How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes???

Posted by: Neko456

How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/04/07 04:17 PM

How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? In a lot of present practiced system you don't see them trained. In our 1st level of tourney sparring you don't see them much. In the barefisted stuff they reappear, at the third level combo training they disappear; they come back at the 4th level because we are clinching and any grab to neck or side of head can and is a knife hand strike 1st then a grab, if you can. 5th level its there bc of same reason.

I've noticed that from every system I've trained in from Escrima, Kali, Silat, Kuntoua, Pankartian, N. African, TKD, Chanu-fa, Karate, Jujitsu, to the Fairbanks Combat system teach the use of this hand formation.

Why is it not trained now? Is it bc of Gloves? Range? Ineffectiveness? No faith in the technique.

Personally within its range mines are as effective as right/left hooks for others, same clothes line or smashing effect.

Why have we lost faith in this strike? Or have we?
Posted by: MattJ

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/04/07 04:29 PM

Personally, I don't like them, never used them. IMHO, they have poor structural integrity (due to the elongated fingers) compared to regular punching or hammerfists. I would use a heel palm over a knife hand.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/04/07 04:38 PM

Tensho kata eveals some nice things to do with the knifehand,which in my opinion is still very effective and valid for self defense. Never stopped training them myself.
Posted by: cxt

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/04/07 04:42 PM

Neko

Personal opinion???

I'd say that you hit the nail on the head when you said "tournys."

Lots of stuff that you can't do in tournaments that should be practiced--preferably on a heavy bag.

Tournaments "can" be an insidious thing.

Could always be mistaken of course--and I'm speaking just for me.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/04/07 04:57 PM

what is the criteria for 'valid'?

is it valid to hit in the neck? is it valid to use closed fist on hard targets?

somewhere out there, there is someone who's trained knife hand strikes their whole life and have conditioned their hands accordingly...if I'm afraid of being hit by them, then they are valid.

there is one story I heard recently of a man conditioning his knife hand strikes so intensely and for so many years, his fingers were all the same length. probably not true...but if it is true...
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/04/07 05:23 PM

A knife-hand (shuto-uchi in karate) never uses the fingers - that would be just plain dangerous to the user. The correct point of impact is the outside edge (little-finger side) of the palm.

The shuto can be a very effective strike when used appropriately. The reason you rarely, if ever, see them used in competition is the increased risk of jabbing an eye.

And grabbing the head or neck isn't always the same as a shuto. A grab usually follows a strait line from your hand to the head. A shuto, whether palm-up or palm-down, follows a curved path.

owari
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/04/07 05:38 PM

Personally the knife hand motion is a typical example of 'modern' karate showing its lack of utility.

A couple of actual uses are along the lines of -

1. ox jar, seiriuto (sorry been a long time since I wrote that one), ie using the muscle of the hand, blast it out into an arm, down onto a collar bone, across the temple etc etc, very effective strike.

2. forearm chop, strike it into the neck at an angle, use it as a wedge to blast an arm out of the way when wrestling, use it as a big deflection from a hands forward position etc etc.

The shuto is a core karate technique and has loads of use IMO, of course it is a strike and as such is part of a combination.

The utility is lost if it is not conditined a little, for most people anyhow.

Just some ideas we work, not a complete overview of the technique by any means.
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/04/07 05:40 PM

Never used them although I imagine they could be quite effective in certain situations. Particularly for striking the neck, they are more structurally suited to this than a hammer-fist. Knife hand to the base of the skull from a low MT-style clinch or a shoulder-lock is one of the techniques I was taught once. Make sure you impact with the side of your palm and not your fingers. If you train them on a heavy bag you can see that they're not as bad as they seem.
Posted by: koji112091

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/04/07 09:53 PM

Hi
knife-hand strikes are very steriotyped.
The avrage person hears somebody say karate and they atuomaticaly think of knife-hand strike ,but thay usaly call them karate chops.

What i think about them is that they are dangerious to your oponent but they are easy to block.
i know that if you break there collar bone they wont fight back.
unless there super human
Posted by: IRKguy

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/04/07 10:24 PM

In many cases, the difference between a taisho and a shuto is fifteen degrees, sometimes less. It is nearly the same striking surface, depending on your timing and angle. The fingers don't come into it except, as with a palmheel, to get them out of the way and then deploy after contact. A palmheel to the face should be followed by a clawing to the face, a knifehand block should transition to a grab. A knifehand fits into spots a hammerfist will not (if we're keeping our chins down), and it allows for a grab and followup. It it not too useful in gloved sparring events. It's a fighting technique.

That said, I would love for someone to explain the validity of a spearhand. My middle finger is a half inch longer than the index and ring, and I do not trust it as a striking weapon even to soft tissue. It would make more sense to use my second knuckles. In my kata, I always change the angle to make it a knifehand, rigdehand, a tigerclaw (probably not a universal term--like a ridgehand but with the thumb cocked to grab, usually to the throat), or a grab. I just cannot see how I can use it as an impact weapon and still be able to type.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/04/07 10:36 PM

the other aspect is the transition from striking to grabbing/grappling/wrapping up, etc....since you need an open hand to transition to these things - may as well hit with some type of open hand. or like mentioned, if hitting with a forearm - why close the fist?
Posted by: MattJ

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/04/07 10:44 PM

Quote:

or like mentioned, if hitting with a forearm - why close the fist?




Fair enough, good point. But a forearm strike is not a knife-hand, is it? Forearm strike has very little danger of accidently hitting the fingers, unlike a knifehand. Yeah, I know, if you train enough....etc. But that's my point - I would rather use a technique with more structural integrity. MHO.
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/04/07 11:12 PM

Well, one thing is that the surface area of a knife hand is smaller and narrower than say, an elbow or a palm heel. This means it is easier to slip a knifehand under someone's chin or through a block than it would be to use an elbow or palm heel. Of course, the angles of attack are different too so it can't be used in all situations.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/04/07 11:23 PM

...I was addressing the point made earlier that some things are stereotyped or interpreted to be 'knife hand', when in fact they aren't used as such (for instance, as hedkikr pointed out -a 'shuto' is not a 'knife hand', it's a circular movement used for simultaneous parry and striking the neck with the edge of the hand at an angle and often carried thru as a wrapup).

however, I've been hit in the neck before with fingertips...it friggin hurts. the kind of pain that you feel in your toes.

every strike doesn't have to necessarily be a show stopper (although I agree, it's the goal in spirit) - but something like striking with fingers...if it's there and you're in a precarious position...maybe it happens to be the best thing to do at the time. but spend any length of time training it? nah. I haven't done the hand condition. I wouldn't underestimate it though if someone trained it and knew what they were doing.
Posted by: CVV

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/05/07 12:30 AM

Techniques like gohon or nihon or ippon nukite are very effective towards eyes, throath/side of the neck, plexus.
You can condition the fingers so you can strike as hard as with fist but this takes a lot of conditioning.
I condition only through a pincher and finger tip push-up, so I limit myself to the targets I stated above. I also hit a gymnastics matras put against the wall with gohon nukite sometimes.

In sparring I use it in a randori (free technical fighting, setting up free combinations in a continous fighting rhytm, usually at 50 - 75 % speed and power). In jyu kumite it is usually a fight stopper to the eyes or throath, but then I do not use it too much (too much competition fighting I guess).

In sanchin,tensho and sesan kata, there is a movement where the fingers are thrusted into the flesh and then fists are created after the thrust into a hikite movement. You can interprete that as grasping skin/flesh and then twisting it.
When training it with partner, this hurts but in sparring/clinching you can take a lot more and it gives nice bruses. Sometimes it has effect in free fighting but I don't know in a real altracation. It is effective though with skin from the side of the neck, pinching also the artories or the throath pinching the adams apple or the cheeck (but caution, counter attack = biting, make sure you grab the skin and move upwards) or the testicles.

Ther are also fingertip strikes like in sepai towards the testicles (after the elbow lock, relaesing and 180/270 turn)
or like in hakucho (Matayoshi) towards the eyes.
Posted by: IRKguy

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/05/07 12:55 AM

In theory, those spearhands in Sanchin don't have to be impact weapons. Really, you're striking near the ribs, and those ribs are stronger than your middle finger. In other versions of the same kata, you're doing crane-style grabs. I just can't see striking someone's belly, getting hold of the ribs, and turning them over. I know we might be OTS at this point, but how is this movement different from Seiuchin? It's a difference of angle.

In my version of Seisan, the closest thing to a spearhand is three ridgehands after the first turn.

If you want to rely on conditioning, you can make anything do anything. I'm talking about practical application for someone who hits a makiwara a few times a week but does not bother with the whole hot sand thing, since he has to write and type for a living.

I'm not trying to dis. I just want to know how the spearhand can be useful. Even for eyegouging, a three-finger strike is better than a one-finger strike.
Posted by: CVV

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/05/07 01:28 AM

Quote:

In theory, those spearhands in Sanchin don't have to be impact weapons. Really, you're striking near the ribs, and those ribs are stronger than your middle finger. In other versions of the same kata, you're doing crane-style grabs. I just can't see striking someone's belly, getting hold of the ribs, and turning them over. I know we might be OTS at this point, but how is this movement different from Seiuchin? It's a difference of angle.





There are no ribs in the belly, there are ribs in the chest and you cannot grab ribs, I agree. But try it in the belly, or on the sides and twist the skin if you can grab it. I think it has no value there in real fighting but using this technique in the neck or the adams apple or the cheeck has value I think.
The seiunchin nukite in the first 3 steps can easily be changed into a teisho to the side.
( What is OTS ??? ).

Quote:

In my version of Seisan, the closest thing to a spearhand is three ridgehands after the first turn.




In our version this is a teisho to chin or nose. But in application can also be nukite to nose/eyes.

Quote:

If you want to rely on conditioning, you can make anything do anything. I'm talking about practical application for someone who hits a makiwara a few times a week but does not bother with the whole hot sand thing, since he has to write and type for a living.

I'm not trying to dis. I just want to know how the spearhand can be useful. Even for eyegouging, a three-finger strike is better than a one-finger strike.



Direct effect in the throath side of the neck and alongside the adams apple and the groin in my opinion. And can be applied in these area's without too much conditioning.

Why is a three finger strike better than a one finger strike ? Because the fingers support each other ?

I used a fingertip push into the eyes as a controling technique once in an altraction and it worked quite good. The 'opponent' had sore and very red eyes tearing all the time and his will to fight was broken at that point. But there are also 'opponents' who do not stop. But at least the vision is disturbed for a while.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/05/07 03:38 AM

in relation to the nukite, or spear hand again it is misrepresented in alot of more 'modern' systems, ie in kata it is practised as four fingers together, thumb on side.

I was shown, and have researched it to be inaccurate, a slight change that makes alot of difference to the structure of the strike-

Simply allow your index and little finger to almost meet, over the other 2 fingers, and allow the palm to cup a little, compresing the bones of the hand, the thumb folds down to meet the middle knuckle of the index finger.

You are now hitting with a much more effective hand, imagine conditioning the hand significantly and you should see that the strike has utility.

As a starting point one of the bunkai I teach in Pinan Sho, for the nukite with the other hand under the arm, think of pulling a head down and striking the nukite into the side of the neck.

Nearly all of the open hand, and come to think of it closed fist methods seem to have been changed for ease of learning and easy training,

I think this is mainly down to lack of use of the open hand methods which I feel were significant in the older art, when of course general training was perhaps for a different reason in the main.

I try my best to make this right at our dojo, but I am at best a part time enthusiast!

the hanging sand bag is the way to go for all the single knuckle and open hand techniques, its a safe training method that had good effect,

I posted a picture of my hanging sad bag on my Blog recently.

Its also perfect for toe kicks!

Im midway into writing a paper discussing the open hand and single knuckle methods, ie proper hand formations, once its done I will link it up so people can see and hopefully get something from it.
Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/05/07 07:31 AM

I like the sonnal chigi (knife hand strike). It slips in to places other strikes won't sometimes and has it's uses. I see it as something to be used like a half fist or leopards paw strike. I wouldn't use it all the time but at certain times, it is the perfect strike or block for that matter.

I like it as a block because after you make contact, it is a simple matter to close the hand on the limb and turn it into a grab all in one motion as opposed to making the fist, hard blocking, and then trying to grab. They slide into the back of joints well too.

They work well for me but may not work for you or fit into your style of fighting. It works for me.

Scottie
Posted by: CVV

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/05/07 07:44 AM

I was thaught to to bring the middle finger on top of the index and the ring finger, pushing the 3 fingers together, creating a striking point of 3 fingers. By 'cupping' the hand a little, the 3 fingers will be aproximantly the same length and fingers are bend in a way that if the resistance of the targetted area is to hight your fingers will bend in a natural way. The thumb and little finger press on each side to support more tension in the hand/fingers, thumb is bend.

I once read about a makiwara for finger strikes, made out of a boards that can be hold by one hand and tapped with the other. A,other instrument is called a TOU, wich is a bundle of small bamboo sticks that you hit with your fingers and try to penetrate as deeply as possible. (never used it though)
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/05/07 08:06 AM

From experience open hand techniques are much harder to train into students than closed fist techniques. Yet there are Chinese systems that consider the open hand techniques more advanced by far than closed fists.

The reasons are clear. The closed fist can strike to point and/or shearing plane, it does not permit as much variety as the open hand strikes to to shape the charge of the strike into the opponent.

But as I said it takes work to understand and use them.

Back in 1975 in NYC, there was a local fighter "Quick-Draw" McGraw who used only flurries of knife hand strikes in kumite, and most frequently was throwing so many repeated knife hand strikes, the closed fist fighters couldn't deal with them. I have not seen his like since.
Posted by: IRKguy

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/06/07 01:42 AM

CVV:

By OTS I meant off the subject, since I was talking about a different technique. I'd seen it used on this forum and elsewhere and was trying to be hip. I'm not a frequent poster and had assumed it was commonly used. I guess I will just have to wait until it's hip to be square again.

Your take on the first three steps in Seiuchin makes a lot more sense than trying to spearhand under the floating ribs, especially since you immediately turn in the direction you batted the opponent. I suppose once you are behind him you have a gi choke, ridgehand to the neck, and a neck-break. The third step then is some other problem, which explains why you pull him back, punch, and empi. I'll grab someone tomorrow to test this bunkai.

I know there are no ribs in the belly. My problem was that in a fighting situation the difference between jabbing under the ribs and into the ribs is too close to risk breaking a finger. I've seen versions of Sanchin where those knifehands were actually blocking ridgehands followed by grabs. It's almost Seiuchin again on a different angle. We're not disagreeing on this point. I'm just still working on it in my mind, since it seems to me that the shortest kata: Naihachi and Sanchin deserve special attention, and I want each movement to carry more weight because the kata are so short. In my current understanding, there are no spearhands in Naihachi. I rationalize the two spearhand-looking movements as grappling moves.

For throat, groin, and Adam's apple attacks, I might still want to use a ridgehand (a five to 30 degree difference), both to save my fingers and allow a quick grab.

What I mean by a three-finger attack is a clawing motion with the three strongest fingers. I feel it is better for two reasons: the finger is not rigid and will not be broken if it hits bone--and can scrape until it hits its moving target, and there is the buckshot effect, since three fingers are more likely to hit the moving target than one. Of course, once one finger hits, the wrist turns over and the other fingers support the finger that has found a soft target. At that point, it might look a lot like a spearhand.

You've given me a lot to think about and something to work on in class tomorrow. Thany you.
Posted by: im_no_angel

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/06/07 01:31 PM

Generally , Knife hand is rarely to be used in Kumite ,or the street fight
but the reverse version ( haito ) is widely used in many competitions . Its KO power is no less than a closed fist, but requires much more speed and timing skill
but tsuki ( closed fist ) still the best , dont try to compare our punch to boxing punch , because what? ( our punch uses hip rotation , relax ,stances,and chambering )
karateka without closed fist is not a karateka
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/06/07 01:38 PM

Quote:

karateka without closed fist is not a karateka



what's your thoughts on that statement, Victor? lol
Posted by: CVV

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/07/07 12:35 AM

Quote:

Generally , Knife hand is rarely to be used in Kumite ,or the street fight
but the reverse version ( haito ) is widely used in many competitions . Its KO power is no less than a closed fist, but requires much more speed and timing skill
but tsuki ( closed fist ) still the best , dont try to compare our punch to boxing punch , because what? ( our punch uses hip rotation , relax ,stances,and chambering )
karateka without closed fist is not a karateka




Tsuki means punch. Seiken means closed fist.
If you ever learn how to box you will learn that they do have stances, hip rotation, chambering all from relaxed upper body up till moment of impact.

Analyzing goju-ryu kata and the seiken tsuki.

Gekisai 1 and 2. Frequent use of seiken fist. Considered 'beginners' kata.

Sanchin. Modern version uses the seiken fist, transformed from nukite.

Saifa. Only 1 seiken tsuki. (I consider the original morote hiraken tsuki).

Seiunchin, no seiken tsuki.

Shishoschin, no seiken tsuki.

Sanseru. Multiple use of seiken tsuki.

Sepai. No seiken tsuki, I consider nakadaka ippon ken.

Sesan. Multiple use of seiken tsuki.

Kururunfa. No seiken tsuki.

Suparinpei. Multiple use of seiken tsuki.

Tensho. No use of seiken tsuki.

So in the 12 kata of the system, only 6 uses the seiken fist frequently. 5 do not use it at all. And 1 (saifa) has a strange use as the hikite (chamber) is upside down, indicating that it might be transformed from another technique in the past.

Akira Shiomi sensei (former national coach Japanese kata team JKF) once said at a seminar that the seiken tsuki was a basic tool used for training and competition. True self-defense technique uses hand techniques like keiko-ken nakadaka-ken hira-ken nukite tip toe kicks etc... directed at specific spots on the body.
In that same 'elan' I once read a statement from an Okinawan shinshi (don't remember exactly who) that the seiken was for kids. (meaning a learning tool).
Posted by: jasperdaman

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/07/07 03:03 AM

The technique is only as effective as the practioner of the technique makes it. Enough said
Posted by: Neko456

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/08/07 01:12 PM

I agree with you. But I was polling to see who thinks its still effective and if they don't then why is taught in so many known to be effective fighting systems?

I never thought the subject would come up what is a Shuto- uchi or Knife hand?? But what should I expect from a people that practice an art that seeks perfection.

I see know problem with using Shuto in any form, but I'm not that much of a perfectionist, if I hit/miss with the shuto and my forearm hits the neck, the guy goes down or is shunned pretty bad, I flow into a finish. But in my mind it is what my mind precieved it to be, it started as a Shuto thats my stroy and I'm sticking to it.

Have shuto worked for you in training or in the real world? In use is it natural?
Posted by: im_no_angel

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/09/07 10:40 AM

every strike itself has it own use , if you picked shuto , its' fine ,but remember , not every situation it will work

here's a vid that demonstrates seiken effectively -by the SDF of Japan : http://youtube.com/watch?v=7Beft4Z80uU
Posted by: cxt

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/09/07 10:53 AM

Neko

Interesting point---got me thinking.

In the Gekisi kata there is a VERY "overt" knife hand strike.

Only its not a knife hand strike at all.

Its "really" an elbow strike at very close range--it only "looks" like a knife hand because when you do it in kata you relax you arm a bit---in effect you make an elbow strike--but then you allow the mommentum to kind of "shoot" the hand out into what appears to be a knife hand.

See someone do the kata--you think its a knifehand.

See someone working the the same technique in the dojo--hitting a heavy bag with it, or with a partner--you see its a very different thing.

Sorry to go a bit off topic---just got me thinking.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/09/07 02:32 PM

In our two man bunikas it done as a sweep avoidance or stomp shuto/knife hand strike.

But I could see elbow, haito or even choke with that motion. This is Gakisai series Fukyu katas.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: How valid are KNIFE HAND strikes??? - 01/09/07 02:42 PM

No one saying seiken is not effective but sometimes you need a hammer other times a phillip screw driver, sometime a pipe wrench. I suggest using the appropiate tool for the approipiate job, just don't forget the shuto-uchi/open hand strikes.

Thanks for your input. Seiken/tsuki works great for me too.