Goju Groundfighting
Posted by: SANCHIN31
Goju Groundfighting - 08/13/05 06:12 PM
My instructor has incorporated groundfighting in with our regular goju curriculum. Our school is a unique goju school in that we are only somewhat traditional and only teach a few kata as well.
He has a background in wrestling and is very good at his groundfighting techniques.I've been doing groundfighting for a few years now with him and I enjoy it.We also have two man drills that go through alot of the groundfighting (groundfighting kata if you will).
We do alot of techniques including takedowns, guards,trips,locks,chokes,etc...
My question is what do you think of this kind of curriculum? Is it straying away from what goju is about? Or is it right on track with what a good self defense program should have?
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: Goju Groundfighting - 08/13/05 06:29 PM
Whilst it sounds very interesting and suitiable for a solid self defense program,
I would have a problem calling it goju ryu, as it would seem a progression into something else Brian, which isnt meant as a bad thing by the way but just looking at it 'classically'.
Posted by: SANCHIN31
Re: Goju Groundfighting - 08/13/05 06:45 PM
We call it
All American Goju Karate.We are not associated with any other schools and are not biased against non-Americans. Some people recently thought this based on the name.
Progression is what it's all about,no?
This is what I feel keeps it from being traditional goju to me and I've been to two other goju schools.
1) Not all kata are learned (or even known)
2) Groundfighting
3) Four belts. white,green,brown,and black
4) We speak and count in english
I ran into some problems when I visited other goju schools.
"Your this belt and you don't know this kata or this move!"
comments? questions?
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: Goju Groundfighting - 08/13/05 07:02 PM
LOL Brian,
I am not qualified to make serious comments or judgements on what any one does, however all american piece in the name does imply that your dojo is independant from the traditional goju ryu, which is fine in my book. However teaching goju ryu without the senior instructors knowing the full kata of the system would seem a little wrong IMO.
progression, I can honestly say I prefer regression..................................... LOL LOL
I do like your belt system, makes total sense to me !
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Goju Groundfighting - 08/13/05 07:35 PM
Well, brother, you are definitely going to get some opinions on this.
As practiced for utility, I think it sounds like a great self defense program.
As a static embodiment of Goju, it may be lacking somewhat. However, if I remember correctly, wasn't Goju a combination of different arts to begin with? I think that by keeping the art functional, you guys are very well keeping to the values of what Miyagi (sp?) had in mind.
However, if you are trying to maintain the style of Goju, you may find others not as accepting. Depends on what you want out of the art.
Posted by: BuDoc
Re: Goju Groundfighting - 08/13/05 08:19 PM
I can't speak intelligently on what is or what is not Goju.
I will say this. Okinawan karate in general does address all ranges of combat. It would be ridiculous to assume that the old masters never considered what happens if you should fall accidently, or be taken down. Would they have just turned turtle and quit fighting??
The answer of course is NO WAY!!
I try to stop thinking along the lines of technique and more along the lines of
principles .
Certain principles that you have learned while standing or in the clinch will also work on the ground.
Also it is important to remember your paradigm. While Okinawan Karate in general has answers for what to do should you be taken to ground, it wasn't really designed to
stay there.
Accidently fall, get swept or taken down... defend/release and get up!!
From a modern point of view, I'll say this. If your style in general does not at least address being on the ground, or your instructor never learned it to show it to you, You definately have a responsibility to supplement. Makes no difference whether you use som BJJ, wrestling,or other art.
Is it still Goju or American Goju or anything else you care to call it?? Sure it is. You just give your students another tool in the bag.
Page
Posted by: butterfly
Re: Goju Groundfighting - 08/13/05 08:37 PM
Sanchin,
I guess it is always subjective. If you have no concerns how you are identified outside the organization you belong to (even if it is an organization of one) then don't sweat it.
Practice as well as you can and take away what you can....and if this is sufficient to you, at least in the interim, who cares about a name. A rose by any other name smells as sweet.
And I will give kudos to your instructor for not reinventing the wheel. He gave his nod to the standup portion in the style's name, if nothing else. Better than calling it James-ryu, or Smith-kan Karate.
-B
Posted by: McSensei
Re: Goju Groundfighting - 08/13/05 08:37 PM
From what you say it sounds very traditional to me. It's been said, by more knowledgable men than me, that in the old days students learnt very few kata. I see nothing wrong in this as long as the kata used are diverse, to give a broader idea of different fighting systems.
The belt system I like, very "olde worlde."
The only thing not to my taste is the groundfighting. Though it depends where you go with it.
If it's with the intention of keeping the fight there, then I'd say, "mmmmmm."
If it's to get back up then that, I would say, is traditional too.
Posted by: SANCHIN31
Re: Goju Groundfighting - 08/13/05 09:52 PM
Thanks for all the replies!
We are the only ones in our organization so that's not a concern.
When addressing the groundfighting the idea is to be able to defend yourself there against a good grappler or wrestler if you are taken down,but recovering upright as soon as possible not staying there.
The reason of just a few kata is as thought. There are so many things in kata one can spend many years on just one.Why learn/teach so many? Other than just to keep them alive?
The kata are the taikyoku series, empi, sanchin, seiunchin, sanseryu,bo kata,and tensho taught in that order.
I am partucularly set on learning naihanchi,but it won't be a part of the curriculum for a long while.
Posted by: GojuRyuboy13
Re: Goju Groundfighting - 08/13/05 10:34 PM
Well Well Well, what have we here?
naw j/k but seriously that's cool that you are learning more groundfighting, it's really fun stuff, I do wish my school would work on it a little more.
OW, it's more like get taken down, defend and attack to get on top, not defend/release and get up. We practice bunkai and kata applications for such things. If you're taken down than yes it becomes a fight to get back up because you have more of an advantage being up than down. Sometimes you can't always get up, wuppty do than wrestle anybody can wrestle. Use your head.
At my school there is only white, green, brown, and black. Ofcourse you get stripes on each of your belts before black. I don't know if that's traditional or not, I think it makes more sense than having every color in a crayon box in one room.
Goju, doesn't really have a lot of ground work basicully because we intend on hitting you before anything else. Ofcourse there is takedowns and throws, locks, and such but those come later, and with little practice. Besides, how many throws, locks, and takedowns do you intend on learning. Or even using for that matter.
My school is very traditional though. Everything we do is based off of tradition pretty much.
Posted by: GojuRyuboy13
Re: Goju Groundfighting - 08/13/05 10:47 PM
My Sensei, and his Sensei, I believe, think that if you at least learn the movements of the kata you can than work on learning the secrets. You will learn all of the katas as long as you keep attending, ofcourse you might be a 5th degree BB before a couple are shown to you.
The more advanced the kata is the harder some of the movments are so they can be taught sometimes to more capable students than old fogies. No offense to anyone. Also, to like ya said, keep em alive, and fresh, and as part of Goju that is in you.
Our kata system goes from the fukyu katas, which are the basic, to the Gikisai dai ichi, dai ni, seifa, seyunchin, shisochin, sanseiryu, sepai, kururunfa, sesan, pychuran, and than sanchin and tensho katas. (my spelling is probably messed up on some of em, and the order as well. I might have forgotten one I am not sure)
But yep,
Posted by: CVV
Re: Goju Groundfighting - 08/14/05 04:32 AM
Quote:
My question is what do you think of this kind of curriculum? Is it straying away from what goju is about? Or is it right on track with what a good self defense program should have?
I would say it's not Goju-ryu at it's fullest.
It is clear that you are not offering the entire Goju-ryu curriculum of kata + you are offering kata not related to the traditional Goju-ryu teachings. From that point of view you are offering a hybrid system, with much emphasis on Goju-ryu kata.
Is it straying away from what Goju-ryu is about ? To investigate SD technique and principles inherent to Goju-ryu you're more complete if you know the entire kata curriculum and work with this entire system. This will lead to more academic knowledge around goju-ryu and the training principles like hojo-undo and kakie. But this academic knowledge is not necesarily real knowledge. In order to have real knowledge one must investigate conflict and apply/test his academic knowledge. I think that the difference between now and 100 years ago is this understanding of conflict and it's place in training. I can perform all 12 goju-ryu kata and know applications to all the moves, yet if I am asked to demonstrate my art I will usually restrict to sesan or sanseru. As far as fighting, I limit to striking, disbalancing, sabaki, small joint manipulation (fingers and thumb). My favorite technique is to hit the throath and attack PP on the arm, inside just above the elbow.
So how far am I in my journey in goju-ryu ? Academicly great but real life knowledge pretty dim.
It is good that you investigate other kata (enpi,naifanchi) and weapon kata (bo) and put emphasis into submission fighting. It will help to understand conflict.
I would encourage you and your group to investigate and study the other goju-ryu kata if the oppertunity presents itself. The most important however is that you are working in the spirit of karate and judging from what I have read from you, I do not doubt the quality of the studies presented by your group nor your ability. I have no problem
with the name nor with the curriculum. There are to many that think they posses the real knowledge but have academic knowledge at best.
Posted by: SANCHIN31
Re: Goju Groundfighting - 08/15/05 02:58 AM
Good points CVV. Thanks for all the replies!
We'll just keep doing what we know,until we know better.