elbow down?

Of course you don't fight or engage at distance with the exact same technique as in kata.

We do some kihon with the elbow down, in fighting stance.

It just happens that elbow up works very well in self defense once a lock is put on or to use body mechanics when one executes bicep bumps, actually applying locks, generating more power to deliver finishing srtikes once an upper hand is made thriugh concussive strikes or stand up grappling or tai sabaki.

Well put, Ed! Veered off or not, the discussion was of great value, which I had in mind in posting the link.

Sometimes just going to school/dojo and reading books or just sparring don't give you a good idea of what all works and different things works for different people better and is the reason for the various styles and different systems.
I am fire tester I don't believe anything works until tested by fire. In a real fight the horozital punch has decked bigger guys then myself so easily as a youth I'd look at my fist (and mentally say did i do that!!!) especially my left hand. If you think its a Kata technique you will not have faith in it.

I've used punches of all types in sparring and actual fights
both the verticle punch, the horozital and short under cut are safe powerful weapons.

Different techniqes work for different people. I use to preach and still do not using jump back kicks in real fights. But I had an exceptional Brown belt student(now Godan in his on right) that could knock people out with his chest high back kick street fighting. Now I still believe that its not a the best street technique. But do you really think I could tell him that its doesn't work. I mantain its not the best kick for the street but it works for him.

The same is true in this discussion the horozital or reverse punch strike is NOT a KATA techniques. I see them as one punch pending the range I'm at.

Try throwing a verticle like an over hand right, yes I see a over hand right or left as a Karate/punching technique even though it may not appear in basic Kata. Its only a modification of a basic technique, do what works, don't say I have to do it one way or noway. IMHO.

Umm...ok. Do what you feel works for you and I will for me. Seems you're arguing horizontal vs. vertical,I don't do either.
I'm not sure what you're getting at about punching and how it relates to kata either.

My instructor originally taught us to punch in relation to where our arm was from our body. When I say horizontal punch, I mean that is the position my hand is in when I complete the punch. And that usually depends on how far out I punch.

agreed, distance related in the most part

You wrote - In reference to straight on punches-I don't think there is a place for a full twist punch in self defense,done "proper" or not. The reason being improper alignment not In reference to straight on punches.

I beg your pardon I felt that if it there is no place for the f-twisting punch in Self defense and it is promient in Kata it was deemed a Kata technique. I put words in your mouth or meaning, for that I'm sorry.

I do agree to disagree with you base on real life personal results not just theories or hitting a bag. The FtP is a note worthy variation & a good punching techniques. Your resolution sounds solid I will do what been working for me, and U do like wise. Stick with just the veritcle punch its a good punch within its range.

I use any and all versions of effective punching and I perfer neither except the one that fits my need a that time. We disagree here that I argue niether are superior techniques they all have purpose because they have past the test of time. And more importantly all have proven its self in my own personal conflicts/test. I will say the FTP has more variations via cross & over hand right. The veritcal punch can't do that. It can only be thrown straight maybe a short cross.

We have no argument, You like the V-punch and so do I. We differ in totality, versitilty and each others reality.

Bushi-no-Ki & Shoshinkan I agree totally with you guys they both are just good punches made effective by use at the proper range/height.

I see what you mean along with decking people with it sparring & on the street, who can say its not be a solid technique. Unless you never used it.

Just because I can't use it doesn't mean its not a solid technique. It reminds of this story of Sambu Allen Steen he didn't believe in the use of haito. In 1969-70s tournament Mike Stone Ko'd him with it and Mr. Steen started teaching it, his very next class. It wasn't tag back then.

Off topic but hopefully you get my jest.