prove the "viability of any art" to me.
You have to understand fighting to understand the viability of an art. If it's "contest fighting", it's one thing... if it's "fighting for your life", it's entirely another. Do you use the technique to create an armlock, or to break the elbow and destroy their weapon?.. so the lengths to which technique is allowed to go also has a lot to do with how effective it is. How that art blends into other arts also is a consideration to how effective it is.
It's easy to start bashing other arts and talking about their weaknesses, while not acknowledging the weaknesses of your own. Those are a matter of training, training methods, and how you actually practice (real or scenario) and how "alive" that training is allowed to go. Is it "contest alive" or "real life alive"?
I've read a lot of "bashing" on these boards, usually expressed by someone training in another art that's just parroting what they hear in their gym or dojo. The most of the time, it's by "newbies" that know just enough to get killed in a fight, and need to show their bravado . Their attitude changes when they run into one of those 900 psi lunge punches from a karate master, or one of those 2200 psi roundhouse kicks.
It takes years to learn and understand fighting. While younger people have the ability and flexibility to do some amazing things, they don't necessarily have what it takes to win in the real world. The old saying "old age and treachery will defeat youth and skill" is more true than you'd want to admit. I've seen too many of the "deer in the lights looks" from youngsters that really thought they "had it" when they fought one of the older guys with a bigger toolbox of techniques. I've even done techniques on people who practiced the same technique, but didn't do it as well as I did, and see their eyes opened when they found out what could be involved in it.
Which arts are useless and which ones are not are just discussions. The real answers are found out on the floor and in the scenario where "all options are available" and winning and losing are a matter of who can walk away.
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 03:32 PM
'One school of thought says that it isnt the technique it is how the technique is trained. I agree with that statement.'
thai boxing is trained just fine for defending oneself IMO,and far superior to the 80% of 'karate',
I worked out for just under 2 years a long time ago and found it to be the toughest training I have ever expirenced. Not wishing to get in the ring these daysI have no need to train that way anymore, way to extreme on the body for little old me.
But im sure if a young karateka trained just like a thai boxer it would work just as well, for self defence, and that thai boxing can be improved on significantly for self defence, enter kata technique and concepts.
its all about how far you wish, or need to take things - relaity and paranoia are strange things.......
Posted by: medulanet
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 03:44 PM
Wrist, I'm confused. Are you saying that the only way to determine if a fighter's art is effective is if they are faced with a true life or death no rules street scenario? I don't know about you, but many times in a limited rules training/sparring session it is faily easy to see what holes are present in an individual's skills. If you can't stop a takedown, or prevent from being mounted and pounded on, or being controlled in the clinch, or a number of other things, then there is a serious problem with the fighting skills you have developed in your art.
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 04:28 PM
Quote:
If you can't stop a takedown, or prevent from being mounted and pounded on, or being controlled in the clinch, or a number of other things, then there is a serious problem with the fighting skills you have developed in your art.
And this is the big problem MMA has caused. You have determined there are problems in an art because it had trouble fighting within the rules of an MMA match. What you are missing is the huge toolbox of techniques you cannot use due to MMA rules.
MMA is a sport and that's fine, but it's hardly all encompassing. It also has flaws in terms of reality. How often have you seen a guy getiing lit up so he takes the fight to the ground to rest and recover? MMA rules (and common sense) prevent the other fighter from doing some nasty technique and is allowed only to grapple or try and get up etc...
How often have you seen a fighter put his head against the stomach of his opponent? Do you realize how many throws you could do from there, all of which have to be illegal as they would likely snap the neck, and there is no way to do them "softly".
My point is there is a world outside MMA, and MMA is not the determining factor in the quality of a Martial Art.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 04:35 PM
No, I'm just saying that "contests are contests" and "real life is real life". You can't write off one art or the other just because they have a weakness under the rules of the current contest.
If you couldn't stop a takedown using jujutsu or judo techniques, you'd have a problem, for they are "ground arts". If you couldn't block using "karate techniques" you'd have a problem. All arts have weaknesses and strengths, and they may or may not translate into the scenario where your contest rules are founded. That's why there isn't any justification for simply dismissing any art based on "contest". The proof is in the pudding... and if you think your art is better than anything else, it has to be ratcheted up to be tested completely.
I don't think in any contest I've ever seen a martial art tested to its limits, and without taking one to it's limit, I don't think anybody, regardless of how successful they are in a different art, can write it off.
Posted by: medulanet
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 05:26 PM
Kimo, my point is that if you have no grappling skill then you will have a problem no matter what techniques are allowed to you. If you cannot strike you have a problem no matter what techniques are allowed to you. I don't think of it in terms of winning or losing because I am not talking about fighting in the UFC or Rage in the Cage. I am talking about practical skill application. What if you are unable to apply your "nasty" defensive/offensive techniques? I see too many people unwilling to question what they do or except that they need to man up and and up their skill set.
Posted by: medulanet
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 05:30 PM
Wrist, I am saying just the opposite. If you cann't stop a takedown with your karate techniques you are in trouble. If you can't defeat striking techniques with the grappling art of choice you have a problem. In fighting you are usually beaten by what you don't know, not what you do.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 06:13 PM
Grady, I don't think that anyone mentioned ANYTHING about rules or contests here. Or, did I miss something?
Bottom line folks, if you're not boxing and wrestling in your training (regardless of art), you're not training in my opinion. Spend more time doing that sort of stuff and I can guarantee that you'll be better off than someone who just practices kata or dead two-man patterns until he's BLUE in the face.
Sure there's the need for drilling as well. No one is going to get better by simply sparring all the time either. But that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm merely talking about the need for resistance in ALL things training related. That says nothing about any particular style or approach.
-John
Posted by: Victor Smith
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 06:48 PM
1. Karate is not a martial art, it is not designed for the military.
2. Boxing is not a martial art, it is not designed for the military.
3. Wrestling is not a martial art, it is not designed for the military.
Yes, various units may include some of those practices in their drills, but the military is serious they use nuclear weapons, tanks, jet fighters, etc.
It is a very bad corruption of language to include the varions hand to hand disciplines as martial arts.
Karate has no rules, and it does include kata as one of its prime tools. The purpose of karate defensively is to break whatever comes offensively. The purpose of study is to work to develop those abilites, period.
The world is a large place and how far karate studies go varies a great deal from place to place. To try and lump all of the practices in one group is faulty logic.
On Okinawa the most common description of the best karate-ka is the one who lives the longest.
That seems a reasonable standard.
pleasantly,
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 07:43 PM
Hi John, you said this -
'Bottom line folks, if you're not boxing and wrestling in your training (regardless of art), you're not training in my opinion.'
and finish of nicely with -
'That says nothing about any particular style or approach.'
Actually John it does say plenty
very open minded John..................you really should be a karateman!
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 07:51 PM
Quote:
It is a very bad corruption of language to include the varions hand to hand disciplines as martial arts.
Ah the old language question. Do words mean what they mean or what people think they mean?
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 07:57 PM
Quote:
my point is that if you have no grappling skill then you will have a problem no matter what techniques are allowed to you.
Agreed and maybe I misundestood where you were going, my point is that MMA is not the test of a Martial Art, it may be "A" test of certain aspects sure.
Besides when in the real world am I going to let someone get ready before I try and hit them 
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 08:00 PM
Quote:
Bottom line folks, if you're not boxing and wrestling in your training (regardless of art), you're not training in my opinion.
I think you clarified when you mentioned style later in your post, but I would like this sentence a lot better if you said striking instead of boxing.
Small thing but I equate boxing with sport fighting and I don't apply striking in the same manner for self defense.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 08:09 PM
Kimo -
I understand completely and by my statement (to clarify), I mean the "delivery system" of boxing and not necessarily the sport of boxing. I see them as being the same yet different obviously. We (the gym I run) practice what's been labeled as "dirty boxing" so it's DEFINITELY not the same ring sport (although I'm not downplaying any sport boxers in terms of ability either).
IMO, the delivery system of boxing can be used for jabbing the eyes, punching the throat, punching the groin, elbows, knees, grabbing the back of the neck and punching (illegal in "sport" boxing), etc.
We're on the same page Kimo.
-John
Posted by: MattJ
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 08:15 PM
Quote:
It is a very bad corruption of language to include the varions hand to hand disciplines as martial arts.
Victor, I couldn't agree more. I truly believe that most (if not all) martial arts now are really practiced as sports ie; with rules, one way or the other. I started a thread here a while back with the same idea:
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=9#Post15926430
I think that acknowledging that all of us really do combat sports, as opposed to martial arts, would foster much more understanding between styles.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 09:04 PM
MattJ,
I think you've hit the nail on the head, but I would term them "combat arts" rather than sports... not all combat training has rules, so that's my take on what we do.
My rules are simple...
if you're within 500 yards... 300 Winchester Magnum
if you're within 100 yards... 7.62x39 SKS
if you're within 200 feet... .40 caliber pistol
if you're within 50 feet... 9x18 Makarov, .357 or .40 cal
after that... we fight... and I plan to hit you with whatever I have left... empty hand techniques are for when I run out of ammunition...
Start early enough, and the questions like this are moot...
Posted by: Victor Smith
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 09:12 PM
Kimo,
Communication is actually a channel issue. It has to go both ways to become more than noise.
Alfred Korzybski - General Semantics
1. The word is not the thing
2. The word is not all the thing
3. Words are self-reflexive.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 09:17 PM
Quote:
MattJ,
My rules are simple...
if you're within 500 yards... 300 Winchester Magnum
if you're within 100 yards... 7.62x39 SKS
if you're within 200 feet... .40 caliber pistol
if you're within 50 feet... 9x18 Makarov, .357 or .40 cal
after that... we fight... and I plan to hit you with whatever I have left... empty hand techniques are for when I run out of ammunition...
Start early enough, and the questions like this are moot...
Thats nice Grady. No need to train martial arts at ALL right?! There are certainly FAR easier ways of inflicting punishment. Definitely no strain on the bod THAT way....
-John
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 09:19 PM
Just keeping things in perspective, John...
Posted by: JKogas
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 09:24 PM
I wonder about your perspective sometimes Grady.
-John
Posted by: harlan
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 11:11 PM
Someone else that has read Korzybski.
Quote:
Alfred Korzybski - General Semantics
1. The word is not the thing
2. The word is not all the thing
3. Words are self-reflexive.
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: karate useless MA - 07/22/07 11:34 PM
Quote:
Communication is actually a channel issue. It has to go both ways to become more than noise.
I would agree, the whole 2 ears one mouth concept. But lets look at the term 'Martial Arts" What you said earlier in the thread made perfect sense, but tell anyone you train in Martial Arts and they will think, correctly, you do Karate or some other style.
But this is a post for another website much less thread.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: karate useless MA - 07/23/07 01:18 AM
WW- Thats the way most warriors see the h2h in a combat situation. You don't think Karate or any h2h Martial art skill to be able to handle all and any combat situations.
A alot of people new to the Martial art seem too young to know what was effective before the UFC/MMA. All martial artist changed or made adjustment in there training after these events if they were to be used in that area.
All pure systems if they trained in just that one style lost more often then not because of the versitilty you must have for that sport. What I find shocking is the idea that since Karare would loose as did a boxer, thai-boxer, jujitsu, wrestlers, judo, Kung-fu, Savate or anyother system that didn't train that way. Now does that mean only Karate and all these arts are ineffectives, no it doesn't it just meant that they were no prepared for that method versitlity or training.
Is Karate Useless Tell that to all the people its users has put in the hospital or sent home wishing they chose another victim. What makes Karate or anyother art or tool useful is when its called upon it works.
I don't think you need to train like a Thai-boxers or MMA artist to train for real, realism not match tactics but the realisim in the way people fight in you area. For example have you seen a Sport MMA/Thai-fighter defense against stick or multiples or drive by. Either they don't have any or they try to use the same techniques they use in the ring. Which is really not good in those situations they stand and fight (usually getting the hell beat out of them) and not fight until they can escape.
Karate if trained with realism is stil useful, really it was never met to used in gloves. As for its training methods such as Katas, I think its is a reflective study after you develope fighting skills you can research kata and you will find techniques and easier methods of using these different techniques. It gives you a method of continued training during the youth until your twilight hours, unlike MMA when your ring lifes over so is your training. Not that you won't be fit in good shape if you train MMA you should or will, but you won't heal as fast.
Karate is not that effective under MMA rules, other arts are better suited for that contest. But it takes nothing away from Boxing, Judo, Savate....., or the other competitive arts why should it take away from Karate?
I tell you this the attackers that got Ko's by Karate on the streets prior and after the MMA/UFC contest they looked pretty well damn KO'd to me, I didn't have to asked them, I could see it.
In the end think what you want, sucesse is the greatest teacher, even if its past success.
Posted by: jude33
Re: karate useless MA - 07/23/07 04:48 AM
Quote:
I don't think you need to train like a Thai-boxers or MMA artist to train for real, realism not match tactics but the realisim in the way people fight in you area. For example have you seen a Sport MMA/Thai-fighter defense against stick or multiples or drive by. Either they don't have any or they try to use the same techniques they use in the ring. Which is really not good in those situations they stand and fight (usually getting the hell beat out of them) and not fight until they can escape.
Karate if trained with realism is stil useful, really it was never met to used in gloves. As for its training methods such as Katas, I think its is a reflective study after you develope fighting skills you can research kata and you will find techniques and easier methods of using these different techniques. It gives you a method of continued training during the youth until your twilight hours, unlike MMA when your ring lifes over so is your training. Not that you won't be fit in good shape if you train MMA you should or will, but you won't heal as fast.
Hi Neko
Well I hear about boxing. The gloved variety. Great sport
but in my studies I would rather go back to the bare knuckle days with the throws head butts open hand technique
trips etc. Does that then sound functional? It does to me
Dont we practice these things also in karate.
Jude
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: karate useless MA - 07/23/07 06:33 AM
Just to get us back on track...
I don't think any martial art has the answer to every situation. If you train in karate, you also need to train in jujutsu or some other ground art to cover those kinds of attacks. Similarly, if you train "ground arts" you need some training in boxing, karate, or something to keep your a$$ above water when you're on a gravel parking lot (I know grapplers are tough, but that's a little more than they can deal with... if you disagree, move to the parking lot and try it a few times).
The deal with the firearms is a matter of "threat assessment" against armed people. While it was a joke, it's still pretty accurate about how you have to handle "long distance threats"... Are those "the" answer... no, they are An answer...
Being realistic requires more than knocking the hell out of each other when you train. It is a matter of planning, scenario training, different arts training, randori, and actual fighting.
The main goal is not to drown in your own ignorance when the situation demands more than you know...
Posted by: CVV
Re: karate useless MA - 07/23/07 07:01 AM
Like some already indicated, use of MA for SD differs from the situation. Al round fighting knowledge is very good and karate has a big range of techniques varying from striking/kicking/blocking to locking/throwing/dislocating etc... I do believe though that a continuation of a fight on the ground (ala judo/ju jitsu) is not something karate stresses.
But most important, in regard to SD, is stamina. Karate teaches and trains this by contact training (kitae kote/kakie/body slapping/jiu kumite) and power training. By training flexibility in joints and muscle stretching, endurence of pain regarding locks or dislocation attempts can get higher wich gives more abilities for escapes. So streching is not only done to be able to kick higher.
I value these basic training methods much higher towards youth and adolescents than to teach them how to dislocate fingers in SD.
Overall it will lead to more confidense and self esteem. But the trapp is overconfidense and ego. Free fighting with actual (moderate) contact in training tends to bring back some humility.
I have seen and experience al these things in my karate training. Yet I am just average in skill and seek more fun in training rather than to be the ultimate fighter.
One thing that is very dominant in fighting is fear. Sometimes you feel very confident to take somebody on but most of the times you will not, especially when multiple adversaries are involved.
Does karate training prepare you for that ??? The ultimate bushi will overcome fear for death but you can die very stupidly.
I guess moral should also be part of the training. But most dojo neglect this.
Victor is right. The best karateka is the one who lives the longest. Neko and Wristtwister are also right, train depending on situations and goals.
Posted by: Joss
Re: karate useless MA - 07/23/07 09:13 AM
I think many of you are missing the question and turning this into "my art vrs your art", yet again. You are stuck on your own "insider's" perspective when it's not helping. Ask the original question another way:
What percent of "off the street" newbies, in this day and age, can walk into a random "karate" school with the expectation that they will actually be taught solid, functional, self defense, and actually FIND that this is the primary goal and capability of that dojo?
I think not very many at all. By far, the majority of the dojos will teach sport, which anyone with experience knows is not self defence. Many won't even teach karate. They teach TKD under a karate advertisement.
There's another large chunk of "traditional" dojos whose primary goal is historic preservation. Here you learn kata after kata and uncounted stylistic nuances under the ubiquitous promise that "once you become a shodan" all will become clearer. But in these schools, under this cirriculum, few have much idea what the use of the kata and nuances are. These are like a big vintage car collection - except no one ever drives the cars, let alone drives them to the point that they are experts in them. They just keep polishing them.
Then stir in all the McDojo's who teach Ka-ching-do ($$), although any of the above can be McDojo's too.
And how many "cardio-karate" places will show up?
Is this a problem? Yeah - I think it is. Can it give an impression that karate is useless as a martial art. I could sure see it happening. My guess is that there's less than a 5% chance of randomly finding a dojo that teaches decent SD.
But the problem is not the material, because the SD material is most certainly there. I think karate is one of the two richest arts in useable, devestating SD techniques, the other being it's Chinese source art. (And oddly enough, it is the kata that are the sources of these techniques.) The problem is that the SD goals are so rarely there.
But the good news is that this is getting better and we are seeing other people that realize this too.
Posted by: jude33
Re: karate useless MA - 07/23/07 10:46 AM
Quote:
I think Karate is useful.
Look at Daido-juku. 'nuff said about "usefulness"
-Taison out
Hi
You sort of clarrified what I wanted to say
Any how
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5AvCcLwaJQ
My kind of karate except trained minus gloves and head guards. With head butts.I wouldnt mind eventualy entering one of these.
I think the headgaurds are some what off putting though
but neccesary.
Jude
Posted by: Neko456
Re: karate useless MA - 07/23/07 11:59 AM
You make a good point that the sport aspect of Karate/TKD don't train hard enough or realistic to be effective against a real threat. These are largely what people think Karate is, because its BIG school with a large number of members are more visible.
The good Combat schools don't have the high number of memebers because its not fun to practice practical methods with intent on hurting others, its not proper or politcally correct. Its not what they see in the movies and really isn't that pretty. Some think its just a turn off.
I don't think you can use the MMA to judge whats effective, few train that way. Rules make the fight, Real Karate strikes when you drop an opponent and while the UFC had these kicks standing to the grounds they stopped the use of them because they were too damaging, well thats what Karate IS.
Now the key is getting someone in that position.
I think this is a mute question because I don't think most people know what Karate is. It's not the tournament stuff you see hopping around. I think its the way its trained not what is trained a lot MMA fighter were once Karate/Tkd people.
Now I honestly know even with the way I train that I can't compete with the best that MMA world has to offer. But sometimes a local yoecal (2-6 months of training) will try his weak MMA on me and I take him to a whole new level, "hey thats against the rules we don't train that"!!! Elbows to the head, grabbing and punching, stomps while he on the ground. Knees while he trying to shoot (they do train this). Its how you train not what you train.
Again I know I can't compete with the best MMAers in my local area, my reason for training is different, I'm not a prize fighter nor am I young anymore. But some rookie thinking he got skills, easy picking. I wouldn't say my Karate is pure, what Karate is?
Really this is more a judgment of your personal skills more a combination of your entire repertoire. Not a Judgment of Karate.
How many only trained in Thai-boxing have lost in MMA? Many. Yet at range they are respected. Why not Karate? Maybe because of what people think Karate is.
Jude33 - Your way is a tough way but barefisted and headbutts was once a part of UFC, it was deemed too dangerous. From what I understand bearfisting is still Ok, in MMA the padding is to protect the puncher. With your like for hard conatct Daido-juku might be you. Good luck the helment doesn't seem to stop knock outs!!
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate useless MA - 07/23/07 01:13 PM
That said MMA Karate,lol!!!
It was good stuff though. I like the way they continued the fight after it went to the ground.
If you don't think karate is effective or if you think it's useless then you have not been exposed to good karate.
Personally, I like for everyone to think karate is useless and ineffective. More for me and I keep the element of surprise.
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: karate useless MA - 07/23/07 01:25 PM
Quote:
Personally, I like for everyone to think karate is useless and ineffective.
Kids today have decided in large part MMA is THE Martial Art and they have been taught that guys in Karate suits are fakes and easily beat.
Someone earlier stated how guys with 2-6 months training in MMA are walking in and challenging him and his students.
I think it is fair to say in the minds of many Karate and other TMA's are weak.
It's like Bruce Lee in the Chinese connection updated for 2007.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate useless MA - 07/23/07 01:33 PM
Right,
There is a bandwagon that has been going around a while. It states that BJJ, boxing, Muay thai, and wrestling are all you need and all the youngsters are all over it.
What YOU need is an individual choice. What is effective is an individual choice. What you want to train in and how you want to train is an individual choice,people!!
Walking into a karate schoool and challenging is disrespectful,rude, and arrogant and should be treated harshly. I'd kick them out, one way or another.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: karate useless MA - 07/23/07 06:15 PM
I'm quite sure that there are a lot of functional karateka out there, because not every school of karate trains the same way. Many do however, and I find it odd that you often see it taught and fought in contradictory ways.
My issues with karate have been NUMEROUS. I never liked those traditional style blocks that you never see actually performed in real fights. I had an instructor once (years ago) tell me that you wouldn't actually block like that in a fight (that it would be modified), yet the formal technique was taught within the kata. I never understood that. To this day I don't. Is it your opinions that practicing such blocks are useful? Sincerely curious.
I never liked the way the karate that I see use punching. Punching from the hip? IMO, even punching from the level of the chin is dangerous, any lower and you're asking to be knocked into next week. Whats the deal with that?
Kata? Board breaking? Line drills? No boxing gym trains that way. No gym with an emphasis on aliveness trains that way. In fact, there is a tremendous dichotomy between the schools who preach a more traditional way and gyms that emphasize aliveness. I find that very interesting. I am merely stating an observation, not knocking the practices of those things. Please make note and keep your jets cool.
How long are each of your typical training sessions? What are they composed of? How much time is spent sparring and drilling alive with complete resistance? How much time is spent performing kata and line drills, etc?
Help us to understand the rationale behind some of the methods.
-John
Posted by: Neko456
Re: karate useless MA - 07/24/07 03:35 AM
I never liked the way the karate that I see use punching. Punching from the hip? IMO, even punching from the level of the chin is dangerous, any lower and you're asking to be knocked into next week. Whats the deal with that?
Kata? Board breaking? Line drills? No boxing gym trains that way. No gym with an emphasis on aliveness trains that way. In fact, there is a tremendous dichotomy between the schools who preach a more traditional way and gyms that emphasize aliveness. I find that very interesting. I am merely stating an observation, not knocking the practices of those things. Please make note and keep your jets cool.
Neko456 - I understand where you are coming from with basic punching drill, but thats a practice to build foundation and power transition. Almost like a punch is taught in boxing, its shown stagnate and then with movement. As for punching from the chin, thats a punch from a guard most system punch and return to the guard. That along with head movement and using the legs as a defense is adequate defense once you put it all together.
And though its not taught as good techniques punching with your hands lowered or down is a method of drawing someone in. Boxers do it all the time why make a big deal out of something you already know.
Kata is a catalogue of techniques just as Sugar Ray Robinson could show how he perfromed certain moves, he'd break it down into sometimes improbable moves. Until you see him in action. Mr. Robinson (one of my idols) is dead and so is his great techniques, with kata it would still exist.
As for the line drill its one of the best ways to teach a large group of people, it was not the way I was taught, I was brought up in the family system (teaching method) usually a small class with partner watched by the instructor or his senior student. That way is great but it can't handle the 20 to 40 people in class the way a line class format can. You can see each student as you look down the line, if a high hand or legs out position because you can see it. Most militaries train in this manner to get the mechanics down and then you start training with a partner.
As for breaking its the same as taping your fist, it assure fists and hand formation, it builds confidence and speed. The Combat version of Thai-boxing does breaking, is there something wrong with that.
The blocking is more then it seems its strikes and traps within the movement, it also used to destroy the limbs or setup breaks. I have used the close fist blocking against a stick on the street, checking and striking at the sametime. I use the open hand blocking to disable, of balance, crash, or destory the limbs, trap and smoother attacks and guards. These movements are more then blocks they are strikes also. The purpose of Karate uke is to setup strikes, trap, breaks, sweeps and throws so you can finish. Unlike boxing its not just to protect your head an torso.
I don't see why boxing don't cover sweeps and throws, elbows and knees (of course I know why but sense we arew searching for what ifs). I don't see why they don't train to defend against stick or 2hfc or head locks. Why after you knock the guy down you don't finish him, with a kick or lock? They are open for all these attacks, the two hand cover in a street fight is asking for a takedown after the insteps broke and knee the grion, it won't help defend while on the ground against a stomp to pelvis. Whereas Karate's basic knees up to the cover guard would for awhile.
What gives, don't boxers know how to fight???
We can look at any art and see weakness even the highly rate, sweet science.
In hindsight those were good questions, it made me reflect on whats bad and good about boxing and Karate. I think we are getting somewhere we are answering the why nots?
Posted by: CVV
Re: karate useless MA - 07/24/07 07:13 AM
JKogas,
You emphesize SD or fighting functionality in everything you do. Karate imo does not. In basics it searches for maximum power release or combines this in training methods to harden the body and make the body more flexible.
Take the zuki with hikite. In my style its not from the hip but from the chest. In older day this was formeost trained on the makiwara. To check technique with large groups it is trained without makiwara.Pulling the other arm in is to emphesize the hip rotation. Doing it for 200 or 300 times is to train or to teach relaxation and tightning in technique and getting stamina. Boxing has the same principle with the guard up. Karate teaches it initialy without guard but in fighting or partner drill guard is up. Kata is not exact SD. Most moves are shown in basic presentation, not in partner mode with guard up.
Take uche-uke (mid level block). In real fighting you will not see it like most kihon but it is also used to strech the limbs and to train power. If you lift it to head level, you have a boxer guard for close fighting.
In fighting, guard is also determined by distance.The closer to clinch, closer to protect neck,face and chest then clinch to prevent knee in groin etc...
Karate is not about how nto be able to fight as quickly as possible but about correct basics, not only in technique but also in endurance, power, speed etc.... In older days, around age 14 chilkderen would be initiated by pumchin makiwara, do strenth and breathing exercises and streching. Gradually stepping was learned and finally kata. Kata was broken down and application learned via yakusoku kumite (partner drills). By the time they are 18, the body was formed to start learning and investigating the applications. Nowadays everbody seems to focus on real SD. I do not especially not with childeren and adolescents. But when we fight in training with adults it is continous, with contact and everything is allowed minding though control. Protective gear is almost not used. Sometimes fist protector/shin protector and groing protector chest protector for women. I usually fight with no protection on. When we fight with childeren/adolescents I empehise point sparring rules towards allowed techniques but it is continous. Sometimes we do in club test matches applying the rules.
Training sessions are 1 x 1,5 hours a week for childeren,
2 x 1,5 hours and 1 x 2 hours for adolescants, 1 x 1,5 hours and 1 x 2 hours for adults.
Sparring and/or partner drills is about 1/3 of training.
Kata and basics is about 1/3 and warming-up and power/speed training is also 1/3 ==> adolescants and adults.
For childeren there is more emphasis on warming-up and general fitness a bit less basics and kata also less sparring eand partner drills.
Resistance in partner drills is frequent for adults (especially for testing kata application) less for adolescents and not existing for childeren.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate useless MA - 07/24/07 11:40 AM
Hi John,
I'm really glad you asked these questions! I'll do my best to set some things straight.
Quote:
I'm quite sure that there are a lot of functional karateka out there, because not every school of karate trains the same way. Many do however, and I find it odd that you often see it taught and fought in contradictory ways.
Yes there are!
Odd and somewhat upsetting at the same time.
Quote:
My issues with karate have been NUMEROUS. I never liked those traditional style blocks that you never see actually performed in real fights. I had an instructor once (years ago) tell me that you wouldn't actually block like that in a fight (that it would be modified), yet the formal technique was taught within the kata. I never understood that. To this day I don't. Is it your opinions that practicing such blocks are useful? Sincerely curious.
Traditional style blocks have been discussed on this board several times. I have a different take on them. If you are performing them as blocks you are doing something wrong. There is no need o conform to a specific technique to block, all you need is for someone to feed the attack.
Blocks are grappling or strikes. People never seem to address the hand on the hip when talking about a block.It's there for something people!!! TWO WAY ACTION? PUSH PULL, etc.. And they are not meant to address punches IMO.
Quote:
I never liked the way the karate that I see use punching. Punching from the hip? IMO, even punching from the level of the chin is dangerous, any lower and you're asking to be knocked into next week. Whats the deal with that?
Punching from the hip...is ridiculous! Why on earth people do that I'll never know. I don't recall EVER punching from the hip during sparring, during a fight, etc...I have seen it done though. 
Quote:
Kata? Board breaking? Line drills? No boxing gym trains that way. No gym with an emphasis on aliveness trains that way. In fact, there is a tremendous dichotomy between the schools who preach a more traditional way and gyms that emphasize aliveness. I find that very interesting. I am merely stating an observation, not knocking the practices of those things. Please make note and keep your jets cool.
Kata is a self defense training tool, not a fighting tool. There are other ways to train the same thing, but I enjoy learning through kata.
Board breaking...builds confidence, is good for show, and looks cool?? I like to break cement blocks too. I basically like to smash things when I get the chance,lol.
Line drills are good work to correct technique. Correct technique is something I see lacking in MMA a lot. When Heath Herring got lucky and knocked Noguiera down with a kick the first thing he did was jump on him and flail like a windmill. He didn't connect anything and had no power behind any of it. And he is a top fighter??? I think he desperately needs line work,lol.
Quote:
How long are each of your typical training sessions?
At least two hours,depends, sometimes I like to stay over and work on whatever.
Quote:
What are they composed of?
Many different things depending on the level of the student. Sorry to be vague.
Quote:
How much time is spent sparring and drilling alive with complete resistance?
We do this quite often,but not every class and once again depending on the level of the student. If it's just the blackbelts it seems like all we do is kick eachothers a$$.
Quote:
How much time is spent performing kata and line drills, etc?
Kata is learned in class and expected to be practiced individually on their own time. The SD drills from the kata are practiced in class with as much progressive resistance as possible.
Line drills are done frequently at the beginning ,but taper off after a while, if the student has good technique.
Hope this helps. Let me know if there is anything else.
I have seen many different karate schools and I know where you are coming from.
It's ok to say that this school does this or that, but we don't all come from the same source.
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: karate useless MA - 07/24/07 02:27 PM
Quote:
Punching from the hip...is ridiculous! Why on earth people do that I'll never know. I don't recall EVER punching from the hip during sparring, during a fight, etc...I have seen it done though.
Actually this is called point of orgin, the idea is not that you punch from the hip but that you punch from wherever you hand is when you decide to punch.
You can see all the time where someone cocks their hand then punches, big waste of time and movement, telegraph etc.
The larger concept is you can't set up then do a technique, you will miss everytime, you must flow from where the body is and what the body and or attacker gives you.
On the same note, you will often not be in good hand position or a fighting stance, so it really makes no sense to drill from any particular starting point over another anyway IMO.
You can train punches from the boxers stance or a fighting stance because there is a good chance you will throw from those positions, but all it takes is watching one MMA match and you will see and soon as the fight engages that all breaks down and guys are launching from all over the map.
Point of origin is the concept...be water my friend.
Posted by: Meliam
Re: karate useless MA - 07/24/07 03:39 PM
Some Karate styles are more "Useful" than others. And now we are talking about fighting not tradition, forms etc.
If you pick a full contact style such as Enshin, Kyokushin, Ashihara, then you will be able to go toe to toe against most fighters from other styles.
If you pick one of the "We teach an art not a sport, we are the most deadly but we never show it because we are so dangerous that we just can't go to tournaments" type of schools then you may end up with a bunch of academic knowledge but not a whole lot of useful fighting skills.
Meliam
Posted by: medulanet
Re: karate useless MA - 07/24/07 04:24 PM
Quote:
Some Karate styles are more "Useful" than others. And now we are talking about fighting not tradition, forms etc.
If you pick a full contact style such as Enshin, Kyokushin, Ashihara, then you will be able to go toe to toe against most fighters from other styles.
If you pick one of the "We teach an art not a sport, we are the most deadly but we never show it because we are so dangerous that we just can't go to tournaments" type of schools then you may end up with a bunch of academic knowledge but not a whole lot of useful fighting skills.
Meliam
You're right, the lack of face punches, ground fighting, and limited clinching makes full contact karate the perfect style for fighting. 
I think you need to do some more research and get out and see more styles of karate before you make stupid statements like these.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: karate useless MA - 07/24/07 04:37 PM
Quote:
You're right, the lack of face punches, ground fighting, and limited clinching makes full contact karate the perfect style for fighting. I think you need to do some more research and get out and see more styles of karate before you make stupid statements like these.
*stealthily swipes Medulanet's regular coffee for decaf*
Whoa, hold on bro. You are reading WAY too much into that. Let's review what he actually wrote:
Quote:
If you pick a full contact style such as Enshin, Kyokushin, Ashihara, then you will be able to go toe to toe against most fighters from other styles.
I don't see anything about "perfect" anywhere in there. I think he means that because these styles routinely use full contact, that there is a good chance that the students will be familiar working under pressure. I don't see a problem with that.
You were just talking about the need to pressure test your style in another thread - no different, IMHO.
Posted by: medulanet
Re: karate useless MA - 07/24/07 04:55 PM
Actually the problem I had with his post is that his description of a less "useful" style was
"We teach an art not a sport, we are the most deadly but we never show it because we are so dangerous that we just can't go to tournaments"
This implies that its going to tournaments as sport which makes a style effective or not.
Then he referenced styles such as Enshin and Ashihara. These styles have tournaments which BREED fighters who cannot defend their faces against punches.
That is not my idea of effective karate. Now, if he had mentioned training practices that would have been different. Maybe if he had said karate styles which do not train using full contact combat athletics methodologies (thanks JKog) are less useful than those who do not spar at all, I would have not taken such acception to his statement. But what he said was any karate which is not interested in sport and entering tournaments is less "useful" than Enshin or Ashihara.
Posted by: jude33
Re: karate useless MA - 07/24/07 07:42 PM
Quote:
Some Karate styles are more "Useful" than others. And now we are talking about fighting not tradition, forms etc.
If you pick a full contact style such as Enshin, Kyokushin, Ashihara, then you will be able to go toe to toe against most fighters from other styles.
If you pick one of the "We teach an art not a sport, we are the most deadly but we never show it because we are so dangerous that we just can't go to tournaments" type of schools then you may end up with a bunch of academic knowledge but not a whole lot of useful fighting skills.
Meliam
Totaly Wrong.
Plenty of usefull fighting skills. I havent realy heard that kind of phrasing about the art I practice. The only bad thing I have heard is a lack of groundfighting and practicing throws which have to be trained seperatly
I think I have only seen a grabbing the larynex and choking once in early UFC's.
I think they banned it. Is this the sort of thing you are refering to with lack of fighting skills?
The other styles while hard styles dont use the hands for face contact so the styles are geared to just that.
Any how why has this thread become a seemingly justify karate thread? I agree with Victor that a person has what they have and adds to their art with the study of kata but also with the addition and limited study of other arts.
I see from my limited kata study certain techniques that are commen to other arts. I also see other styles of karate
that Neko and Brian S study that have things that I would like in my art but there is only so much I can study. Perhaps one day.
Either way your statement is wrong.
I am not an academic but academic study might be required after all isnt researching past wrestling skills that seemingly are no longer practiced( Im no wrestler so I could get proven wrong on that one) but are in kata and are usefull fighting skills academic study?
The end product is skill in fighting.
The only thing my art lacks is throwing practice and major wrestling skills practice.
But doesnt also boxing?
Jude
Posted by: Usenthemighty
Re: karate useless MA - 07/25/07 01:03 AM
Man is it me or is this looking like a Karate vs (X) tread. I don't believe Karate is useless. It has punching like other arts,kicking like other arts, elbows like other arts,knees like other arts, and some grappling like other arts.(neck clinch in Heian Yodan)Oh yea it has also went sport/safety fication like other arts. I think it's more how you train. I agree with Jkogas on the sparing,aliveness, and training to fight at all ranges thing, but I still do kata(and application), drills, and board breaking. Oh yea "the I think the karate isn't good for MMA" is bull, because early MMA matches only had 2 rules biting and eye gouging. I mean you could freakin hit people in the throat back then.
Posted by: harlan
Re: karate useless MA - 07/25/07 07:59 AM
Yep. Just walk away. Interesting how those that don't do karate always seem to find their way into threads about it.
Quote:
Man is it me or is this looking like a Karate vs (X) tread.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate useless MA - 07/25/07 10:15 AM
I find it very interesting too harlan.
Why is there a need to justify what they are doing?
Why do they always have to question karate training methods? YOU want to know, go do karate!!!
Why is there such a comparison between mma and karate at all?
Posted by: harlan
Re: karate useless MA - 07/25/07 10:19 AM
Lack of lineage?
j/k
Quote:
Why is there such a comparison between mma and karate at all?
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate useless MA - 07/25/07 10:21 AM
The lineage card!!!! NOOOO!!
Posted by: Meliam
Re: karate useless MA - 07/26/07 04:19 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Some Karate styles are more "Useful" than others. And now we are talking about fighting not tradition, forms etc.
If you pick a full contact style such as Enshin, Kyokushin, Ashihara, then you will be able to go toe to toe against most fighters from other styles.
If you pick one of the "We teach an art not a sport, we are the most deadly but we never show it because we are so dangerous that we just can't go to tournaments" type of schools then you may end up with a bunch of academic knowledge but not a whole lot of useful fighting skills.
Meliam
Totaly Wrong.
Plenty of usefull fighting skills. I havent realy heard that kind of phrasing about the art I practice. The only bad thing I have heard is a lack of groundfighting and practicing throws which have to be trained seperatly
I think I have only seen a grabbing the larynex and choking once in early UFC's.
I think they banned it. Is this the sort of thing you are refering to with lack of fighting skills?
The other styles while hard styles dont use the hands for face contact so the styles are geared to just that.
Any how why has this thread become a seemingly justify karate thread? I agree with Victor that a person has what they have and adds to their art with the study of kata but also with the addition and limited study of other arts.
I see from my limited kata study certain techniques that are commen to other arts. I also see other styles of karate
that Neko and Brian S study that have things that I would like in my art but there is only so much I can study. Perhaps one day.
Either way your statement is wrong.
I am not an academic but academic study might be required after all isnt researching past wrestling skills that seemingly are no longer practiced( Im no wrestler so I could get proven wrong on that one) but are in kata and are usefull fighting skills academic study?
The end product is skill in fighting.
The only thing my art lacks is throwing practice and major wrestling skills practice.
But doesnt also boxing?
Jude
You can't really say I am wrong and then start talking about Katas as being an exercise that improves your fighting skills. (If you talk about Enshin/Ashihara katas then yes) but traditional Katas where your movements are totally unnatural will never work in a real fight.
I know that many people who haven't been in a full contact fight think it will work. But moving like you do in traditional Kata is something that only works in movies.
And for your information Knock down styles like Kyokushin, ashihara etc don't strike to the face in tournaments, but they do practice with head strikes. I started out doing Kyokushin, then Ashihara, after moving to the US i began doing Muay Thai and BJJ because that was what you could do in my area, finally I ended up involved in Krav Maga.
I can tell you this much. Most full contact Karate styles practice also with boxing gloves etc and they use strikes to the head. In their tournaments they don't, cause they fight bare knuckled.
I was however not trying to insult the non contact styles, and some of those styles will also be effective in a fight. But I was referring to the system where they don't spar at all and think forms alone will be a good replacement for real fighting.
Have a good day,
And again I was not trying to insult you or your system.
Meliam
oh, kata works. ever watch the ufc? thoes guys must pratice all the hiean kata. hip throws, kimura's, foot sweeps, elbows, knees, clinching, head butts (not so UFC anymore), shuolder throws, side body drops, scarf holds, and leg kicks. kata is a grrrrreat starting point for learning the in's and out's of fighting.
*But moving like you do in traditional Kata is something that only works in movies.*
now now.
dosn't every one love kata by now?
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: karate useless MA - 07/26/07 06:54 PM
Ever tried JUDO kata? All those things you mention are in there, in case you're really interested in kata... and they teach you how to get to those techniques.
Karate isn't the only MA that uses kata, or that has kata. What kata means is "how one behaves"... so "training methods" can be kata at some level. It's all in how you choose to view it.
Posted by: Usenthemighty
Re: karate useless MA - 07/26/07 09:26 PM
I practice kata(W/ application) and spar(a lot). It helps me period.
Posted by: jude33
Re: karate useless MA - 07/26/07 11:55 PM
Quote:
You can't really say I am wrong and then start talking about Katas as being an exercise that improves your fighting skills. (If you talk about Enshin/Ashihara katas then yes) but traditional Katas where your movements are totally unnatural will never work in a real fight.
Here we go.
Before we go around in circles perhaps if you could take the time to answer some questions then we could get some where.
Ok firstly what do you think kata is?
Which techniques do you know that come from which kata do you think wouldnt work in a real fight?
Define a real fight and poss post a video of your idea of a real fight.
Some techniques I think in certain kata are for armed grappling so unless history is relived then they wouldnt have much use in a modern street fight.
But that isnt all techniques.
Quote:
I know that many people who haven't been in a full contact fight think it will work. But moving like you do in traditional Kata is something that only works in movies.
Which movies? and your wrong again.
The mechanics of certain throws are in some kata as are other fighting methods. Full contact normaly bans the nasty stuff so its hard to make a comparison. Full contact karate is a sport. Kata wasnt meant for sport. I dont think an opponent is going to be to happy about having his testicles torn off do you?
Quote:
And for your information Knock down styles like Kyokushin, ashihara etc don't strike to the face in tournaments, but they do practice with head strikes. I started out doing Kyokushin, then Ashihara, after moving to the US i began doing Muay Thai and BJJ because that was what you could do in my area, finally I ended up involved in Krav Maga.
Im not knocking those styles. I like them but doesnt koykoshin have kata? yes it does.In those type of tournements the whole basis of what I can see is not to make contact to the face with the hands therefore the strategy in that type of full contact is just that. Perhaps if you finds a striker and spar full contact with him,/her you just using your tournement rules and he can make full contact with his hands to the face.
Quote:
I can tell you this much. Most full contact Karate styles practice also with boxing gloves etc and they use strikes to the head. In their tournaments they don't, cause they fight bare knuckled.
I was however not trying to insult the non contact styles, and some of those styles will also be effective in a fight. But I was referring to the system where they don't spar at all and think forms alone will be a good replacement for real fighting.
No one has said that forms alone is the way to train. If people wish that then all well and good but kata is meant to be a part of training.Just because certain people dont want to or cant be bothered trying to work out what kata is or for what ever reason they seem to run it down.
Please attend a seminar with Ian aberneathy when he is in the states you might change your views.
Jude
Posted by: crablord
Re: karate useless MA - 07/27/07 12:38 AM
Quote:
Ok firstly what do you think kata is?
Which techniques do you know that come from which kata do you think wouldnt work in a real fight?
OMG.
kata is essentially doing a stupid little dance in a 5 metre space against invisible men.
there you go.
I don't remember the exact quote off karate kid, but "kata is good for working up a sweat, not for fighting"
im not knocking karate, but in all honesty, kata is a load of [censored].
last time I checked fedor wasnt training up for his fights by doing a dance.
Posted by: jc4199
Re: karate useless MA - 07/27/07 01:50 AM
We train in both Kata and application we also spar a lot as well. Our teacher one night had us bring in MMA dvds. After class we pulled out a tv and put in some of the fights. We would watch part of a fight and then pause it and find a Kata application to counter or defend the segment we watched. Most of the time we came up with a solution. Some could not be used in the ring. But a lot of them could have been. We use kata as an encyclopedia
Of techniques.
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: karate useless MA - 07/27/07 02:22 AM
ah where have you been Crabby!!!!!!!!!
'kata is essentially doing a stupid little dance in a 5 metre space against invisible men'
is possibly the best comment I have heard for a long time, well done Sir
Posted by: Meliam
Re: karate useless MA - 07/27/07 02:38 AM
Kyokushin has katas yes, but when you fight your stance is different, its more like boxing or muay thai, and you don't use the moves from the katas. Katas are part of the system for tradition and to help you developing skills in the traditional moves and blocks. When you fight you do not use those type of moves.
When I say real fight I mean, a full contact fight where you hit and get hit. Not a theoretical debate of how a kata can be used in a fight.
I would like to see any of you getting into the octagon doing a PINAN kata against a BJJ guy that tries to take you to the ground.
But this has already gone too far.
In my opinion (I think I can have that) Katas are useless for combat, it looks nice and it's part of the tradition so I don't mind doing it. However the value of a kata in a real fight is almost zero.
Now that is my opinion, and I have fought full contact Knock Down, Muay Thai and BJJ. For me Katas don't work.
If you think they work, thats cool with me, good luck when you go to a MMA tournament and try to use it.
I will not change my view about Katas unless someone who actually fights full contact, Muai Thay, MMA, etc. can show me that he/she uses the Katas effectively in the ring or the octagon.
And again knock down rules are for tournament only, Kyokushin/Ashihara/Enshin does practice strikes to the head.
You talk about a fight where the knock down fighter don't strike to the face but a non contact karate guy does.
1) why would the knock down guy not just punch you in the face if you allow that in a fight? (As said we train with boxing gloves etc.)
2) Even if the knock down guy is not allowed to punch in the face and he fights a non contact guy, I believe the knock down guy would probably win.(Why? Low Kicks, knees and well trained full contact techniques with the legs to the body and the head.)
Meliam
PS: for those of you who brought up Judo Katas.
I never said anything about Judo. I have not practiced the style and can therefore not say if it works or not, it seems to work just fine though.
Posted by: crablord
Re: karate useless MA - 07/27/07 04:59 AM
agreed, I mean it might have its benefits, but its like holding horse stance for 2 hours. it doesn't help you one little bit in a fight.
and what the hell is with the moves in them? theres nothing combat applicable in them anyway
Posted by: jude33
Re: karate useless MA - 07/27/07 06:34 AM
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Kyokushin has katas yes, but when you fight your stance is different, its more like boxing or muay thai, and you don't use the moves from the katas. Katas are part of the system for tradition and to help you developing skills in the traditional moves and blocks. When you fight you do not use those type of moves.
Hi
That is because the competitors are restricted to what they can do. Mauy Thai uses simular techiques that are found in kata. In fact I am lead to believe there is a lot of commen
ground in the two arts. What were e the origins of Mauy Thai ? Werent the techiques kept alive in a form?
I am a bit rusty on that study of that lineage so I will check it.
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When I say real fight I mean, a full contact fight where you hit and get hit. Not a theoretical debate of how a kata can be used in a fight.
Ok
Full contact is a sport. Im not knocking it I like it.
It isnt self defence as in a street fight.From what I have seen the sport (karate) you have has in a way its own sort of katas made by different top fighters to practice the moves relevent to the sport and rightly so.
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I would like to see any of you getting into the octagon doing a PINAN kata against a BJJ guy that tries to take you to the ground.
Firstly it wouldnt be a kata perfomance. Techniques which are in the katas might be used.Kata is a physical way of teaching and remembering techniques and I think in certain kata there is the technique to counter takedowns.
BJJ?
Doesnt the history of BJJ start with judo in which the techniques were recorded in kata? Then BJJ was Combined with other fighting arts that in time had different techniqies added? Judo was created from ju jitsu which again used kata to record the techniques?
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But this has already gone too far.
In my opinion (I think I can have that) Katas are useless for combat, it looks nice and it's part of the tradition so I don't mind doing it. However the value of a kata in a real fight is almost zero.
Wrong. The value of techniques found in kata is high.
Which real fight?
Sport or street fight thus self defence?
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Now that is my opinion, and I have fought full contact Knock Down, Muay Thai and BJJ. For me Katas don't work.
Katas do work .Some of the techiques you used were found in kata of some description. The practice of kata isnt direct fighting. It is the practice of principles and techiques. Way back when most people couldnt read or write they used kata to remember/teach techniques. The problem is some techiques were hidden. Thats where sometimes problems arise. Im no expert on kata,. I know what I know and I am learning.
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If you think they work, thats cool with me, good luck when you go to a MMA tournament and try to use it.
I will not change my view about Katas unless someone who actually fights full contact, Muai Thay, MMA, etc. can show me that he/she uses the Katas effectively in the ring or the octagon.
I think the techiques found in kata are being used in there.
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And again knock down rules are for tournament only, Kyokushin/Ashihara/Enshin does practice strikes to the head.
You talk about a fight where the knock down fighter don't strike to the face but a non contact karate guy does.
1) why would the knock down guy not just punch you in the face if you allow that in a fight? (As said we train with boxing gloves etc.)
2) Even if the knock down guy is not allowed to punch in the face and he fights a non contact guy, I believe the knock down guy would probably win.(Why? Low Kicks, knees and well trained full contact techniques with the legs to the body and the head.)
I think
That can apply to any form of karate . Koykoshin allows any karate art to participate. I train much in the same way except I dont use gloves and the addition of the none rules techiques found in kata. What I said was the strategy of competition knock down(sport none face contact) fought on that basis leaves a person wide open to face strikes.
Boxing gloves techique is not the same as bare knuckle.
I am not knocking knock down karate but it is a sport. A hard sport but still has rules.It has some of the best kickers ever because of the nature of its training.
I think koykoshin was the mixture of goju and shotokan with adjustments made by each high level achiever. Goju aspect being the conditioning as to how much punishment a person can take.
Ashihara more subtle approach to evasion but there are others on the forum more knowledgable than myself and I havent trained in that style so I wont say to much.
Enshin
I havent done much research on so no commment.
The reason I think you cant see the need for kata/techniques in kata is because of the sport element.
I can see the need even though my studies are minimum in comparison to others.
A person wouldnt go in to a fight using kata as a so called dance form. They would use the principles and techniques found in kata.
Koykoshin has kata. I doubt very much if the founder
didnt think kata was required he would have included them.
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PS: for those of you who brought up Judo Katas.
I never said anything about Judo. I have not practiced the style and can therefore not say if it works or not, it seems to work just fine though.
From Jujutsu in turn the kata developed
(Techniques kept in a as people term dance form)
judo came.
Which in turn had Judo kata which when combined with other arts
= BJJ.
Jude
ahh, the dreaded 2 hour horse stance kata. i have to find the guy teaching this kata someday and really pund the snot out of him for showing you this secret treasure.
i guess you've never studied kata correctly at all. i could argue that since a heavy bag never hits back, its crappy training for a real fight as well. kata has more to offer then a beign a simple way to build up a sweat. and honestly? quotes from the karate kid? nice mate, you do super research! lol
i definatly understand your(and many others) argument, that kata is for douche bags. many, however teach simply the movements in sequence to students with no application, these people are only learning the proformance to get there next belt. they study the wide, and not the deep. and yes, unless they are natural fighters will not gain from meaningless kata repetetion. kata without application will hinder your ability to defend yourself i would say. form and posture are not adhered to religously in application (though they should be work towards constantly, thats where speed and power comes from), neither is the exact sequence or timeing of the movements.
oh, and by the way ground grappeling is stupid cause the people don't punch each other!! what kind of fight training is that? (ok, that was a dig frmo a kata man) lol
bottom line is, your taking a shat on kata in general, and you haven't the slightest idea of what kata pratice can be. its just as alive or intense as you can get when you pratice application. some people give it the name "kata based sparing" where you take movements from the kata, say a kimora or a hip throw, then get out the mat's and try it out against a resisting partner.
now go hit your useless heavy bag, and i'll go work up a useless sweat.
Posted by: Victor Smith
Re: karate useless MA - 07/27/07 08:05 AM
Student of Life,
This same issue has gone down this same path innumerable times on FightingArts.com.
It's just a variation on themes.
1.I love my system so all other systems must be attacked and degraded (this is within krate as well as across various arts as well).
2.Karate is the origial old time - Big Time Art, so attacking it gives more validity to what I am interested in.
3.The idea that there are systems is a relatively new phenomena starting in the transmission of the Okinawan arts to Japan. In reality there are just individual instructors and schools, which may or may not be doing similar things as other instructors/schools from the same lineage. Karate is really so vast there is no description everyon even in karate can accept as the right answer. The descriptions of karate given might describe trends of some schools, but for every rule there are plenty of exceptions that don't do it that way. Their arguments falter of course due to faulty understanding of what karate means.
4. What kata represents is so varied between different karate schools, their descriptions of kata use is perhaps right and frequently in left field, not describing kata's usage or potential.
5. Among the hardest to understand is where the idea that karate was for fighting came into existence. Karate in its base is to eliminate the need to fight, to end the possibility and any practice that yields that answer is the right one, such as one extreme walking away and doing nothing, or in the other extreme breaking the attacker so there is no fight.
6. The more important thing karate's detractors miss is there are no rules.
Let me give you an example, I'm getting older fast, slower, etc. so young MMA/BBJ/Boxer/Wrestler attacks me with great speed and power. I respond by stripping 3 or 4" of skin from their face and break a few ribs, simply because my karate also incorporates weapons and I have a very short stick in my hand that works very well even though I'm older and slow.
Of course these discussions get into total nonsense. Every art has its great potential and every art has holes in it that the skilled can exploit readily.
The hardest task on these groups is to really respect everyone.
That is a sign of a true karate-ka, IMVHO..
Posted by: crablord
Re: karate useless MA - 07/27/07 08:06 AM
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ahh, the dreaded 2 hour horse stance kata. i have to find the guy teaching this kata someday and really pund the snot out of him for showing you this secret treasure.
your right. karate has more stupid things in it than kata, such as horse stance, back stance, actually, every single stupid stance. spear hands, etc.
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i guess you've never studied kata correctly at all. i could argue that since a heavy bag never hits back, its crappy training for a real fight as well
who says its getting you ready for a fight? bag training is mainly for fitness and bettering of technique against something your actually hitting. the closest thing to kata is shadow boxing and thats largely warm up type stuff.
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kata has more to offer then a beign a simple way to build up a sweat.
like what.
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i definatly understand your(and many others) argument, that kata is for douche bags
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unless they are natural fighters will not gain from meaningless kata repetetion. kata without application will hinder your ability to defend yourself i would say
there you go.
In essence kata
- Requires deep thought to actually get some kind of retarded benefit out of it
- wont do anything for 90% of people
- is done so that you can only apply the techniques in it against people who are placed perfectly.
As opposed to time which could have been spent sparring or doing bagwork, which will -
- Get you faster and get your reflexes up
- get your hits harder and better in technique
- teach you to apply the techniques with some resistance.
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oh, and by the way ground grappeling is stupid cause the people don't punch each other!! what kind of fight training is that?
Who said the only way to fight is to hit people? wrestling is good since your training against a RESISTING opponent.
even weight training does more for fighting than kata, at least you get some kind of a fight applicable benefit out of it.
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its just as alive or intense as you can get when you pratice application.
bullsh*t
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now go hit your useless heavy bag, and i'll go work up a useless sweat.
ok, and in 4 months ill have a "useless" much harder punch and better technique.
then you can tell me what benefits your stupid 5 minute ballet dance has given you, should be interesting.
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: karate useless MA - 07/27/07 08:21 AM
Crab,
your opinion is of course vlaid, as its yours.
but tone down the impolite language and presentation of your posts - you are in the karate section after all.
or we shall have words and I shall 'kata' your ass out of here......
Posted by: IceCat
Re: karate useless MA - 07/27/07 08:48 AM
No one will fight the same way as they perform their kata's anyone who believes this is to stupid to understand
I practice shotokan and I do Kata's,but when we spar it's all up to the individual,there are no set patterns in a fight.I will kick like a kickboxer,punch like a boxer even do throws like in judo
I will not stand in a kata stance like a dummy but one of the thecniques that puts you on your A$$ is probably in a Kata
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate useless MA - 07/27/07 09:56 AM
Kata has real fighting applications.
It is a training tool. You have to have proper instruction and use it right.
Kata is not a dance.
Kata is not useless.
Kata is not a fight(you people watch too many movies,lol) it is several self defense applications that are useful.
Kata teaches you how to use your body to its full potential.
Stances are transitional not static.
Crab is completely ignorant of karate and kata applications.
This is the karate forum folks. You can leave, or be escorted.
p.s Victor was right on!!
would you argue that improper training in how to use the heavy bag would lead to improper technique as well as bad habbits that will be detremintal in real fights?
improper kata training will build bad habbits, improper training is bad. train right and your as set as you can be. there is more to kata training then simple reperting the kata, maybe someday you will find a dojo that would clear up this idea of karate you have. either way, good luck with it all. i don't share your idea's of what karate is or isn't, and thats about that.
cheers