Sanchin kata

Posted by: Crash

Sanchin kata - 08/10/05 09:02 PM

My style does not have this kata because Wado kai doesn't have any Naha te katas. I still find it very interesting and think it looks benificial to learn. There is a lady in our class who is a shodan in goju ryu and I asked her if she could show it to me, she said she would be happy to teach it to me so thats awsome! but I don't know what level it is normally taught at, I'm a green belt but I think I could take on this kata since I have someone teaching me as aposed to a book or video. Thoughts? comments?
Posted by: SANCHIN31

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/10/05 11:01 PM

Sure, she could teach you the kata. That's great! It's taught at different levels,but I think it's considered a beginner kata in most schools.
Tensho is considered a beginner kata as well,but I wasn't shown until shodan.
Whatever level kata,whatever rank you are,if you beleive it will add to your art do it.
Posted by: Isshinryukid4life

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/10/05 11:42 PM

The Sanchin kata differes from style to style,None the less,I believe the Sanchin kata to be the most difficult kata to master.

Btw It's alway's a good idead to practice the Sanchin kata after you've completed all of your excercises in the dojo/dojang.




Posted by: SANCHIN31

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/10/05 11:45 PM

Quote:

Btw It's alway's a good idead to practice the Sanchin kata after you've completed all of your excercises in the dojo/dojang.






Yes! Because if you do it right,you won't have the energy to do much else.
Posted by: bo-ken

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/11/05 12:15 AM

I really think thats great I wish I knew some one to teach me Sanchin. I could learn it from a video but as you said Crash its better to learn from someone.
Posted by: JeremyK

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/11/05 09:07 AM

You could also try picking up the Uechi-ryu version of sanchin. I do both Goju and Uechi. You can find some helpful videos at http://www.uechi-ryu.com.

Jeremy
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/11/05 09:50 AM

Sanchin Kata is a basic kata, at your level Green belt is a good start, you know the basic stances, blocks and strikes.

Though its a basci kata it is a life time presuit, it is the begining of Iron body, developing chi concept, and placing it where you want it. Enough for now, it is a good basic kata to build strength and overall health. Its believed.

I teach it to the elderly and depress young to relieve stress, through breathing, Isometric and meditation.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/11/05 10:44 AM

I agree sanchin cannot be viewed as a 'complex' kata, however it is a very ESSENTIAL practise as has been stated.

It is considered an extremly fundamental form in many many arts.
Posted by: SANCHIN31

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/11/05 11:11 AM

Any of you guys practice sanchin while someone beats on you?

How is the uechi-ryu version diffferent? I know two versions,Myagi sanchin and Higaonna sanchin.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/11/05 12:04 PM

it is performed faster and with open hand techniques i believe.

I practise the Miyagi version I beleive (goju ryu style).

We dont currently beat each other although I am encouraging this practise along with slightly more dynamic breating. which is how I used to train the form.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/11/05 12:05 PM

Are you referring to shime?

Quote:

Any of you guys practice sanchin while someone beats on you?

How is the uechi-ryu version diffferent? I know two versions,Myagi sanchin and Higaonna sanchin.


Posted by: SANCHIN31

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/11/05 12:07 PM

Quote:

Are you referring to shime?

Quote:

Any of you guys practice sanchin while someone beats on you?

How is the uechi-ryu version diffferent? I know two versions,Myagi sanchin and Higaonna sanchin.







Shime?
Posted by: harlan

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/11/05 12:11 PM

shime....an online blurb:

http://www.burlingtonkarateandkobudo.ca/sanchin.htm
Posted by: SANCHIN31

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/11/05 12:15 PM

Shime...ok!
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/11/05 12:58 PM

Uechi-ryu completly open hand and no turns.

Theres also a different breathing method.

Goju Closed then open hand and turns.

Both started the striking/kicking or beating on as you called it and breaking things on you after you developed the concentration and focus that Iron body starts to demand.
Posted by: JeremyK

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/11/05 02:04 PM

Yeah, it's standard in Uechi-ryu sanchin. Basically you open for the kata or sometimes it's at the end or during. Your instructor will lightly hit you to test your muscle focus and balance. It is not supposed to be painful.. though after years of conditioning some people try it with louisville sluggers... but I'm only a green belt and it probably takes at least a decade to be able to do that.

Basically the kata is done open handed at 'normal' to 'fast' speed. There are two turns and then some mid area strike and grabs and then the circles (similar to goju but different) and you do one to the left/right/center always turning to whichever foot is in the lead.
Posted by: Crash

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/11/05 04:34 PM

Thanks for responding everyone! I wasn't sure if it was an advanced or basic kata. She's going to start me on it next week, I'm really looking forward to it!
Posted by: SANCHIN31

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/11/05 04:42 PM

Quote:

Thanks for responding everyone! I wasn't sure if it was an advanced or basic kata. She's going to start me on it next week, I'm really looking forward to it!




Cool.Which version?
Posted by: Isshinryukid4life

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/11/05 05:26 PM

Quote:

Thanks for responding everyone! I wasn't sure if it was an advanced or basic kata. She's going to start me on it next week, I'm really looking forward to it!


Quote:






Crash,If its not to much trouble,You could make a vid of yourself doing the Sanchin kata,& Maybe we could take a look see
Posted by: Ironfoot

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/11/05 06:01 PM

Isshinryu's version must be the Miyagi version. Understandable, since our founder, Tatsuo Shimabuku studied under him. Yes, we get tested. And I've seen more than "slaps".
Posted by: Crash

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/11/05 07:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Thanks for responding everyone! I wasn't sure if it was an advanced or basic kata. She's going to start me on it next week, I'm really looking forward to it!




Cool.Which version?




Well, she studied goju ryu, so it will be the goju ryu version of sanchin.
Posted by: whippet

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/12/05 09:04 AM

I have been practsing Shito Ryu Shukokai for over 18 years and only in the last four years I have I actually learnt Sanchin. Our version involves the turns etc, and not the straight line version as is common with Goju.

With regards to be it being basic, the moves are but the kata in essence isn't as you need to focus on the moves, your breathing and your stancework. Combine that with "Sanchin Testing" or "Shime" and your brain has a lot to deal with.

I have introduced this to my grading syllabus at brown belt level but am teaching it from green onwards. The earlier you start, the more practice you get.

The joke in our dojo is that it is a "female only" kata as it involved doing more than one thing and men can't multi task (lol).

Regards

Steve
Posted by: CVV

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/12/05 09:33 AM

On subject of the turns within samchin kata.
It is not common in Goju ryu to execute only forward backward. Descendant of Jundokan and IOGKF will do so, the other factions (also on Okinawa) will use the turn.
Referred to as Higashionna (turns) or Miyagi(no turns) sanchin.
The reason why Miyagi sensei changed was apperntly to train the back muscles (by stepping backward).
In the beginning, sanchin would not have standard format. One would start walking the sequence and at the end turn or step back. Eventually concensus was made upon the enbusen, resulting in different formats 3f turn - 3f turn - 1f - 2b or 5f turn - 3f turn - 1f - 2b or 3f turn - 1f turn - 1f - 2b or 3f - 2b.

Whippet, you study Shito ryu. In regard to Naha-te kata, are they all accrideted to Higashiaonna - Miyagi or also other sources. Is Nepai(Gokenki) considered Naha-te ?
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/13/05 12:59 AM


I do not study any karate system, but most of the traditional Chinese systems, especially the southern systems (from which the karate systems can trace thier roots) have "sanchin" kata, though many do not call it as such, and every system have thier own names and distinct methods. The only southern Chinese system that I know of that actually call it "sanchin" is the 5 Ancestors System from Fukien Province.

I notice that the karate sanchin kata is a lot shorter than the Chinese versions and also no lateral extensions of the hands and hardly any downward movements, and less double-handed movements, except for the double-palm (butterfly-palm) thrusts at the very end and no twisting of the torso. (For the advanced karateka reading this, try holding any sanchin pose (not too tense) and slowly twist your torso a little bit as you breath in and out and see the difference in the build-up of energy)

And by the way, the butterfly-palm thrusts are done at the end for a reason; the double-handedness is meant to balance back (re-set if you like) the internal energy that was intensely concentrated alternately left and then right in the early part of the kata.

All this may be too advanced and meaningless for you, but just something to think about years from now. And one last thing; if at all possible, keep your mental concentration on the skin of your body during the out-breath. Do not tense too much in the beginning; it may be macho looking, but will actually impede your progress.

Count yourself lucky for having someone offering to teach you; imagine what it was like for Higaonna and Miyagi who probably had to beg thier Chinese teachers for lessons; given the prejudice the old Chinese had for the Japanese people, then and even now, it was a wonder they (Higaonna / Miyagi) were taught anything at all.

Tell us how you get on.
Posted by: JoelM

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/13/05 01:48 AM

(trying) to be helpful:

http://www.fujianbaihe.com/fujianbaihe/index.html

Scroll down to San Zhan...
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/13/05 04:45 PM

the sanchin i practise has 7 steps/ 2turns in total, im sure there is a connection or some meaning as 3 conflicts (Mind, body, Spirit), ie 3 plus 3 plus 3 is 9 (0r 3 x 3), anyone shed any light on this aspect of the form, or the meaning of the number 9 in any of the relevant religions ?
Posted by: McSensei

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/13/05 04:51 PM

A certain type of mushroom washed down with Woods rum turns the No. 9 into 3 sixes. Book of revelation and all that...
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/13/05 05:51 PM

my apologies, I was going a little 'deep' there eh !
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Sanchin kata - 08/14/05 10:38 PM

Quote:

(trying) to be helpful:

http://www.fujianbaihe.com/fujianbaihe/index.html

Scroll down to San Zhan...





Thanks.

There are indeed a lot of similarities between the 5 Ancestors System and what Martin Watts does, which I believe happened in Fukien Province, which is one province a lot of old Okinawan masters went for thier seminal training. So, it is more of a historical accident that karate turned out the way it is.

White Crane or 'Baihe' therefore appears to be the common ancestor here.

People from other Chinese ethnic groups refer to this "style" of Kung Fu (striking hands held tightly to the body, short range movements with emphasis on upper body power, hence the need for dynamic tension training) as 'Fukien Fist' and other common styles such as Choy Li Fatt, Hung Gar as Cantonese Fist. Other southern ethnic groups such as the Hakkas, TeoChew also have thier distinct style of MA.