Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu

first premise in any style when doing impact training is, if you recoil anything into your body, you aren't doing it right. so if you feel anything 'buckle'...find out why.

at first, I was comparing to what I was familiar...but I realized that isn't the best way to absorb what another style has to offer. like learning a different language, it's much better (but harder) to 'clear the slate' and think in terms of the language as oppossed to mentaly translating.

A couple of things my body timing had a hard time adjusting to:
* matsubayashi's whip-like punch. first thing is knowing how to hit with a relaxed fist. imagine your hand as a 10lb weight at the end of a wet towel. lead with the hara...follow with the hip...follow with the shoulder...and let the rest fly out - all in one motion. don't 'muscle' or 'push' the punch. Matsubayashi gets it's power from the snap like the end of a weighted towel.

* rising power (this is more apparent in the kata) - starting with knees slightly bent, and during the same time as doing what I described above, push with the legs up and into the target. this might give the effect of leaning forward, but it's not - it's driving up and into the target.

power in matsubayashi is pretty good with both of those elements timed.

those were the two main things I looked at. the shuri stepping, I never really got down well. supposedly, it's deceivingly easy...but I worked on nothing else for a month one time and 'natural stance' stepping just never felt natural. lol probably I was learning or thinking about it wrong.

Ed what is your footwork like? After watching you perform that kata you seem to be quick on your feet.

Alright about the power transfer. I did seem like you were whipping the arm more then normal. Although I don't know how you normally punch. I do not know much about Matsubayashi Ryu so I guess I am not much help.

But I do have a question do you think by changing your punch in this manner helped you? If so then you have done well. I know it would be hard for me to change you I reverse punch after all these year.

Wow, very nice. Make another video in a year and we'll get to see you punch right through that pillar in the room(nice place to train, BTW).

The hip movement looks like the sine wave in ITF TKD(also in WTF, we just don't have a cool name for it). I wouldn't be surprised if your punches tended to "pierce" someone when sparring(I'll make a thread on it eventually).

One thing I find difficult to grasp is the "relaxing" of the punch as you described. I've heard of it before, but I've never been taught that way.

Ed, how do those power generation methods apply to other techniques? Perhaps kicks, combinations, etc. It seems as if the hip movement is heavily emphasized. The back motion is very subtle, or maybe its just your uber speed. I like the way you "put" your back into it, as opposed to "throwing" your back into it.

Unfortunately I don't have much knowledge to offer, but I hope this was worth reading.

Pretty good for a geezer. Just kidding

I get:

"The Playlist format is not recognized."

I am on a Mac, but I don't have any troubles at Youtube or anything. Any suggestions? I should be able to view .rm, .mov. .avi. .wmv, mpeg, so I don't know the prob...

'uber speed' lol I'm standing still compared to my Goju sensei.

relaxed punch or loose fist punch has been talked about:
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/15788339/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1
(I was the 'kintama' incarnation)

The back thing wasn't mentioned with the ueshiro-ha guys...but check with medulanet, he's the resident matsubayashi guru.

looking at it again, I guess what I was doing was a throwback to what I learned with the Kimura-shukokai folks.

make a tensioned bow from your back heel to the top of your head...then spring the bow loose to add velocity to your arm at the right time.

in any system, there are 3-dimensions of things going on at once: rising/falling power (height), bow-like spring from the backside (width), and what your core/hips are doing (depth). getting all 3 of those things going with decent alignment is the goal for this type of exercise. but...getting in position to pull this off is another matter all together. different exercise.

the idea of training single technique with impact (not only boxing a bag or punching air), is that it builds good alignment habits during the impulse of the strike. Makiwara sortof falls short at this (although good for other things). a body doesn't spring back when you hit it...in order to train penetration into a target, we need to maintain during followthru. I'm not aiming for the surface of the bag, I'm aiming for the back of it. the technique doesn't end on contact - it ends when you've gone thru. that space/time between contact and penetration is what you focus on. someone holding an impact pad is even better since you get feedback from them. can't do any of that on a maki.

you are sure you can play .wmv ? it's a standard windows media format.

Opens in Windows Media for me.

Anyways ... nice Ed. I'm no expert and can't offer any opinions other then that. I was thinking it was bold of you to put these up of yourself but after watching them I can see why you would have no problem doing so.

The punch do somewhat look like the WTF punch I've learned though there is more of a chambering effect in ours but the body weight transfer is similar. However this type of punching we normally only do in patterns or when breaking techniques whether is is elbows, fist, knife hands, etc. For bag or focus mitt work we using the boxing method ... as well when MMA sparring.

Again, good on you for providing this. If this wasn't linked to another thread in the Martial Arts Talk forum, I would have missed it all together.

A few things. Rise into head/face punches, body punches that are designed to strike up into the ribs, strikes to the underside of limbs. Sink into strikes that attack the body cavities and the top of limbs. Leaving the fist out after a strike in Matsubayashi is a very basic exercise used to check form. The relaxed strike of matsubayashi is meant to whip out and right back for follow up strikes (not from a chamber either from a guard position). This strike does not push (although it can have knockdown power) but penetrates. When used correctly the bag folds, it does not sway. In the case of a bag set up that Ed mentions it would probably do both. It would swing after it was folded. I personally like kick shields/muay thai pads rather than heavy bags for my power work. But if you have no partner they are okay.

There should be no back sway on techniques due to its counter productive nature. In matsubayashi, especially in front stance, we sink with great potential to move forward. Its like a boulder on the top of a hill with a door stop preventing it from rolling. To start the boulder rolling you don't have to push, just remove the stop. This is how all stances are in matsubayashi. This is how we move, just remove the stop. The strikes in matsubayashi are a unison of hara and hand. The hara adds to the power just at the moment of impact. The thing about the style is its useage is fundamentally linked proper execution of technique. In fact its bunkai of kata is as well. I have seen very few non okinwans understand it. However, there are some guys who learned from Nagamine a long time ago and were taught things that most people are only recently figuring out about karate.

Ed, can you host this video till at least sunday please, I am on dial up until then, and would love to see it. cheers buddy.

thats correct, this type of impact training is just for test/tweaking form and experimenting with different structures and whatnot. the things learned from doing that can be applied to a more free and loose adhoc type of bagwork that you also describe.

also to note, different hand forms (heal palm, vertical fist, forearm strikes, elbows, etc) can be extrapolated from the basic punch technique...and then adjusted to various leg attacks. then like I mention, mixing all of that into freeform bagwork. most people just go straight into freeform bagwork apparently from what they see in movies - just 'wail on the bag'. it's good for releiving stress, but I tend to try and actually study an art instead of hack my way thru.

medulanet, some of what you describe, I was trying to get (fold, not push - weight transfer, etc) according to matsubayashi philosophies...in your opinion, what elements was I missing?

Props for manning up with a video, Ed. I gotta get a DVD ripper for my stuff with RazorFoot.

Very crisp with the kata. I like the core integration and weight transfer with the punch you showed.

OUS!
hi ed, i trained in matsubayashi ryu back in the 80s for a little over a year also. i could not look at the bag work as the link did not work. to me the kata kukyugata looks very much like a japanese kata not very okinawan. i did not see any short stances like in a lot of their kata but i love the kata and you have great power, focus and i can tell you generate a lot of power from your hips. very impressive thank you.

mike

I thought the use of the 'loose/soft fist punch' (a.k.a. 'whip punch' in the Five Ancestors System from Fukien Province) to generate power in the kata was pretty impressive. It's a pity that you are stopping here as it would be a real challenge to apply all those loose fist punch principles in a more complex kata with chops, finger-thrusts, back-fists, palm-strikes.

This kind of punch with a vibratory effect on impact is meant to penetrate beyond the flesh and into the internal organs, without leaving a big black bruise on the skin. Because the energy for the punch started way back in the legs, it's very good for ultra short-range strikes, especially palm-heel strikes which should not start from a chambered position as in a fist strike because palm-heel strikes are usually a simultaneous one-handed block and strike all in one motion. Without the 'whipping' effect, the short-range palm-heel is next to useless.

If it's not too much to ask, can we see a sanchin kata by you, without the upper gi of course, purely for purposes of seeing the power transfer effect of the breath.

Yeah Ed...don't be shy....topless.

(BTW, BF...I'm still waiting for a PM from my 'friend'. )

Okay, I got it to work. I will limit myself to possible places of improvement as I see it. Please don't think I am saying I am better. Just trying to provide some comments like you requested.

1. Are you throwing those punches upside down and turning just at point of impact? If not, you should be.

2. Do you feel your feet properly "rooted" into the ground? We like to "grab" the floor before/when we punch.

3. You don't have much of a neck so it is hard to tell, but are your shoulders relaxed enough?

4. I didn't see enough "connection" with your koshi perhaps. I get the feeling those punches are pushed more than thrown like an arrow. Although, as Medulanet said, some punches should be thrown like the arro/ball and some not. Could be related to "koshi" issue.

5. Stepping before punching - We generally say you step before you punch and although I think there must be some overlap when moving fast like this, I wonder if you shouldn't be more cognizant of that when doing kata. It might also help with the "grabbing the floor" issue. I see this especially in the side punches. I think if you held your punch back a moment longer, so that it coincides with the hip rotation, it might be better.
6. Throwing leg out from koshi as opposed to "stepping".
This is another kind of advance way of thinking about it. Instead of stepping forward, it is better to think of it as throwing the leg out from the koshi.

That's all I came up with for now, and again, they are not really criticisms, but rather ways to think that may yield even more improvement on very good looking kata.

re: Sanchin - answer: No. lol

The only reason I didn't mind putting these out here is because it's stuff I'm not working on. we hardly even 'punch' in Goju. it's stand-up, open-hand, grappling-range, heal-palm, forearm/knee strikes, violent throws, head manipulation, neck-cranks...and murder. lol j/k (kinda).

If Goju belongs on video, the person teaching it to me will decided to put it there...or not.


The kata fukyugata san, is composed by an Okinawan student of Nagamine on Okinawa and not practiced in Japan. Ueshiro-ha has no branches in Japan as far as I know. It has the same look/feel as what the other basic Okinawan katas look like...their classic katas are a completely different story. Perhaps Japanese classic kata were later made to look like Okinawan basic kata?

The first 2 fukyugata were composed at a time when japan was doing nasty things to china. the fukyugata wouldn't have gone over well if they looked 'too chinese'.

perhaps Ueshiro was just trying to make a kata with the same look/feel but with basic techniques he liked but were missing from 1&2. (chasing punch in horse stance, lo-high reverse combo, block/strike without step - those don't appear in 1&2).

thanks for sharing the thoughts! I was half-expecting to get roasted...or worse, the thread die with 0 posts. lol

hi aoishi, thanks for your version of pointers. what would be interesting before I answer is hearing what medulanet thinks about the tips you gave, and if that matches the matsubayashi ideas of what he does.

after all...I'm not a MB guy and only played around with the style for a year.

but I will say, the only time I've heard to keep the fist unturned till the very end, was when I was a kid...it helped serve to keep our elbows down. after we got rid of the bad habit of 'winging' punches, when,if and how to twist the punch became insignificant...as long as the alignment and transfer were there, it becomes more efficient to let it turn naturally. twisting at the very end is too slow and screws up kime. you've been doing MA for 1.5 or 2 years now? give it a couple more years, you'll see what I mean.

Okay, Ed, we'll see what Medula says.

BTW, I've been doing it 2 years now

About the punch, noted!

hi ed i have been doing it a few more then 2 years i was taught as a beginner way back when, to start to turn the fist midway through the punch in jka shotokan till i switched to kenkojuku shotokan here i was taught to do twist the fist at the very end. it had nothing to do about elbows but when the fist connects and as you are punching through the body your are damaging muscle tendon and so forth, i believe there is more to it but i cannot remember. as far as the elbows are concern, to keep my elbow back during oi zuki(lunge punch)imagine using the rear elbow as empi uchi(elbow strike). i think i have always punch with a twist in the end because of repetitive motion. just like when you do a mae geri(front kick) you do not swing your leg up.

mike

I was taught a thrust punch and a snap punch when you are wanting a different affect, crushing vs. internal damage. The only difference is alway i was taught to tighten the fist upon impact, then relax after impact.

Does Matsubayashi-ryu have a thrust strike/punch?

Ed I would have like to see the punch with both hands and yes indeed that was a very strong kata, I saw a sanchin stance on the left side but you corrected it on your right. You can take a duck on water but its still a duck. Meaning its hard to escape your past training completely, seemed like you really tried to empty your cup. (Yes I talk like this all the time, or worst pending how many beers) lol.

Ed what is your final resolution, did you learn anything worth retaining being that you have moved on. Just wondering I usually learn something when I cross train, even if its I can't or won't use that, its still knowledge gained + or -.

well, my honest opinion is that I don't think I had a very good introduction to what matsubayashi is all about. 1 year is not enough, plus the depth of knowledge of the instructors were a bit one-dimentional so I had to look at the details myself. a great family dojo for sure...but lacking in depth. It helped for me to get back into shape after some time off - plus everyone there was nice.

my sense is that it's a great fighting style, but not many teach it as such.

here is a collection of video showing some characteristic Matsubayashi movement. in some of them, they appear to be exaggurating the whip...this could either be as a training aide or for demonstration - but I know it's not meant as application since it would be way too slow to do all that extra motion.
http://www.okinawabbtv.com/culture/karate/index.htm

notice though, when he does it fast, the 'exagguration' goes away and you can barely tell he's whipping or double-hipping.

If this style interests you, make sure you watch all the clips when you have time. enjoy.

Okay Ed, the main thing I see with your technique is what I would refer to as shoulder punching. When in natural stance or front stance the shoulders should be square or in the process of squaring upon impact. If you look at the video when it is at 1/4 speed your punching and koshi are disconnected. Your hips are over rotated before you even make contact. Again, in matsubayashi proper technique is the key to power and application. The oi zuki punch where hips are fully rotated into a horse stance/jigotai dachi is another principle and more advanced. Actually my personal opinion is that Ueshiro added the extra kata because he did not quite get what he was taught by Nagamine in okinawa. This is apparent because Nagamine disapproved of many things he was teaching in the US. Ueshiro's karate was strong, but I see it as somewhat different from that which Nagamine taught. I have heard that Ueshiro was actually 3rd or 4th Dan when he left okinawa and 7th Dan when he stepped foot on US soil. I personally would not dream of changing Nagamine's karate at 3rd or 4th Dan. But I digress. Rather than trying to punch hard you need to strike fast with proper technique paying especially close attention to the timing of the entire body. You also need to sink or sit down on the punch. If you want to rise start from a crouched position with knees bent and head up, chin tucked.

No, actually there are no thrust techniques officially a part of the syllabus. However, Matsubayashi's whipping strikes do both. They cause external damage as well as internal, however, the external signs tend to be somewhat delayed. You'll go home with no bruises and wake up with many.

Ed, good stuff with the kata and bag work. I am no where near an expert on any karate, perhaps an occasional watcher is about the nearest I get to it.

however I would just like to refute the idea that the way you generate power is similar to the sinewave movement in ITF TKD, as ssuggested by a couple here. It strikes me that how you explain the movement is exactly the opposite to a sinwave motion.

In your power generation, the knees drive up into the target. Conversely in TKD the initial upward movement in the second half of the sinewave movement becomes a relaxed "drop," that is a sinking or lowering into the technique. The sinewave motion (which is infact a cosine wave if we are talking 0rad - pi rad), is more similar to the boxers method of sitting down into punches. The hip movement however, is in some ways similar to a TKD punch.

Anyway, that was the only educated thing I could say about the power generation side of things. That bag work looked great and showed how much power it is possible to transfer with good mechanics. Nice one for manning up

Once you mentioned different power generations from Shorinryu, I figured you meant the rising punch. However, it was surprising to hear you mention the "whip" punch. Not only is it the staple of Isshinryu punching, but I have used the exact same analogy of the snapped towel with students. My fist in not totally tight until just before impact. The relaxed arm moves faster and uses less energy. How does this differ from Goju, Ed?

it did feel like over-rotation...so then naturally my arm has to compensate - hence the shoulder driven punch. I needed more practice...

Yes, you are turning the fist over at the point of impact, but the distance is much closer. Meaning I don't begin to turn the fist over at the end of the punch, but rather as my elbow passes my body. This is also the time I should make contact with my opponent and the the punch penetrates into the opponent. Anything closer in Matsubayashi is like a shovel hook and uses rising power.

No gripping the floor with the feet in Matsubayashi. Alignment will root you. Again, this style is natural with NO excess tension.

In terms of stepping it is the most natural thing you can do, but most can't do it to save their lives. The koshi moves first ALWAYS. The reason we even move the feet is to completion of the recentering process. Just think koshi moves first, feet step QUICKLY.

Yep. Hell, I need more practice as well. It is in the practice where you really start to understand. Ed, if you had come to me to learn Matsubayashi I would have approached it as my second teacher taught me. He didn't change my technique, but my thinking. I changed my technique on my own.

This loose fist business reminds me of an article I read a while ago:

http://fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=215

I remember that when forming this fist, my hand was naturally loose. I'd heard that the power generated was improved, although I've never tried this on a bag before.

I don't address the TKD 'sine wave theory' anymore. I read up on it and where it comes from, - it's hype with trivial at best theory used as a marketing pitch as just one more angle to sell TKD.

Goju punches (what I learned before was similar to western boxing methods).

Kimura shukokai punching is another animal altogether. hedkikr is the expert on that....he'd love to tell you about it.

Goju with a more Chinese influence is better suited for very close range...so we don't do many 'punches' - and there is no time to 'double hip' or whip, so the power generation is from core rotation and mechanical advantage.
I'd say the resident experts on those methods are eyrie, wuxing, wristtwister and butterfly.

they can explain it better, I'm still learning....plus I gotta go work-out...

Ahh, but who punches in close without immobilization through either movement or grappling. And there actually is no such thing as a double hip in Matsubayashi. There is one hip movement and a recentering. However, the recentering is for one punch on combinations rather than just a recenter you strike and the hips used on the second strike serves the same purpose.

Thank you for those points, sempai.

My sensei illustrated very clearly why the punch should start upside down. To see for yourself, stand in zen-kutsu dachi and, with an opponent, push against their hand in punch form while your arm is right-side up. You will see that you have no power at all. Now, try it upside-down. You will see that not only do you have much more power, but you can extend further as you turn your fist over , and thus, get more penetration of the target.

About the "gripping" of the floor, I meant it more as a visualization thing so that you can feel yourself rooted and on the floor BEFORE you punch and not quite as literally as it sounded.

I'm an expert on something? hmmm.

sure! we are ALL experts here in cyberspace! join us.

I was talking about your understanding of rotational core in Bagua that you demonstrated. it's great stuff and you can explain it well...but for another thread perhaps...

testing just arm strength?

something else to try: same as your experiment, except with a vertical fist.

even stronger isn't it?

another test: do a one handed pushup on your knuckles...which hand rotation is the strongest?

tada! another vertical Victory !

So why don't we all punch with a vertical fist then?

thats what Victor has probably been wondering all these years.

ok, seriously. here's the deal: depending on how close you are to your target, it determines how much twist you make at contact...if you want to believe it's going to do more damage with a twist after contact...I can't stop anyone from believing that. but people aren't made out of jello...and don't react like in a cartoon, they have bones.

anyway, my point is: how close do you have to be to an opponent, when it stops making sense to do a full twist?

also, there is nothing that I have seen (or have felt being on the receiving end) to prove a vertical punch is weaker or stronger than a full-twist. so if it doesn't matter...it becomes a stylist difference, not one of utility.

thats why I could care less about the twist, or if there even is one.

if people worry about twisting to add something, why wouldn't they do a twist on an uppercut?

I think it's more of a matter of self inflicted injury. Ever bent your wrist up hitting a bag with a full twist? It hurts...

Look, that's called a "Straw Man". I never said, thought, or imagined that people were made of jello.

But thanks for taking your time to explain it to me.

safety? thats all the more reason to hit vertical or half-twist.

another thought...a boxer starts with his fist already half twisted. in muai thai they start with open hand already in full twist and just jab out, closing on impact.

I wouldn't say those arts don't know how to hit either...some of the hardest hitters. twist doesn't seem to be an issue for them.

just a figure of speech. no insult intended. I was recalling other posters from threads I've read in the past, saying that a twist penitrates the body like a bullet/drill, the twist tears the skin, etc ...those arguments assume they are hitting a completely elastic body.

thats all I meant.

No sweat.

This has nothing to do with the topic but that school you were practicing is awesome. I would love to have a school that looks so good. Is that the Matsubayashi Ryu's school?

it is a nice looking place isn't it. the 2 instructors running it have interior remodeling experience and one has his own business - I believe they did the whole place themselves. still...it's the training that matters, not the scenery.

Aoishi, with whom do you study Matsubayashi? I only know of Ueshiro's guys in Mass.

I study with Jeffrey Brooks.

May I ask you whom you have studied under and a bit more about your dojo?

Interesting explaination, but you seem to be proving that you have more muscular power rather than punching power, and they are very different things. In Matsubayashi the training of classical karate is to develop specific skills. One of the main skills it develops is the ability to strike from what ever position your hands are in. This training begins from day one with some of our basic foundation exercises and begins in our Pinan up through Kusanku. The punching and chambering, expecially as it is in many of the beginning kata is skill development for later use, years later. Its like training an exaggerated hip movement. It is not a goal, but a training method. A better test of the punch would be to hold a kick shield against your chest and have your teacher strike it full power both ways and see which is stronger. Remember, Matsubayashi is about natural movements and NO forced muscle tightening.

Rooting before the punch, I don't know. Sinking and rising during strikes provides enough ground connection. When you are not striking you better be moving or your opponent will be wailing on you. In Matsubayashi visualization is more like energy coming from the ground through your feet up your spine our to your extremities. Naihanchi kata is good for developing this.

Thank you for the explanation, but I have a question:

You say that Matusbyashi has no muscle tension, but what about Naihanchi stance? Are you telling me that there is no muscular tension in Maihanchi stance?

There is no forced muscular tension, only natural. By natural I mean that the tension is produced by the structure and form of the technique or stance, not by forced muscular tightening.

Squeezing with the heels? I know in Naihanchi the heels are pushed out, but that is for alignment. I have never heard of squeezing with the heels for focus. I am not even sure how you squeeze with your heels during a strike. Please elaborate.

Ed,

"thats what Victor has probably been wondering all these years."

Nope, my training and practice uses all styles of striking and various fist forms.

Each style of striking has advantages and disadvantages, and the requirement if you don't understand them they will bite you.

Its the same with styles of body movement, and almost everything else for that manner.

Wisdom is, IMO, to not give anyone a chance to strike you, and in turn if you strike, do so that the opponent has no chance to counter.

OkinawaBBtv has posted a great many videos on some of the basic Kashiba Juku practices (they're a Matsubayshi sub-group) taken from a larger video prepared on their training. The examples being shown are the beginners exagerated movements, not the goal seniors are moving towards, using those energies in very, very small motion, from what I've been lead to understand.

Those clips were also an older explanation, and probably does not describe fully their current practices.

pleasantly,

Victor,
"thats what Victor has probably been wondering all these years."

that was tounge-in-cheek and was in response to the question: "why doesn't everyone use vertical punch?"

I agree with the notion of versatility. it's sometimes a trapping of TMA to be dogmatic as oppossed to exploring possiblities. often other answers lay outside the imagined boundries of a particular Art. There was probably a time when karate had no such boundries and 'cross-training' wasn't even thought of as such....just the norm.

I admire people willing to look wherever the study takes them - I think it's essential for advancement in learning what makes things tick. when someone says something like: "Qi Gong exercises to improve one's strikes in Karate?...insane...it's not 'traditional'" the only thing that comes to mind in response is: "uh huh." and realize they haven't tried it.

OK Ed,

your a Goju man who tried Shorin for a while, and whilst I understand nothing is 'fixed', and each dojo is different,

What in your expieirence are the main differences between the 2 systems. For clarity and simplicity lets just think SHORIN and SHOREI rather than specific sub systems.....(others can join in that way, more general).

The really obvious big differences, rather than the smaller ones (I understand you only did 1 year Matsubayshi of course).

I shall start us off,

shorin - generally natural straight through stepping.

shorei - genrally unnatural crescent stepping.

and

shorin - generally natural breathing

shorei - generally deep diaphram breathing

Would you agree in general with those statements?

come in if you guys want to know everything there is about shorin ryu and shorei ryu for that matter just look at shotokan. 17 of our kata's are from shorin ryu and 8 of our kata are shorei ryu.

mike

Hello,

My name is Paris Janos and I practice Kishaba Juku Shorin Ryu - an aquaintance directed me to this conversation about Matsubayashi and power generation. (Kishaba Juku was mentioned.)
Victor is correct about Kishaba Juku practice and the videos of Shinzato sensei on OkinawaBBT being a bit "out of date". When learning Kishaba Juku, new students are taught to make large motions, but the exaggerated movements of the beginner student are eventually whittled down into useable techniques. Also, correct body dynamics are used not only to create maximum power, but to move quickly, smoothly and efficiently in order to deliver the technique effectively and gain advantage over an opponent. Powerful techniques are only effective if they can be delivered to the desired target. Accomplishing this requires speed, relative speed and disguised or deceptive movement, or your opponent will simply move out of the way of your exceptionally powerful strike.
The name of this thread is also very interesting, because I feel that everyday is an experiment in Matsubayashi ryu for me!
Thank you for allowing me to insert my comments into your informative thread.

Paris Janos
Shorin Ryu Kishaba Juku

yes...I'd agree to that. but before you step me thru a series of questions know this: the Goju I'm working on now doesn't compare side-by-side with the Goju I did before...same kata - but thats about it. so when I'm asked to compare Shuri with Shorei...it's difficult to answer since I have 2 'definitions' of what Shorei/naha-te/Goju is.

for instance: when I first learned circular stepping, it was for 'rooting' and was more or less a stylistic difference attached to body mechanics for the sake of body mechanics - the practical application of it wasn't stressed or attached to its meaning. just: 'go like this...because it's stronger.'

now, circular stepping has a practical value, so it's not 'go like this because it's stronger' ...it's 'go like this because it makes sense - and here's why...'

lots of "ah-ha THATS why I was taught to do that....and thats why it's misinterpreted." moments in the past year.

stylistic differences are interesting, but just not so important anymore. so the kinds of questions I think you'll be asking will fall into stylistic boundries and not necessarily differences of utility. as far as utility, I believe "all karate is hard and soft" and "hard and soft are not 2 separate principals".

so then the differences become in tactics. and to be honest, I can't speak at that level for what Nagamine had in mind for tactics...I know he had them...I trust they were good ones...and I trust they were built into his system. I also get the sense that it's very rare that Matsubayashi is taught at that level.

Paris,

I like your description there of Shorin-ryu. Concise and with no wasted effort -like Shorin-ryu itself

Nice to meet you and welcome to FA.

-Jeremy

Medulanet, I have really limited time right now to explain, but I have class tonight and I will talk to my sensei about gripping the floor. He will have a logical way of explaining it.

-Jeff

Yep i see where your coming from Ed, nothing is definate in this game is it.

lighten up on it and just make some seriously general observations as you expieirenced them, what struck you as 'totally' different between the systems?

well..ok, I'll lighten up then

the amount of hand formations, angles of attack/entry and guard/uke seemed much less versatile than Goju. but maybe that comes later in study. Goju has much more open hand techniques and are learned early on, whereas MB didn't and seemed much more closed fist stuff. however, MB's classic kata is full of open hand so it's too bad they don't incorporate that earlier on.
The natural stance is too high...back leg needs to bend more than how they teach it and how it's depicted in Nagamine's book.
Whipping power doesn't cut it when close-in....but that answer doesn't come till naihanchi and I wasn't there long enough.

so it's really too short of a study to compare fairly, I think.

If breaking ribs, doubling your opponent over, KO's to the body, temple shots, breaking jaws, and KO shots to the chin is your definition of not cutting it then you are right, whipping power doesn't cut it. Maybe you don't think closed fist strikes are effective and maybe yours are not. In Matsubayashi you are taught to use them with great effectiveness. In addition to regular punches hammer fists are another main weapon of Matsubayashi. I don't know what your grappling experience is, but give me a hammer fist against a grappler any day, I'm just glad Nagamine and the other okinawans knew this as well. With the shuto uke and nukite strikes you have finger jabs, palm strikes, and combat slaps all in kata before naihanchi. And others should be learned in kihon before the classical kata. Natural stance too high? Actually its just right to rise into a shovel hook or okinawan uppercut. How about disrupting your opponent's balance and bring them up and then down hard on the concrete. I love getting under'em get a good underhook, jackin' it up, and then bring'em right down. Of course they'll eat a few in close uppercuts to the face with a knee or two to the thigh for tenderizer first if they resist too much.

learn all of that in the first year? sounds good. like I mentioned, I wasn't in it long enough and it wasn't instructed the way you describe.

but maybe I misunderstood Jim's question. there are only two elements I looked at with any kind of depth: basic stepping/stances and basic power generation with strikes.

I guess the differences really do come down down to strategy. maybe thats the area worthy to take a look at. whatever impressions I had of the differences between Goju and Shorin, won't be useful to discuss since those impressions are most likely biases. my honest impression was that Shorin comprimizes power for gained manuverability.

give and take...it's all Karate with the same goal: end conflict as soon as possible.

the difference in strategy toward that common goal (I think), comes down to:

Shorin: use angles of fast positioning against attack to gain advantage, while simultaneously landing a counter.

Goju: 'receive' attack in a way that puts the attacker at a disadvantage, while simultaneously landing a counter.

both valid strategies...thats probably why both styles have survived.

No fair enough Ed,

I see where you are at on this and I understnad the different interpretaitons of each art is a mine field.

As a huge generalisation I would see Shorin Ryu as a Long/Middle range focused art, and Shorei as a Middle/Short range focused art.

Each has all three ranges Long/Middle/Short of course but the focus is slightly different.

And whilst im on a roll of maddness I would generalise that for 'effective' use, and at the same skill level then a shorter strong person would find more utility with Shorei Ryu and a taller, slender person would be more effective with Shorin Ryu,

leading me to deduce that Shorin Ryu is likely more mobile, and Shorei Ryu likely more 'solid', ah rooted is the word.

now where am I going with all of this, yes the likely main influence of each school, from the Chinese animal perspective (technical and tactical), for me Shorin screams Crane (no pun intended) and Shorei roars Tiger, either art at a high level becomes the dragon............as both arts contain both crane and tiger.

So yes it's all about emphasis I guess, it's 4am here im off to bed.

whoa, Jim...you are on your own when medulanet rips into you. lol I have to disagree with just about everything in your last post.

Hmmm. Matsubayashi Ryu is about in close fighting from your opponent's blind side. It does have long range techniques but those are either for closing the distance, clearing room if fighting multiple opponents, or designed to freeze an opponent for a split second to gain an advantage. Shorin has aspects of crane in its kata, but many other as well such as the dragon as was mentioned, phoenix, and I'm sure a lot of others. Crane is good, but not the best and there is a lot more to karate than crane. I heard an okinawan karate master say that crane(hakutsuru) is for health and okinawan kata is for killing.

The natural stance in Matsubayashi is misunderstood by both students of the art and by other karate practioners alike. Neither leg should ever be locked straight on any stance, as this limits our mobility and power generation and leaves that leg vulnerable to being broken. We should train ourselves so that we can use our karate in a wide variety of positions and stances - hence the variety found in the various kata.
One of my bojutsu teachers is also an 8th dan in Goju ryu, and he was trained by Chojun Miyagi. Our training usually involved comparisons of bojutsu with karate techniques in order to fully understand both arts. It was his contention that Shorin and Goju were the same, they were just put together differently technique-wise. (Like the same picture cut into different puzzle pieces.) His karate was fast, fluid and relaxed due to the efficient use of body dynamics that transcend style.
So I think it is counter-productive to compare the two styles against each other when we should be studying how to use our bodies intelligently and efficiently regardless of "style" or system. An experiment in Matsubayashi is also an experiment in Goju.

Thanks,

Paris

I did state huge generalisations and also 'madness' as my defence............

It is just me blasting off,

At higher levels of use I absolutly agree, good karate is very similair - an ability to 'use' base priciples and tactics, function.

However the 2 systems are most definatly NOT the same (they have in the most an entirley different kata set and training ethos),

I agree that if you look well enough then elements of each system appear in the other, but im talking about 'generalisations' here emphasis, and whilst most disagree I think this has value if done positivly.

Think of it like this, modern sport karate and classical Okinawan karate are all karate - but they are not the same, or are they?

I relaise that to put things into catagorys is difficult and ultimatly not fixed but it also helps us understand the real 'core' emphasis of our own system, and also appriciate the messages from the other system.

The teacher I was referring to is Kishaba Chogi. He would demonstrate a technique in Goju and then show the corresponding Shorin technique - all in order to understand the underlying principles of that particular technique in a "language" I could understand. Surely the kata of Shorin and Goju are structured differently, but very similar executions exist in both arts as I have seen them practiced in Okinawa.
My point is that there are some very important principles of body dynamics that transcend stylistic differences no matter which stance or hand formation is being employed, and that these essential elements are highly under-utilized by most practioners of both arts. They need to be studied and implemented in order for students to progress fully no matter which art they practice.

Paris

I agree with your thinking. what is your opinion of distinguishing between Shorei/Shorin by looking at their view of general tactics as oppossed to trying to find contrast between technique?

I have trained in Shorinkan and Matsumura Orthodox for many years now. I also trained in Matsubayashi Ryu for some time.Even amongst these three very closely related subsystems, power is generated in varied ways.

Shorinkan uses a lot of koshi/gammaku. It also utilizes elements of rising and falling power. Speed and power in conjunction are used a lot in Shorinkan. The use of crescent stepping in kihon and kata is meant to train this. Shorinkan guys tend to use more muscle than sinew power.

Matsubayashi uses very little rising and falling power, at least at the dojo I studied in. They tended to focus on using the hips more. They use straight stepping, unlike Kobayashi and Matsumura Seito. Mr. Morris showed a video from Okinawa which showed a sensei practicing his stepping punches. If you notice he recenters and uses crescent stepping when performing it in the correct manner. Is he a Matsubayashi Ryu stylist? If so the he practices his kihon stepping different from the way a Matsubayashi guy is initially taught. I also noticed that he perferred the use of a low chamber vs. the signature high chamber of Matsubayashi. Chambering is also an important aspect of learning to maximize your body and physics when delivering a closed fist strike, but that's a discussion for another time.

Matsumura Orthodox uses a lot less hip than Shorinkan pre-yudansha- not the way I learned it but that is what many dojo teach. It does use a lot of it after Shodan at which time one should have gleaned the salient training points of Seisan which teaches proper use of koshi, as well as rising and falling power. Many of Kise's students from the mid 70s-early 80's will tell you that a lot of their punching techs were arm punches with little use of the hip. They even abandoned the crescent stepping. Others who trained with Kuda will tell you that hip was emphasized. Could it be that Kise still had a lot of Shorinji Ryu in him (Kyan derived karate)? Could it be that Kuda still had a lot Okinawan Kenpo in him (Nakamura derived)?

Regardless, from my experience someone well-versed in a solid Okinawan karate system, who is also tutored by a very diverse and knowledgeable sensei will understand the principles of rising and falling as well as the use of the Earth's rotational force from the ground up- tranferred from the feet to the hip to the arm(s). Being relaxed or having as little anatgonistic muscle action as possible is also salient. That is what is meant by whipping power whether from punches or kicks.

Btw Mr. Morris your punch in that vid had good speed, but you did push your punch, instead of going through the target and retracting it to your guard as fast (or faster) than you punched through the bag. It takes many years of training kata/kihon to understand how to actually use your punches in a very effective way. That's where karate differs from a sport like boxing. Once the ideas are tailor-made for the practitioner the benefits of karate training are myriad, much beyond the superficiality of throwing a proper boxing punch or having great ring acumen.

Oh and keep your guard hand up. Good thread.

---Bryan the lowly Nidan

Hello Bryan,
Thanks for Sharing.

interesting post Bryan, and thanks for the pointers. I believe the bag strikes looked a little like pushing, because I held the arm out (intentionally) and since the bag had quite a bit of swing due to the length of it's chain. guard hand, chin tucked, etc ...I wasn't concerned with that during the exercise....just simple impact training with the punch from fukyugata. but I do have a tendancy to 'arm punch' from the shoulder.

separate sub-topic: I'm surprized nobody picked up on what JohnL noticed last year, when I showed this vid privately....which I believe he was quite right. In fukyugata san, I had a 'top heavy' reliance of power generation instead of it coming from the lower body more. This input from John led me to look at this pretty closely. Turns out, all I needed to change was the amount of sinking of my hara into the technique...and lead with it more when transitioning to another. a beginner would not have got that till years later...and I wondered, 'why is that?'...

one of the problems I found with shorin basic kata (including and particularly pinan kata), is that I didn't know what I was doing...literally. there wasn't any visualization because I wasn't imagining application. but the pitfall in learning that way is that the student is thinking just body mechanics, but doesn't know the GOAL of those mechanics....

so, I was told that shorin is 'lighter' and with less rooting than goju...and thats what I tried to do - hence the adjustment to stress upper body vs lower body -I thought in order to be 'lighter' then the lower body needs to be looser....but without knowing the application, how the heck is someone going to do the correct mechanics? the answer: they mimic their instructor (who hopefully knows what the mechanics are used for in application).

all well and good, BUT...

too often what I've seen and heard in TMA is the student mimics their instructor...but the instructor doesn't really know WHY those mechanics are the way they are. It becomes a study of body mechanics for the sake of body mechanics...the goal becomes the look and feel of the 'style' vs. the utility.

Is Karate mearly the study of a style of movement? It sure seems like it in the modern big-dojo ...I think it's suppossed to be a study towards the goal of a fighting method with particular tactics.

you've heard people say, "we've all got the same 2 arms and 2 legs". I'd add: yes, and we've also got the same potential in our brains too. just studying movement for the sake of stylistic movement is one-dimentional. if trophies are the goal, then that seems to be enough for people. let the masses do what they do best: trivialize. If we are serious students, we'll need to use our brain and work it out just like the rest of our body.

That said, the direction I'll go in the next post is taking a look at what I saw as the specific differences between a simple Matsubayashi kata and the Goju version of it. Fukygata Ni. not just the mechanical differences - but, with everyone's help, why we think those differences are present. I'll try to make and post supporting video this weekend for the conversation.

Matsubayashi's Fukyugata ni and Goju's Gekisai ichi were composed as one kata in joint corroberation of our two line's founders: Nagamine and Miyagi. After the corroberation in 1940, the kata split into two separate versions. I think it's a perfect place to start if people are into really looking at this.

so to recap the goal: compare Fukyugata ni and Gekisai ichi and theorize upon the REASON for the differences.

more to follow this weekend...

Ed,

That sounds like a really interesting comparison and with video it should make for a grat thread.

>separate sub-topic: I'm surprized nobody picked up on what JohnL noticed last year, when I showed this vid privately....which I believe he was quite right. In fukyugata san, I had a 'top heavy' reliance of power generation instead of it coming from the lower body more.

I don't know if it is the same thing, but I did mention that I saw less "loose koshi" than I see in some of the better people in my (Matsubayashi) dojo. In other words, power production looked like it was upper body.

I think I'll stop there before I again!

maybe a bit off topic, but there has been talk of crescent vs. straight stepping.
im not a karate practitioner, so bare with me here. this is fascinating.
the steps in kata, are they meant to show the way that particular "style" moves? or could it be more application oriented, or interperated.
what i mean is, a sense once told me when i was working on one steps or set self defense techniques, any time you are stepping...other things can be happening. ie...when you step in you can kick to the shin real quick, which may not be noticed. and any kick can be a knee strike...etc etc. you know where im going with this.
just an idea i had while reading this thread, for example the crescent step, could be, against a left stepping punch, i might step in with my left, the first "half" of the step could aid in dodging the punch, and the second half could simply off balance the attacker. it could also be stepping around the opponents leg and behind him...just some ideas. the straight stepping could also be a dodge/change of angle. or a more direct entry if you will. infact the sensei i referred to bases all of his teachings on entering, its all in how you enter into it. would it not be better to practice both methods, for different reasons? could you not train outside the box, and use crescent footwork in your kata training, even though its not technically part of your style?

I think I know what you mean...they are related, but not exacly the same thing. keep in mind too, koshi can be overexaggurated to it's detriment. in other words, too much koshi and you've got wasted movement. but as Victor and Paris (kichigai - good name btw ) mentioned, overexagurration is also a training device.

there comes a point in everyone's training when there is no need to overexaggurate anymore.

you are on the right track. Goju absolutely has a tactical reason for cresent stepping. The answer to that is best shown in Judo.

watch a match sometime and look for the cresent step and why the use it.

hi ed,
thats exactly what i was thinking, coming from a kempo jujutsu standpoint.
osoto gari. is a prime example, that, and kazushi were the two things that jumped out at me. i used to do that to my friends all the time, side step then step (not separately) right back into them and knock them back.
in kempo/kenpo circles, they have some unique takedowns which use this principle. i once heard it called occupying space, you basically replace your opponents center with yours, of course from a weak angle, preferably, or when he is still committed to his forward momentum for example. i have some video of professor kimo ferreira demonstrating some techniques, and i also saw vic leroux do similar techniques, basically moving into a front stance backwards is a great takedown. almost like a back kick thrown at the ground.
thats at least three arts that use similar things, only teach them differently. but i think they're all more similar than we want to think.
this is jujutsu, but its karate, kung fu, and kempo too..they just teach it differently, or use it for a different purpose.

As I do not study either of the two arts that we are comparing I do know full hand about what you are talking about. I our kata we step in a crescent step kind of like you would step around a barrel. The main reason I can think of using this step is it helps keep you shoulders level and dose not give off the impression of moving forward. By cutting down the up and down movement of the shoulders. It is kind of creepy to watch our instructor walk at us and not see him and coming forward.

As my instructor was a brown belt in judo before he started his Karate training in Japan he may have gotten this from judo as well

Sounds like a good plan Ed, I shall try and remember and run through the matsubayashi kata to remind me of it.

A good place to start,

Just got to see the clips. Dang Ed! what that bag ever do to you!?

In your concentrated attempt to keep the arms 'loose' and let your legs, hips and core do the work (a shared principle with western boxing), i noticed that your wrist locked into alignment at the very last moment.

Q1. Having practiced this way for some time, did you come to feel that the extra point of 'whip' in the wrist added significant power to the strike, or did the safer option of maintaining punch alignment at the wrist, whilst still working on the basic concept of the power generation net good results for you also?

Q2. having practiced this for some time, how did it translate into use against a moving partner? ie, if they came into close range did you incur any injuries through impact during last moment transition into wrist alignment?

thanks Cord. I think just the general sense of being loose until impact is style independant.

your second question...my personal feeling is whip action and hip gymnastics is for longer range. for close-range, core rotation (hips moving with arms) is much faster and gives for better mechanical advantage when both arms are simultaneously active with a resisting opponent...maybe slightly less power - not sure, but it's worth the speed and tactical gain. some disagree, but I assume they've studied matsubayashi longer.

one really cool thing with MB's whip strike, is how they use it to 'slip the punch'....maybe someone can explain it.

didn't make the vids yet. In the meantime, have a look at these...the contrast is basically what we have talked about -

keep in mind, these are training kata. full of stylistic movements in order to concentrate on disciplining the particular body mechanics for that style.

Goju - Gekisai Dai Ichi
http://www.spokanekarate.com/kata

Matsubayashi - Fukyugata Ni
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q79Yo7mSyZo

Differences:
* hourglass vs natural stance/stepping. straight stepping must be swifter, but believe me, cresent stepping has alot more utility.

* Matsubayashi whips the hips whereas Goju tends to rotate it's core. (but Goju does use like whipping usually during turning throws as in Aikido - similarly, Shorin systems do seem to have core rotation as well, assuming when the application calls for it).

* Goju tends to plant a split second before a strike. MB seems to stop it's forward momentum with the front foot right at the end of a strike.
note: when hitting a bag, I notice the Goju method stayed the same - yet in the MB method, in order to conteract the recoil, I had to tighten slightly with the rear leg.

in other words, the mechanics changed when hitting something other than air using the MB natural stance. whereas the Goju mechanics didn't change. thought that was an interesting find.

I have to conclude that just by looking at these most basic methods in either style and trying to extract tactics, I come up with the following:
1. Range optimization. Shorin seems optimized for 1 arm length away. Goju seems optimized for closer. (that doesn't mean ineffective in the other range...it just means optimized for a particular range - and at this particular stage of learning: beginner).

2. The speed/stability tradeoff...can't get something for nothing. If you are a bit further away, you have a need for more agility and speed...particularly lower body.

3. I noted the differences in the stress of training drills as well. Goju tends to do more strength building exercises (heavier on the hojo undo-weight training)...whereas Shorin seemed to focus on speed and stepping drills more than mass building.

No doubt that as a student progresses in either style, the range proficiency evens out, and in fact, some Shorin styles begin with naihanchi...which definitely contains close fighting principles. so thats interesting because then it seems it just becomes a preference or rather, a question for the instructor..."what range do you want students to start in?". If my theory holds, then it would also make sense for the people starting with naihanchi to be heavier with the weight training, initially.

If you tend to have new students with grappling experience - formally or informally as part of kid culture perhaps, then close-in would be the best place to start. If you tend to get boxers or fist-fighters as new students, then starting at that range would make sense....or so I'm thinking.

reportedly, Okinawans grew up with wrestling as part of it's schoolyard culture...whereas in the west, boxing/fist fighting is the cultures roughhouse of choice. It may be a culture decision to decide what range to start in. I don't know, I'm just suppossing.

keep in mind a couple things (eg:disclaimer), the particular MB club I was with didn't do very much impact training - I did that on my own. so what I found might not hold true for ALL matsubayashi. plus, as I mentioned and can't stress enough, I was only studying MB for a single year.

Thats pretty much all I have on the subject...I'm interested in hearing your comments/arguments/disagreements etc.

for lazy people that skip to the end, a summary : What I found as the only main beginner's difference between Goju and Matsubayashi were: range optimization.

Ed, I will say this one last time. Matsubayashi IS for inclose fighting. I mean I should know what you had for lunch fighting! Secondly, in Matsubayashi if you want to get strong you lift weights. Third, there is no change in the techniques to strike something, if you know what you are doing. You must do impact training from day one to develop your atemi waza. The problem is people who don't understand Matsubayashi try to create the "snap" or whipping power artificially, meaning on the air. This is good for movie sound effects, but not real fighting. The snap from the whipping power comes from correct technique and power generation which is effective when actually hitting something. Actually this reminds me of a story about Chotoku Omine who was sent by Nagamine to replace Ueshiro in the US. Some old school guys and him were training back in the late sevenites/early sixties and a goju guy was there. He was performing Sanchin and Omine asked him why he performed the kata the way he did. The Goju guy said so he would not get hurt and could receive a technique when someone hit him. Omine said okay you do that and I'll hit you. Well the Goju guy had seen the way Omine trained and said no. Shorin lacking power, only if you ain't doin it right.

maybe you misunderstood or just scanned too fast. no art can teach it all in one year...right? do we agree on that? everyone has to start somewhere.

MB STARTS with stepping that is quick and agile. Goju STARTS stepping with notions of rooting and circular.

(did you read the word: STARTS? that means in the one year I was there, those were the differences I noticed)

doesn't mean thats all there is...of course both have answers for close and arm length range.

I think I mentioned on every post that I was only there a year.

did I mention I was there for 1 year? lol

also, you missed the point of the entire exercise. maybe you are reading it as a threat to your system...as if I'm saying goju is superior. I'm not. nor do I care of antedotal stories that X Goju guy vs. Y Shorin guy.

I was trying to be a little more sophisticated than that, by saying MAYBE:
1. the 2 systems have the most difference in philosophy when training STARTS (kyu ranks). as in non-advanced training.
2. MAYBE those differences are according to priority of range.

thats it. nothing more profound or intimidating than that.

Well, Ed it depends on who you are teaching. I think I said earlier that I would have trained you differently from your Matsubayashi teachers did. Since you were already a yudansha in goju karate you would be on my excelerated program. You would start with the first two kata to learn basics. Now, what you would learn here would be the same as newbies. You would learn to punch and kick. You would learn to defend against striking attacks at all three levels, high, medium, and low. You would learn to counter attack off of those defenses. You would learn hard blocking and parries. You would learn basic unbalaning and takedowns. You would learn elbow destructions with simultaneous parrying with the guard hand. You would learn how to close the distance and penetrate through covering and striking your way in. These are all skills learned in the first two kata which cover the first three months. Now this is not a kinderkarate program or one with people who have zero coordination and don't know their left from their right. This is for people who came to learn the real deal. Now if I was teaching someone who was already a legit yudansha in karate I would skip pinan kata and naihanchi (for now) and go to ananku and wankan. I personally think this is the reason Ueshiro made his kata because his first students were fighters and already had both power and good footwork (which is what is learned in pinan kata and naihanchi the first time around.) Ananku teaches using body weight to greatly increase striking power and wankan teaches fighting combinations combined with inclose clinching techniques/striking techniques. This would cover the first 9 months. Then we would go back to the pinan kata to teach some principles of kusanku which are contained in pinan kata and the 45 stepping to get inside at the right angle. We would probably work Pinan shodan for the last three months of the first year. Now a beginner would work the first 5 pinan in that first year to develop coordination as well as the 45 stepping. The beginner should be able to step in at 45 and counter attack and take their opponent down. However, would not be skilled enough for a lot of the clinching, hand fighting, and inclose grappling that is involved in the first year. However, they are taught to deflect and control incoming techniques to get them out of the way for and inclose strike and takedown. However, on a more skilled opponent you need to learn the underhooks, over hooks, body locks, joint locks, chokes, and head tie ups used in close. I personally don't like teaching people those things until they have passable striking skills combined with good footwork to control their distance and enter without getting knocked out.

Ed,

I think you have hit the nail on the head (im sure we have discsssed this before).

The 2 arts 'start' from a differnt perspective and ultimatly lead to the same place (functional non 'styalistic' karate).

I guess different roads up the same mountain is wholey accurate and reasonable to assume.

Of course when one trys to 'qualify' those different technical places the whole subject of individuals expierience, different dojos training methods and reasons for training come into play - nothing is 'totally' right, there is always the exception.

One mans Matsubayashi is definatly different to anothers, the same for Goju.

my thought process is that yep this is good and fine, but lets step back from the 'defensive position' (ie it is not a mine is bette rthna yours conversation) and open our minds a little, by seeing the different approaches we strengthen our core system messages and begin to understand another way of moving/doing things..........

Forget modern 'systems' and go back to when there were only 2 methods (IMO), shorin and shorei - LOL, and IMO Crane and Tiger...........with Dragon coming over time.

sounds good. so you'd teach punching range before grappling range in the first year....which is reasonable. and if someone had previous grappling, it may make sense to start with naihanchi for them...ie: principals of rooting and core rotation.

Ed,

May I ask a noobie question about Goju? I mean this exactly as I stated and mean to imply nothing by the asking, but how on earth is power generated? In MB, koshi is everything and without it, there is no power generation other than the muscular kind (i.e "pushing" the punch).
To me (no experience other than MB) it seemed "stiff". Perhaps you could explain so I can understand because "rotating the core" didn't really help me "get it".

Thanks.

basic kata by design are too stiff, IMO.

in terms of punching, Goju is perhaps closer to boxing with less or no lift in the heel - but the weight is still on the balls of the feet. the only difference to natural stance is turn the front foot in a bit and bend the legs slightly.

watch these clips: all core rotation..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pW_cDgrFaw

lol...don't give me a hard time for pointing to that-just to contrast with hip torquing/whipping.

Oh, I get it now! That made it REAL clear!

BTW, what about the "Karate Dog"? Which style would you say it does?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O67gIgmKWWE

lol...obviously 'dog boxing kung fu'.

If you didn't see it in the vid, I don't know...maybe it's easier to think in terms of the difference of swinging a bat vs cracking a whip.

I watched again. I think I get it. Thanks.

DoggieStyle

Thanks for that Medulanet. I look forward to learning more of those other methods.

By the way, I apologize if I don't seem properly humble. I think it's more a function of "texting" flattening out my personality...

Right. Its kind of like in GJJ they teach their principles of groundfighting/grappling before they do the street/nhb stuff. They want to ensure their students have a proper foundation in the principles of their groundfighting before they expand upon it with the striking. In Matsubayashi the okinawans wanted their students to have a proper foundation in the principles of striking and controling distance before they teach grappling okinawan style.