Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi

Posted by: shoshinkan

Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/19/06 04:27 PM

Hi All,

Just wanted to discuss the merits of both positions and the 'naturalness' of them, I have trained naihanchi dachi (straddle leg stance) a long time now and see benefit in it, however it IMO is certainly NOT 'natural' - a key priciple of the shorin ryu I practise.

With that in mind shiko dachi (horse stance, feet open natural) seems to deliver everything naihanchi dachi does from a self defense appplication perspective, along with it being 'natural'.............

I do see training merit in naihanchi dachi for body structure and early training but should it remain part of our training long term?

Obviously a knock on effect is the naihanchi kata, should it be performed/trained and applied in shiko dachi?????

Lets talk about it.......
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/19/06 06:20 PM

I'm going to translate naihanchi dachi as 'kiba dachi', since I haven't practiced naihanchi stance.

for applications where you need to sink lower, use shiko dachi. if higher up, use kiba dachi. simple as that.

The reason kiba doesn't feel natural to some is because they practice it too low. I would think the same applies to Naihanchi dachi.

this looks like kiba dachi to me (but I know its referred to as naihanchi):
http://www.shorinryu.de/public/familie/meister/motobu/Bilder/Motobu%20naihanchi.jpg

shiko dachi
http://www.iogkf.be/images/fotos/Morio1.gif
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/19/06 06:57 PM

Hi Ed,

The links are good references to the stances, whilst i agree that the shiko dachi can be done lower the dynamics also remain good higher, in the naihanchi/kiba position.

the Motobu Sensei picture is classic, but my point of interest is that the stance he shows certianly doesnt look, or feel 'natural' to me, its a locked rooting posture.

This should be a good discussion!
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/19/06 07:13 PM

Naihanchi dachi is an energetic position. It is natural not because of its static position, but because of its method of power generation. In shorin much of our power is generated much like that of a coil. In naihanchi we learn to wind the coil and release it to generate power. It is natural because it does not use muscle tightening, but natural tension through structure and position of the body. Knowledge of this method of power generation is key to performance and advanced application of shorin principles.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/19/06 07:46 PM

Hi Medulanet,

I certainly agree that naihanchi teaches power generation, I also practise and see the 'natural' tension aspect, via structure, I have no issues whatsoever with these 'lessons'.

But naihanchi dachi isnt a natural way to stand, react or apply technique period, teaching begineers shows us this, as does the precise 'form' of naihanchi performed in the stance, including the cross steps - totally unnatural way of movement IMO. (im not saying rubbish by the way!).

My thinking is that the naihanchi dachi is simply a training position, teaching us the principles you mention and a few more (rooting, spine position etc etc) not a realistic application position due to its locked nature and that perhaps using the shiko dachi allows freedom of movement in a 'natural' way, ie by turning the hips when stepping, for actual application.

A bit like the shizentai - zenkutsu dachi presentation within Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu and other Shuri/tomari te systems.

Maybee im looking to hard here but I thought it worth discussing, be gentle with me I do realise I speaketh the devils tounge.........
Posted by: Borrek

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/19/06 08:09 PM

Quote:


But naihanchi dachi isnt a natural way to stand, react or apply technique period, teaching begineers shows us this, as does the precise 'form' of naihanchi performed in the stance, including the cross steps - totally unnatural way of movement IMO. (im not saying rubbish by the way!).






Kosa dachi is also a stance that I wouldn't want to find myself in statically, but dynamically it has definite merits. A fast mawatte is one. I would say naihanchi dachi is the same. It is a "coiled spring" stance. Your power is building and ready to explode in the next move. If caught in that stance or required to keep it for an extended period it is definitely "unnatural" but hitting that stance to give another technique more explosive power is very natural. Its kind of the crouch before the jump.
Posted by: WuXing

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/19/06 09:00 PM

one of the structural advantages of the naihanchi stance is that it is very stable when being pulled or pushed, or for pulling and pushing. kiba dachi, with the feet pointing outwards 45 degrees, is not as stable for that purpose.
Many things that are learned in martial arts don't feel natural at first. Like Bruce Lee said it's like "unnatural naturalness, or natural unnaturalness." The naihanchi stance feels very natural for me, though I've been practicing it for 13 or 14 years now. It is important to note that it is not an especially low stance, even though it is taught that way in some schools at first. The parallel-thighs horse stance is really a training stance as I understand it. Once the naihanchi kata is learned and becomes natural, it has great fighting applications. It's not just a training method for beginners. I believe it was originally a fighting style all by itself which was formed into kata by the early Shuri-te masters like Matsumura.
So it is really hard to judge what is "natural" and not...in martial arts things that weren't considered natural before become natural with practice.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/19/06 09:22 PM

if a 'stance' is thought of as a momentary position, not as a posture, then other possiblities are available. neko ashi dachi is a perfect example of how a stance can go wrong when it's thought of as a posture instead of a transitional stance - it presents itself when close quarter kicking.

by transitional stance I mean either during shifting to side/oblique or dropping weight.

kiba/shiko/naihanchi have different application. a fairly low and well rooted shiko dachi indicates to me 3 main principles: you've already got the advantage (perhaps have the opponent locked in some way), and you drop down into shiko to perform the break/smash/whatever. or, you want to drop weight as fast as possible to augment an escaping technique. or third, to uproot the opponent's CG (exactly like Judo principles) before a throw.
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/sukuinage.htm

kiba dachi
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ipponseoi.htm
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/kataguruma.htm

zenkutsu:
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/seoiotoshi.htm

I'm just pointing out one answer(by showing judo throws) of how a 'stance' is transitional and not just static.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/20/06 05:30 AM

Great posts guys, all good information and views.

Certainly i view different stances in different ways, ie transitional (striking and evasion)for movement and 'static' for force application (locking/pinning and throwing) and sometimes both, at different times......

However by its very nature, feet facing directly forward, sitting into the stance to root, pushing the knees out to the outside of the foot the naihanchi dachi in my mind lends itself only to static application of force (and if im honest mainly downward control),

you just dont/cant 'naturally' step through it, and the position when 'made' correctly is locked. This is where I see it as not as practical for application as shiko dachi (or naihanchi dachi with the feet slightly open, natural).

I work naihanchi dachi as Motobu Sensei describes, feet slightly over shoulder width apart, not to wide as a classic Japanese shiko dachi/kiba dachi.

Ask any begineer to relax when standing and see what happens with the feet, they simply point outwards a little, everytime.

Now another example is say in naihanchi kata we are working from a strong naihanchi dachi allowing our upperbody to turn when performing all the side techniques, in the classical naihanchi dachi this doesnt feel natural, I actually feel like im working against myself, if i splay my feet a little and allow the opposite foot to turn out (almost forming a front stance to the side) the force delivery seems much more comftorable and effective, not locked, with more structure I realise that the 'torque' is different, perhaps the torque is the important lesson from the stance?

Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/20/06 11:18 AM

Hi Jim,

I'm somewhat on Ed's side, using the naihanchi dachi as a finish to a technique, not a staging platform to launch an attack. Of course the name of the stance varies by the style.

Consider

| | Naihanchi Dachi (motobu)
/ \ Naihanchi Dachi (isshinryu)
-------------------------------------------------
| | Kiba Dachi
\ / Shiko Dachi
\ / Seiuchin Dachin (isshinryu)

Aside with Isshinryu's naihanchi dachi / \ stance (toes inward), this is contrary to Motobu's opinions in his 1930's publications, but Isshinryu's founder did train with Motobu. Whether his opinion changed in time I can't say. The finishing use of the innward toe technique can represent a lower leg lock/tkd for the opponent.

The way I interpret the lower body technique of the isshinryu nihanchi kata, it contains a great many attacks to your opponents lower body, and the return to the naihanchi stance represents the conclusion of that lower body attack and the accopmanying upper body movement.

A side benefit found in the upper body turning in naihanchi is its development of the abdominal area for the spin in Chinto kata.

There remain many other perspectives. One of the Shimabuku Ezio lineages of Naihanchi work 180 degree turns into the kata during execution, offering another view of the technique potential. Of course the technique can be executed in any direction, forward or backwards in style.

I even teach teenagers jumping spinning crescent kicks in naihanchi (perverse that I am) to use their excess energies abit.
Posted by: Raul Perez

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/20/06 01:36 PM

Interesting Topic and posts. I'm glad I took the time to read all the posts as much of what was already posted is what I was going to say (more specifically Ed Morris and Wuxing).

However I will expand a bit:

As WuXing stated Naihanchi Dachi with the feet straight ahead is more structurally sound than having your feet naturally splay at 45 degree angles. This purpose, as stated before, is to pull your opponent off balance when you are on the side of him/her and/or to prevent them from pulling you off balance. There are other applications but this is the very basic and easily understood application.

The way I was taught to move was infact to splay the rooted foot 45 degress when you cross the other in front. So yes you are in basically a front stance and if you think about it... before your feet cross each other you are in cat stance! So the 3 fundamental stances are found in the Naihanchi Kata! A few additional applications of Naihanchi were noted by Ed Morris. That should be enough to get the thought process going on how to apply naihanchi stance in some situations.

Now as far as feeling natural when doing this kata... well that is a matter of how you see it. closing your eyes and looking away when a punch comes is natural but not combatively efficient (keep your chin down and cover your face), Keeping the passive hand at your chin when throwing a punch with the other hand does not feel natural at first, throwing a front kick while keeping your hands up to protect your face does not feel natural at first. But all of these "corrections" makes sense when placed in a full contact situation.

Kata is what kata is... a collection of fighting principles, techniques, etc. Kata MUST be performed as it was taught and NO alterations should be done to the kata. Bunkai is bunkai and the interpretations can veer off from the kata a bit as long as it adheres to the kata's conceptual principles. BUT Bunkai should never be integrated into the Kata. If you do this you lose the true meaning of the kata and the true fighting principles that made it up. That is the reason why we have so many versions of the same kata in different systems.

If you dont understand it then strive to understand it. It may not come right away as some other things have. But given enough time and thought on it the meaning will reveal itself to you when you are ready to see.

I'll leave you with this: avoid becoming overly theoretical or technical as this will develop a weakness.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/20/06 01:56 PM

Victor, Raul thankyou for your considered posts, most interesting and usefull, I continue to ponder withoubt getting to deep.........
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/20/06 03:30 PM

'Kata is what kata is... a collection of fighting principles, techniques, etc. Kata MUST be performed as it was taught and NO alterations should be done to the kata.'


Whilst I understand where you are coming from here (just to change kata withoubt reason is madness) I have to disagree, pehaps if I learned from an Okinawan Master and never left that Sensei I can agree, but what happens when perhaps our early training was not correct, in fact bad for us? What happens when we discover that the version of a kata we are learning is 'made' up or not accurate to the accepted 'true' form, what happens when we look at obviously accurate historical references and dont see/arnt taught these things in our systems?

I choose to incorporate principles/technique and methods that I believe are true to my karate journey and principles of shorin ryu, and am supported by several senior martial artists, my Sempai and Sensei - I have no issues with changing kata to take me nearer karates truth, this is never done lightly or withoubt good reason.

Of course many, many systems dont do this and continue to just do their karate, which is fine but alot of it is garbage. Should some people train in garbage to keep loyalty to their Sensei and systems? Maybee, maybee not.

And some systems dont do this but are fortunate enough to have impeccable lineage, they dont need to make changes and im jealous! However i do feel very fortunate to be training where I am right now, my Sensei makes improvements to things all the time as his journey continues!

I view the 'changed' kata that I now practise as far more accurate than when i started out, and ultimatly they are the same kata (albeit form different systems in some cases, karate is and should be personal to each of us, based on the expierience of those that came before.

I recently viewed 3 Okinawan masters from the same system (by video admitidly ) perform the same kata - very differently, including technical differences not just movement style, same essence and principles were obvious though.
Posted by: Raul Perez

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/20/06 07:05 PM

Shoshinkan,

I see your point and understand where you are comming from but I still do not agree with you.

Quote:

but what happens when perhaps our early training was not correct, in fact bad for us?




Can you describe anything that you had done that you felt was "bad" for your health?
Makiwara training is a traditional okinawan training implement. Some medical research claims that this developes arthritis. But there are people who hit the makiwara for 40+ years and develop nothing.
Some say that the Goju way of practicing Sanchin is detrimental for your health but there are many Goju practitioners and masters who live well over 80 years old. Thai boxers kicked bannana trees to toughen their shins.
It was said by some internal MAs that they would develop blood clots and die early however there are tons who live to a ripe old age.

Do you feel the Naihanchi stance is infact bad for your health? If so why?

Quote:

What happens when we discover that the version of a kata we are learning is 'made' up or not accurate to the accepted 'true' form, what happens when we look at obviously accurate historical references and dont see/arnt taught these things in our systems?




What exactly is the true form? If you change what was already changed, how do you know that you changed it for the better?

Quote:

I choose to incorporate principles/technique and methods that I believe are true to my karate journey and principles of shorin ryu, and am supported by several senior martial artists, my Sempai and Sensei - I have no issues with changing kata to take me nearer karates truth, this is never done lightly or withoubt good reason.





My truth could be different from your truth. Possibly for various reasons. Height, weight, more or less conditioned body, physical limitations, personal experiences. Because of that do I have the right to change the form you or my master taught me because it just doesnt feel right?

An interesting story... The founder of my association, Albert Geraldi, said that when he trained under Oyata in Okinawa Oyata always bent his middle finger a little bit doing a knife hand block. Because he thought that is how it is to be done he mimicked Oyata's hand position. One day Oyata went up to him and said... "Oh you have broken finger too?!"

Truth is in the eye of the beholder, or as the saying goes.

Quote:

And some systems dont do this but are fortunate enough to have impeccable lineage, they dont need to make changes and im jealous! However i do feel very fortunate to be training where I am right now, my Sensei makes improvements to things all the time as his journey continues!

I view the 'changed' kata that I now practise as far more accurate than when i started out, and ultimatly they are the same kata (albeit from different systems in some cases, karate is and should be personal to each of us, based on the expierience of those that came before.




Shigeru Nakamura one of the late masters in my system is said to teach katas that were the least changed from the originals. In trying to preserve this Oyata taught his students the same way Nakamura taught him, Geraldi to his students, his students to me.

I've compared the katas to other okinawan systems and noted many instances where I throw a side kick most throw a front kick. This is possibly because Nakamura was heavy into full contact fighting and favored the side kick.

Which side is right? which kick is wrong? Should I change it? My answer is no. Keep it the way it is. Hand it down as it was handed down before me.

My training is different from my instructors, my views on kata principles is also different in some aspects, the way I fight is also somewhat different. In that aspect that is MY journey. That is how we should, in my opinion, personalize and make it one with us. But my katas are the same.

Kata is the core of the art. To change it changes the art, changes the concepts, the vital points that are to be struck, takes away the throws, limits the grappling, etc.

If I were to add back the front kicks or change naihanchi stance to shiko dachi then I no longer practice Ryukyu Kempo but something else. I cheat those I teach the "new" version too out of what I discovered from the "old" form. And more importantly, I take away the connection that form had with those that came before me.
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/20/06 09:32 PM

Raul,

I can understand the issue of change for the student, but the reality of Okinawan karate is everything always kept changing. There was no eternal standard to hold up for ever, especially as nothing had been documented.

Even if you change nothing as your decades of training pass, and your center sinks and you move more naturally change occurs from your initial studies.

If change should not occur, why did Funakoshi creating his Shotokan/JKA change so much before insisting nothing should change. Or why are their innumerable Patsai kata created on one small island, or all the other variations.

True most of those who changed the kata did so after decades of training, but then some of us have decades behind us too. Some Okinawan traditions, such as the way I learnt Isshinryu (not necessarily true for the rest of Isshinryu, for the record) actually learnt many variant forms of our kata from the beginning 30+ years ago, all of them coming from the founder of the system.

An istructor might make changes to focus on certain principles, none of which change the form, they're just subsidiary drills, such as my jumping crescent kicks in Naifanchi for a certain class of student. Those subsidiary techniques don't change naifanchi, just reflect specific other drills using naifanchi as the source.

And how do you keep change from occurring? Written record, nothing I've seen ever written even remotely describes what actually occurs within the physical movement of a kata. In fact the only system I know that might work is what correographers use to record dance, and it's a very, very complex techincal language, to record movement exactly. Words don't do it.

Nor does video tape. That only reflects a specific preformance, and assuming a good one, doesn't show the innumberable steps of development ot make that happen. And most of the filmed forms are inexact, dont show all the angles, etc. or even small techniques clearly enough to use.

An instructor can impress, don't change the kata, but I've never seen one good enough to really make that happen.

The idea seems only a useful tool for beginners learning first mechanics of movement.

I often think a more profitable line of inquiry is how to control the change that will take place, especially after we're gone, and the next generation do whatever they please anyway.

Which is the right kata? Which is unchanged? What proof is there that it's never been changed.

Some things to ponder.

Respectfully,
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/21/06 12:22 AM

[image]Image Hosted by ImageShack.us[/image]
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/21/06 05:23 AM

Firstly regarding the bad for health aspect, well im talking about unsafe practise really, not specifically kata, locking arms out, training full speed for a few hours when ill in the name of 'spirit', little control or respect in kumite that kind of thing (i have bitter sweet memories of the early days!).

Re the naihanchi stance, whilst I cant prove it is bad for your health IMO it certainly isnt natural, opening my feet a little and letting the weight of my body out over the toes seems far more comftorable.

The true form, well as a starting point and only from my perspective most of the 'modern' systems seem to have lost alot of the true essence of early karate kata, mainly through standardisation and making the technique 'safer' for school children to learn, and of course this also impacts application practises. And of course the changes that occur over time as the art is passed from generation to generation is significant, across cultures etc etc. and what the art is used for also impacts, eg sport perhaps.

regarding making changes because they dont feel right, I may have not been clear - if it doesnt feel right, and solid relevant historical research supports that it isnt right or could be better, and anothe rway works better, then your Seniors and Sensei agree why not change something? (within the context of karate) I see this as improving the art I practise,albeit done very very carefully.

I like the finger story, so true and how often does this happen in the name of 'correct' form, lets face it we are all different and our karate should reflect this to some degree, my naihanchi should be different to someone who has a totally different body shape or application use, sure the base form is remarkably similair for the teaching, practise stages but surley we move on from this.

re your kick example (a good one) well I say whatever is right for you, front or side kick is the way to go, of course honour the tradition passed to you but if a front kick works better, or you cant do a side kick for any reason, why not change (or why not do both?)- a big part of okinawan karate to me is the ability to adapt and get the job done, not just inherit and carry on for the sake of tradition.

I view karate alot more these days withoubt the style or system limitations (I really only recognise Shorin and Shorei as a little 'different') and find alot more comfort and sense in this, of course others dont and thats fine for them.

As a finishing example I know alot of superb Shotokan people, really seriously good budoka. The moment they try to apply their kata, significant changes seem to happen technically (often much more like Shorin Ryu), why is that I wonder?

This is no disrespect to Shotokan, its a highly developed art with some superb practioners - If i wanted to win a kata comp or do well in ippon kumite then i would train my shorin Ryu in the Shotokan methods developed in the Japanese universitys and passed to the UK,

Karate should be trained with the application/function we hope to achieve from it well and truly in mind, and if we do this then it will have impact right through our training, inc the kata IMO.

Thanks for your comments Raul, im really pleased that we can discuss this rather 'edgy' subject like gentlemen, your views and expierience are most interesting.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/21/06 06:44 AM

sho, when you engage in a game of 'tug o war', do you assume (naturally) a shiko dachi or naihanchi dachi like-stance?

I suspect it's closer to naihanchi stance, at least for me feet parallel feels the most structually sound for that application...why do you suppose that stance is more 'comfortable' when pulling?
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/21/06 12:25 PM

LOL Ed,

I see your point and well made, Im not debating the effectivness of the naihanchi dachi to resist/apply force from the side, for that it is structurally sound of course.

But to keep in line with where your coming from I personally do not see that use in application, I often move to the side of an opponent (using the cross step) and then face them in naihanchi dachi straight on (to their side), using the 'twist' of the hips to power the technique, I dont end up in a side stance facing someone of one leg if you catch my drift. (I found the returning wave kick the clue on this, you need to be across the opponents centre, sideways on, kick the back of the knee, also an old 'okinawan' saying, ie side kick is turn to the relevant side and kick, not remain where you are and kick to the side).

But you make a point, i shall play with things a few more years and see whats what i think. I do realise that we all work these things in different ways for different reasons.
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/22/06 12:18 PM

I am trying to think exactly what is so unnatural about naihanchi dachi. Feet shoulder width facing forward or slightly in depending on body structure. Drop weight and allow knees to fall forward, not pushed our or in. Keep back straight. Is it the natural tension felt when performing the stance. If you eliminate this you will never be able to produce the power generation key to shorin application. This is found in both naihanchi dachi and naname zenkutsu dachi. Is it the stepping which simply requires one to develop pliability in the hips and the ability to drop the weight effectively. When I played college football(american) there were situations when I would have my feet at 45 degrees and straight on as well. Since I played fullback I know what it is to, lets say, get physical with individuals. It was never forced but came natural. The same for my high school wrestling days. When I lifted weights there were sometimes when I used a stance with my feet 45 and others when they were straight on. It is a stance used to generate an enourmous amount of power. Its like controlling the power of a wild horse between your legs just waiting to explode. Once you tame it you can channel it through your upper body with sensitivity and relaxation to produce devestating results.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/22/06 12:58 PM

Re unnatural im thinking more along the moving/mobility angle.

Naihanchi has its purposes and i agree with most of what you say, its very important stuff.

but mobile it is not, and stepping across ourselves hips square just doesnt look or feel right!

But you raise good , valid points. I just wanted to talk about these things.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/22/06 01:08 PM

Quote:

Its like controlling the power of a wild horse between your legs just waiting to explode.


{hehe...he calls it his 'wild horse'}

sorry, just being a goof.

where is everyones weight distribution on the foot in kiba/naihanchi dachi? outer edge, ball, heel? also, is there a difference between kiba and naihanchi stance?
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/22/06 01:14 PM

But is the step across just that or is there more? Is it a stomp to the foot of an opponent who is actually in front or at a 45 degree angle and you step all the way over in the kata to develop muscles and tendons for power generation. Is the step a knee strike to the same? Is the step a leg lock entagling the leg of your opponent? Does the akward position show how to free your leg after it has been entangled via the naihanchi kick. Does the cross legged position imply a knee strike and not literally stepping across when fighting like it does so many other times in kata? Is kata always natural in performance or always natural in application. Is the perceived unnaturalness in performance designed to produce smooth natural application. Is the crossover step only to be applied when the opponent is locked in and held tightly to facilitate a throw? I feel any of the unnaturalness fades away when the applications are added against a resisting opponent.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/22/06 06:00 PM

re weight distribution on the feet in naihanchi, I have been taught a few ways !

However I practise pushing weight over the outside edge of a flat foot, and of course with the weight over the toes, ie a little forward bend in the knees.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/22/06 06:07 PM

In my opinion its a step to facilitate weight application on a locked opponent/evasion with parry/balance distruption with grab dependending on the situation.

any step in karate can be seen as a stomp, and I use them as such happily, however if this was its prime purpose then we wouldnt lead with the ball of the foot and the hips would certainly turn to facilitate stomping.

But your thoughts are all possabilities that I have worked/do work or have considered/do consider.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/22/06 06:38 PM

I would ask a more basic question. I've used kiba dachi for naihanchi forever, and the crux of it was to keep the hips in line whenever executing side kicks. This was done in response to a seminar I attended where one of the masters of karate told us that there was never "ushiro motion in a side kick". "Side kicks are to the side... back kicks are to the rear", if I remember his statement correctly.

In about 75 percent of the schools I've visited lately, the "side kick" is kind of a half-side, half-back kick, and I haven't seen any of the people doing them have any idea where the target was when they were throwing them.

While I know you guys are looking for some "high tech knowledge" on this stance and these movements, I think a lot of the basic information on this needs to be resolved first. The balance points and movements are different from kiba dachi and seiuchin dachi because of the roll of the hip joint to point the feet out at 45 degrees.

Also, it causes a more noticeable action of the upper body to shift into a "cat stance" from kiba dachi, and I'm just wondering if you have had any conversations about it. I have my own ideas about it, but just wondered what you guys thought.

Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/22/06 06:49 PM

I was told some time ago by a senior (Okinawan trained) that actually the meaning of back kick is to turn around to face the back - and kick.

now of course i understand that isnt always the case but it is a major supporting reason why im having this discussion, by opening the feet the naihanchi dachi (shoulder width kiba dachi)facilitates turning the hips much better (for me anyway) then your cross step becomes a step forward if you catch my drift.

Its good to have more decent input, thankyou for your post
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/22/06 10:07 PM

A back kick is a desparate move, since you already have the disadvantage of your back turned to an opponent.

on topic:
is there a difference between kiba dachi and naihanchi dachi?
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/23/06 01:38 AM

Actually I was just training with Kensei Taba 10th Dan, the most senior Matsubayashi Ryu practioner alive, who stated that in the step in Naihanchi you don't step with the toes or ball of the foot, but with the side of the foot like in a side kick.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/23/06 03:36 AM

Lucky you! Thankyou for the comments, i have heard of this before.

Obviously different 'styles' will emphasise different methods of doing the same thing.

Posted by: BrianS

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/23/06 05:12 AM

Nobody even commented on my pic.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/23/06 10:31 AM

thats what you get for posting dirty pictures on a forum.
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/23/06 02:15 PM

Hello Shoshinkan:

As you describe the transitional vs. static question re: stances both have inherent value as well as function regardless of the given stance, correct? You are not suggesting that whatever stance was merely a haphazard connection, ("fluff" if you will) in order to get to the real meat ie the next position correct???

Let us determine how we are all demonstrating the assorted stances and we'll have a better understanding/discussion!

Horse/kiba= feet parallel. Knees bent well, an absolute maximum being thigh-parallel to the floor. Special care, focus upon the knees to prevent injury. The hips must be meaningfully lowered to gain any benefit.

Neihanchi= Feet turned inward. Knees pressed outward CAREFULLY. Maximum knee position middle of the foot. Hips/pelvis, ahhh depends on how we are taught. Tucked under 1000% immediately and full force. Tucked under slowly, focusing on the small muscles, attachements? All kinds of timing and variation here....

Perhaps the real value of these stances (any?) being the ability to find a baseline, a standard from which we can begin to figure out methods of power generation? Otherwise figuring out, isolating the assorted parts involved is pure chaos... I respectfully challenge the from the side idea being the specific reason of/for neihanchi stance... if my angle is wrong at ANY time we move don't we? Power is generated far more so at lessor than the either 0/180 degree mark many propose neihanchi designed around (ie from the sides). I disbelieve the fully to the side idea...

Merely my opinion,
J
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/23/06 02:18 PM

Hello Shoshinkan:

Would the neihanchi stance "be better" if the question were not surrounding ~naturalness~ of the position but instead exploring how to unlock the hip and pelvis (explore, isolate, examine)?

J
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/23/06 02:29 PM

Hello Ed:

Kiba vs. Neihanchi....
"Neihanchi" is the ~little brother~ of its bigger sibling "Horse"!!!!

The differences being the the pelvis, knees and feet. The more the feet open/turn (within sanity-safety) the more options are available. We cannot lower our pelvis, drop our hips with our own structure in our way. Neihanchi cannot maintain a fixed position via structure whereas horse will...

J
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/23/06 02:38 PM

Hello Medulant:

<<Naihanchi dachi is an energetic position.

Now without choking us with ~esoterica~ yin-yang cliches so forth, can you help flesh this out better?

<<In naihanchi we learn to wind the coil and release it to generate power.

More please!!!! Sounds akin to perhaps an "Okinawan Hula" of sorts...(ie what the hips do generates lots of power inherent to where in the undulation it is...)

<<it does not use muscle tightening, but natural tension through structure and position of the body.

Does tightening ENABLE power (ie pulling back the rubber band, winding it up just before it is let go and the power then unleashed )

J
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/23/06 04:42 PM

One of the main (although not the only) methods of generating power in okinawan karate is the "coil" method. This is overtly demonstrated in Naihanchi and Naname Zenkutsu dachi stances and more subtely in others. At rest our bodies are extended. In karate we "draw in" to set the tension on this "coil." In Naihanchi dachi by pointing the toes either forward or sightly inward and dropping our center we create a natural tension in the leg muscles. In the classical okinawan kata a karateka learns to set this tension and release it in fighting. In Naihanchi the tension is set and never really released. It is used in the Naihanchi kick and used as a basis for generating power in hand techs, but it is very controlled and utilized in a small area. Development of this power is key to realizing the full potential of okinawan karate. Now tightening of muscles by using strength and not structure robs a karateka of power and prevents using the power of the entire body. This is a very simple overview and does not take into account the other methods of power gneration that are working along with this as well.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/23/06 05:21 PM

Great discussion guys, keep it coming.

I played a little more the last few days and as stated I do see the benefits, particulary from the shorin ryu power generation perspective and what I call 'light' rooting, ie natural structure not enforced tension or extension.

My naihanchi dachi is just slightly wider than my shoulders, exactly the same width/length as my front stance, horse stance back stance etc etc, the foot positions and hip placement make the stances what they are,

my prime concern is that whilst usefull from a principle learning perspective, I have found that the horse stance does everything naihanchi does (except the power generation bit admitidly! That will be the natural tension bit, the 'spring')and remains very mobile a key principle to the shorin ryu I practise.

Posted by: medulanet

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/23/06 06:58 PM

Sho, I think that we are basically on the same page. Naihanchi is a tanrenho or training kata. It is the foundation of shorin ryu and contains all of its principles although concealed. Naihanchi is also the ultimate inside fighting kata. Just like you said all can be accomplished through other means except its unique power generation methods. It is learned in naihanchi and then cultivated further in the classical okinawan kata and then comes to a head in the ultimate kata of shorin ryu kusanku. Actually by studying Naihanchi its method of power generation can be studied in many of the classical kata, one of the main places being naname zenkutsu dachi.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/23/06 07:09 PM

Quote:

Horse/kiba= feet parallel. Knees bent well, an absolute maximum being thigh-parallel to the floor. Special care, focus upon the knees to prevent injury. The hips must be meaningfully lowered to gain any benefit.





The significant difference in balance created by these two different positions is pretty well defined by the definition above. As the knees are bending in a parallel position in the kiba dachi position, the "push" of the bones in the lower skeleton does not tend to push you off balance as you lower your stance. In Naihanchi dachi, the angled structure has a tendency to "move the upper body backward" rather than down (at least for us old fat guys) which throws us off balance. That tendency has to be compensated for ahead of the actual push of the stance downward by opening it up more and more.

The naihanchi stance seems to be more well suited to taller people, while the kiba dachi stance seems to work well for almost anyone. The true test of the stance, however, is to execute technique from it when it's at its maximum.

Over the years, I've noticed that the "up and down" motion is more easily controlled from the kiba dachi version without a lot of "wavering" in the movements. I've also used the stepover movement before that was discussed of stepping over in a manner that was like doing a side kick. Where I find the kiba dachi position most favorable, however, is in the ability to simply rock forward onto the balls of the feet to initiate a complete change of lower body structure.

Years ago, we had something called "stance drills", where we started with out feet close together and alternately went from the balls of our feet to the heels and back to change stances until we reached a maximum width in our horse and naihanchi stances. With each change, we had to execute whatever was the most difficult technique from that particular stance, and while it was a pain to do, it helped our karate tremendously.

As a general rule, there aren't any bad balance drills if they help your balance. While there are a lot of different methods to generate power in techniques, nothing beats having a solid base with the structure to drive the technique into the target. "There are a lot of ways to skin a cat, but not many ways to make the cat like it". Moving from "stretched out" stances is one of the harder skills to learn, and every style seems to have its own method of doing the same movements from them. I think "which is best" is still a jump ball, depending on how well you do your techniques from whatever stance you find yourself in.

Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/23/06 07:44 PM

It would seem that way Medulanet!
Posted by: Alejandro

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/24/06 09:18 PM

Amazing discussion everyone!

I strongly recommend Kiyoshi Arakaki's book "Secrets of Okinawan Karate..." It thoroughly explores the fundametal techniques of shuri karate, from energy generation (gamaku, chinkuchi, etc.), gravity principles, and principles of Naifanchi kata.

I think one important aspect of Naifanchi is to learn to move the body effectively without shifting weight overly to one side; learning to manipulate your center of gravity. A bio-mechanical purpose. Simply keep in mind the power generation of shuri derived karate, in that it relies not on muscular tension. Compare Naifanchi to what is learned in Sanchin for more interesting food for thought.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/27/06 09:47 AM

Nice post and extremly relevant, the book you mention is good and I have found it very usefull in my studies, also to compare the Naiahnchi - Sanchin does show some distinct different slants on principle emphasis, very good study IMO.
Posted by: Wado-AJ

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/29/06 08:15 AM

Quote:

however it IMO is certainly NOT 'natural'




It should feel natural..
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/29/06 10:05 AM

Hello Medulant:

<<I am trying to think exactly what is so unnatural about naihanchi dachi.

Why turn the feet inward ? What happens with the body structure, muscles, tendons, ligaments exactly when that is done? Why do those things benefit us sufficently such that an entire practice (kata) is created around that very specific idea???

J
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/29/06 10:29 AM

Hello Medulant:

<<Is it a stomp to the foot of an opponent who is actually in front or at a 45 degree angle

The opponent can be anywhere she/he desires. If the opponent is in front however what does that make the horizontal (sideways) quality of the naihanchi stance ? Perhaps the kata whispers how to unlock the pelvic carraige and the power doing so can produce???? [If I understand the foot stomp of which you speak "correctly" I'm not fond of it. It seems to glue the opponents foot summarily unable/unaware of our movements...]

<<how to free your leg after it has been entangled via the naihanchi kick.

My leg has been entangled by what again???

<Does the cross legged position imply a knee strike

Gentle....

Are they mutually exclusive things? Perhaps such knees are implied in the movements themselves... (ie Are not all front kicks infer knee strikes within their basic mechanics) You speak in terms of awkwardness...how do any of us decipher the awkward positions which cause us challenges? Does this awkwardness mean we merely tight... or is there something we were unaware of which can generate metaphoric "nuclear power" (sic. if we merely unlock things within the proper sequences)???

Some of the sequences particular to many of the movements you spoke of need done carefully, especially when targeting the knee joint... which is badly designed to take too much abuse....

Merely my opinion, and I am frequently mistaken ...
J
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/29/06 10:34 AM

yes i see your point, but anything practised enough can 'feel' natural - but that isnt natural then is it, or is it?

Its a minor point as I think the discussion has highlighted the topic well.
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/29/06 10:34 AM

Hello Brian:

Nice truck !!!!

Jeff [Running for cover... (from muddy Brian)]
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/29/06 10:46 AM

Hello WuXing:

<<one of the structural advantages of the naihanchi stance is that it is very stable when being pulled or pushed, or for pulling and pushing.

Just so we've both on the same page here... if you could ONLY call Brians photo Neihanchi stance or Horse (aka Kiba dachi) stance, and could only use only one or the other which would you classify it as being?

<<kiba dachi, with the feet pointing outwards 45 degrees, is not as stable for that purpose.

Even if we modified Brians foot width somewhat and closed his foot positioning just slightly (ie less that what he shows currently)... are you contending that his position would be LESS stable structurally than Neihanchi?

I would characterize Neihanchi as being feet ONLY shoulder width apart and feet characteristically turned inward slightly....? Are you proposing that given my example that Naihanchi is MORE stable than the "horse" stance or the slightly different variation of which Brian shows????

J
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/29/06 10:59 AM

Hello Shoshin:

When you speak of "rooted position" (ie locked) whether Mabuni sensei's or otherwsie are we talking statue like immobility or something different, lessor???

From the photo, several things are difficult to see which would be meaningful. What are his hips/pelvis doing? What are his feet & knees doing exactly?

The photo makes him look as if he were almost literally poured into the frame.... I for one would love to have a "context" see how big/small he truly was compaired to another person... a VW beetle vehicle... so forth. To me that appears a very high horse/kiba, but is difficult to tell contextually because the gentleman appears to be very, very solid, squat and compact... almost like a "fire hydrant", if you will forgive the image.

Seeking clarification,
J
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/29/06 11:00 AM

Compare Naifanchi to what is learned in Sanchin for more interesting food for thought.

There is a contrast but its explained by their roots.

There is muscle tension and concentration on strength and body flow with breathing in Sanchin kata, this a internal kata that focus on building internal power and closer range power as with Naihanchi which focus on fighting from and around kiba-dachi. Naihanchi swift flowing, snappy and exploding movements are in contrast to the smooth powerful and flowing breathing moves of Sanchin. Both are said to be the focus of each systems principles. Both build short range explosive power at different ranges though, and obviously different ways. One is a fighting kata that other a system training kata.

These kata are in contrast to each other as are there roots one from Shaolin/Wai-Jian/external the other from a combination of Nei-Jia/intenal & Wai-Jia. You see the difference in there origin.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/29/06 12:54 PM

Hi All,

brians pictures dont really help with what I do for Naihanchi Dachi, im much higher.

To make the stance (ie learn) in my dojo we do this -

feet together,
splay both sets of toes out 45 degs off straight
splay the heels out another 45 degs off straight
pull toes out so they are straight forward

as if sitting on a bar stool sink and gently push the weight out over towards the outside of the feet (weight just behind the ball of the foot), knees bent.

This is my basic Naihanchi Dachi, the kiba dachi is generally much lower as is the shiko dachi in the picture.

My 'point' was to keep the same (a smidging over shoulder) width but have the feet like a shiko dachi, ie outwards facing (ie how I do shiko dachi anyway).
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/29/06 02:57 PM

My picture was that of shiko dachi,not naihanchi. At the time I trained for leg strength,that was over ten years ago BTW. Now my stance is higher with functionality in mind.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/29/06 04:24 PM

OMG I didnt realise that was YOU Brian, the mud - outside training....its all making sense now!
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/29/06 04:31 PM

A few answers to a few questions, but not too many. Have you ever played basketball and tried to shoot a set shot as opposed to a jump shot? When shooting a set shot you need to get lift without jumping and many people naturally stand with their feet pointed straight forward or slightly in to get that lift and power in their shot. Naihanchi follow the same principles. I'm not an expert in anatomy so I can't explain exactly why this posture gives us these specific results, but I do know it sets a certain level of tension in the muscles due to the position or structure. Because this tension is set by structure and not muscle tightening due to physical strength the energy is able to flow better through the body. This aids in toning and conditioning the lower body as well as creating potential for explosive power when released. This is key to developing power in Shorin Ryu karate. Again, for a lot of this stuff I have to show you.

Naihanchi has a sideways quality of focus to illustrate its ability to defend 180 degrees. However, if you add the elbow strikes to opponents behind you and a few other techs then it illustrates 360 degrees of combat effectiveness. Don't only look at the end of movements, the beginnings can be just as effective if not more. The first part of the step over in Naihanchi can be an ankle kick to an opponent advancing from directly in front. Remember, one of the keys to understanding kata reaction to attacks are no always obvious examine attacks coming from all angles and you will develop a new understanding of Shorin Ryu.

You can use techniques in Naihanchi to free your leg from a leg lock. As a palace guard the Bushi needed techniques to free themselves from restraints.

In terms of akwardness okinawan karate is as much a study of the culture of uchinanchu as it is of their fighting traditions. They move differently than we do in the west and some of this akwardness is a result of these cultural differences. Akwardness can also mean you ain't doing it right. For example dancing is a very natural way of moving the body in a rythmic fashion, however, so some it is very akward. But just because it is akward to some does not men it is an "unnatural movement." You've got to be able to dance to do karate right, its not tight and robotic, its loose and swift with good structure.

Oh, Brian, the best way to improve leg strength is squats, not stance work.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/29/06 04:53 PM

Quote:

Oh, Brian, the best way to improve leg strength is squats, not stance work.




Yeah,like I said that was ten yrs+ ago,I was just doing as I was told,lol. Thanks for the tip though.

Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/30/06 12:21 PM

Hello Medulanet:

I appreciate your patience by indulging my ~probing~. My art derives from Shorin heritage but lacks these systemic explainations. Does your art explain more detail as to the precise what or why? I too can structurally isolate my pelvis, my lower back and do so... but what I do not possess is the Shorin "code book" systemically explaining what will result or what should be more carefully examined thereof!

I strongly believe there is definately an ~undulatory quality~ (the only example I can find would be akin to Hula dancing) exploring things too easy overlooked, hips, pelvis, lower back. I can only hope "in-tact" systems explain in smaller terms than merely pelvis... so forth.

<<Again, for a lot of this stuff I have to show you.

Perhaps our words explain better still...?!

<<Naihanchi has a sideways quality of focus to illustrate its ability to defend 180 degrees.

Why? Are we anywhere close to as effective at the 0 or 180 marks as we tangibly are at lessor, better angles??? And you raise the spector of being 360 degree effective, does any kata not possess that ability? A particular stance Neihanchi, or Shiko are inherently powerful for specific and particular directions, reasons... not all directions simultainously.... I mean unless we become spider like evolve more legs!

<<. Don't only look at the end of movements, the beginnings can be just as effective if not more. The first part of the step over in Naihanchi can be an ankle kick to an opponent advancing from directly in front.

Do you prefer the "blade edge" of my foot stepping upon your instep or my heel (targeting sidewards into the ankle), or perhaps the achilles tendon from behind, if accessible?

<<Remember, one of the keys to understanding kata reaction

Yet there exists a fixed point FROM which we must begin. If not a ~chaos response~ ensues into wholely haphazard and random attacks and responses.. which lead to certian insanity. Starting at a single point and exploring from that point ensures a common starting position we can all explore... no?

<<You can use techniques in Naihanchi to free your leg from a leg lock.

Help flesh out this idea for me would you? How is my leg locked????

<<As a palace guard the Bushi needed techniques to free themselves from restraints.

You are jesting... right? I was sleeping on "guard duty" and someone almost managed to slip shackles around my ankles... ??? What are we talking about here....?

<<In terms of akwardness okinawan karate is as much a study of the culture of uchinanchu as it is of their fighting traditions.

Perhaps it is even more so a study of anatomy, whether then OR now and far less a question of perceived ancient warrior traditions???

<<the best way to improve leg strength is squats, not stance work.

You mean your "stances" do not contain meaningful lowering of the hips identical to slow, careful "squats" in a severely repetitive way ???

J
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 03/30/06 05:18 PM

But what is your question exactly? Okinawan karate is very simple and very complex at the same time. The code is the kata and there are no secrets in the world. The only answer to solving Shorin is training and listening to your body. In okinawan there is the koshi which is the hip girdle and gammaku which is the muscles inside the hip girdle and their usage. To explain gammaku is not easy, again many things must be felt. Stance work is used to help connect your lower body with the ground and assist in connecting that with the upper body through proper structure. This is different than developing leg strength. The okinawans understood this and performed squats to strengthen the legs and stance work to strengthen their karate. I have neither the time nor the energy to explain Shorin step by step. What about Naihanchi are you questioning it is the foundation and contains all principles of shorin. It is the key to advanced power generation. It teaches solid structure and suppleness at the same time. Ever heard of the rubber arm or rubber leg. Naihanchi teaches these things and they are both ways of escaping limb locks. If you don't know these I suggest you take up some form of grappling like wrestling as it will increase your understanding of karate.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 04/13/06 08:41 AM

Just to update,

Having trained the kata Naihanchi many, many times of late and looked at my application i have settled on alowing my toes to splay slightly out.

I seem to have retained the structure and power development benefits of the stance and improved mobility, waist/hip/knee flexability, it actually feels very natural as well.

My thinking is that in Naha Te were encouraged to point the toes in to 'lock', 'grip' and stabalise,

In most shorin ryu we have toes straight forward, where im at is a tiny adjustment to allow the toes to point out a little- not 45 degrees by any stretch , im guessing about 22.5 degrees..........which also fits in with the 'general' angle that most things I seem to be doing go at.

Anyone else see this or do this - or is it just me that worries about these things to much????????
Posted by: Saisho

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 06/26/06 10:29 AM

"Naihanchi is also the ultimate inside fighting kata"

Medulanet is absolutely correct in this statement. While Okinawa Karate is my passion, I have studied a variety of other arts that are known for "inside fighting" and many of the naihanchi techniques are identical to them.
Posted by: ANDY44

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/01/06 07:13 AM

Hi Paul

One of the uses I had of naihanchi stance when fighting full contact was to get to the side of an opponent if they had covered and were bent over.
Posted by: ANDY44

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/01/06 07:52 AM

As a palace guard the Bushi needed techniques to free themselves from restraints.

You are jesting... right? I was sleeping on "guard duty" and someone almost managed to slip shackles around my ankles... ??? What are we talking about here....?




Good humour but I would be inclined to think he meant if the guard or who ever was to find him self in a leg lock.
As in take down, then a leg lock or such a technique.

Not realy(as the kata would imply) sneaking up on someone and treading on their toes

"Like here gimme your leg"

"naaa"

"Alright"

I think the fighting application will dictate which stance is to be used.

Rice bail throw kibi dachi or even shallower depending on speed of getting in to the stance
side jump amd counter attack Naihanchi Dachi

I suppose going in to a stance is like punching or kicking, under pressure.
Perfection of technique is hard to get
Posted by: aoishi

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/18/06 11:39 PM

I'm dredging up this thread now that I am far enough into my practice to actually say anything.

I didn't see anyone mention the arch that is created in the lower body. I have been taught that the feet, splayed in, weight on the outer edges pulling down into the floor at a sort of 45 degree angle into the ground is the feeling.

Here is a link to a nice article about arches.

Also, I don't think a naihanchi stannce is at all the same as a kiba or jigotai stance.

http://www.northamptonkarate.com/articles/hiddenarches.htm
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/19/06 04:28 AM

Very interesting article, good find!
Posted by: ken harding

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/19/06 04:59 AM

Quote:

yes i see your point, but anything practised enough can 'feel' natural - but that isnt natural then is it, or is it?

Its a minor point as I think the discussion has highlighted the topic well.




Missed all this. The toes in helps power generation and a narrower higher stance puts less pressure on the knees.

I loved the arches article, made great sense. The key is to make the knees transmit weight to the floor...NOT for them to bear the wieght (in the joint itself). Once you get this the power can work in a spiral up from one foot to the other. Splay the toes out and I can't make this happen properly and I find the weight goes into my knees which after a long NH session then ache. After working on the stance for ages I can now do a long Nai Hanchin practice session and I've no pain, a stroger stance and more power with less effort.

Incidentally, who else teaches Nai Hanchi to 8th Kyus in here. I think it is a fabulous kata to start right at the beginning of one's karate life.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/19/06 05:07 AM

I teach it at green belt (after about 1 year) Ken, Pinan 1 and 2 come first in my dojo.

nice post from you there mate, you make some good points.
Posted by: ken harding

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/20/06 04:17 AM

In syllabus terms it still lives at brown belt but am teaching it from now as I think it is a wonderful kata for power generation so they may as well learn it at the start.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/20/06 05:37 AM

Fair enough mate, slighlty (ever so)different paths - same mountain and all that!

As I said the Pinans come first in my dojo, simple long fist methods, forwards / backwards foowork etc etc, then Naihanchi (sideways movement amongst other things!) and Sanchin (Crescent step amongst other things).

works for me!
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/20/06 10:18 AM

one thing that seems to get focused on disproportionally is strength of stances as oppossed to speed and balance of transition. also, while a stance can feel sound and strong while practicing alone, the application of it in two-person drill might give better feedback than stylized 'rules'.

I'll try to make it more clear of what I mean: lets say you were performing kata EXACTLY the way you would actually apply it with no regard for stylization (no thought as to things like: "ok feet shoulder-width apart and 45 degrees here, arch there, hips like this, etc")...what would it look like?
answer: it looks....'sloppy' and less posed....kinda like...well, like fighting.

an interesting long-term mental and physical self-learning exercise would be to figure out why.
Posted by: aoishi

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/20/06 01:04 PM

Ed, I think it's important to remember that the stances (especially the "awkward" ones) are themselves just the transitional step in between moves in a real situation. Isn't that right?

What I mean to say is that no one would suggest standing in cat stance during a fight. So the cat stance itself (if in a fight) would be itself a quickly transitioned stance immediately AFTER a hit.

Perhaps someone can restate what I mean a bit better.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/20/06 01:56 PM

about transitioning, I agree.

I currently have a different sense of what cat stance is good for hint , but I don't know or have seen everything...so I'm not saying you are wrong.

plus we individually change over time how we look at things. I used to use cat-stance as a defensive position. then I pretty much stopped using it, then used as a transition to launch an attack from an angle. then stopped thinking about it and may or may not have used it, then as an offensive. ... the way each and everyone looks at stuff changes over time. In my case, it's because I pretty much started with what I call 'middle school karate': the punching in shiko dachi, line drills up and down the dojo, punch/block kumite, kata, ineffective bunkai, and half-decent free-spar, etc. for a decade. Then changed to a focus on body mechanics for half a decade, then no change and just repitition on my own for a decade, then to a kata interpretation type study...

It would take forever doing something like that meandering path: better stick to what you are being shown for more efficient results.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/20/06 02:14 PM

Interesting thread...there is a lot for this newbie to think about. Interestingly, yesterday I took an 'Intro to Tai Chi' workshop. The focus was on moving/transitioning in Tai Chi. At one point, as I found myself transitioning through 'karate' stances (forward, moving backward and into cat stance) with circular and pushing arm movement, there was an 'aha' moment; a deeper appreciation for the closing moves in so many kata, for cat stance and the whole 'Chinese' link to Goju.
Posted by: aoishi

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/20/06 05:21 PM

Ed,

That pic is a hint, but not a true cat stance. It looks like his back leg is straight and almost locked in, rather than bent.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/20/06 06:18 PM

it was a hint for application, not form. if it's agreed that cat-stance is not a stance, but a transition...and if it's also agreed that most weight is on the back leg...then what does that mean the front leg might be doing?
http://www.selfdefensecentral.com/members/images/197e.jpg
workable application trumps nice looking form.

I'll give you another one, this one is more on topic:
you say kiba is different from naihanchi stance... is the difference in application something you can identify?

is this kiba dachi or naihanchi stance?
http://www.stanford.edu/group/kenpo/photo/KenpoFall2003SPF/Image010.jpg

is this shiko dachi or do you call it something else?
http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~ballou/hipthrow4.jpg

the differences are in form, not in application and therefore pointless to differentiate.

and what would you call this?
http://www.karate.org.yu/images/motobu4_2.jpg
half-way between shiko-dachi and zenkutsu ? oops, looks like they forgot to catorgorize that one in nihongo.

just some things to think about...not trying to start an argument....well, ok, maybe a little.
Posted by: aoishi

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/20/06 08:05 PM

Ed,

Okay, I'll give it a shot:

>then what does that mean the front leg might be doing?
http://www.selfdefensecentral.com/members/images/197e.jpg
workable application trumps nice looking form.

Yep, that looks pretty good. Also, like the elbow smash in Pinan 4, it would mean that the striker wouldn't be able to be pulled forward by the attacker (because of the weight on the back).

>I'll give you another one, this one is more on topic:
you say kiba is different from naihanchi stance... is the difference in application something you can identify?
is this kiba dachi or naihanchi stance?
http://www.stanford.edu/group/kenpo/photo/KenpoFall2003SPF/Image010.jpg

That looks more naihanchi-ish to me with his legs turned inwards to the center slightly.

>is this shiko dachi or do you call it something else?
http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~ballou/hipthrow4.jpg
the differences are in form, not in application and therefore pointless to differentiate.

I do not agree that the difference between kiba and naihanchi are only in form. In kiba or jigotai, you won't have the tension pulling in through the knees and you are more susceptible, at a bare minimum, to an inner leg sweep. In a good naihanchi stance, you would have a harder time sweeping my legs from the inside.
Also, this whole conversation has missed a major point of the naihanchi and that is muscle rigidity all over the body. Jaw, neck, traps, stomach, everything. I don't think jigotai stance involves a similar type of muscular tension. This is the same thing you see in uechi-ryu often with people breaking bats against themselves...

>and what would you call this?
http://www.karate.org.yu/images/motobu4_2.jpg
half-way between shiko-dachi and zenkutsu ? oops, looks like they forgot to catorgorize that one in nihongo.

Motobu's stance looks in-between to me there. The weight seems to a bit favored on his front leg, not 50/50.
Posted by: WuXing

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/20/06 08:13 PM

Won't get any argument here. I think it's pretty well agreed upon that advanced practice doesn't focus on static stances. Stances are about efficiently using your whole body for different purposes. It really doesn't matter if your feet are exactly straight, or exactly shoulder width, or two feet lengths apart, or whatever.
Like you say, the application dictates the stance. One thing that does make a difference in application between naihanchi stance and the jigotai dachi, or whatever you want to call it, is the way the feet point. Pointing forward or a little bit inwards, as in naihainchi, is good for keeping your balance when you're being pushed or pulled, or trying to push or pull someone. Pointing outwards at 45 degree angles is easier to lose your balance when being pushed or pulled. Feet splayed out may make it easier to get into a deeper stance and put the legs wider apart (though I don't know what application that has in fighting).
The exact position of the legs doesn't matter so much as where you place your center of balance. maybe practicing different stances in a particular way is meant to teach how to manipulate your center of balance. When you have internalised the applications, the details of the stance don't matter as much. Hopefully the stances being taught from the beginning are teaching good habits, not bad habits, and their applications in fighting are taught and drilled. (In other words, the sparring hopefully employs the same method of fighting that is supposedly being taught by the forms.)
Posted by: ANDY44

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/20/06 08:35 PM

and what would you call this?
http://www.karate.org.yu/images/motobu4_2.jpg
half-way between shiko-dachi and zenkutsu ? oops, looks like they forgot to catorgorize that one in nihongo


I think I would call this some one who can fight and isnt to pre occupied with the perfect stance.

Has any one seen an application for reverse cat stance?

I understood your explanation of ki or chi?

Still cant find any one with an effective wrist lock
that can put it on if i dont let them.

Me thinks I might have to go on one of wristtwisters seminars.
Posted by: ANDY44

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/20/06 09:03 PM

I think stances have a use as opposed to being only used as a transitional step.

Here is one example of multi uses of stances.


Use of a cat stance for an arm bar.

Interesting title although I think there is an eastern name for it some where.


A standing arm bar after an attacker has been put down, and the attacker is lying on his side.

The defender.
one leg (in a cat stance the leg with the least weight) will be close to the attackers back, the attackers arm/elbow is pushed across the defenders thigh by the defenders hand to effect an arm bar


To stop the attacker turning and to assist in leverage to the arm bar
The other knee of the defenders cat stance(the one with the most weigth on in a cat stance) will be on the opponents head./neck

The defender still has a free hand if he wishes to use it.

My kinda arm bar…. Nice.
Nice.

Posted by: Fordareals

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/20/06 09:15 PM

Quote:

A few answers to a few questions, but not too many. Have you ever played basketball and tried to shoot a set shot as opposed to a jump shot? When shooting a set shot you need to get lift without jumping and many people naturally stand with their feet pointed straight forward or slightly in to get that lift and power in their shot. Naihanchi follow the same principles. I'm not an expert in anatomy so I can't explain exactly why this posture gives us these specific results, but I do know it sets a certain level of tension in the muscles due to the position or structure. Because this tension is set by structure and not muscle tightening due to physical strength the energy is able to flow better through the body. This aids in toning and conditioning the lower body as well as creating potential for explosive power when released. This is key to developing power in Shorin Ryu karate. Again, for a lot of this stuff I have to show you.

Naihanchi has a sideways quality of focus to illustrate its ability to defend 180 degrees. However, if you add the elbow strikes to opponents behind you and a few other techs then it illustrates 360 degrees of combat effectiveness. Don't only look at the end of movements, the beginnings can be just as effective if not more. The first part of the step over in Naihanchi can be an ankle kick to an opponent advancing from directly in front. Remember, one of the keys to understanding kata reaction to attacks are no always obvious examine attacks coming from all angles and you will develop a new understanding of Shorin Ryu.

You can use techniques in Naihanchi to free your leg from a leg lock. As a palace guard the Bushi needed techniques to free themselves from restraints.

In terms of akwardness okinawan karate is as much a study of the culture of uchinanchu as it is of their fighting traditions. They move differently than we do in the west and some of this akwardness is a result of these cultural differences. Akwardness can also mean you ain't doing it right. For example dancing is a very natural way of moving the body in a rythmic fashion, however, so some it is very akward. But just because it is akward to some does not men it is an "unnatural movement." You've got to be able to dance to do karate right, its not tight and robotic, its loose and swift with good structure.

Oh, Brian, the best way to improve leg strength is squats, not stance work.




Very well put. Medula knows his Okinawan karate. For rising power in a static stance you use Naihanchi, whether the pigeon-toed variety or the feeling that your toes are turned in. For falling strength or to focus your weight downward in conjunction with gravity use of jigotai/shiko/pai sai dachi is best. It's just the most efficient use of body structure. Like the structure of an arch it supports weight better.

Stance training (tachi kata) is a good form of sinew exercise as well as muscle conditioning. It is integral to any good traditional art which is karate derived.

Later any stance/posture you are in is a good fighting stance. At first you have to train the mind, muscles and connective tissue to work in unconscious synergy. That's why it takes a good amount of time to truly be able to use your karate instinctively/reflexively. You build a solid structure by first laying a good foundation on strong ground, then carefully stacking one brick at a time.
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/20/06 09:25 PM

Hello Ed:



As to the "transitional" phase/nature of stances... some seem to suggest when speaking of these "transitions" that the stances themselves have no value or function, the goal merely being getting to position, 5, 6, 7, but how those positions are achieved, how you got there to some seems unimportant/unnecessary detail ... merely that they ~get there~ so to speak. The anthesis of stance being "structural hold positions" if you will.

But perhaps that was not your meaning... <worried look>
Lifetime study...I'm in give me....two more lifetimes, just two and maybe, maybe I'll get somewhere.

Jeff
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/20/06 09:30 PM

Hello Ken:

Tell us more of this toe power generation ???
Ignore details of the fingers and different things happen to the formation of the fist, how power is transmitted, etc.

Splaying the toes, gives more surface area with which to stabilize... is there more to this toe "power" business? It is not a verbage-language we possess...

Perhaps soon it shall be...

Jeff
Posted by: ANDY44

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/20/06 09:39 PM

This might seem a silly question but if I am attacked while outside or even inside than I will be wearing shoes?

well my toes should be in my shoes? Given this interesting scenario how would this effect the power of my punch?




Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/20/06 09:51 PM

Hello Medulant:

As to unnatural-ness depends entirely as you said how Neihanchi is done. Some turn the feet inward (pronate ?) massively! Others do not turn the feet inward at all. Some who DO turn inward press the knees actively (signifigantly) outward. And yet others do not.... All kinds of weird potential variations...

Lets take the pieces start with the toes... what do folks do and WHY do they do so... how do we explain those whys?What the toes do clearly effects what happens to all the bones & structures above them (ie knees, pelvis, femur, etc) Unable to disconnect the parts, it is a chain reaction...

How does toe inward create the "nuclear reaction", the massive power of which you speak?

Jeff
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/20/06 10:11 PM

Hello Andy:

Not a silly question at all.

Punching is NOT an arm only thing. If my foot, your foot is in contact with the floor, the power of my best punch is generated by the ability to transfer my weight, and speed EFFECTIVELY into you, via in this case my punch, right? If I am on the balls of my feet, up on my heels, or my tippee toes the blade edge, the inner edge... whatever the case might be... anything but the most grounded position, the weight and power of my punch will not tranfer with the MOST efficency possible. Some will go into the target, more will incorrectly transfer backward into me, the puncher.

I can be effective, maybe, but weighted correctly, (ie what I do specifically with my feet, toes) I can generate far more. Far more than random or haphazard, always more than incorrect mechanics... As such, if merely to add some minor perentage, its cheaply and ridiciliously easily added with no extra effort on my part...

Now as to why boether with toes at all its a great question, and a fair one I think. My generic answer would be I want to learn how to get at all the power I can figure out how to produce, in any manner I can think to produce it. So far, ok, right? You, me, anybody...

If so, and merely to figure out what the toes, feet COULD generate, might possibly produce, should do or not do, merits taking off the shoes and practicing without them. If shoeless I can figure out how to dorsiflex my toes (bend them up) I'm way ahead of the game. Adding fine muscle control... better nerve signals, better blood flow, etc. Plus feels good to peel them out of the blessed things, be shoe & sockless... ~...hello down there... are YOU a part of MY body that I practically cannot identify/never see....~ Learn to lift the toes up and I more efficently, more effectively strike with a much smaller surface area. Further lifted UP I potentially protect those tiny fragile bones, by hitting with the ball of the foot, rather than incorrectly smashing things with the toes (sic. jammed into shoes). So again, all minor stuff but every percentage, every speck counts, especially if its little or no effort to do so.

Stuffed into shoes I think we literally loose some degree of sensation in our feet, what IS and isn't touching the ground whereas barefoot, there is no doubt... awareness possibly lacking, but no doubt the sole of the foot is making contact...

That would be the ~basic idea~ in my view anyway...
Jeff
Posted by: ANDY44

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/20/06 10:36 PM

HI

Different schools of thought.

Different principles of generating power to a punch.


Cant see my little tootsies having an effect on my punching power.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/20/06 11:03 PM

you are focusing on form, which isn't wrong...I'm just saying you might think about it differently later. before stances were categorized and named, I believe the method of teaching structure, position and transition was called: "go something like this."
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/21/06 02:27 AM

Ronin, its actually not that complex. Although I don't have the knowledge of anatomy to explain it in technical terms the toes straight or slightly inward creates a natual tension all the way up to the pelvic girdle. Just stand up straight naturally and point your toes inward and you should be able to feel it. This tension is the source. As you drop your center and bend your knees they should not be pushed out nor collapsed in but straight over your toes. This helps open up the hips and makes your stance grounded. A senior American Matsubayashi guy I used to train with explained it to me as spiraling the muscles in your thigh around the bone, I never could understand how to do that. But in any case as your center drops the tension increases, however, the more you train it will not be an uncomfortable tension, just certain muscles with develop this tension which gives extremely powerful lift when straightening the knees or rising. When performing or using the kata this falling and then rising using this potential turned kinetic energy is barely noticeable. But when the timing is developed properly it is these principles which can help to produce devestating power and technique. When I played football we were told to point the toes forward when squatting. This technique helped develop good power to explode up. I believe the principles are the same, but one is overt and the other is subtle. This is not the entire story of naihanchi power generation, but an important piece which is very hard to use only words to describe.
Posted by: ken harding

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/21/06 06:27 AM

Badly expressed on my part perhaps. Toes turned in helps the root to the floor so aiding power generation. It's less toes and more foot position - turned in rather than splayed out that I find works better.
Posted by: ANDY44

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/21/06 07:29 AM

Badly expressed on my part perhaps. Toes turned in helps the root to the floor so aiding power generation. It's less toes and more foot position - turned in rather than splayed out that I find works better.

Hi

Yes, foot position in power generation, as in turning the front of my feet/shoes inwards automaticaly tenses my leg muscles.

I use this principle on most power techniques, from weigth training squats/front and back to getting the power for throws and strikes.



Intersting how certain goju ryu kata/bunkia/fighting techniques use this method for purely gripping/rooting to the floor but the actual power generation for upper body techniques comes from turning the upper body waist up?





Posted by: ANDY44

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/21/06 08:18 AM

Hi Hows things?

Punching is NOT an arm only thing. If my foot, your foot is in contact with the floor, the power of my best punch is generated by the ability to transfer my weight, and speed EFFECTIVELY into you, via in this case my punch, right?

I would be very care full about getting power in a punch by using the transfer of body weight. If any decent boxer was to see this then he would purposely punch as the other person punched.

His power and his opponents weight transfer during their punch would make his punching power twice what it normaly is.

There was a guy(name escapes me) who brought this up on another thread saying how hard boxers can punch and that a peron has to condition their selves to take these punches.
Which is impossible.

He had felt it by taking part in a competition. I don’t think he had realized some of the important considerations in boxing or any fist art.

If s person punches using weight transfer they would never be able to ride an incoming punch
Should the opponent connect before they do.


Power comes from muscle contraction and momentum/leverage not necessarily weight transfer.








If I am on the balls of my feet, up on my heels, or my tippee toes the blade edge, the inner edge... whatever the case might be... anything but the most grounded position, the weight and power of my punch will not tranfer with the MOST efficency possible.

I will have to nicely disagree on this one.
Yes power transfer can be high if a person is flat footed, It can also be be high if you are not flat footed.

Getting hit when a person is flat footed is nearly as bad as getting hit when they have transferred weight in to a punch.













Some will go into the target, more will incorrectly transfer backward into me, the puncher

Perhaps not if a persons power is generated through their(which brings us back to the foot facing in a stance part) foot/leg/hip/back/shoulder/arm all at the same time.and their balance is good
Regardless if they are flatfooted or not.


Thanks Andy
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/21/06 12:52 PM

Andy, using body weight to add power to a technique is an advanced principle in karate power generation. I have heard karate referred to as full body boxing where the entire body is used to strike including "weight transfer." It is about timing and using angles and closing the distance with tai sabaki, not just charging straight in. That is why in karate we are taught to interecept attacks and defend as we attack. To prevent just what you are worried about when using the full weight of the body. Do you practice goju? Striking with the full body using "weight transfer" is a Shorin principle, do they not practice this in Goju?
Posted by: ANDY44

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/21/06 01:36 PM

I studied shotokan,judo and boxing.

Years ago I boxed and fought full contact for a number of years as a heavy weight so It isnt what Im worried about its a fact.

IN my last post I was refering to just punching.

Just charging in and fighting isnt realy my forte.
.

I can think of some practical uses for bodyweigth transfer
so perhaps you could begin by explaining in a practical way what you understand as bodyweigth transfer in advanced
Karate study please?



The reason I am studying goju is specific,so I cant realy comment a lot on their methods.

If a person was to come up against a good oppenent and no matter how good the persons defence was a person at some point in a fight will get caught


Thanks Andy
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/21/06 02:55 PM

You are correct. That is why much of the fighting in karate is inside fighting or clinch fighting. In karate you learn to close the distance, fast. There are three main methods to do this. You either cover up as you come in, always at an angle and usually to the blind side. Or you tie up your opponents hands and you come in. Or strike your way in. You use this opportunity to strike as you come in using body weight. Once inside you control the head and or arms of your opponent as you attack with strikes and throws. While inside to set up techniques you use kazushi and break your opponents balance. The key is make your opponent more worried about regaining their balance and facing to fight you. Once you can accomplish this you can use all the weight shifts at a close distance you want to add power to your waza. Remeber, karate is not just a prolonged striking encounter. Once you get in you tie them up, then break their balance, then hit em and hurt em, then take em down and plant them on the ground HARD and make sure they don't get up.
Posted by: ANDY44

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/21/06 05:32 PM

HI

Yes you are once again totally correct ,but Unfortunately not all schools teach this particular way of fighting

I have found even some goju schools don’t have this knowledge, but that is not really my concern.

In goju I am studying Superempi

(just learning the moves at the moment no bunkia just how to do the kata)

But at the moment it is really Goju seiunchin and the relevant bunkia. I am getting to grips with

All that you just described is in this kata and application.

Including the fact that there are no hard strikes( But i do get tempted ooohhh the testosterone level rises ) or large hip application. The legs and hips are rooted
and the power comes from the waist.

A totally different way of doing things than I am used to doing but I can see where I do need this form of training.


Just a point

My maki wari/ heavy bag work out

Hard ware,

Myself,
Maki wari,
Heavy punch bag

Location any where away from Joe public.

My mind set, not the normal more the animal.

Music being played very loud as i train is

Jimmy Hendrix

Voodoo Chile
All along the watch tower

Edwin Starr

war

and any other testosterone lifting music I want to hear.


As opposed to a nice regimented quite instructor lead dojo

what a contrast!!!!!!!

Andy

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/21/06 06:16 PM

is it possible to derail for a sec? we were talking about neko ashi dach earlier, so I thought you might enjoy an explaination from another forum as to the application.

Quote:

I personally use Neko ashi dachi to strangle someone when they are on the ground. The lifting of the heel takes out the neck (imagine your feet on either side of the neck). Of course, I've hit them a few times before they go to the ground and I'm usually applying a lock through the wrist, elbow and shoulder at the same time.




Neko-ashi dachi is TH3 D34DLY !
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/21/06 06:34 PM

a little reengineering me thinks Ed, of course thats how much is these days, we do what we can I guess.

I actually trained a similair use for neko ashi dachi in a jujutsu dojo where the arm was between the legs and the angle 'locked' it all up, very nice/interesting study, totally unpractical in reality im sure though.........
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/21/06 06:51 PM

being impractical is how we learn to be practical. I think this is true with the whole concept of 'stances'. we learn the static stances, get them strong, move in them fast, etc. but I think there comes a time in training where forgetting about the geometry of stances and just using what works in practice is the goal. The basics are to build a sense for what the right footing is depending on what is going on. once people get locked into form for form's sake, progress is only in the direction of performance of the form. not a bad thing, but it kindof misses the point.
Posted by: ANDY44

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/21/06 10:29 PM

is it possible to derail for a sec? we were talking about neko ashi dach earlier, so I thought you might enjoy an explaination from another forum as to the application.


Lost me on that one ED.

The one I described is actualy a follow up after a throw.
If it would work in a self defence scenario I have no idea.
Have never been in a position to use it.




Posted by: ANDY44

Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi - 07/22/06 06:02 AM

Dont know Ed

But I am seeing a lot of good goju karate ka applying the technique I described in a different way but at the end of the day Most are finishing with the knee(potentialy) slammed on the attackers head and the other leg stretched out in a semi cat stance.Although i suppose it doesnt always have to be.

Just been looking at a whole lot of street fighting clips
would seem this technique would fit in to one situation.

Ones enough for me to see the application is valid.

There are other applications of the cat stance as is with the stance discussed at the start of this thread being used to throw an opponnent by one of the gracies in a apparently no holds barred match.

Or am I getting mixed up with point of this thread.