karate blocks
every person that has seen or been in a street fight (and here in London near pubs on friday, saturday there are plenty) would agree with me that the uchi/soto/shuto uke are very slow for that type of blow. So how do u make sense of this blocks in the kata and most of all with a fist clenched which slower even more the execution....
It is a bit of a provocation (I teach and practice okinawan karate)
Posted by: Neko456
Re: karate blocks - 12/23/05 12:28 PM
I reality just the blocking technique its really done as economically as a boxer or Kali mans bumping the incoming strike off course from your guarded position, its just a flick of a wrist. The entire blocking motion taught in MAs or Karate you are doing a series of things you are covering and counter/striking and deflecting in that one technique.
I won't go any futher because obviously your instructor hasn't informed you of this yet, this just a 1 up. But really fighting is fighting weather its Jujitsu, Kali, Kung-fu, Karate, Thai-boxing, boxing or brawling some maybe more refined, each can be a solid method of self defense. If studied indept. Step back and look at whats going on.
Using that long wind up to block a strike is not feasible. But to strike the body and break the arm now its makes more sense.
Posted by: traq
Re: karate blocks - 12/23/05 12:35 PM
practice the whole block so you can understand it. in a fight, use the movement you need.
In addition, you should be shifting your body away from the strike, so the block is really intended to take control of the opponent's strike, not to literally "block."
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 12/23/05 12:36 PM
actually I have always thought that instead were strikes on joints or targets or kansetsu waza and that the parry are the real blocks. The hand in hikite is the parry/grabby block and the rest are techniques
Well I don't know I think they are fast enough. In my old school of Shotokan we would see the block as a strike which would make every thing a strike. That should give the person the action speed instead of reaction speed. Maybe they have by fist to remember the blocks are strikes. Maybe someone else can give u a better anwser.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: karate blocks - 12/23/05 01:22 PM
You are right the parry is a block in this sequence but blocking can come in alot of forms. Such as in the cross body guard used in Karate & boxing (and others fighting system) using these two in this comparison. Though used to parry/trap punches kicks and knee in Karate. Boxers will use a shoulder parry and follow with a lead hook or whatever and In Karate I use the same shoulder or forearm, (sometmes shin) to deflect the strike/kick and strike and grab the throat and groin, following into a sweep and throw. Or counter with a series of strikes, the point is to flow don't think 1 block then 2-strike, they appear as 1 and definitely don't think Kata wrapup and block, unless you gonna use the body roll techinque its starts just like a loose or reverse gedan bari wrap up even in Boxing, Silat or Gung-fu its looks the same if you look know what to look for. The thing is you got know what you looking for its not going to be there long. Because it has to flow with effort of fight.
Its Kata techniques but its alive and flowing! This to the poster some you other guys know this stuff.
Fighting is fighting the same tools are there its the rules of a system that limits the possibilites. Karare has very few limits, that I've seen.
Posted by: Trefathell
Re: karate blocks - 12/23/05 03:24 PM
Quote:
every person that has seen or been in a street fight (and here in London near pubs on friday, saturday there are plenty) would agree with me that the uchi/soto/shuto uke are very slow for that type of blow. So how do u make sense of this blocks in the kata and most of all with a fist clenched which slower even more the execution....
It is a bit of a provocation (I teach and practice okinawan karate)
This is a good question. It depends which system you adhere to. To some the idea of blocking is the same as striking, i.e. you attack the limb while protecting yourself. But to other forms of karate there is an opposite approach. Speaking for my own system (Wado ryu) because it has its roots in jujutsu, any blocking is part of an attacking move, in that the block happens on its way to a strike, almost as an incidental move. Obviously this is all part of a body movement that involves evasion.
I hope that is useful.
Trefathell
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: karate blocks - 12/23/05 08:21 PM
I also like to think when making a fist that im not always striking,
puts a whole world of pain for the attacker when you think about gedan barai...................
Posted by: traq
Re: karate blocks - 12/24/05 11:40 AM
yea, blocks should hurt the guy too, which would make them strikes. there's a story my sensei tells about a guy who used to train at our school (decades ago) who noone wanted to sparr with, because when you kicked at him he punched your foot.
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 12/24/05 11:54 AM
what I wanted to say (and i think i state the obvious) is that there is a big difference between karate and functional karate. If u see- or being in- a fight in the street you would see that the blocks comes very natural and the defender do not need any training there are simple parry that come natural. I believe that the okinawans could not be bothered to show us in their katas blocks so slow like that ones ( that believe me never will work with swings fast and strong as in the street-remember that in the street there is not only one swings but fast combinations of them). I think they are all finally techniques after blocks. A confirm of this thesis can be found in one of the best realistic karate instructor of today KUBOTA that believes that the traditional age uke etc do not work for round punches simple to fast to stop.
So look the kata and go deep (this is my motto)
Posted by: BruceJW
Re: karate blocks - 12/24/05 04:25 PM
Quote:
yea, blocks should hurt the guy too, which would make them strikes. there's a story my sensei tells about a guy who used to train at our school (decades ago) who noone wanted to sparr with, because when you kicked at him he punched your foot.
umm, in the real world, you won't have time to put the power into a block to hurt the guy. When you train, while you improve your form etc, the power must be there. But in the street, I think your blocks will be more instinctive, and will tend to rely on your follow up.
Posted by: MikoReklaw
Re: karate blocks - 12/24/05 09:28 PM
Well, personally, I see the training of the "slower" blocks a type of mental programming. You do them over and over and over again, in 'perfect' form, to that in the time of need, your reflexive action are very close to the form you trained it to be. It ingrains general shape that comes closer and closer to the true form of the block as time passes.
Your body's memory will use what it knows, and will do so faster than anyone can imagine. Mushin. It just happens. It may not be the cleanest block, but as long as it works....why not?
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: karate blocks - 12/25/05 11:31 AM
see your point, but I was thinking more about the hand that doesnt 'block', think of it as a grab and pull.....ouch
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 12/25/05 12:52 PM
Quote:
see your point, but I was thinking more about the hand that doesnt 'block', think of it as a grab and pull.....ouch
PRECISELY..... in a fight parry with open hand are the realistic defence, what seem blocks are attacks after that u parried/deviated or trapped the limb
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate blocks - 12/27/05 06:31 AM
So,basically you started this thread to see if people agreed with your way of training blocks without stating which way that was from the beginning?
Posted by: Neko456
Re: karate blocks - 12/27/05 11:28 AM
Thats one way to block and probably the fastest, but the close hand blocks are feasiable if done properly without the wrap up unless you are wanting to do something else beside just block.
The thing is don't get caught up in blocking, I believe in a scuffle if you block more then 3-4 times in a roll you are fighting too defensively and waiting for one to land. The highest level of defense is no block just intercept his intention and fire.
One of my favorite moves is to stun, (its possible to grab incoming but its safer ths way) then grab pulling and pushing him off balance into strikes and kicks, leading into a throw or sweep. I don't do too many blocks just to stop (unless totally surprised) the attacking limbs. I was taught whenever a limb leaves the guard theres an opening.
But I don't let that stop me from attacking, it can be a strong defense (not in court but definitely in a fight).
Quote:
what I wanted to say (and i think i state the obvious) is that there is a big difference between karate and functional karate. If u see- or being in- a fight in the street you would see that the blocks comes very natural and the defender do not need any training there are simple parry that come natural.
Deltaburke69,It's not a block per se,In other words,you're not just executing a forearm block,You are delivering a hammer smash to the lower to mid part of the arm,Or the bicep,Depending on the distance &/or the posture of the attacker.
What you think might be a just side block,Is in reality a backfist strike to the lower to mid part of the arm, or bicep depending on the distance or the posture of the attacker.
What you need to understand, is that you defense & your attack are one in the same.
Quote:
I believe that the okinawans could not be bothered to show us in their katas blocks so slow like that ones ( that believe me never will work with swings fast and strong as in the street-remember that in the street there is not only one swings but fast combinations of them).
[It seems that your lack of clarity,& your lack of knowledge,Go hand in hand
Like Mr Miyagi say "best block, no be there"
Like my sensei once say "tradional blocks really are a load of bo**ocks, but I suppose depending if things happen in the right way at the right time they're pretty good, but it depends on your training, and no matter how much you train, however you feel, when the time comes, thats when you'll do your best stuff, when it all natural and simultainius"
Like sensei quotes "Moninmuso, this means the ability to act calmly and even in the face of danger, it is the highest accord with existence when a mans word and his actions are simultaniously one and the same"
I know so many quotes I risk being one those people who only copy what others say rather than think of there own stuff but I got a few of my own any way so hopfully that kicks that out the way.
Posted by: Subedei
Re: karate blocks - 12/27/05 04:55 PM
Well, we have evidence of "traditional blocks" being used as far back as ancient greece. Why would they have persisted for so long in so many places without any chance to the technique whatsoever if they didn't work?
Posted by: Neko456
Re: karate blocks - 12/27/05 05:07 PM
Like my sensei once say "tradional blocks really are a load of bo**ocks
If it works in other systems why does it not work for him. A block a block in almost any form of fighting. I like to compare this to basic art like boxing when a guy throws a jab, and you pat it with your front or back hand is it not the same motion as a palm parry or slap block. Sometimes when a boxer blocks/parries a strong jab to body, it turns the opponent isn't that near the same motion as the downward block. The key is you must immeadiate mount a offense not freeze for a photo.
If it works in other fighting and not for him, where does the problem lie. It lies in the preparation and realism. If you train real you will fight real.
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 12/28/05 05:12 AM
Hey chill out man!
Actually we are saying the same thing that in reality what appears to be blocks in the kata are strike techniques.As long as my knowledge........
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 12/28/05 05:17 AM
nope just wanted to know how many people really believed that in a fight in the street for instance Jodan uke (found many times in katas) would work with the applications they usually teach no-clue instructors or i believe okinawans purposely....
How many people use that blocks with success in a full contact sparring??? how many people use naturally instead parries...
Just wanted to stress that the real meanings of the katas are far from being easy as u think.....
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate blocks - 12/28/05 05:27 AM
Most people who do kata for a good length of time become aware of the difference in real and sport applications. Sport karate "no clue" instructors will still teach sport applications as they were taught.
For example: Jodan Uke can be an arm break,strike to throatetc. The chamber is used for push/pull two way action or trapping.
The sport application would be using your forearm to block a downward strike.
Is this what you are getting at?
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 12/28/05 06:31 AM
you know what i mean..
My sport karate example was to reiterate that when you put a person in a fighting situation (full contact or street) he will naturally use parries instead of those blocks. So my question is why these blocks appear all the time in the katas?
Because i believe that the okinwans were no stupid, my answer is they are no blocks but final part of strikes or attacking techniques hence the close punches.
So why there are still okinawans and japanese master and western instructor that teaches that ridiculous applications that in the street will never never work?? I have my theory......
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate blocks - 12/28/05 06:36 AM
Quote:
I have my theory......
Let's hear it!!
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 12/28/05 06:49 AM
haha!
nothing complicated; before i want to make another example muay thai (very effective and fighting oriented) how many pages in manual or dvds are dedicated to blocks very few!! they use only parries.
I believe karate is very effective but they are two type of karate:
karate jitsu and karatedo
Karate jitsu the old type of karate is not taught anymore for several reasons (many younger okinawans have learned the karatedo and teach it as been taught, the few old remaining masters that they know it such Moryo Higaonna and others teaches only few (family etc.) and teach the wide pubblic karatedo; japanese at the beginning, as americans marines have been taught by okinawans the diluted version, went home and taught it the same way and so on...)
Professor Don Draeger (one of the most important historian of asian martial arts and very effective fighter)said..
I advice to read this
Do you believe that the modern martial arts systems are, as Draeger once wrote in reference to Japanese karate-do, “an ass in a tiger’s skin”?
Again, this gets back to what we discussed before regarding belief systems. karate that has evolved in Japan since it was taken out of Okinawa, never evolved for combat nor was designed for combat nor had anything to do with combat. Modern Japanese karate evolved toward a totally different end. Now, there are plenty of good, functional karate guys who can go out and do fine in a fight, but it’s probably more to do with their own personal abilities than the type of karate they train in.
The problem is that we lump all karate together, where you should have the old classical Okinawan karate-jutsu as versus the modern Japanese karate-do. Again, the modern karate-do is not designed for real fighting, it’s not evolved for fighting, and it isn’t very good for fighting.
-----
so now u know my theory
The traditional blocks of Karate are not blocks. Well, not entirely.
There is one simple problem.
"Traditional" Karate is taught incorrectly in 99.999999% of dojos.
Do a bit of research, find the real answers. Each "block" in Karate has a plethora of practical applications that are easily usable on the street. In fact, each one should be able to incapacitate and opponent with no further moves attached.
For example, ONE bunkai for Jodan Age Uke (Upper Rising Block) would be the following:
1. Left arm extends into parry/finger thrust to eyes
2. Simultaneous right punch to centre line
3. Right grab arm and twist off balance (hikite)
4. Left Forearm smash to jawline (ST-5).
Look at each "block". It has both hands working, both feet. Each one is a KO, but are taught as simply a defensive move. Do people really think this is how they were designed originally?????? They were designed in much more violent times than now!!! They were intended for damage, not sport. As such, it is naive to think the weakness is in the system, rather than the current teaching.
It's hard to describe in words, but there are so many applications. They are only taught as blocks because most older practitioners are embarrassed to admit they don't know it. After WWII, the real meanings disappeared, and Karate-Do was all that was left.
The West thought they were learning a great fighting art but in fact were wielding a gun with no bullets.
Mark.
Mark.
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 12/28/05 07:15 AM
I know that (I teach karate and having been taught by let's say very good asian master). Glad you agree on my point,
They told me that u would undertsand in okinawa if the class was about karate jitsu if the instructors on the front row they missed their teeth...just to state how different it was
actually if many instructors would stop to teach that nonsense in the dojo many people would join karate instead of mixed martial arts classes, muay thai etc...
very sad
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: karate blocks - 12/28/05 07:18 AM
'How many people use that block (jodan age uke) with success in a full contact sparring???'
depends on your understanding and technical performance of jodan age uke actually, from a wedge guard position it does 'absorb' big hooks rather well, however this would be as a defensive measure, in a controled fight IMO and not particulary usefull for the street (it needs to extend 'in' to the attacking limb alot more)- and has alot to do with tired fighters.
but my point is that I see it alot in pro boxing.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate blocks - 12/28/05 08:01 AM
Quote:
"Traditional" Karate is taught incorrectly in 99.999999% of dojos.
Yet,everyone on these boards know the 'real' applications.
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 12/28/05 08:27 AM
Shoshinkan
yes off course but not as taught in many dojos, manuals and dvds (okinawan, japanese and non) to stop a straight punch to the face. You speak about a modification, jodan uke lateral to stop a circular puch which is fine(however, i guess not perfomed with a close punch which slows sensibly the block).
this application (against circular-hook)can be found in the shorinji kempo (old art of the buddhist monk Doshin So) uwa uke.Exactly what u describe and done with open hand; could be that perhaps the application u indicates was one of the real use of jodan uke togehter with other as strike??? and if yes why that nonsense japanese (and also okinawa application) against straight punch to the face while there are much more FAST and efficient ways to stop a straight punch (slap parry downward as muay thai do, called as ashi barai uke in Shorin ryu seibukan Shimabukuro Zenpo lineage)???
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: karate blocks - 12/28/05 08:51 AM
LOL, Delta I agree with much of what you say, certianly in the state of 'modern' karate being taught for self defense.
But it is what it is...............
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 12/28/05 12:02 PM
I agree and this bring to another point Karate is completely useless without proper Kote kitae and body conditioning on all part of the body. Actually in china they also condition the chin and cheeks to resist the strikes......
Posted by: oldman
Re: karate blocks - 12/28/05 12:26 PM
I agree cheeks should be conditioned. It would be a waste of time for anyone to attack my buttocks. They are superbly conditioned.
Quote:
If it works in other systems why does it not work for him.
Maybe they dont work for him cause he's an individual and its his choice to use them or not.
Quote:
where does the problem lie. It lies in the preparation and realism. If you train real you will fight real.
Kinda answered your own qeustion there
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: karate blocks - 12/28/05 01:13 PM
personally i agree that conditioning is an important part of our training, however many people are happy to not condition and thats fine for them.
for the best makiwara in the UK see -
www.makiwarapost.comWe also do a range of bespoke hojo undo kit for those that wish to condition/strength train.
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 12/28/05 03:15 PM
hahahahahahaha
, however you should have seen the old chinese master that i met how resisted pretty strong punches on the chin...
"Yet,everyone on these boards know the 'real' applications"
Even if that were true, the people on these boards are the ones who chose to inform themselves.
We are a small minority amongst MA's at large. A VERY small minority.
Mark.
P.S. Nice makiwaras. IF I had any cash, I'd grab one!
Posted by: Neko456
Re: karate blocks - 12/28/05 05:27 PM
If it works in other systems why does it not work for him.
------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe they dont work for him cause he's an individual and its his choice to use them or not.
If its an individual thing how or why would he make such a conclusive statement. I know practioners that can do techniques that I can not, that doesn't mean it don't work. It means it doesn't work for Me.
Quote:------------------------------------------------------
where does the problem lie. It lies in the preparation and realism. If you train real you will fight real.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Kinda answered your own qeustion there.
I didn't answer the question I threw out some meat for thought. Maybe what he does is real to him, but if you work every angle theres a needed block for every strike. The hammer fist or axe kick r over head attacks countered by the age uke along I'd add tai-sabuki( I wouldn't stay there). The age uke/tsuki, some people turn this move into a rear hand rising punch counter, deflecting a head punch and striking to the head at the same time. Its how you practice, you can do it basic/1-2.. or advance/realistic.
Fair enough, no hostility on my part, ok?
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate blocks - 12/29/05 12:04 AM
Quote:
I agree and this bring to another point Karate is completely useless without proper Kote kitae and body conditioning on all part of the body. Actually in china they also condition the chin and cheeks to resist the strikes......
Here we go with conditioning again.
All the conditioning I need I get through sparring and bagwork.
Saying that karate is completely useless without your type of training is 'completely' stupid.
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 12/29/05 06:55 AM
Quote:
I agree and this bring to another point Karate is completely useless without proper Kote kitae and body conditioning on all part of the body. Actually in china they also condition the chin and cheeks to resist the strikes......
Brian,
perhaps is stupid but have u ever thought why the old okinawan masters insisted so much on it? One kill-one blow etc....
In a very old book of Prof Donn Draeger (hope u know who is, the most deadly martial artist, jitsu not do, and re-known martial arts historian)with one of the last exponent of shaolin kung fu Lohan (Arhat boxing, the father of okinawan karate see bubishi); the old Sifu stated after having explained some techniques and 1 form that all was useless without proper limbs and body conditioning (iron palm etc..)Off course work on a bag is useful but does not strenght for instance your shin to break a limb with a low mawashi geri or a forearm to break a limb if u want etc..
Sorry for the reply but not have understood quite yet how to use it
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate blocks - 12/29/05 07:21 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I agree and this bring to another point Karate is completely useless without proper Kote kitae and body conditioning on all part of the body. Actually in china they also condition the chin and cheeks to resist the strikes......
Brian,
perhaps is stupid but have u ever thought why the old okinawan masters insisted so much on it? One kill-one blow etc....
In a very old book of Prof Donn Draeger (hope u know who is, the most deadly martial artist, jitsu not do, and re-known martial arts historian)with one of the last exponent of shaolin kung fu Lohan (Arhat boxing, the father of okinawan karate see bubishi); the old Sifu stated after having explained some techniques and 1 form that all was useless without proper limbs and body conditioning (iron palm etc..)Off course work on a bag is useful but does not strenght for instance your shin to break a limb with a low mawashi geri or a forearm to break a limb if u want etc..
Sorry for the reply but not have understood quite yet how to use it
One strike one kill huh? Yeah right. Give me one account of that ever happening,ever. Maybe it is because they didn't have ER doctors and modern medicine.
Listen. We don't live in feudal Japan,far from it. You are not doing yourself service by punishing yourself with conditioning that you most likely will never need. And please show me someone breaking bones with their shin or any other limbs.
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/15811662/an/0/page/0#15811662
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 12/29/05 07:25 AM
Bryan, these 2 men one i have met personally and taught me karate are able to break with shins 2 baseball bat
http://www.enshin.com/index2.htmlhttp://www.rik.ne.jp/karate/english/dojyo.htm (I trained with him)
Million of times i repeated this, it depends how you condition your limbs and what liniment you put it, i work in academia so need to write a lot so i do not want to get crippled, i do not have callouses on my hands etc...
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: karate blocks - 12/29/05 07:34 AM
DeltaF. 'ikken hissatsu' is a frame of mind...a commitment in spirit to each strike ending conflict. The common mis-use is, like yours, to over-commit to a strike by inadvertantly comprimising your tactical position in order to literally kill the person with one strike. This is where the fodder for ridicule of 'one hit wonders' comes from.
conditioning is a cost/benefit analysis...a fad of the 70's in OMA dojos was to condition knuckles on a makiwara until dark callouses developed. The short term benefit was hard, pain-free striking. The long-term cost was arthritis and hand deformity. needless to say, people wised up and stopped training that way.
The logic of spending hours a week conditioning your body to handle getting hit (in the neck for instance) doesn't make sense, wouldn't you be better off spending the time practicing how not to get hit? In other words, the 'conditioning' just happens as a result of the training...not the other way around.
Of course, if there is a particular weakness, extra drills to strengthen it makes sense. bone density is affected just as much by diet as well.
just some random thouhgts on the subject...
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: karate blocks - 12/29/05 07:38 AM
from that website:
Quote:
Matsumura Sokon(1809 ~ 1969) served for the King of Ryukyu...
LOL...good conditioning.
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 12/29/05 07:46 AM
'The logic of spending hours a week conditioning your body to handle getting hit (in the neck for instance) doesn't make sense, wouldn't you be better off spending the time practicing how not to get hit?'
I was speaking about conditioning as a necessity for developing karate power not to mainly absorb hit; however it helps to absorb hit as well. It is not realistic in a street fight to think that you will never been hit (no matter how much train you do you will find always someone more faster) so it is important to cover that.
About deformity of the limbs, already said that proper conditioning and use of proper liniment does not lead to deformity at all and callouses. Plus even if you have develped callouses (an example was Mas Oyama sensei) they analysed his hands with XR and did not find any signs of problems.... It would be very funny and does not make sense if a black belt of karate would break his knuckles in a street fight because has hit the head of someone (believe me very hard to hit from an impact point of view).
The same boxers in a street fight can break their knuckles if not properly conditioned...
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 12/29/05 07:50 AM
Quote:
from that website:
Quote:
Matsumura Sokon(1809 ~ 1969) served for the King of Ryukyu...
LOL...good conditioning.
perhaps he is not good in writing in english but believe me very good in full contact; you can see a pic with him and Andy Hug at one of his seminar in okinawa... I do not explain who is Andy Hug because i know who is...
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate blocks - 12/29/05 07:59 AM
I'd like to know what you do for your conditioning.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: karate blocks - 12/29/05 08:46 AM
my mistake...thought this was a kind of 'juko kai' topic. didn't read it from the top post.
Posted by: WuXing
Re: karate blocks - 12/29/05 08:55 AM
Just to play devil's advocate...
There's that kickboxing clip, where one guy breaks his shin on the other guy's shin. So that's technically a shin breaking a bone...except it was the attacker who's leg broke...
Maybe he should have conditioned his shins a little more?
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 12/29/05 09:03 AM
Quote:
Just to play devil's advocate...
There's that kickboxing clip, where one guy breaks his shin on the other guy's shin. So that's technically a shin breaking a bone...except it was the attacker who's leg broke...
Maybe he should have conditioned his shins a little more?
MAYBE
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate blocks - 12/30/05 12:11 AM
Maybe he should have drank more milk?
Still didn't answer my question? I'm guessing your conditioning is extreme,could be wrong.
Posted by: Subedei
Re: karate blocks - 12/30/05 12:27 AM
His leg could also have been riddled with small fractures due to unwise conditioning.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate blocks - 12/30/05 12:34 AM
T R U E
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 12/30/05 05:32 AM
Brian,
I was not online, my conditioning is not extreme actually pretty standard for okinawan karate and very similar in concept to muay thai, iron palm etc...The key concepts are gradual to allow adaptation and liniments immediately before and after. So I target hands (every possible part, included fingers),wrists, forearms every portion, shoulders, legs, shins, elbows, foot.
By the way the one blow one kill logic is not philosophy at all if you break with your hand bricks like they did in the old time,neither the say that the block should be also an attack if you have your forearm conditioned believe me people feel pain when they hit you
will this give me deformation?? Until now not, however this is the real karate way and Mas Oyama knew it; only in this way karate becomes a deadly self defence system and can compete with Muay thai, boxing etc....
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate blocks - 12/30/05 06:47 AM
Any karate is 'real karate'. I hate it when people think they are the only ones doing it right.
Oyama was extraordinary.Where are all the 'real' karateka that followed him? He found what worked for him and it won't necessarily work for everyone.
BTW,you still haven't told me what you do for conditioning.
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 12/30/05 07:08 AM
Brian,
i try to follow only the karate as taught in okinawa so if you consider this as not the real one is your opinion. I have not said that the other types of karate are not real just i believe are diluted for commercial and ignorance reasons (you cannot for instance promote body conditioning as a crucial part of the training-as should be following the old path- without losing a lot of students)For commercial reason is better to promote the unbelievable formula that a woman should punch when we all know that even for a man punching the face of a person will cause fracture if the fist is not conditioned.
About my conditioning I told you and then this is a secret of the trade
I can advice you a book (an old one still pubblished which give some guidelines) written by the legendary Prof. Drager, let me know and will send the title via private message.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate blocks - 01/01/06 10:30 PM
There are more than mcdojo's that do not condition hard enough to lose students. Isn't that what you are implying?
Please send me the title since you can't tell me.
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 01/02/06 05:24 AM
Brian,
off course I send the title;
what i say is simple; original karate goes hand to hand with tough progressive conditioning and is based on kata and realistic bunkai and bogu kumite'. We have two hypotheses there are instructors that have not trained properly to this way because studied the diluted way, this because the master were jelous of their trade (you can find them in japan, the majority in europe and western world and also in okinawa -the karate PE taught after Itosu adapted it)the second hypotheses is that even the few instructors and master than they know karate the old ways adapt and compromise because karate is business, many instructors live with karate hence the focus is given to please the students and do not scare them away.
Result= a Karatedo that is ridiculous and can never stand a fight with a Muay Thai or boxer or any other oriented combat sport. The original karate instead can be very effective
So it is up to the individual research and study..
Posted by: butterfly
Re: karate blocks - 01/03/06 12:07 AM
Deltaforce,
I don't get it and was admittedly too lazy to read through this entire listing. But, you have confused a couple of things here with Mas Oyama and Kyokushin and Okinawan karate.
Mas Oyama was not Okinawan nor did he practice Okinawan Karate. Mostly Shotokan with some Goju thrown in. How much of the Okinawan stuff is present in his take on karate is debatable. But the Japanese Karate as prestented through Shotokan is not.
I think he did a good think with his application of full contact which others have amplified and continued, but I don't get your post and have to agree with Brian here.
How much training have you had in karate and in what styles?
Kyokushin is Japanese Karate and I have never heard of bogu kumite used in Kyokushin.
-B
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 01/03/06 05:34 AM
you did not get it! Please read carefully my posts
Just mentioned Mas Oyama as an example of one that understood the importance of body conditioning for an effective use of karate techniques. Believe me i am aware that kyokushinkai is Japanese and that as nothing to do with Okinwan karate unless we want to mention that Mas Oyama took lessons in Funakoshi (okinawan)'s karate that i believe was not even called shotokan at the time
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate blocks - 01/03/06 05:46 AM
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.............
Posted by: Toudiyama
Re: karate blocks - 01/03/06 07:28 AM
I think a combination of Wado style Hagashi uke and sukui uke blocks and the way Ashihara blocks are done, is best suited for practical use
As far as conditioning goes, the founder of Wado said it nicely, why disfigure your body all your life for a fight that might never happen
My punches were just as hard as someone puching the makiwara all the time
a proper block shouldn't need any conditioning, it should make the opponent miss altogether without excerting to much power
Posted by: SonOfSoken
Re: karate blocks - 01/03/06 09:10 PM
Quote:
Any karate is 'real karate'. I hate it when people think they are the only ones doing it right.
Oyama was extraordinary.Where are all the 'real' karateka that followed him? He found what worked for him and it won't necessarily work for everyone.
BTW,you still haven't told me what you do for conditioning.
Hard blocks are part of gross-motor training and body conditioning, and there are instances when you can't get outta the way, so you better be able to soften the impact with a good hard block. This is where two-man drills are so important, even moreso than jiyu kumite. Also in many old styles of karate emphasis is placed on using your rear guard hand as a spare block that parries or softens the blow by deflection and impact in conjunction with the front guard fist. Real karate trains for parrying, impact blocking, striking the strike, dodging, ducking, getting the opponents rear corner with body-change; for any forseeable circumstance. That is if you have a good teacher in a real karate style.
Sorry Mr. Mod that doesn't want to learn anything from me, but you are dead wrong. If you do Goju but don't practice muchimi, koteate/kotekitai, hit the makiwara (not to get calloused knuckles either), use the chi ishi, tetsu bo, earthen jars or the myriad other devices and hojo undo replete in REAL karate (at least for some time in your training), then you're doing gendai budo. Quit calling it karate.
Just like so many other things, there is the real, the kinda' real and the not-so-real-at-all. If you think a facsimile of a notion of a diluted version of a form of something real means it's real, then you're not smart. It's just a pseudo-representation of a philosophical form--- PERIOD. Argue all you want, be as inclusive as you want, but you're still wrong in your assumption.
There is real karate out there, and real teachers, on every continent. Most of it IS Okinawan Karate SOME of it is not. Like most things the average dojo and teacher is just that- average- that doesn't equate to "real" or "good". Every once-in-a-blue moon you find someone who's legit, someone who truly understood the real karate that was taught to them and who knows how to convey the message to anyone, no matter if they've made some slight modifications to fit their mind-body type.
Modern karate training techniques which include boxing and judo principles to train in just are not enough. You need the old and the new in conjunction. You can get the gist of what it's like to hit something solid with a heavybag, but nothing can prepare your fist for proper impact with an immovable/almost immovable object like a good makiwara can. Additionally if you wrap your hands and wrists and use bag gloves then you're doing half-assed boxing/kickboxing conditioning, which has nothing whatsoever to do with self-preservation.
Look if boxing was so great, the best of the striking arts, and if kickbxoing was the end all be all of striking styles then a lot of guys who could box would never have switched completely to real karate back in the day. Trias, Mike Stone and a host of other karate legends come to mind. Many of these guys were amateur champs in boxing in various weight catagories. Boxing may have good ring conditioning but it's not for the streets, just as most kickboxing isn't either. You also forget that American Kickboxing was started by mostly traditional Shorin Ryu karate-ka who were at best journeyman shodans. So kickboxing is a small part of karate, made almost exclusively for the ring, mot really for the street.
You can argue all you want but a lot of us really do the "real" versus the bandwagon or the presumed.
Also, I'm not necessarily agreeing with Delta, I'm disagreeing with Brian, master of the ping-pong ball prosthesis steelo. Get your paddles-- "Hajime"!!!
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: karate blocks - 01/03/06 11:36 PM
you already know this, but maybe you forgot...
on a technicallity of terms "gendai budo" means an Art established (by Japan) post Meiji (1868). Therefore Japanese 'Karate' by definition is gendai (modern).
Koryu are Arts established before 1868.
Since Okinawans didn't really have a system of 'establishing' Arts the same sytematic and political way Japan did things...the terms Gendai and Koryu don't translate well to 'old school' Okinawan Arts. IMO
Reguardless of Okinawa becomming part of Japan in 1879, If you are talking about Okinawan Toudi or 'Te' you aren't really talking about 'Karate'...you are talking about Karate's predecesor and you should be doing so using Okinawan terms\proper kanji. The very fact you use Japanese terms to describe an Okinawan Art is idicitive of the inherent 'Japanization' of whats available today in Karate.
As hard as a few early 20th century masters endevored to keep their 'Toudi' pure, alot was lost and/or changed to the pull of Japan's influence. the fact some now call their Art Karate-Jitsu tells me that they are trying to reverse the Japan influence to get their Art working again for it's intended purpose, self-defense.
Just because some of our Arts are further away from the goal doesn't make our effort any less valid. There is simply not enough true masters to go around...we have to work with what we've got.
If you are practicing a 'true' Okinawan Art...then you shouldn't be using Japanese names for it - In that way, it's YOU who should stop calling what you do 'Karate' and read the kanji again that is probably embroided on your Gendai belt (you know, that post-Meiji Japan invention around your waist): 'Toudi'.
I have been taught and I study nothing other than Gendai budo Karate and use a 'reverse engineering' method of figuring it out. Isn't that what you are ultimately doing but perhaps at a different level?
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate blocks - 01/03/06 11:59 PM
Sonofsoke,
Once again you grace us with your almighty presence and inflated ego,thanks.
Do you know how I train? Have you been to my school? Then how do you know if what I'm doing is 'real' or not? Is it because my instructors aren't internationally recognized or directly from Okinawan lineage?
In my real karate we spar hard,I've been knocked out and I've ko'ed others as well,we bleed,make trips to the ER in the middle of class,etc. That seemed 'real' to me. I've been doing it that way for 15yrs,all 'real' years.
Our conditioning consists of falling on asphalt,dirt,rocks,banging shins,arms,knuckles,heads,feet,and everything else attached to us when we spar. I'm not near as sensitive to it as I used to be,maybe I'm conditioned? We do knuckle pushups on the asphalt,and I do not wear wraps when hitting a bag,not all the time.
There is a line that needs to be drawn though,which is more important,health and well-being or conditioning? I'm not going to damage my body excessively over the idea that someday I may get into an altercation and it may last long enough for my conditioning to come in play.
Quote:
Sorry Mr. Mod that doesn't want to learn anything from me, but you are dead wrong. If you do Goju but don't practice muchimi, koteate/kotekitai, hit the makiwara (not to get calloused knuckles either), use the chi ishi, tetsu bo, earthen jars or the myriad other devices and hojo undo replete in REAL karate (at least for some time in your training), then you're doing gendai budo. Quit calling it karate.
Why the attitude? Why would anyone want to learn from someone who is so arrogant? I do karate,yes I do.
I look forward to your response,please stay half way civil so we don't have to ban you again.
BTW, Who is your instructor? How long have you been in 'real' karate?
Posted by: medulanet
Re: karate blocks - 01/04/06 01:37 AM
Not that I'm taking anyone's side here, but what does sparring "hard" and knocking people out have to do with real karate. You can find that at any MMA gym, but that ain't karate. I believe what SOS is talking about is that karate is a specifically okinawan perspective on H2H fighting. When non Okinwans learn the kata and fighting techniques without learning the Okinawan way of using them it ceases to be karate. Not that it is not effective or valid, just that one thing has been lost and another gained. However, when those uniquely okinwan aspects of karate are kept intact through proper transmission of the style a practioner can add his or her own flavor yet it does not cease to be what some okinawans describe as uchinandi. When someone teaches you their way and you embrace it and stay true to it it becomes your way as well. This is how karate should be. No matter what good intentions people have some people are infact doing what some may describe as "real karate" and some are not. And remember, SOS does not even believe my style of Matsubayashi is "real karate." But he doesn't know me or my style as well as he thinks. But so I won't be accused of being off target I will address karate blocks. First I am not going to even speak about what else a block can be other than a block. But I will say in karate blocks are done offensively with tai sabaki. They are used to deflect or stop initial attacks cold. They are used to "wall off" future attacks. They are used to trap limbs. They are used to destroy attacks. They are almost always done with two hands. Finally the most important aspect of using the effectively is timing. Yes, with proper understanding and application you can negotiate an initial attack, eliminate a second attack's effectiveness, and put yourself in excellent position to commit attempted murder...uh I mean self defense
if you so choose before a third attack gets started.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate blocks - 01/04/06 02:22 AM
Quote:
Not that I'm taking anyone's side here, but what does sparring "hard" and knocking people out have to do with real karate.
LOL! You have a point there,I was typing under duress and just trying to get across that he has the wrong impression of our way of training as it realtes to what he believes is 'real'.
I think we all have our own definitions of what karate is. If you ask someone who isn't familiar with ma he would think TKD or MT is karate.
I like your take on blocks,it's how we teach as well. Blocking doesn't have to conform to a certain technique to be effective,in other words,it is a natural action. You wouldn't need Age Uke or Gedan Barai if they were really just ways of deflecting or stopping.
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 01/04/06 05:35 AM
Amen!
Real Okinawa-te (i am using the traditional name of Karate) goes hand to hand with body conditioning because that is the most efficient way to use it; only in that case blocks become attacks, only in that case the say one blow-one kill can be implemented. Only in this case 'karate' can compare with other combat style such Muay thai efficently.This does not mean that i dislike other way of training, i am just state the obvious.
Gambatte
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: karate blocks - 01/04/06 10:00 AM
so Delta, you are saying you are practicing 'Real Okinawa-te' right now? and they teach strikes as 'blocks' (as you call them). and 'ikken-hissatsu'?
I always thought 'one strike - one kill' was a Japanese-militaristic concept based on ken-jutsu. and Muay thai doesn't even have this concept, so wtf are you talking about?
'continuous attack' is more in line with Okinawan-Te strategies. there is also the word (forgot the lingo for it) for a desicisive hit which means the strike you pull off that allows to gain the advantage.
but what would I know....I've only been taught 'modern Karate'. still, some gendai Karate sounds more in-line with the older traditions than you purport to be doing there, DeltaF. see how everything is relative and subject to interpretation?
back to 'blocks' and conditioning: sure you can pound your arms on whetstone if you want... btw, who handed down these training methods to you...I'd think all old-school practitioners should know their lineage.
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 01/04/06 10:15 AM
Quote:
so Delta, you are saying you are practicing 'Real Okinawa-te' right now? and they teach strikes as 'blocks' (as you call them). and 'ikken-hissatsu'?
I always thought 'one strike - one kill' was a Japanese-militaristic concept based on ken-jutsu. and Muay thai doesn't even have this concept, so wtf are you talking about?
'continuous attack' is more in line with Okinawan-Te strategies. there is also the word (forgot the lingo for it) for a desicisive hit which means the strike you pull off that allows to gain the advantage.
but what would I know....I've only been taught 'modern Karate'. still, some gendai Karate sounds more in-line with the older traditions than you purport to be doing there, DeltaF. see how everything is relative and subject to interpretation?
back to 'blocks' and conditioning: sure you can pound your arms on whetstone if you want... btw, who handed down these training methods to you...I'd think all old-school practitioners should know their lineage.
I do not say anything of what u say; listen why start argue for the sake of argue or fill a post??
Already reply one that accused me to say that Kyokushin was okinawan karate (he did not read well the posts) sorry i reply only serious questions or arguments such Brian's etc....
You know what I mean and I know what I know
PS
just only to let u know my lineage of karate is direct, without gimmiks with just 2 people before me, to one of the 'masters, of okinawa-te (lineage documented by the prefectural website
http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/003/002/index.html
Do not ask me who; I leave this ego stuff for someoneelse
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: karate blocks - 01/04/06 11:59 AM
typical. confront someone with logic and/or fact, and they take the high road.
this is what you said:
Quote:
Real Okinawa-te (i am using the traditional name of Karate) goes hand to hand with body conditioning because that is the most efficient way to use it; only in that case blocks become attacks, only in that case the say one blow-one kill can be implemented. Only in this case 'karate' can compare with other combat style such Muay thai efficently.This does not mean that i dislike other way of training, i am just state the obvious.
you are implying that 'real Okinawan Te' (by your implication: 'real Karate') includes 'one blow-one kill' via conditioning. complete and negligent falsity of Te.
I was calling you on it...and you say, I'm argueing. no I wasn't argueing for that sake of arguing...I was calling out someone (you) trying to convince people he knows the 'real karate'...yet making rediculously inaccurate statements about what you claim to do.
you guys are the ones claiming to know what the 'real' stuff is and what the rest of us do is substandard... why shouldn't we question that?
SonofaSoke, what say you on the issue of 'blocks are strikes' and 'ikken hissatsu' as it relates to 'real Karate' or 'real Te'?
take care guys. I'm not arguing...its just 'rigerous discourse'.
after all....it's just a forum.
-Ed
p.s. the lineage chart tells me nothing of what you do. are you now implying your karate decends thru the H. Soken line? obviously lineage is important to you since you have an awareness of what 'real' is....otherwise, you'd just call it 'Karate'.
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 01/04/06 12:11 PM
cool,
listen can write a long essay but my position can be summarised saying that okinawa-te was effective because was and still is based on a strong component of body conditioning, using conditioning can transform a block in attack and that some blocks used in kata do not work in the street in the way are taught
that's all
Peace
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate blocks - 01/05/06 12:36 AM
Quote:
cool,
listen can write a long essay but my position can be summarised saying that okinawa-te was effective because was and still is based on a strong component of body conditioning, using conditioning can transform a block in attack and that some blocks used in kata do not work in the street in the way are taught
that's all
Peace
Obviously I've been doing it all wrong!! My crotty is so pathetically Americanized and watered down that I believe blocks are much more than just meeting force with force and going blow to blow. I'm going to go hit my makiwara with my face now,conditioning you know.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: karate blocks - 01/05/06 02:24 AM
lol...never thought of that before...hitting the makiwara with your face. and why wouldn't you, since you can't expect to never get hit there.
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 01/05/06 04:42 AM
Brian,
body conditioning does not mean only hit makiwara
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 01/05/06 04:45 AM
Quote:
lol...never thought of that before...hitting the makiwara with your face. and why wouldn't you, since you can't expect to never get hit there.
Actually in chinese kung fu there is a method to condition the chin and the face and it is pretty effective so you can stand a hard hit and not knocked down; though not very sure you need to hit the face against the makiwara perhas is an option
Posted by: JasonM
Re: karate blocks - 01/05/06 05:31 AM
How do they accomplish this? I don't think the face or chin can be conditioned. I believe that this "conditioning" is just getting the person used to taking a blow to the face.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate blocks - 01/05/06 05:47 AM
Quote:
Brian,
body conditioning does not mean only hit makiwara
No kidding?
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 01/05/06 05:53 AM
Quote:
How do they accomplish this? I don't think the face or chin can be conditioned. I believe that this "conditioning" is just getting the person used to taking a blow to the face.
I saw with my eyes an hold sifu stand very powerfull hit on the chin and cheeks; when someone asked how he did that change argument and did not give any exaplanations. This made me realise that lots of techniques in katas explained ridiculously by some instructors were taught because inherited by teacher that did not wish to share the secrets of their family karate and pushed me to check applications to the source. Sadly to admit many instructors in western world, japan and also in okinawa, the young one, have been studies karatedo (diluted version of karatejitsu or okinawa te-the real deal)
Posted by: Deltaforce69
Re: karate blocks - 01/05/06 05:54 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Brian,
body conditioning does not mean only hit makiwara
you know what i mean especially when you will read the book that you asked me
Posted by: BrianS
Re: karate blocks - 01/05/06 05:55 AM
That's about enough.