Karate Conjecture - Wankan

Actually its history before it came to Kosaku Matsumora is not of much interest for me. It is Kosaku's usage of the kata that interests me. From what I can gather Iha Kodatsu's only main teacher was Kosaku Matsumora and Nagamine claims to pass on his teachings intact. And actually knowing a kata's usage by the bodyguards can shed a lot of light on its usefullness and assist in knowing how to unfold its principles. I personally don't like reverse engineering which is looking at the movements and trying to come up with applications/principles. I have done it in the past and will in the future, but I like to know the principles/usage and find ways of applying its techniques using the principles as a guideline. From what I can tell the Matsubayashi Wankan/Okan is the closest to the original used by Kosaku Matsumora. This kata is about standing and fighting until either you or your opponent are finished. It is about fighting to the end, much like you would if you were defending your king. More later, I have to go now.

I have heard that Kodatsu Iha also learned from Oyadomari Koken.
Looking at the bodyguard theory...do you think it likely that the bodyguards all shared the styles they had learned with eachother? Why wouldn't wankan have been practiced by the other bodyguards, and passed on in shuri te? It's possible that it was Matsumora's personal style that he didn't share with the others, or that they didn't care to learn. I know Oyadomari was a Peichin. Was Matsumora also a Peichin?
Even if we knew for sure that this was the style of the king's bodyguards; how would we find out how the kata had been used by them without "reverse engineering" and a lot of speculation?

I never heard of Kodatsu studying with Oyadomari, but that is possible considering Oyadomari and Mastumora did know each other and train together and they were both "Tomari te" adepts. Yes, Kosaku Matsumora did hold the title of Pechin. I do, however, know that Kodatsu was Kosaku's "top student" so I believe he claimed Matsumora as his main instructor. In terms of Wankans usage I believe it was passed on thorough Kosaku Matsumora, to Iha Kodatsu, to Shoshin Nagamine, to some of his students, and then on to others. Although few, there are some Matsubayashi Ryu practitioners with amazing skill and knowledge of the style and some have this in depth knowledge that we seek. It is those who do not know that must reverse engineer. A lot of the older guys in Matsubayashi like Wax and Grant have some amazing knowledge which they do not always share these days from what I hear. I do infact believe that Wankan was Kodatsu's favorite kata or possibly the one he was most skilled at, or maybe a combination of the lessons taught by his previous teachers, or maybe a compilation skills he used in battle in desperate situations that he knew worked. I believe few teacher knew or taught Wankan because shuri teachers taught many more students than tomari and was more widely learned. However, knowing the purpose of certain kata is not that difficult to learn. Many are clear given proper instruction and a little research. Again Wankan has very few self defense techniques. This kata is for when ass meets the asphalt. This kata is to put people down in a most violent way. Like I said it is to stand and fight until no one is left standing. Again, if an enemy reached the king then all other tactics have obviously failed and there is only one recourse. Stand and fight until there is no one left because you are the last line of defense. There are some anti grappling techniques here but these are mainly to prevent tackles and they are immediately followed up with strikes(a hammerfist to rattle the brain, a hidden knee strike to get them off of you, and a punch if they stand up or another guy comes at you). With Wankan there is no question of its intent. This kata is for fighting to the end.

I found the book to be interesting, but largely a matter of spacious reasoning and unwarranted conjecture.

Many of the "facts" pesented in the book do not "check out" or are interperated in very "shaky" ways.

Some presented "facts" are even contradictory in nature.

(as just one example----the whole "nightfigting" idea--the book presents a situation in which they claim "proves" that Matsumore/Itosu was an expert at fighting at night--a useful skill for a bodyguard.
Problem is that in the example they use to "prove" it M/Itosu tells his students to "put your backs to the moon" more or less.
And that is plain foolish.
If your fighting in the dark you REALLY don't want to put yourself BETWEEN the strongest light source and your oppt.
It HIGHLIGHTS you against the light and makes it MUCH more easy to see you, AND it puts your oppt into deeper shadow, making it harder to see HIM.
Not a good plan.)

But specfically in this context--

Okinwan kings did NOT wear "crowns" at all.

(and neither did the Chinese--at least not in the western sense/meaning of the word "crown."

So there was not really any "crown" to protect.

Least I don't think there was---would be more than happy to change my opinion on crowns if someone has better info.

Interesting CXT, I would like to investigate the translation of Okan further. It may be a reference to crown as in crown of the head and therefore protecting the kings head. Or the king may have worn a special hat which would translate into what we know today in western culture as a crown. I am really not sure. Although none of this may be true at all, it sure is fun to think this stuff up. I believe examining all aspects of kata can shed the light on its usage. But one thing I know for sure, Wankan is very special in Matsubayashi, and when I find out exactly why I will let you guys know.

CXT, I looked and you may be wrong about the no crowns on okinawan kings thing. Check out this link.

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/arttheft/asia/japan/okinawa/okinawa.htm

Med

Thanks for the addtl info!!!!

Did not know that such things exsisted.

In looking at the picture, it still does not look much like a "crown" in the western sense.

More of a round hat---like chinese officals might have.

But its still listed as a "crown" so it look like they had them.

John Sells (paraphraseing here) lists Wankan as a common to Shorin styles with a Tomarite version passed down by Nakasone Seiyu--said to be Matsumoras own, yet looks nothing like the Shorin, Shiro, or Shotokan versions.

Sells likens the Tomari/Nakasone Seiyu kata to looking like parts of Suparinpei wih parts of Shisochin.

Sells also lists an alternative history from Hisataka Masuyuki.

That Wankan is "hold over" from the "old style" techniques of the karate practiced on Kudaka Island.

Don't know if I would look at Wankan in the same light that I would Kusanku or Suparinpei might be seen as a "top" kata.

But there is no reason to think it could not be either.

Good discussion!

There is too many interesting stories that I can read here, just what I can say is: there are still too many things to learn about kata.

Where can I get the book "The secrets of Shotokan Karate"?

Being an active member of a Shotokan Dojo I was just curious

You can get it on Amazon and the title is Shotokan's Secret: The Hidden Truth Behind Karate's Fighting Origins. I misstated the title in my other post. I highly recommend the book for its unique view on the history of karate, although I don't agree with his attempt to "fit" shotokan into karate's classical usage. Although there are some similarities to its classical roots some of his conclusions regarding techniques and usage don't fit for me, but a thought provoking work nonetheless.

Going by Pat McCarthy Wandan or Wankan exemplifies the physical characteristic of Tomari-te, Naha-te and Shuri-te proving a relationship of these old methods.

You learn intricate hand and leg movement used for close combat, kneeing and grappling. Obviously an all out fight.

My question is in the double bent wrist movement (dog stance) what is it interpet as? I've heard of everything from a simple double block to a neck break/wrench.

I'm not sure what technique you are referring to. Please explain in detain this "dog stance." I haven't seen McCarthy's version.

In this version the kata ends with a double bent wrist position in a deep Kokutsu-dachi the ending results looks likes the end of Saniseru or Suparempei except for the use kokutsu dachi instead of shiko-dachi. This position is called the dog stance in some Naha systems.

I take it thats not how your Wankan ends, I know how different version can be. For example look at Shuri's Seisan and Naha's Seisan. What are the bunkias for this move?

Application I know is to dislocate opponents elbow.
Or one hand pulling an arm and the other hitting chin / temple / throath / neck area.
Double block on simultanous 2 arm attack.
Maybe a bit far stretched, you can block an arm upward with koken (wrist) then quickly, with first two fingers strike to the eyes like an uraken. I 've seen Shinpo Matayoshi and Kenjuy Chinen do it. It comes from a Hakutsuru kata from Gokenki.

here's 1000 words:
http://www.karate.org.yu/images/shihokuken1.jpg

however, I prefer:
http://www.karate.org.yu/images/mantis%20bunkai.jpg

just went over this tonight (different setup than the pics, but you get the idea of the possibilities I assume).

Hi Neko,

The kata Wandaun (Wandan) shown by Pat McCarthy is not Wankan (which is a separate kata). John Sells sells (no pun) a video showing Wando I think, very much the same kata as Wandaun. To my eye, it does contain techniques from the major Okinawan karate styles, making me wonder its age?

It is very interesting, but outside those sources (McCarthy and Sells) I'm unsure where else it is done.

Victor you are right I was thrown both make reference to a king Wanduan "Ryukyu's Greatest fight king" obviously not the "protecting Kings the crown" my bad.

Thanks guys for the more info on use of the double crane technique.