Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N)

Posted by: hedkikr

Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/27/05 12:46 PM

This has dogged me for years...

Kempo is roughly translated as "Fist Method" or "Fist Law".

My original BB Menjo (certificate) from Japan was issued by "Tani-ha Shito-ryu Shukokai Kempo Karate-do Renmei".

What characteristics separate Kenpo from Kempo?

Thanks...

BTW: Kenpo (w/ an N) is an American alteration of Kempo, a word that only exists outside of Japan.
Posted by: WuXing

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/27/05 01:11 PM

I think "ken" means fist. Though it can sound kind of like an "m" depending on how it is said and what procedes it, so it's easy to see why it could have ended up spelled with an "m" by some people. I don't know what the difference is between the people who spell it with "n" and "m", but it's supposed to be the same word. It's same kanji characters.

It's like the difference between the people who practice Wing Chun and Ving Tsun...they are adamant about how it is transliterated in english, even though it's exactly the same thing in chinese.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/27/05 01:22 PM

Kempo is a term that compares with Chuna-fa meaning Chinese fist way or whetever variation you perfer. Kempo could referer to any Okinawan Tode, before the attempt to applease the Japanese. As I understand it.

Kenpo is a diversed art that has a art thats very similar to Shorin-ryu and another soft/hard arts the is similar to Kung-fu with Shorin-ryu mixed using circular and linera techniques.

There are other version of Kenpo or Kempo.

In Hawiaii a major spilt came when James Mitoes linera Kenpo and Prof Chows mixed Kenpo, a then student of both Ed Parker obviously perferred Chows method and enhanced it making it a more structured system. Kata base are different then Shorin-ryu in some places but similar in others Mitoes influnenced Tracys Kenpo their Katas seem similar to Shorin-ryu Heian, Tekki, Bassai. Except for chopping kicks it hard to tell hard Kenpo from Shorin-ryu until you see the flow of their kata.

Chow/Parker/Sanders/ kenpo traits are more blending blocks into multiple open and close strikes, sweeping elbows and knees, they use the mostly verticle fist but also use some horizontal (Mitoes/Tracy/Wally Jay/Roger Green seem to perfers palm downs) punches. Both stress 70% hands and 30% legs their kicks may seem chopping bc they stress getting the foot back planted. There is no visible connection to Shorin-ryu in Chows kenpo, it looks more like high standing Hungar with lots of Crab/Tekki like sideway movements with muliple open and closed hand strikes.

Tekki seems out of place in the Shorin-ryu sylabass compared to Heian, Bassai, ect...

Chows/Parkers katas base are short takes of shorin-ryu? and Kung-fu forms. With names like Long 1 and Short 2 sets versions. I think Parker devised most of these forms, Being that Chow was mostly interested in fighting. This is just an assumption.

Kenpo is hard to define.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/27/05 01:49 PM

My understanding was that the M/N difference was simply semantic, not any kind of stylistic difference. The fact that you are asking the question would seem to verify that (otherwise we would all know already, right?).
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/27/05 02:35 PM

As far as I'm aware that is spot on....Its got something to do with the Kanji translation, I think the true translation is actually with an N but pronounced with a M....You like tomato and I like tomaeto.....yada, yada, yada......to be completely honest I find the subject far to boring to research properly....could be called Care Bear Fu Ryu for all I cared, just as long as it works!

Neko465's defination would probably put my system in the Chow style. The Kempo/Kenpo that I have ever seen always has been along the lines described by Neko465. Always looked a bit too Chinesey to be Karate, but a bit too Japanesey to be Kung Fu! And thats the most definative description your gonna get out of me! Off to practice some Care Bear Fu Ryu!

Gav
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/27/05 04:48 PM

In spoken Japanese, I'm not aware of the "N" sound preceeding a "B" or "P" (sounds that originate w/ the lips closed). It's not the same as the difference between "to-may-to" & to-mah-to".

Yes, "Ken" (as it's written in the Kanji) is fist but the "n" is pronounced like an "M" because "-po" follows. It would be really difficult for a Japanese to say keNpo.
Posted by: WuXing

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/27/05 05:01 PM

exactly, which is why it would be correct to transliterate it either way. It sounds more like "kem", but the kanji by itself sounds like "ken". Any division or arguments over which way to spell it in English would seem like an egotistical pride contest.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/27/05 05:23 PM

Was this a characteristiics/definition of the word difference? In Kempo or Kenpo, we'll talk about most unimportant issuses in the world. Kempo is Japanese and Kenpo is an American/hawaiian definition that could mean "Sword hand method". As stated in the Kenpo creed. I heard this define as such along with the two terms the jargons and whatknocks you guys discussed.

What does Webster say?
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/27/05 06:16 PM

But the question remains...is there a diference between Kempo & Kenpo (aside from the n/m issue)? Are there techniques found in one but not the other? If not, then the only difference would be spelling/pronunciation.

For instance, the difference between Judo & Jujutsu (Japanese, not BJJ) is significant despite the seemingly insignificant "-do/-jutsu" distinction (Do - the way; Jutsu - techniques).

Sorry if I was cryptic - hopefully I've made myself clearer.

Thanks
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/28/05 08:39 AM

Don't think that was cryptic at all, I think at the end of the Kempo is as a generic term as Karate or Kung Fu. The term Chuan Fa is just as ambigous. Its just a name at the end of the day. I swear to god I have seen a system called "Kempo Karate Jujitsu", now thats covering all the bases.

I did have a point I was going to make, but was interupted by a phone call...but that pretty much covers it. IMHO its just an way of spelling a generic name.

Gav
Posted by: WuXing

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/28/05 08:47 AM

There is a huge difference between -do and -jutsu, but that's for another discussion.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/28/05 08:57 AM

Quote:


There is a huge difference between -do and -jutsu, but that's for another discussion.




And one of had many a time!
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/28/05 09:27 AM

Now that I'm interested in that but as U know Kenpo/Kempo is so diversed that its hard to define. There was some rumor that when Miyagi went to Hawaii he spurred the s/h Kempo movement there. But hard Kenpo seems to be liked to Motobu or his ryu. I've seen no solid connection to either rumor espeically the one realted to Miyagi.

I've seen hard Kenpo that looks every bit like Shorin-ryu (with chopping kicks) or Shoto-kan with shoto-kan kicks.

Then you have a kempo/kenpo some that look like strike orintated Jujitsu r Karate + Jijitsu mixture, sorta like Shorin-ji Kempo but of course this has a total different origin but its still called Kempo (it probably the most accurate if Kempo has a difinition besides just being a MA). To boxing + Karate.

To like Gavin stated too Japanese to be Kung-fu and too Chinese to be Karate. Seems to be the norm for the soft/hard system. I think that most of the soft/hard arts have a Jujitsu twist.

Does Kempo/Kenpo have a Do? Most I've seen hard or s/h stressed s/d.
Posted by: Kintama

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/28/05 10:03 AM

to insert a thought on the possible ways to incorrectly romanize: if you ignore the m/n b/p rules of Japanese (Hepburn system).... a way to mis-romanize it is, 'Kenbo'. If you told a Japanese speaker you are learning Kenbo, they might think in terms of "ryosai kenbo". -means you'd be learning how to be a good wife and mother.

The way I understand it, Kempo is what existed in Japan (a nihongo general term for martial arts) which is the translation from the Chinese blanket term for MA: 'chuan fa'/'quan fa'.
Then, 'Kenpo' was relatively recently named in the west.

both terms always need to be qualified. since they are so generic (if you said I study 'kempo', it would be like saying you study 'martial arts'...ok, great, WHICH style).

so there is the distinction:
Kempo is 'martial arts'.
Kenpo is an American style of MA.

and here is the confusion:
Many in the west use the terms interchangably.
Posted by: Bushi_no_ki

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/28/05 04:12 PM

As far as the physical characteristics, there are similarities and differences. AKK, for instance, doesn't use the exact same techniques as the older styles of Kempo/Kenpo (either or), and has had alot of outside influences, such as Chow's Kung Fu training, or what Prof. Planas brought in from Kali. Mostly, it all depends on what you want your Ken/Kempo to look like and what your strengths in the style are.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/28/05 08:53 PM

OK...

1. Does Kenpo encourage:
A. Sideways fighting stance
B. Boxing fighting stance
C. Both

2. Does Kenpo encourage:
A. Hook
B. Reverse punch
C. Both

3. Is the most used kick:
A. Side kick
B. Round kick
C. Front kick

4. Is the Jab performed w/:
A. Vertical fist
B. Horizontal fist
C. Both

5. Are the joint techniques applied to:
A. Large joints
B. Small joints
C. Both

6. Does Kenpo achieve power through:
A. Shoulders
B. Hips
C. Both

7. Is Kenpo sparring:
A. Moderate contact
B. Light contact
C. No contact
D. All of the Above

8. What does it mean:
A. To japanese to be Chinese
B. Too Chinese to be Japanese
C. Have a Jukitsu twist

Thanks (in advance) for the clarification.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/29/05 09:24 AM

Too bad we did not have more time out in CA. It would have been fun to discuss our respective arts a bit more. I can only speak for AKK, but here are some answers:

1. Does Kenpo encourage:
A. Sideways fighting stance
B. Boxing fighting stance
C. Both


C. Beginners are taught the sideways stance, but as you progress through the system, the boxing stance becomes more prevalent.

2. Does Kenpo encourage:
A. Hook
B. Reverse punch
C. Both


C. Reverse punch is shown first, but the hook is used quite a bit further on in the system.

3. Is the most used kick:
A. Side kick
B. Round kick
C. Front kick


C. All used fairly equally, all shown at white belt level.

4. Is the Jab performed w/:
A. Vertical fist
B. Horizontal fist
C. Both


C. Verticals are typically used to the face (nose), and horizontals are used to the neck and below. Backfist is the primary "jab" in AKK, though.

5. Are the joint techniques applied to:
A. Large joints
B. Small joints
C. Both


C.

6. Does Kenpo achieve power through:
A. Shoulders
B. Hips
C. Both


B. Taught as primarily through the hips.

7. Is Kenpo sparring:
A. Moderate contact
B. Light contact
C. No contact
D. All of the Above


D. Depends on your rank and school.
Posted by: Bushi_no_ki

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/29/05 01:43 PM

The only place I find myself not quite in agreement with Matt is 6. I would say both, depending on the technique, although hips are used more often, about 60% of the time. A technique in which shoulders are the source of power would be Hooking Wings. Other than that, My answers would be the same for all other questions.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/29/05 01:43 PM

Now there we go...just what I was loking for: some specific characteristics.

So I know that some of the differences between Kenpo & mine (Shito-ryu) are:

1. We never fight sideways
2. We rarely use a hook (but we have a hooked back-fist)
4. We don't use back-fist as a primary jab but it has it's place
6. Our source of power is the hips. It's the "power broker" between the earth & the opponent.

Thanks (So kids, isn't this what the forum is for after all?)
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/29/05 01:49 PM

Quote by Bushi_no_ki -

Quote:

The only place I find myself not quite in agreement with Matt is 6. I would say both, depending on the technique, although hips are used more often, about 60% of the time.




Bushi, I agree with you there. The 60% figure was why I said "primarily" through the hips. But the shoulders are used as well. Good call.
Posted by: Bushi_no_ki

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/30/05 10:18 PM

The main point is that many of the "Kenpo" styles that spell with an n are American/Hawaiian born systems, very much hybrid in nature. There is no one way in Modern Kenpo. There are several ways.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/31/05 09:49 AM

Now there we go...just what I was loking for: some specific characteristics.

So I know that some of the differences between Kenpo & mine (Shito-ryu) are:

1. We never fight sideways
2. We rarely use a hook (but we have a hooked back-fist)
4. We don't use back-fist as a primary jab but it has it's place
6. Our source of power is the hips. It's the "power broker" between the earth & the opponent.

Thanks (So kids, isn't this what the forum is for after all?)

That is a striking comparison in the difference and thought of Shorin-ryu and Kenpo/Kempo (Maybe not Kempo all Tode could be called or was once called Chinese Fist way on Ryu-Island). I find it odd that you say never fight side ways when your most popular fighting Kata Tekki and use of technique tai-subaki. I guess never is a big word and you really meant rarely. I've seen Shorin-ryu Blizting hand attacks/sparring that are to the side of the opponent driving him with body and head shots.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 10/31/05 12:08 PM

Sideways as in standing w/ your L or R side to your opponent. We prefer a more standard stance/appraoch similar to a boxer's stance.

Tai sabaki (body-shifting) is often accomplished @ a 45 degree angle or perpendicular to the attack. This is not standing sideways.

You often see this sideways stance in open tournaments by competitors who believe that it offers a smaller target & utilize jumping or step-over side-kicks as their primary kick.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 11/01/05 10:47 AM

OK I see but isn't tai-sabaki still sometimes approached slightly from side even if 45 degrees not directly in front? Sometime in that position you can do a cross over leg technique to kick the knee/instep, sweep, or osoto-gari after a stuning hand strike to take down the assailant. This is like the crab like/Tekki like technique I speak of in both systems. Though they start theirs with a volume of strikes moving side ways.

So you start in a boxer like stance or modified Zenkuts stance, this also the case in Kenpo some version perfer this stance because its better suited for offense 2 hands
attacks, (though more body is exposes). In Goju its the side stance until you get into mid-range then modified sanchin/Zenkuts stance for inclosed two hand stuff.

Question do U never show transtions in stance say for throws or ducking under do ever go into modified Kiba/Shiko dachi? Or do you bob and weave? We do both.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 11/01/05 12:44 PM

It's all transition. Bobbing & weaving can put your head in line w/ your opponent's knee/kick & will always put you off-balance (head is not over the center of balance).

A good fighter will take you down in the direction you bob/weave. Tai sabaki (body shifting) keeps your body below your head thus ensuring good balance & center of gravity.

My belief of why boxers bob & weave is that they have gloves that prevent them from blocking (deflecting) rapidly. Blocking (deflecting) while moving out of the line of attack (tai sabaki) is better than just moving your head.

(I could go on & on but that's for another thread)
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 11/01/05 12:50 PM

Quote by hedkikr -

Quote:

Blocking (deflecting) while moving out of the line of attack (tai sabaki) is better than just moving your head.




I wouldn't say that is true all the time. Sometimes body shots or the clinch can be set up very easily by bobbing/weaving. Depends on what you are trying to do.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Characteristics of Kenpo (w/ an N) - 11/01/05 01:24 PM

I agree they both have merits pending what you are trying to do, I like bobbing and weaving because I still have both hands free to counter with. The same with Tai-sabuki, but its usually a elbow and and hand.

One of the things I question about Kenpo is their light strikes to lift the chin or arm for the heavier strikes. In Goju we hit the chin up hard with a soft hand but still its possible a Ko, then strike the exposed throat or whatever. In Kenpo like boxing sometimes they hit lightly on purpose,with theroy of surprise the assailant with a heavy shot that he thought might be a light again. We grab and push and pull rather the lightly lift and tap.

Shorin-ryu does seem to be more linera with few hooking strikes stressed. Would you agree with that, in this comparison?

What I like about some Kenpo is their wild swinging elbow attacks, followed by a back knuckle and their tiger motion. And inside hook kicks to the grion sneak stuff. Their fancy names for their combos like the "The Dance of Death". Whoa!