A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You?

Posted by: linhuck

A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 03/22/07 06:08 PM

Hi everyone,

Just thought I would brighten up everybodys day. Well, it made me smile, sort of!

I just wrote an article about my thoughts on kiai, you may not agree with them, but scroll to the bottom of the article and watch the video. Click the link below.
Classic Karate?
A Video showing The Power Of Kiai

Ossu
Linhuck

PS I feel there's something very disturbing about the first clip!
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 03/22/07 08:08 PM

It's an interesting clip for sure, staged - maybee but likely not from the way the Kiai Master got hit.

sad, but there you go - I think the world is begining to wake up to mumbo jumbo martial arts and for that I really do thank the MMA craze.

Of course taken out of a combat application context there is much to be said for 'other' practises, but im not there yet..........
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 03/22/07 10:23 PM

the video doesn't have to do with kiai but shows the disillusion process ending with an injury. wonder how appologist students excused him out of that? He just had a bad Ki day?


about kiai...

I don't train vocal 'kiai'. but I see three common uses for it:

1. Demonstration dramatics (keeps the crowd and judges awake).

2. Tradition (for keeping up class spirit during larger group training. esp. kids classes).

3. 'War cry' (to invoke fear while releasing fear).

The sound used matters less than the emotion it seems to serve.

Technique-wise, a very short burst of air initiated from the quick contraction of the hara is suppossed to assist in training kime and sinking timed to breathing. after those principles are learned, kiai needn't be continued for that purpose.

Long sustained vocal dramatics from the lungs is just screaming....which is what most are taught to do.

Kiai at predetermined points in kata were arbitrarily set and became tradition when Karate was systemitized into Budo Art. do another sound or at other points in kata and traditionalists will tell you you're doing it 'wrong'....but they can't tell you technical reasons why.

Posted by: JKogas

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 03/22/07 10:52 PM

I'm not a big fan of the kiai. I haven't used that in over 20 years and haven't missed it.


-John
Posted by: Taison

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 03/23/07 01:03 AM

The only kiai I do sounds like air coming out of my gloves. "shh" sounds when punching.

The only time I go "Ah!" is when I throw someone or ko someone (which is rare. I find myself being ko'ed all the time).

-Taison out
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 03/23/07 05:26 AM

I still use verbal kiai as and when I wish, for training.

I also see it has use for self defense, certainly a vocal assistance to looking after yourself, and making others aware your in trouble can't be a bad thing.

Kiai certianly links with intent to some degree, it has it's place in our trianing- just not a fixed place!
Posted by: schanne

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 03/23/07 08:08 AM

Kiiiiiiiiiaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiii lol
Posted by: student_of_life

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 03/23/07 08:14 AM

i enjoy using kiai, and there are lots of reasons to use them, and many more not to. but i think its an important aspect of my budo, so i'll keep preaching it.

yours in life
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 03/23/07 12:06 PM

Ed is entirely correct (not that he needs my confirmation).

I've found that beginners need audible feedback both from themselves & their opponents/partners because most aren't naturally aggressive. So in teaching, I encourage audible kiai, however personally (not necessarily when training), kiai is internal.

(But I wonder...would the Yellow Bamboo folk disgree?)
Posted by: Neko456

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 03/23/07 12:35 PM

I agree with the general basic purpose of Kai training.
But I beleive Kia is the basic principle behind Kai/Chi training its all in the breath to build internal engery. As Ed mentioned it can be done silently.

But vocally a Kia can startle or mis-inform an opponent pending his skill level and if he's use to training with or without it.

If he use to Kia training with a strike, You Kia without the strike and either perfrom the strike before or after the Kia.

If he use to training without Kia, sometimes you can make them blink or raise or lower their guards with a Vocal shout out.

Now I'm not in favor of what I've seen in Kia masters, from the once well reguarded Prof. Geroge Dillman to many non-Asian and Asian flakes. Note the Kia Master beaten down when he faced a non student antangonist, I was embarassed for him.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 03/23/07 01:01 PM


a 'Kiai master' is a fake who knocks down 'opponents' with a verbal shout.

a 'Ki master' is a fake who knocks down people without touching them or without, necessarily, making a sound.

a 'Kia' is a fake car.
Posted by: oldcoach

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 03/23/07 02:45 PM

Quote:


a 'Kiai master' is a fake who knocks down 'opponents' with a verbal shout.

a 'Ki master' is a fake who knocks down people without touching them or without, necessarily, making a sound.

a 'Kia' is a fake car.



Posted by: Gaijinja

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 03/26/07 07:33 PM

Kiai, as I teach, serves several purposes:

Kiai, as the name implies, is used to harmonize one's energy, or ki. Now, I'm not talking about the mystical "ki master's" ki, but rather the ki that functions as a metaphor for your mind and various other body mechanics. When you "center your ki" you're just letting your mind focus in on the here and now. Kind of like "physche-ing yourself up" only in more calm and composed way. This kind of kiai is used before a break (especially a difficult one).

Secondly, a well timed Kiai helps add power to an attack. I think this more has to do with intent, but power is power, so it helps.

Lastly, a kiai acts as a defense against a counter-attack. That is why it typically accompanies a "finisher" technique in kata. If you get hit while moving in for a hard blow, you take more impact than if you were just standing still, so the kiai is a way to release all the air and tighten the hara.

Anyway, if you notice, none of these rely on an audible kiai. The sound is just secondary, in my opinion. If you make a sound, fine, if not, also fine, as long as the sound is a short quick one syllable sound ("Ki-ah" is two syllables) that you're not trying to force (this usually results in a horse throat, the tell tail sign of improper kiai).

Now, kiai that can knock opponents out, that's just crap, based off the crappy translation of "spirit shout." And who started pronouncing it Kia? It's not a car. That's almost as bad as Harry Carry.
Posted by: Unsu

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 03/26/07 09:41 PM

Understanding what kiai are, what they can be used for and the various types there are involves being trained by someone who truly understands "kiai-jutsu". You cannot use any kiai as a weapon all by itself.

Heres' a quick rundown of what kiai are and the psychology behind their use:

In times of duress the human animal will enter either a fight-or-flight mode. The former allows one to focus on a more offensive mindset. Predators, human or otherwise, use the adrenaline rush in order to accomplish a goal of subduing prey. In the human animal this is often utilized in order to rape, mug, maim, or murder. So how can the victim use a spirit yell in order to change the predatory instinct of an attacker? The "prey" can employ a kiai of authority, mimicking the attackers father, mother or another figure of authority which causes the aggressor to question himself and his motives. In this instance use of a very loud and short "HEY!!!" or an expletive "MUTHA FU--A!!!" basically letting them know that you are not gonna be easy prey can be a very effective psychological ploy, plus it serves to trigger your body to release even more adrenaline and take one out of the flight state of mind/body. In fact they (the attacker) may have bitten off more than they can chew so to speak. Their mind and body will begin to shift out of a mode of predatory focus into one of a prey animal and self-doubt.

Other kiai are used to startle prey animals like when a raptor screams as it swoops to grab a rabbit running along the ground. Coyotes will also use a high pitched yelp to freeze prey in their tracks before pouncing. The karate-ka can use this same ploy in order to break an opponents concentration and basically freeze them in their tracks.

Once you have shifted the aggressors mind to one of a fight response to the flight reaction the use of powerful phrases in a loud voice like "I TOLD YOU TO LEAVE ME ALONE NOW I HAVE TO KILL YOU!!!" or "YOU'RE BLEEDING EVERYWHERE!!!" will often put the predator (now your prey) into a state of near helplessness and shock.

So how do I know that this type of kiai-jutsu works? Because these are things I have used in real street fights before.

You can also use them to harden your body for impact, especially the midsection.

Just like Dillman and the use of PPs exclusively for fighing, kiai jutsu as seen in those clips is incomplete and ineffective against folks who are not afraid of you. Kiai jutsu is an integral part of good karate jutsu training, but it's use like dian xue or kyusho jutsu, is not an exclusive thing. It's use is in conjunction with the physical. Understanding the kiai's use in Okinawan karate is a must. Otherwise why do we learn to use diaphragmatic yelling in our forms and kihon training?

It definitely isn't to show the judges at a Paul Mitchell sponsored tourney that you have pizzazz! HYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY-YAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! x 30 seconds or more.

BTW those clips are ridiculous, but aren't most so-called martial artists just walking jokes anyway?!
Posted by: Curly

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 03/27/07 03:29 PM

Literal translation means "Spirit", if i'm not mistaken. What I was taught is that "kiai" means spirit, and in some parts of katas, (And for the 5th strike in a moving drill), is used to add extra "Spirit" to your technique.
Posted by: Gaijinja

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 03/27/07 07:50 PM

Quote:

Literal translation means "Spirit", if i'm not mistaken. What I was taught is that "kiai" means spirit, and in some parts of katas, (And for the 5th strike in a moving drill), is used to add extra "Spirit" to your technique.




Kiai is a compound word. The first part "Ki" means spirit, the second part "ai" means harmony. It's actually the reverse of the kanji in the aiki part of aikido.
Posted by: Curly

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 03/30/07 03:35 PM

^^Didn't know that. Thanks for the info
Posted by: cali141

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 03/31/07 11:20 PM

We train with kiais in some of our techniques, and are taught the proper times to use them. A kiai can be used for a variety of reasons.

1. The reason it translates into "spirit" is because at the very moment you deliver a loud, concentrated kiai, your mind is completely clear of all thought (go on, give it a try). With a clear mind, you are free to focus completely on a single strike, delivering it with maximum effectiveness. With a mind clouded by fear, uncertainty, and so on, you cannot focus completely on fully devoting yourself to the fight, more specifically the strike you use a kiai on.

2. To surprise the opponent. Most wouldn't be expecting their opponent to suddenly scream at them with full intensity. It catches most people off guard, making them confused when the person who delivered the kiai simultaneously moves in very quickly. Again, a clouded mind detracts from your ability to fight.

3. To completely drain all air from the lungs. When you exhale, right before you breathe in again, there is still some air in your lungs that has not been pushed out. A kiai forces a person to exhale completely. The main purpose of this is to prevent injury when falling (so you don't get the wind knocked out of you), or if you're taking a strike to the stomach.

Not sure about everyone else, but the way I know it, you don't have to literally say the word. I'm taught to just force every bit of air out of my lungs in a very loud manner. It actually sounds more like a very loud "hai" (for most people, at least).
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 04/01/07 03:04 PM

How many of you karateka lift weights? DO you grunt loudly when lifting heavy? This is often done exhaling and tightening the abs. Which would serve well to defend your midesction from striking damage, like getting the wind knocked out of you, while still instilling some fear into the opponent.
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 04/01/07 10:11 PM

A Kiai is a verbal cue to the other Bodyguards in an attempt to protect the "king" in the Shuri castle. The Kiai were sounded to call off the attack on the intruders and begin to protect the escape route as well as other signals later on. (you notice most Shotokan Kata have 2-3 Kiai's)

This is seperate from the concepts of breath control, energy and power. Those you may notice do not require audible yells.

Now the Kiai can and does serve other purposes some explained in the post, but the historical purpose of the loud yell was simply a signal. The other ideas and definitions were added later.
Posted by: Boomer

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 04/06/07 05:05 PM

Quote:

A Kiai is a verbal cue to the other Bodyguards in an attempt to protect the "king" in the Shuri castle. The Kiai were sounded to call off the attack on the intruders and begin to protect the escape route as well as other signals later on. (you notice most Shotokan Kata have 2-3 Kiai's)




Perhaps historically, but it was not named "kiai" at that time. Kiai originally had nothing to do with noise at all.

If you break down the word, it has 2 main components, "Ki", and "Ai". If we look into the meainings of these words, we can learn a lot. Instead of writing a page on the subject I will simplify it.
Using these two parts of the compound word, we can also come up with the word "aiki"...as in "aikido". In this sense, "aiki" means "blended energy".
If we then flip it around, we get "kiai". Here we can translate this as "focused energy".

So, VERY simply, a kiai is a focused energy.
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 04/06/07 10:13 PM

Quote:

Here we can translate this as "focused energy".





I learned it translated as loud yell, but that appears to be perhaps inncorrect, I also learned they were battle cries to signal troop movements, hence the Shuri Guard and Kata references. It all seemed to fit.

But upon further review, I would say this is one version of history written by some authors and or instructors.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 11/05/08 10:05 PM

I came across this today.

Quote:

Quote:

Literal translation means "Spirit", if i'm not mistaken. What I was taught is that "kiai" means spirit, and in some parts of katas, (And for the 5th strike in a moving drill), is used to add extra "Spirit" to your technique.




Kiai is a compound word. The first part "Ki" means spirit, the second part "ai" means harmony. It's actually the reverse of the kanji in the aiki part of aikido.




I always thought 'kiai' was a compound of the word 'ki' (spirit) and the onomatopoeia 'ai!' (in other words, a meaningless shout or yell).

In summary, could 'kiai' just mean 'spirited shouting' (rather than some deeper concept)? Ockham's razor and all that.
Thoughts anyone?
Posted by: BrianS

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 11/06/08 03:04 AM

I've always heard of it referred to as a "spirit shout". People can make as much or as little of it as they want.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 11/06/08 03:34 AM

That's my idea exactly - shouting 'Ai!' with spirit. No mystique.

In Oz it should be 'Oi!' of course. Hence:

'Aussie, Aussie, Aussie, kioi, kioi, kioi'

or

'C'arn the Eagles - kioi!' (the Eagles are my local football team).

Alternatively, 'to shout' is slang for buying a round of drinks. "Spirit shout" means buying a round of scotch at the pub!

Posted by: Barad

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 11/06/08 05:12 AM

Dan,

My understanding of the literal meaning of kiai was that it was composed of the same characters as in aikido so:

ai - joining, harmonizing
ki - spirit, life energy

The tightening in the tanden/stomach area and breathing out sharply is supposed to focus your ki energy (not by any means in a mystical sense but as the Japanese often use it just to mean physical energy or effort) and harmonise with the physical actions of the body in a strike or whatever it may be.

I am not sure "ai" means shout in an onomatapaeic way to a Japanese person but I will check with our Japanese student next week. Indeed although a lot of people shout loudly, especially and wrongly IMO from the throat (and sometimes with multiple syllables or even shouting "kiai") rather than starting in the stomach, I think a just audible or barely audible kiai is fine, as the primary effect is or should be on the practicioner, not on showing everyone around how terrifying you are...

I think the earlier suggestions that kiai (as found in all Shotokan kata twice except once in Wankan) was a signal to bodyguards in the Shuri castle or key to an escape route for the king are, frankly, BS. I think it tracks back to the same idiot author who thought Shotokan was an ancient Okinawan royal bodyguard art as opposed to a modern Japanese interpretation of Okinawan civil defence and that Tekki/Naihanchi showed a royal bodyguard moving side to side to protect the king.

Ben
Posted by: Shonuff

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 11/07/08 11:34 AM

Similar to Barad, I understood ai to mean harmony and ki to mean energy, not necessarily life energy, just energy as the word means in english. I believe I got this from one of Rob Redmonds old articles where he points out that the Japanese phrase for "I'm tired" uses the same "ki" in the context of lacking energy.

On the subject of onomatopoeia, I think in Bruce Clayton's book, or perhaps another Redmond article (or maybe it was angry white pyjamas) I read that the Japanese simply don't (or perhaps didn't) have or use onomatopoeia. The example I remember was that of a Japanese person saying "bark, bark" as opposed to "woof, woof" as english speakers do.

No idea how correct any of that stuff is.

As to the uses of kiai, I was always taught very practical purposes.

1. Scare your attacker, show them you are not afraid and you will give the fight your all. Most times in nature, predators won't risk themselves against such an opponent.

2. Breathe. Shouting forces you to use your lungs where fear or tension may cause you to hold your breath, and shouting on strikes makes you use them correctly despite adrenalin. This is the main reason Olympic TKD stylists can't shut up, it regulates their breathing.

3. Expell as much air from your lungs so if you are caught by a blow as you launch your own you won't be winded so easily, this accompanies the (Nakayama) Shotokan idea of kime where the bodies muscles are contracted as the strike is thrown, creating a rigid structure to break the oncoming mass of your opponent on.

4. Alert people around that there is a fight going on and that you could use some help. Imagine waking up at 2am to the sound of stone shaking kiai's outside. Your going to take a look.

Over time I came to find that there was a fith use which I had been told of but did not buy into one bit.

5. Building spirit in the class. By that I mean confidence and determination and drive. Perhaps it's not transferable to the board room, but when you watch beginners who can barely muster a squeek when you asked for a shout, you can see that there minds are throwing up every little insecurity and fear, paralysing them with self conciousness instead of driving through with the task at hand. These are prey until they can learn to shout no matter how they feel.

6. It feels good. Sweat pouring off you, muscles and lungs aflame and you get to the ten count and the room erupts, "Kiai!". It certainly adds atmosphere if nothing else.
Posted by: Uchinanchu

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 11/10/08 01:27 AM

Hi Ed, for the most part, I agree with you. I do want to mention, though, that not ALL so-called traditionalists would make such an argument. Though we practice kiai in our forms and normally commit to a kiai in a particular set location, our sensei (as well as others) does not consider it "Wrong" to kiai in different areas of the form.
I was taught that since the kiai is based upon the individual's focus/intent, that it is not only ok, but beneficial to release it when said focus/intent is reached (regardless of the strike/kick being performed within the kata).
As far as applications go, one of the main areas that some dojo focus upon has to do with taking/absorbing counter strikes from an opponent while simultaniously delivering your own (and hopefully minimizing injury to yourself in the process). For example, the kiai that we use sounds something like "eeahee!" Not only does the kiai help train the diaphram, but the specific sound markers create muscle tension in the neck and around the throat, allowing for a better chance of continied breathing after sustaining a strike in that region.
Hope this bit of info helps.
Yoroshiku!
Posted by: TenjinoIchi

Re: A Kiai Too Far! What Does Kiai Mean to You? - 11/29/08 07:35 AM

With my opinion, Kiai is just releasing our energy. As an explosive energy before you really hit your opponent.

Mental war and controlling the opponent's mind can be made from Kiai, make them frozen for seconds before we hit them.