Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku'

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/29/05 12:22 AM

The term 'koshi' is Japanese and basically translates to the connecting area of the upper and lower body; hips; waist; the area full width of the lower back.

The term 'gamaku' is an Okinawan term referring to the connecting muscles of the torso to the pelvis which dictate the speed/power allowing control of the coordination between the upper and lower body.

sounds like the same thing right? right, thats why many use the term koshi/gamaku interchangably. but when thought about in terms for our use (mechanics principals), the distinction becomes less subtle.

In an interesting article/interview :
http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pages/articleb2.htm
among lots of other topics of discussion which could be generated from this, I came across this quote:
Quote:

William Haff: So you use bo training to help you understand karate?


Toshihiro Oshiro: Yes, but this is common sense for any serious martial artist. I study to deepen my art, both weapons and karate. The old teachers used to do that too, I think. They would watch other styles or talk and practice with other instructors to add some new technique or maybe to just check their own practice But by comparing the two arts, it is possible to see how karate used to be or is supposed to bethere is a lot of karate lost in history, and I am very interested in that. Early in my karate training Nagamine Sensei talked about the difference between koshi and gamaku, your sides vs. your lower back, in making power and focus. It wasn't until I had studied bo deeply that I found what he was talking about.




wow...three topics of discussion in one quote, I thought. (1. weapons training to improve your empty-hand technique. 2.The 'old days' of cross-training. 3. sides vs. lower back, in making power and focus.)

but this thread is only about #3 ....

I believe he was making the distinction as a point of teaching to let your muscles lead your hips. use your side muscles to drive your hip...not your back muscles. The added weight and dynamics of holding a bo would illustrate/exagurate this principal nicely I would think.

All of this came about when I was looking for an answer as to why Matsubayashi has a slight lean forward in technique. At least now I have a theory...perhaps Nagamine was stressing the use of gamaku. by leaning slightly forward and nearly aligning your back angle with your rear leg angle, it forces a student to rotate hips with side muscles. perhaps later in training, the lean forward becomes less pronounced yet the principal remains intact with the experienced student.

The debate: what do you suppose Nagamine was talking about as it relates to koshi vs gamaku?
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/29/05 11:21 AM

I really don't know about what Nagamine meant. I am curious about the sides vs. back for power generation. I always try to generate power "from the floor up". So I guess I would fall into the "back" power generation category, although I have never really studied myself in that manner.

I guess I am not seeing the benefit of using your "side" (lats? obliques? intercostals?) muscles over your back muscles. Isn't that going to limit power generation somewhat? How is this typically done in karate styles?
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/29/05 12:22 PM

I believe a teaching a "lean" forward in front stance is not a proper understanding of the principles of Matsubayashi. One of the keys to striking in Matsubayashi is sinking or sitting down on techniques. In front stance when you "sink" your pelvis gurdle is tilted forward slightly. For proper alignment of the spine relative the the hip gurdle there appears to be a "lean", but due to the physics of the sinking this alignment requires a slight "lean." Simply leaning without sinking properly is improper technique. As far as koshi and gamaku in karate you move with your hara. Movement with hara requires development of gamaku through movement of the koshi. Once the gamaku is developed sufficiently movement is accomplished using gamaku and any movement of the koshi is a byproduct of using gamaku.
Posted by: bo-ken

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/29/05 01:10 PM

I believe that a strike starts at the ground. To hit hard you have to have an overall strong body. If the power comes from your sides then you have to have strong sides. You shouldn't worry about making power come from one or the other. You should instead strive to have your body working towards one goal hitting hard. All of your body works together.
Posted by: WuXing

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/29/05 01:22 PM

I'm not sure...Both those muscle groups work together to move the waist, dont' they? the sides and the back. I was never taught a lean in any techniques. When you say the same angle as the rear leg, you must mean in natural stance, I would guess. I have always practiced with back straight, both in karate and in bo jutsu.

In naihanchi, there is definately no leaning. The power comes from the rotation of the hips along with the rooted stance. Naihanchi is generally viewed as the foundation for shorin ryu, its stance-work and power generation.
With that in mind, I'm not sure what Nagamine sensei might have been talking about in that quote. The article doesn't really go any further into detail about it, about which one should be emphasized, if any.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/29/05 01:24 PM

I think you've reworded it more clearly. thanks.

I don't know the technical word for Matsubayashi's slight 'lean' as you detailed....so I use the word 'lean'. Styles have different sinking methods and therefore different alignments. So you are saying that this 'leaned sinking' is a characteristic of the fighting style of Matsubayashi and not just it's training/teaching strategy towards a common OMA goal? because the 'lean' seems less pronounced and less noticable as you see higher rank.

I purposely didn't mention the concept of 'hara'. I wanted to isolate the principals between side vs back hip power gen. but I agree, 'hara' always leads.

thanks,
-Ed
Posted by: harlan

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/29/05 01:25 PM

Would this distinction of muscle groups/area fall into a discussion of 'iron shirt' and 'kung li' exercises?
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/29/05 01:29 PM

I was under the impression that "iron shirt" training was more conditioning oriented, as opposed to something trained to generate striking power.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/29/05 01:31 PM

I'm sure you are correct.
Posted by: WuXing

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/29/05 01:32 PM

that's a great description, medulanet. thanks for clarifying that
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/29/05 01:37 PM

Ed,

On the entire issue of 'koshi', 'gamaku', 'hara' and such, the concepts can be discussed separately, but in use the entire body is a unit. I think their relevance depends on the structure of the training program to try and isolate areas for specific training than it does that they can function independtly.

There are different alignment structurs for different systems and likely different approachs for different levels of training.

There is nothing inherently wrong with having beginning training using different structures than advanced training.

A different answer is that of Wu Tai Chi Chaun. The teaching form first studied uses larger and perhaps more complex technique to work on the body principles, but the fast form, with the same over all structure, uses smaller movement prniciples with the suggestion the larger training built the interior technique for the smaller technique.

Different arts still trying to find similar answers.
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/29/05 01:39 PM

BTW it is not possible to get a more inherently complex and exotic discussion than this to end a year.

Congrats that some of us can speak to each other. Now if I only knew what I mean I'd make some progress.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/29/05 02:01 PM

I completely agree. I'm not saying anything is bad...

before the creation of this thread, I was asked 'whats with the leaning?' from non-matsubayashi practioner(s)...and I couldn't answer. I think we've agreed that the slight lean is for power generation.

now it's a question of whether the lean is a training tool towards a common goal (for learning the feeling of proper gamaku/koshi, hip power/mechanics). or is the 'sinking lean' itself a fighting principal.

many times (almost all classes), at least once during practice the sensei will have the class 'overexaggurate' a particular movement in order for your body/mind to 'feel' it.

so my question is in advanced Matsubayashi...does it just 'feel' like you are leaning forward, or do you actually lean forward?

I realize at this stage in my training I'm actually taught to physically lean-sink. but I'm curious if this is gradually replaced with more the 'feeling' of that exaguration?

see, I think of all systems of Karate as ways to learn the same thing. The 'sink-leaning' method vs the 'rooting and centering' of goju - in the end both have accomplished a common goal...in this case the efficient coordination between upper and lower body.

thanks for the thoughts.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/29/05 02:05 PM

scarry enough...I know exactly what you meant. my problem isn't understanding concepts - my problem is putting them into practice!
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/29/05 03:24 PM

In advanced practice there is no lean, nor is there any feeling of a lean, only a feeling of being centered and "sunk in." Due to the structure of the stance when one sinks it may only "appear" to be a lean when the spine is acutally perpendicular to the pelvis. Which is tilted slightly when sinking. There is a fine line between having a straight back and your power being "deadlocked." There is always a projection of the hara in a way, which is another way of saying there is always a potential for movement even in stillness. At advanced levels the lean detected is that potential. Very difficult to explain, let alone do properly. Very few can and do.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/29/05 03:43 PM

very interesting post this,

Im not going to represent any one style with my views, as im losing faith in 'different' styles, systems maybee but we each have our own 'style' after a few years training.

when I started I was taught the standard double hip, pull back, drive forward. big movement. (think reverse punch is best)

then i progressed to the triple hip, pull back, drive forward, pull back. Basically the whip principle. it became much smaller movement, far more 'impact'.

then I incorporated tilting the pelvis forward, making the spine straight and 'sinking', with slightly bent knees. which I now believe is proberly the start, during and finish position, with hips square ish.

Now thats alot going on in reality and all I can say is that the power generation method is alot smaller than when i started and relies on correct isolated muscle tension and relaxation as well as body structure.

Re the off balance theory, im working on that and am on the fence, so I train as i was taught which is keeping a good centre and moving with from the hara,

However my understanding is that zenkutsu dachi is 'front leaning stance' im fairly confident that small leans are involved and stances just stop us falling over, this puts a whole new aspect into body movement and power generation.

what also supports the 'lean' method is whenever I naturally try to put force or energy into something, think pushing or dragging then I lean into or away from it and use my body weight, again an interesting slant on karate mechanics, this maybee a significant difference between budo and bujutsu if you catch my drift.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/29/05 04:50 PM

thats cool and interesting...but we are drifting....which is ok, just hope we don't get lost

I think my question has been covered. In comparrison, goju has mostly a vertical center of gravity...in order to do this, goju stances 'tuck in the buttocks' - which in effect, aligns the top and bottom body angles. (straight up and down)

Matsubayashi has a slight tilt forward (hara projection is at a front angle, almost as an invisible 3rd leg)...this no doubt gives a better weight transfer into the target, but maybe at the expense of something else...maybe not. there isn't much linear retreating philosophy in Karate (except with off-balancing), so why not take advantage of that fact.
forward tilt seems like a sound principal, the reason it doesn't look like it makes sense is because I might be looking at it from the logic of sparring principals. When sport sparring, you want to be able to spring in any direction. In self-defense, you need forward and forward angles. Goju is about holding your ground and attacking in place or to the side - let the attacker come into your space. There is an exception in goju and that is the notion of off-balancing an opponent by stepping back and at back angles.

Matsubayashi Ryu might be more 'proactive', hence the hip-tilt towards the line of attack.

In any event, whichever particular flavor and which angle they have you position your hips...there are some principals in all OMA's which hold true reguarding this topic:
* upper and lower torso need to be aligned.
* The 'will' to move originates from your hara. also acts as an invisible 3rd point of contact...in gymnastics, this is your center of gravity and centrifigal center when in motion.
* gamaku (driven or rather 'triggered' by hara) controls the speed and force of koshi (hip twist).


I'm thinking out loud...sorry to ramble.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/29/05 05:47 PM

my apologies for going off on a little tangent Ed, fair point.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/29/05 06:44 PM

no...it's good. sometimes to only way to see something is by not looking directly at it. which is what victor was warning me of breaking things up into parts too much. -I have a habit of breaking problems up into smaller peices....problem is, sometimes I just end up with a broken answer.
Posted by: aoishi

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/29/05 08:01 PM

Do you think that Gamaku and Fa-jing are related in some way, Ed?
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/29/05 08:36 PM

If I'm not mistaken, I imagine fa-jing as internal and gamaku as external. I don't think they contradict each other. I've never been taught in terms of fa-jing...the equivalent? I'm familiar with is 'kime' or is fa-jing more like 'Hakkei'?

If thats wrong, could you explain fa-jing? thanks.
Posted by: aoishi

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/30/05 12:54 AM

Sorry, I have nothing to add, I was just fishing...
Posted by: WuXing

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/30/05 07:16 AM

fa jing is "explosive power". It would be what results from proper application of all the concepts you've been discussing, using the whole body as a unit.
Posted by: JohnL

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/30/05 08:41 AM

Hey Ed

Well, that'll teach you to show people video's, won't it!

I just want to comment on your quote below, but will probably dfrift into a couple of other points you made.

Quote:



I think my question has been covered. In comparrison, goju has mostly a vertical center of gravity...in order to do this, goju stances 'tuck in the buttocks' - which in effect, aligns the top and bottom body angles. (straight up and down)

Matsubayashi has a slight tilt forward (hara projection is at a front angle, almost as an invisible 3rd leg)...this no doubt gives a better weight transfer into the target, but maybe at the expense of something else...maybe not. there isn't much linear retreating philosophy in Karate (except with off-balancing), so why not take advantage of that fact.
forward tilt seems like a sound principal, the reason it doesn't look like it makes sense is because I might be looking at it from the logic of sparring principals. When sport sparring, you want to be able to spring in any direction. In self-defense, you need forward and forward angles. Goju is about holding your ground and attacking in place or to the side - let the attacker come into your space.




Let's start with the basic "lean" of the style. I don't accept Medulant's theory that it doesn't exist in advanced practitioners. Look at photo's and video's of the senior representatives of the style. They lean. That's OK, let's just not pretend it's not there.

I don't accept that there is a difference between the SD and sparring philosophy's. They both have the same requirement, in that you put your body in a position from which it can most effectively move in any desired direction. To say we don't go back, is fundamentally flawed. As such, I believe leaning forward, while it MAY have an advantage in some way (Don't know what yet) it does put you in a poor position to move. In addition it restricts your kicking ability in the direction that you are striking, requiring a repositioning to a more central body position before being able to kick effectively.

Whether you use your back or side muscles, I don't know. I tend to think of them as a complimentary unit that work together. Kind of like a soccer team with forwards, a midfield and defence. They work as a unit to be effective. In the video I saw of you, I believe you had an over emphasis on the upper torso muscles at the expense of the lower muscles. This gave the impression of power generation from higher up than I believe is desirable. (Kind of like a soccer team with great forwars, but who suck at the back. Something Arsenal could never be accused of!)

Why the lean?

I'm a great believer that karate is an individual thing. A master has over the years developed his own way of doing things that work for him. Fine, I have no problem with that. It's when the students then try to delve into depth to explain why it's the way it is that you start to run into trouble. It may have been that the guy originally trained with people smaller than him and didn't need to go backwards as he felt comfortable overpowering them in a forward direction. Maybe he didn't worry about kicking because he sucked at it anyway. Who know's!

I suggest that rather than looking at it as style based element, look at basic mechanics and see what works for you.

(Best topic in a while though)
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 12/30/05 10:42 AM

Thank-you John... I don't always like to hear it, but honesty thru logic is something to appreciate. ... even when the logic is flawed.

Quote:

Well, that'll teach you to show people video's, won't it!


yes it will, thats why I'll probably use it again...more fun than typing and reading text.

I'll take the tone of assuming you are sometimes correct.

Quote:

Let's start with the basic "lean" of the style. I don't accept Medulant's theory that it doesn't exist in advanced practitioners. Look at photo's and video's of the senior representatives of the style. They lean. That's OK, let's just not pretend it's not there.


I'm only looking at what I'm taught, by who they were taught by, and by who 'developed' the style...whether that style (as it relates to this thread) is a learning method or fighting method I have yet to determine. In the meantime, I'm just accepting (right or wrong, it's the only way to learn).

BTW - I just dusted of my copy of the only book in existence which shows high-speed camera frames of Ueshiro performing Fukyugata-san full-speed. looking closer with this topic in mind, he's not leaning at all- the line from head to heal is more of a forward arc. Interesting. He looks very well 'sunk'. now I look at Nagamine's book, he didn't have this filmed at high-speed - he posed for each frame...even so, it's not a forward lean, it's a less pronounced arc.
It could very well be that I'm being taught Matsubayashi power generation incorrectly. Thats for me to decide. but the evidence 'leans' me to medulant's description. (no pun intended).

Quote:

I don't accept that there is a difference between the SD and sparring philosophy's.



Thats just rediculous. objective A: end conflict as soon as possible. vs. objective B: score the most points in x time with restriction to a subset of techniques. If both sparring fighters attack as they would for SD, it would be broken up as a clash since judges can't see the points being scored.

Quote:

Whether you use your back or side muscles, I don't know. I tend to think of them as a complimentary unit that work together.


no doubt, but which ones drive the others is the question.

Quote:

In the video I saw of you, I believe you had an over emphasis on the upper torso muscles at the expense of the lower muscles. This gave the impression of power generation from higher up than I believe is desirable.


thats fair...I'm taking a look at it and will correct where I can/should.

I agree that it's not wise to follow someone else's fighting style to the letter. but there has to initially be a process of 'mimicing' first, before incorporating the style into your body. This is my first year of Nagamine's style as interpreted by Ueshiro through his student Scaglione who in turn taught the two sensei that I have access (who also have kyu-level training with Mr. Brooks of this site). Lots of changing hands...sure it's possible things get lost in translation. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt while trying to keep an open mind...if that makes sense.

I gotta go work on my legs now....
Thanks,
-Ed
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 01/04/06 08:47 PM

just wanted to update my view on this. some additional research and asking around, I'm now convinced that I was wrong about the Matsubayashi 'lean', and even wrong to refer to it as a lean.

The kata Fukyugata-San in my video is a good example of someone doing it wrong.

It's not even referred to as a 'lean' but more of a sinking slightly forward just as most of you were saying. I'll work on those two things: forward sinking and whole body power generation. ...keeping in mind what the hips are doing.

...thanks everyone for your input as I try to figure out how this system works. -Ed
Posted by: aoishi

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 01/04/06 09:06 PM

Ed,
I would enjoy meeting you someday. Why don't you come to the dojo sometime and work out with us. I'm sure Brooks-sensei wouldn't mind if you asked. In fact, why not just join our dojo
I appreciate your deep thinking on these issues and I think our sensei would beable to shed so much light on these and other issues.

-Jeremy
Posted by: butterfly

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 01/04/06 11:43 PM

Ed,

I am not a product of Okinawan karate, but what if I told you I was always taught to lean/tilt the torso about 10 degrees forward while sinking into most forward facing fighting stances as well as baski kihon practice from Sanchin-dachi?

-B
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 01/05/06 01:09 AM

well...if you told me that, then I'd get confused...good thing you weren't actually saying it. lol kidding. a slight lean forward might appear when it makes sense, but what I'm doing is, as John suggested, using too much upper body - and I don't think it's my creeky knees...my vertical balance is top heavy. I think the lean is causing this...so the (Goju and ShitouRyu) way I was taught about sinking into stance seems valid. It's funny, when I incorporate a goju horse-stance (which is pretty much the same) and Tani-ha type zenkutsu into this kata, people watching it say - yes! now THAT looks more like Matsubayashi. lol

The Shizentai dachi was new for me when I started MB. completely different from sanchin-dachi. I spent some time working on it, but I think a slight arc when stepping helps koshi/gamaku. If I'm not mistaken, a slight arc when 'shuri-stepping' is how they did it in the old days of Shorin Ryu. It does feel more versitile (and more natural for a goju-stepper) with that slight modification. hardly noticable when watching (although some of you caught it) but it feels much more comfortable for me.

so Brad, there are instances maybe a forward lean makes sense....but so far, the most that appears in Okinawan Karate is just my untrained eye's appearence of a lean - it's a forward arcing sink. I looked at some pro boxing photos...with exception of the heel lifting up, the arc looks similar on impact...I was stunned because my hollywood impression of a 'boxing punch' was the Rocky movies - plus I was always being told on the Army boxing team: 'lean into the punch, lean into the punch, get your weight in there, ya gaddam karottyka' lol...what they meant to say was sink into the punch and let your weight be pushed forward with your rear ball of foot. also I notice in boxing, the hip and shoulders turn with different timing than Karate. boxing seems to have the hip follow the hand (follow-thru). karate has the hip leading the hand (gamaku). whats your take on that?

Jeremy: thanks, would be interesting. lets set something up offline (PM). ever find out about the kata order?

-Ed
Posted by: butterfly

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 01/05/06 01:26 AM

Quote:

also I notice in boxing, the hip and shoulders turn with different timing than Karate. boxing seems to have the hip follow the hand (follow-thru). karate has the hip leading the hand (gamaku). whats your take on that?





I am not sure if that is quite true. I have noted occasionally what you have listed per timing of the hip rotation. However, I think what some folk see in some boxing (as in sport karate) is the lack of hip rotation so that full committal to the strike is not present. This means you have speed for multiple strikes since the body is not in each punch, but at the expense of putting the body completely behind each strike for hard impact. Remember that aspect of sport that requires points over power delivery for attempting to down the opponent. Different paradigm for applying techniques.

However, look at a good power shot...no matter the style or sporting context... it follows, like dominoes... or that wave-style break dancing prevalent in the 80's. Starts with the feet or connection to the ground, up throught the hips into the torso, shoulder, and then in the arm and fist. It's the fluid translation of this power that matters, not the style.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 01/05/06 01:34 AM

Quote:

However, look at a good power shot...no matter the style or sporting context... it follows, like dominoes... or that wave-style break dancing prevalent in the 80's. Starts with the feet or connection to the ground, up throught the hips into the torso, shoulder, and then in the arm and fist. It's the fluid translation of this power that matters, not the style.





*applause*

(makes no reference to other threads whatsoever.)

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 01/05/06 02:12 AM

hard to know what you are saying...lets try it this way, as a reference point (I'm not advocating these illustrations are correct for maximum power, in fact, I know they are not )
http://esnips.com/web/EdMorrissbagwork

bag2.wmv - simple no step reverse punch...about 3/4 power.
1st punch with leg locked on impact and heel down.
2nd punch with rear leg bent slightly and heel up a bit.

bag1.wmv - one step elbow and one step natural stance (shizentai-dachi)
elbow - I overrotated/exaggurated the hips, but you can see how the hips lead the strike.
step punch - tried to whip or wave or whatever it's called in 2 directions. by the vertical plane (notice again the hip-lead creating a forward arc) then in the horizontal plane with the hips/gamaku.

strikes were with a 3/4 twist fist, if that matters to anyone. I added slo-mo for your convienence...wasn't that jolly nice of me?

this is different power generation than what I'm used to...remember, I'm trying to figure out the dynamics for Shorin Ryu or MB if there is a difference. and I am actually thinking about this in terms of style...since it has to kind of fit the fighting philosophy of what I'm studying....or does it? anyway, thats what I'm finding out.

thanks
Posted by: WuXing

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 01/05/06 08:25 AM

Not bad, Ed
Check out this site, if you haven't already. I believe these are very good examples of what matsubayashi ryu should look like. Notice the way every technique is whipped from the hips.

http://www.matsubayashi-ryu.net/indexen.html
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 01/05/06 09:45 AM

yes, I've seen his videos. and have asked opinions of it here before and I had started a thread about it. most of the thread was trashed by the upgrade, but here is whats left of it:
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/230900/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

The performer of the kata even chimed in his opinion of everyone's opinion which was very cool and puts things in perspective. damn...wish we still had that thread.

anyway, thanks the reminder.
Posted by: aoishi

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 01/05/06 11:03 AM

It's funny that you say that all the techniques are whipped from the hip because my impression upon watching them was that there was less use of koshi than in the dojo where I practice (albeit more than I see in some of the more "Japanese" styles). Still, I was impressed by his speed and by some of the "hidden" applications I think I saw in his practice.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 01/05/06 11:24 AM

just to be clear, I didn't say that...that was wuxing's opinion.
Posted by: aoishi

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 01/05/06 11:34 AM

Yep, got it. I just posted in the wrong place.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 01/05/06 04:41 PM

you posted in the right place...but in response to the wrong person. anyway...about your impression of Mr. Sindt's videos, maybe when you get more than 2 years of training, you'll see it differently?
Posted by: aoishi

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 01/05/06 05:08 PM

You are undoubtedly correct that in 2 more years of training I will see everything differently, I'm sure.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 01/05/06 05:14 PM

wasn't trying to be dismissive, but just thought the demonstrator of those vids deserved the benefit of the doubt from noobs like us.
Posted by: onenall

Re: Principals: 'koshi' and 'gamaku' - 01/17/06 05:44 PM

Kiyoshi Arakaki has a book called "Secrets of Okinawan Karate" that explains (the best explanation I have seen yet) of the "gamaku" concept and how to use it for striking. Many chinese martial arts stylists use a whipping motion generated from the legs and spine...I believe this is part of the secret of karate's power as well. Don't take my word for it, check out Kiyoshi Arakaki's book. It is well worth the price, in my humble opinion.