makawari or heavy bag.....or both?

Why not both? If I had to choose one, it would be the bag. You can practice not only strikes but also blocks and kicks on it.

What the F**K kind of lifestyle do you people have!!!

This is not the 1600's when all you had to do with your hands was farm and crush skulls!!

In almost 25 years of Martial arts training ( traditional martial arts training ), I have never had the need to kill a bull with my hands or punch through a tree or concrete wall, or strike through an opponents chest and pluck out his heart!

I have used my art(s) countless times all over the world in defense of myself and others. I also have the need to make sure that my soft, well manicured hands serve me until retirement age.

You do not need calloused, knotted ,gnarled, arthritic hands to prove that you are a good fighter.

Get a clue.

Page

PS in response to the question: Some light Makiwara is important, but there are other ways to develop kime. The heavy bag is very important, for all the reasons that you all already know.

cmon guys, enough flaming here.

from talking with a few sensei they tell me that light mak training is fine for developing proper body dynamics and posture, and the conditioning that a the light trining will provide should be more then enough for the modern day karateka.

they say the heavy bag is usefull for kicking techniques a little more then hand techniques because the give thats in the bag is in a way detrimental to someone who's still learning the in's and out's of kime.

but pound for pound I hear that theres not alot of difference

excellent

Hi

Interesting

My hands are conditioned so are my feet,
But against a tree?

Tree wins.

So what kind of trees dont you care for that you have to
train with?

Which shaolin monks?

tradidtional shotokan karate, i know some of you guys think thats an oxymoron, lol.

Huh???

I trained in trad shotokan,untill the association i belonged to got to sports oreintated.What is a oxymoron,, lol??

http://www.shuriway.co.uk/enoeda.html

This guy trained in shotokan, I think how shotokan should be but that is only my opinion.

Yep i would agree

ANDY,
I find that Cypress or Pine trees work best. The reason being that the skin of a cypress tree and the bark of a pine tree tend to have some give. Palm trees also work great.
The shaolin monks ( SOUTHERN TEMPLE) use pine trees as well. The original temple was called "shaolin" because of it's location- in a PINE forest. Shorin ryu - means Shaolin way. Shaolin way can mean forest way. Here are some other great examples.
Shobayashi Shorin Ryu - small forst way
Kobayashi Shorin Ryu- young forest way
Matsubayashi shorin ryu - PINE FOREST WAY ( founded by shoshin nagamine in 1940 ) .. I don't consider 1940's to be an era of the "the karate masters of old" but they did in fact practice on trees.
I have never broken any bones in any of my practice on trees. A few of the higher ranks in the style I practice can gain absolutely nothing from a heavy bag now. The reason being that everytime they hit one, it breaks!
You claim your hands and feet are "conditioned". What exactly are they "conditioned" to do?

I am curious, what breaks on the heavy bag? the chain, stand, bag itself. Can you elaborate on that?

Usually the bag itself will tear open, sometimes it busts at the seams. It depends on the bag. On occasion a chain link has been snapped, but that's aside from the bag itself breaking.

Hello

Please check this site

http://www.jundokan.jp/english/album.htm

Ok, so is that on the first hit? The reason I ask is because I am a skeptic by nature and yet not denying your claim, I find it hard to believe it happened with the first blow or even at all. I have has a 100lb canvas bag, for about 15 years. It has been through weather, water damage and a good pounding. It does not even have a tear. Opps, I do, but that is when I stabbed it once as a youth. I don't think it is the blows themselves but probably the rock, moving and shaking the bag endures while hanging. But like I said, my canvas bag has been through nature, time, and physical abuse and still keep on a ticking. Maybe your seniors should invest in leather or something of higher quality. IMO.

Hi

Perhaps the monks didnt hit the trees to hard I dont know but either way,

Perhaps your bags are meant to rip
for ego building.

If you can show me a vidio of you hitting any tree full power and still having your hand intact then I shall consider jumping on a plane and joining your training methods.

Note I said full power. As in very hard.


I will even plant my own tree on arrival cos by the time I reach(should I ever) your extremely high standards it will have grown big enough.

Meanwhile I shall practice on the growing twigs.

I shall dispose of any tools I have for chopping trees and become a lumber jack using only my bear hands( yep the incorrect spelling is intended)


Better still how about also showing the development of your hands or you seniors hands again on a vidio.

If you can again show on vidio a bag being bust then let us all see. I mean people do show breaking on you tube.

Regards my punch /hand devlopement.


Maa wahhhhh

Uhhhmmmmm.

What are they meant to do?

My feet are good for walking/running on
My hands are good for most things.
What are they conditioned to do?
yeah!!!!

Sensei!!!!!!!

ous!!



You might be able to punch a tree very lightly but i cant see the point of that.So do you have any insite in to the original tekki?
and bunkia?

Usually the bag itself will tear open, sometimes it busts at the seams. It depends on the bag. On occasion a chain link has been snapped, but that's aside from the bag itself breaking.

Well then poss the bag has been outside that long that the chain has rusted and snapped,and the material is also no use.

Theres your answer.

They were doing Okinawa Goju Ryu Jundokan Miyazato-Ha. It is interesting you would think that

MIKE C,
thank you for sharing that video and shedding some light on the subject.
In regards to all the other stuff,
The bags were all new, and usually leather or canvas. My hands are fine and my instructors hands are all fine as well.
I can strike a tree with full force and not break anything.
This is also not limited to strictly the fists. this also includes forearms,elbows, forehead, knees, shins/insteps/ and the ball,blade,heel and arch of the feet.
On a final note, if I were to video tape an actual tree training session, or even one of our higher ups destroying a bag, what would keep you from then claiming the videos were fakes? I won't waste the time or money.

Andy44
In regards to your question of bunkai-
The application of tree training is quite simple. There was a time when the shaolin were under persecution from the emperor, like wise with the okinawans who were being controlled by the Japanese. They were not allowed to have any weaponry, as it would mean they could fight back(immediately). So they had to transform their bodies into weapons. Weapons strong enough to break ARMOR and kill opponents with attacks such as spearhands,knifehands, hammer fists, etc.
That my friend would be the BUNKAI you seek.

Mr Hiddenfist.

Just looked at the vidio posted by Mike.


It would seem that Your and my perception of punching/strikes are some what different.

I see the instructor on the vidio using a tree to condition his limbs. Note I said condition. He is not striking full power on the tree. He is using it to condition his limbs.
Nothing wrong with that. All in all the guy looks like he is a good practicing martial artist.
Good.

That is not the same as using a full force strike against a makai wari set in the ground or a heavy bag. To be able to hit harder then a person must hit as hard as they can and try to improve on it. With the correct technique.

Full force strikes can not be used against stationary objects such as trees.If you think you are doing it then you might poss not be hitting hard enough.

Consider the joints consider the wear and tear on the joints. Conside the correct joint alinement while striking. Mis aline a FULL force strike against som thing like a tree means damaged/broken part's of a human body. Doesnt matter how hard you think som eone is.

.




I should imagine the guy on the vidio poss would use maki wari and bag work looking at his technique.

I dont know the guy but i am guessing.

Regards your bunkia im not sure at what stage you are of training but if it is mis guided enthusiasm then fine.

Ok mis understanding.

j

Goju Ryu Jundokan Miyazato-Ha

Ok could we talk about what these guys are doing on the vidio you posted?
Not the tree part I can see what he is doing with that.
Is that your style?

Why the split?


Ok

So Mike would you like to explain this please?
The first part of what the Instructer was doing would have been end of confrontation in that the opponent would have had his elbow broken plus whatever came after.

That is one of my favourite techniques.
and I use a maki wari to condition for it.


Do you want to discuss this?

Thanks

I belive you i do the tree thing the only thing thats stoping me now is not wanting to get arthiritis so i have some quistions how old are you? do you have any tips on how to avoid arthiritis in old age? and does hitting a tree improve your punching power or just condition you? thanks

sensei is it true you dont have Arthiritis because i was very into turning my hands and feet into rocks i noticed huge diferences in my hands and shins from practicing on trees but i stoped because every one said i would get arthiritis..do you have a secret you would tell me on how you avoided it, thanks

Yes,
the secret lies in your approach to this type of training. There is a science to it. Much more than anyone here can seem to grasp since I am held in such disregard for my two cents.
There is actually a long process that builds up to tree and rock training. One of the best things to do is get small canvas bags filled with beans and strike those with all different types of hand techniques. Do this for several months until your strikes are strong enough to crush the beans into powder easily, and you will also start to notice light callousing on the skin. You may combine this with makiwara and heavy bag training.
You also want to make sure you are doing the proper exercises for your joints. You need to build up the strength in your wrist, elbow,shoulder, hip, and knee stabilizers so you can avoid injury and sustain power.
The next step after that is typically a bag filled with gravel or small river rock, but I actually have found makiwara training to be better at first in this stage. Use the makiwara regularly. When you can hit it full force without any pain or knock back then take the padding off of it. Start light with this. Hit the makiwara reglarly but slowly build your power, also start striking a canvas bag filled with rocks. Make sure you are using dit da jow or any other strong anti bruising liniment regularly, it is a must in this type of training.
Finally after about a year to a year and a half you will be ready for tree training. When striking the tree start off soft. BY NO MEANS AM I SAYING PULL your strike. I am saying start off by throwing your technique soft and then slowly over time hit the tree harder and harder and so on. Always allow time in between sessions for the hands and feet to heal. Eventually when they are conditioned from this they will no longer bruise easily from this type of training.
A good way to tell you are hitting the tree and moving it is to go out first thing in the morning and strike it. The dew will fall out of the tree when you hit it. Pine trees and cypress trees are the best for this type of training. Ther reason is Pine and cypress are a soft wood. Same goes for palm trees. If you are serious about this training I can give you a basic conditioning program, just let me know and I will email you.
The roots for this type of training comes from the shaolin iron palm practices.
Any cases of arthritis coming from this type of training is due to improper preparation, training, and technique.

Peter,
also, in regards to your other questions- my father started me in this type of training when I was 4 years old. Only our makiwara were never padded. I have been doing this now for 20 years. My father is in his 50's and his hands are strong as can be, and he has no arthritis. My current instructors are all in the ages of 40's, 50's, and 60's and they have done this type of training as well, and they also have no arhtritis. The best advice I can give about this type of training is don't rush it. It takes time and preparation.
In regards to your question about conditioning and strength. This type of training conditions as well as builds power in your attacks.

Sensei -

Please do not multiple post.

You started using the maki wari when you were 4 years old?

and you have knowledge of the channons?

Interesting.

hi thanks for your advice and yes i would be very interested in the program i use an email called [Email]alexynew@hotmail.com..[/Email] thanks alot, also i hit a punching bag filled with compacted sand its about 85 kg and is as hard as a tree or a wall but probly has more give in it and i dont have any pine trees would gum trees be all right ,if you know of them and finaly what sort of beans did you mean thanks again for your help

Hi mike

Would be good to discuss the vidio at some point if you have time?

is it kata/drill based or is it free sparring?

The moves he makes are getting in to positon for and applying arm bars/strikes, groin shots ,double punches, elbows ,forearm strikes, head butts/knees using the opponnents momentum .

Its my sort of thing if working in close except his flows. NICE


all the time it would seem using sanchin stance and using the stance to move the opponent

Good stuff

Yes to both Andy, that is what I said.

Peter,
I shall email you this information first thing tomorrow. In regards to your question about beans, MUNG beans work best, however as they can be quite difficult to get a hold of in some places, any old type of dried beans will do.
also, good job on hitting the bag filled with compacted sand. I used to use a leather bag probably filled with about the same amount of sand as you have described, and yes it is about as hard as hitting a tree. oosh.
almost forgot, yes gum trees would be fine.

pretty good article on pros/cons of different striking surfaces (although heavily biased to impact pads, but then again, I am too )
http://www.karatetips.com/articles/impacttraining.asp

Impact pads are ok. But maki wari is better.

Andy

I dunno about better. They each offer different pro and cons. I think focus mitts offer a better hand eye coordination than maki. IMO.

Hi

Yes they do, you are right
so does a small swinging hard maize ball
Focus mits i also use
but to condition my hands and keep them conditioned i use a maki wari.

Both.

Hi Brian

Im going to be very carefull what I see here as I am on a massive learning curve.


You asked ;
How do you know when your hands are conditioned?
Why would you want them that way? I just don't get it.

Answer?

When I can strike(or a lot of consecutive strikes) some thing such as a maki wari with full power that would normaly have bust my hands. That is when I knew they were conditioned along with my shins/forearms/ palm heel/ feet

I wont condition the outer part of my hand (shuto)
For some reason this doesn’t feel right to me

But I have not gone to the far extremes that I have seen. I still need my hands for physical labour.



Ok
If you read some of the threads on here I forget where they are but either way they refer to

“they sprained their wrists while sparring“,

“they had a street fight and either their opponents hand or even their own hands were made useless by the fact their(normaly their outer knuckles) knuckles were knocked out of place.

I have had this happen to me when I was attacked once, and at the time I was boxing and doing karate.But no hand conditioning.

It is painful and a person loses the use of that hand. This can be bad in a street fight particular if a persons best shot is with that hand.

After that I started hand/forearm/ and other body parts conditioning.
That was 20 years ago.
It isn’t just the hand that gets conditioned it is the ability to strike hard and fast with the correct joint alignment and striking with the correct part of the hand.


One of the best karate ka I saw when I was young was

http://www.shuriway.co.uk/enoeda.html

At the time, after I broke my knuckles I didn’t know much about hand conditioning so I went and looked for the training methods.