Posted by: harlan
Comparison: tuite and chin na - 07/13/07 08:21 AM
Don't know anything about either, but while learning and trying to understand what I see as
'real' goju , these techniques beg the question: what system do they come from?
Is there anyone here who can illuminate me on the differences between the two, tuite and chin na?
Thank you.
Posted by: Victor Smith
Re: Comparison: tuite and chin na - 07/13/07 08:39 AM
Hi Narda,
Chin Na is a Chinese term for a range of grappling technique in almost all of the Chinese arts. Dr. Yang Jwing Ming has written and published an entire series of video's on his studies. But there are many other good books on it too.
Dr. Yang, a PhD in Engineering, applied logic to the Chin Na study and has developed a training program, not martial art specific, to share these techniques with anyone.
But it is found in PaKua/BaGua, Tai Chi, Northern Eagle Claw is one of Chin-na's source systesm. Northern Mantis uses the same locks as Eagle Claw, just with different hand formation, and so forth.
Tuite is a term created by Seriyu Oyta solely to teach his concepts of grappling techniques within the Okinawan kata he teaches. George Dillman (and many others) grabbed it and used it for their own purposes. There is a similar word in Okinawan for similar purposes. Oyata sensei in turn, after being ripped off, changed the name of his style and use of terms.
Essentially a lock in jujutsu, aikido, aiki-jutsu, tuite and chin-na cover the same body mechanics.
Of course Goju has locking potential, as do all the Okinawan systems. Some explore it to greater or lesser extents.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Comparison: tuite and chin na - 07/13/07 08:43 AM
IMO opinion, the two are very similar in many cases-I have had Yang Jwing-Ming's book on practical chin na application for years (available on Amazon) and it contains many examples of grappling/locking that can be found virtually identically in Shotokan kata (my reference point). Offhand, I can remember he shows application seen in Enpi, Bassai, Jion, Tekki, Kanku and others. There are also a load of interesting techniques that I do not recognise in my kata but may appear in Goju forms.
B.
Posted by: harlan
Re: Comparison: tuite and chin na - 07/13/07 08:44 AM
Thanks Victor (and Barad). You always give me something to think about!
Gives a new twist to the phrase 'return to the source'.
Quote:
Chin-na's source systesm.
Yep. Probably 'old hat' to you long timers, but this newbies exploration of joint locks leads full circle...chin na/china to Okinawa/te to PP, and so on. Changing terminology is rather stupid...as if one can 'own' an idea.
Quote:
Oyata sensei in turn, after being ripped off, changed the name of his style and use of terms.
So, if 'tuite' is a 'new' term, what are the synonyms ('te'?), and can they be considered an 'Okinawan' version seperate enough to compare as a system to chin na?
thank you.
Posted by: Victor Smith
Re: Comparison: tuite and chin na - 07/13/07 10:02 AM
Narda,
To tell you the truth I don't remember the term. I've been in discussions over the years, but as I don't practice in Okinawan, I just call a lock a lock.
Dan Smith of the Seibukan has discussed on the CyberDojo frequently that the older Okinawan practice was to use almost no terminology for karate technique.
There is a Okinawan term for 'put your arm/hand here' and used for punches, strikes, block, parries. Those arts developed in a non-verbal environment and you learn it from your instructor personally moving through the space with you, and perhaps a personal intervention if you weren't in the right space.
Isshinryu was transmitted in a very similar manner, the founder never took the time to learn English, and almost all of the terminology was English in the long run, or borrowed as chance would have it.
My own focus it that my students do the practice correctly.
If dredging my memory serves at this time me right it might have been the term 'toudi' and I know 'ti' was often used.
The real question is whether the term is used in Goju training?
Posted by: CVV
Re: Comparison: tuite and chin na - 07/13/07 10:42 AM
As far as I understand it, the term TI is used for practical fighting knowledge ranging from locks/holds/throws/nerve strikes/dislocations/chockes etc...
It is used as general term in Okinawa by shorei as well as shorin based systems.
A dvd series "Okinawa Karate" from Karate Bushido France talks about TI as practical fighting knowledge that can be applied when analyzing kata movements. The DVD features Goju Shorin and Uechi ryu masters like Tetsuhiro Hokama.
On one occasion a shorin ryu master explains in regard to passai that real TI starts where the kata ends. He meant that the technique in the kata could be an opening in a fight or situation in a fight but is not the end of it nor is the total answer found in the exact application of the kata movements. Studying the offensive and defensive moves in kata will lead to this practical knowledge. Of course this means not restricting to the movements of the kata but going beyond.
This leads to practical knowledge also found in chi-na. In my opinion it is simular.
Posted by: Victor Smith
Re: Comparison: tuite and chin na - 07/13/07 10:58 AM
CVV - Great information and analysis.
Posted by: GIMark
Re: Comparison: tuite and chin na - 07/21/07 03:19 AM
I believe Anko Itosu mentioned the art of Torite in one of his letters. I believe this refers to "reversing hands" or at least thats what my Sensei says.
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: Comparison: tuite and chin na - 07/22/07 04:02 AM
many well informed western karateka agree that the major grappling components to Okinawan 'karate' were from China, ie chin-na and chinese wrestling.
these are now refered to by many as tuite (or torite) and tegumi.
the terms themselves arn't really the important piece, apart from an educational perspective of course, its all in how we practise, and for many why.