What kicks?

Oops .

Well you'll find that the kicks in TKD are very similar to particularly Shotokan Karate. TKD is apparently a semi-derivative of the Shotokan style.

So if you know that TKD doesn't just train flashy kicks, what makes you think that Karateka don't train flashy kicks?

I'll be willing to bet that if you go around and rephrase this topic as "Karateka can't do flashy kicks", you'll get a big rebuttal.

It's not the art that matters, it's the individual who makes the difference. You choose what kicks you want to use and what you don't, no art can force you to use flashy kicks in a situation where practical ones are required.

In fact, when I did my grading for black belt in WTF TKD, I did only one single flashy kick (360 roundhouse). Other than that it was just roundhouses, front kicks and side kicks. Even the Koryo pattern (for 1st Dan) doesn't include flashy kicks. The closest you get is a jumping front kick in Pal Jang (required for 1st Kup), which you can readily find in many Karate styles.

Leo,

I looked at some TKD schools in my area, and they do in fact require these kicks, not just at black belt, but at lower ones, too.

For instance, in order to advance to blue belt, one must break a board with a jump spin back kick.

I have this weird thing I do: When I don't know something, but would like to know, I do some research. I also ask questions of people who would most likely know the answer.

If you can't answer my question, that's fine. Just stop putting words in my mouth. Thank you.

Well, I certainly agree with asking questions.

I'm surprised and disappointed that TKD schools in your area make it a grading requirement to do flashy kicks and board breaks. Perhaps TKD is not as practical where you live as I thought.

Good luck with whatever you are searching for.

P.S. My apologies if I misinterpreted what you were saying about TKD and Karate, no harm intended. From my experience with friends in Karate, they train just as well at flashy kicking even up to black belt. Also, grading syllabi will vary depending on the organisation/school/instructor, not just the style.

Post something that makes sense or don't post at all!

ZZ, your original question. I know in all Okinawan Karate styles that I've seen, spinning kicks are not even practiced muchless tested for. We goofed around with them before and after class, but that was it. the fancy-shmansy techniques are mostly used in some competiton oriented dojos. also, they are an effective recruitment tool (sometimes for mcdojos) used in demos to impress pre-adults.

I'm used to seeing these in non-comp Karate styles:
front,side,RH, kick with knee, kick to knee, sweep,cresent,rear,jumping snap kick (although it's more of a low skip than a high jump).

another interesting note: the only kicks of this list which do not appear in trad. kata is, rear kick and RH.

hope that gives an idea...oh heads up- someone from a sport karate and/or mcdojo will disagree with me.

Kintama,

Thank you! That's the kind of helpful, informative response I was hoping to find.

Ditto on what Kintama said. I do goju-no kicks above the waist,maybe stomach.
I was witness to a kempo/gung-fu blackbelt test,they had to do jump spinning kicks and the like.

When I started Okinawa kenpo, the flashiest kick we did was the jumping,spinning crecent kick. Yes, it was required. My instructor has since removed it as a requirement (thank goodness) but teaches it for fun.

My style do no jumping kicks whatsoever. The only jumping kick that I personally throw in is tobi mae geri. This is, as kintama said, more of a skip to cover distance rather than for height.
The previous style I trained in, it was a requirement of BB grading. We started learning them at 3rd kyu. Tobi, mae, mawashi, yoko and ushiro geri were the required kicks. Yuk!

What karate does for kicking is so varied.
The older Okinawan styles might not have used much more than front kicks (as evidenced in the older kata), and even the performance changed as systems of study changed. The later Okinawan styles seemed to incoroporate other styles of kicking, perhaps from their Chinese origins (such as Goju's).

The Isshinryu I practice (originated on Okinawa, but today quite American) included almost the entire range of Okinawan kicking, but also included much of the changes, roundhouse kicks, spinning kicks. Jumping kicks were incorporated in the Okinawan kata of our system.

My instructors were very pragmatic, and students were encouraged to move to whatever kicking range of practice they could perform. I follow the same pratice today, I believe its in the interest of best exercise and increasing one's range of flexability.

It is true TKD incorporates a range of kicking the Okinawan styles do not traditinally explore, but then the Okinawan styles incorporate an entire range of kicking TKD can't do because they don't practice them either, and you can't do what you don't practice.

Then again I consider most TKD just the middle range of extreme kicking, the Northern Chinese stylists have access to a wider range of kicking techinques than TKD possesses (such as butterfly kicks, etc.). Then again the Chinese also specialize in lower kicking techniques (Tam Tuie) than the rest too.

But modern TKD (from Korea) has done what everyone else has done and 'borrowed' from the Chinese too.

For shere practicality, the range of Okinawan kicking, to break/dislocate legs, smash inner thighs, hip joints and lower ribs, including the toe kicking of the Ueichi Stylist which slightly parallels the toe/boot kicking of the Tam Tui'e Chinese stylist) is quite functional, and sufficient for me, especially as most of the Okinawan kicking is not youth dependent, allowing trecherous oldsters to keep going.

Once again Mr. Smith succinctly conveys thoughts that most never could.

Nice post Victor.

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The Isshinryu I practice (originated on Okinawa, but today quite American) included almost the entire range of Okinawan kicking, but also included much of the changes, roundhouse kicks, spinning kicks. Jumping kicks were incorporated in the Okinawan kata of our system.

There's no evidence of this,Unless it's happening in your area.


My instructors were very pragmatic, and students were encouraged to move to whatever kicking range of practice they could perform. I follow the same pratice today, I believe its in the interest of best exercise and increasing one's range of flexability.

Victor,I assume that You'er speaking of this as a self defense technique,If that's tha case I would have to respectfully disagree.;)

Let's hear from some of the people who studied Japanese styles of Karate too. I'm interested in seeing whether their kicks differ from the Okinawan styles.

Btw, I did not mean to flame, just ensure TKD had its own voice here too, considering this is involving a comparison with TKD.

Isshinryukid4life,

First in Chinto Kata and Kusanku Kata jumping front kicks are included, as my instructors got it from Shimabuku. I was taught two different methods for kick execution and use both to this day. Of course there is great variance how Isshinryu was transmitted by the founder and I could understand how some Isshinryu might be using different answers.

The roundhouse kick has been on Mr. Lewis' chart 2 for the 32 years I've been practicing the system, but chatting with others in Isshinryu on the nets I've found multiple variations of what charts are being taught. Likewise our chart contains side kicks and front thrust kicks on the floor. I prefer the depth of kicking my instructors shared.

For the spinning back kick, I'm sure it was a result of opent tournmanet sparring. We were taught them (as well as spinning back fists) and utilized them as our talents indicated. For the record the spinning back kick can be seen in kusanku kata as an extension/interpretation of the crescent kick drop to the floor, which can also be interpreted as a butterfly kick. So the inherent movement still is a part of the Isshinryu system regardless of the source.

As regards "My instructors were very pragmatic, and students were encouraged to move to whatever kicking range of practice they could perform. I follow the same pratice today, I believe its in the interest of best exercise and increasing one's range of flexability". I'm referring to the entire range of karate activity, including sport and physical development.

Much of the range of kicking in discussion is nothing I would teach for self defense. But that does not preclude interest, fun in competition or personal choice either. And just because I can't do something for self defensse does not mean there isn't somebody who can't do it, even if I feel it's foolish.

I cast no aspersion on any of the Isshinryu ways, but I can only practice it as I was taught, and share it as my instructors shared it with me.

The style I train is referred to, by the club itself, as "Traditional Japanese Karate."
Where they get this from I don't quite know, as out of the 10
kata practised within the system 5 are Shotokan and 5 are from Goju. Therefore, it is in actual fact a combination of both Japanese and Okinawan, karate.
The founder of this style (Kancho Robert Sullivan, Go Kan Ryu ) believed he had taken the best of both and combined them into a very basic, (we don't actually have that many individual techniques) but effective fighting system.

Victor,
We practice the shotokan version of Kusanku (Kanku-dai)
and the problem I have with this kata is the jumping kick toward the end. If katas were designed to be realistic fighting systems why on Earth is this kick even in the kata.
In Shotokan this is not merely a tobi mae geri, which could have a practical use (covering ground), it is a nidan geri which I cannot see as practical.
Or is this kick (nidan geri) one of Itosus' or Funakoshis' disguises?

By a ni(dan) geri, do you mean 2 front snap kicks, one after the other? That's what I do at the end of Kusanku, not a jumping kick like in Chinto. It's much harder to throw the second kick as soon as your first kicking foot hits the floor than jumping up and throwing both.

AKK does teach some "flashy" kicks, but the ones taught early are strictly power moves (eg, adding momentum because you have the opening), and later on kicks like a spinning crescent are taught. I haven't seen any aerial kicks in AKK though.

McSensei,

The problem isn't with the jumping kick(s) at the end of Kusanku(Kanku-Dai) but how you're viewing it. There are any number of uses which are practical, including at the lowest level, instead of the first part of the kick, stepping forward and then throwing the 2nd kick.

Unfortunately trying to describe the range of applications within the technique series usage is extremly hard with just words, and, it really depends on which variation one is using, as I focus on the Isshinryu version I was taught, there are likely some differences in the variation you use, and the application potential would be different.

First as long as you have enough technique to stop an attack, it isn't necessary to worry about each movement's potential appication. The kick can be just exercise to strengthen your legs, and that's fine too.

Wrenching out every possible application potential is a lifetime study just for the art, after all any one technique in itself should be enough to counter almost any attack, if you're really good at it, and that's a lifetime study too.

I understand potential uses for the double jumping kicks (none of which are for samuari on horesback), and there are a few students that I would focus on that potential, but for the rest I'd focus on the exercise to build leg strength.

Just a few thoughts,

By Ni-dan geri, the way I've been taught, I mean the following;
From migi zenkutsu dachi. (Rt.Fwd stance)* Launch forward kicking chudan mae geri, before landing perform jodan mae geri with other leg. Obviously the height of this kick can be varied to a more sensible level, but even performed a lot lower it is still pretty difficult.
The ni-dan roughly translates as 2 level.
* Not being patronizing just not sure if we use the same terminology.

There is a big difference in TKD and a system like Shotokan, or Goju-ryu. Basic and perfection of basic combinaions are stressed with Goju & Shotokan. Whereas learning to do the split kicks and jump kicks in combination is tressed in TKD. I saw the matrix front kick in 1985 a TKD 6th dan did up a heavy bag. I was not impressed, it didn't look very praciticle. Now as a young brown - black belt, I was able do all kind of things, I was flexible. I can still some of the fancy kicks but when I do I ask myself why? There are so many techinque that take less energy and are more accurate.

Thats 1 of the things that I disliked is TKD for Nidan up you learn all kinds of basic built upon like the jump round kick & jsbk & rk before hit the ground. It does take some fitness to do that but how praciticle is it for street applications.

Whereas Goju stresses swiping elbow, back fist, groin slap or tear, palm strike sweep & front kick in combo. Shotokan the side elbow backfist, reverse punch, & front kick (that thrust like a side kick).

I often am amused at my ex-wife's son doing his axe kick thinking thats impressive, he is flexible but how practicle is it in a street encounter.

Now the fact that they can kick fast to the head, its really fast low. I remember when we both young bb, this Mudukwan-do player had a front leg rk to the grion that almost impossible to block by hand. You had to block it with your sanchin or legs, it was too low and fast otherwise.

on the subject of nidan geri, which I think is the only 'jumping' kick practised in the majority of shorin ryu.

My thoughts ar ethat the kick is designed for the following -

to 'blast' out of a corner

to fake a low kick and contact with the second kick

Im sur ethere is a better reason, but this is what my understanding of the technique is thus far

i have studied a few styles of karate and TKD over the years and have found that most of what both teach to be very similar . as has been stated above by a few people each stlye places different emphasis on specific techniques over others. in TKD this is clearly kicking techniques. because of this emphasis on longer ranged combat it makes sense that they would develope and concentrate on kicking to a larger and "flashier" extent.

throughout my training (about eightish years) i have found that most styles of karate teach advanced kicking techniques but dont nessesarily use them nor grade people on them until much later on.. the less experienced TKD student will have beter balance and ability for kicking earlier and progress further quicker than the Karate student as far as kicking is concerned.

ZombieZero I am a Nidan in Shotokan.

we dont do any jumping kicks in shotokan since balance is already reduced balancing on one foot

To be the devil's advocate, I have seen a very old article in Black Belt where Teruo Chinen (Goju Master) was practicing jumping back kicks and spinning kicks.

the real shotokan only have 3 belts, white, brown and black. to be honest i only spent over 6 months of doing it. it was brutal 8,000 punches, 8000 kicks, 100 times of kata, under 1 freak hour. yes there are kick in shotokan. each moves each hand techniques, leg techniques are very dangerous. it comprises of power and speed. there are so much power in each movements that it is scary.. as for those people who u see doing ariel or jump side kick, Round house. those people are just bullshit. there are no such things in shotokan. there are step side kick (low kick) and side kick (it is the type of front kick that u turn to the side). i do respect those who trained or training in shotokan. it is one brutal art.

when i went for my sho-dan i did not need to do any "flashy kicks"! but now i do like to learn the more advance kicks!

we do, but they're pretty useful, I use spin kicks and junps alot in practice sparring, they're extremely effective and we are required to learn them

Gichin Funakoshi (Shotokan's founder) told: Train kihon correctly, but in fight it is little different.
Hey, at least in Brasil, the black belt does not require exceptional things, they focus on kihon, it means, firm stance, chudan geri, if u think that high kicks are beatyfull the masters do not!!!

Zombie,

It really boils down to your dojo. Some schools require useless kicks, some don't. I was taught a few pointless kicks, and had to perform them during my test but I wasn't graded poorly if I didn't perform them well. Personnally any kick requiring you to leave the ground or move your focus from your opponent are too risky for my blood. I rather kick no higher than the stomach.

In the TKD class I attended they required all those flashy kicks & board breaking. Even had them toss a board in the air & attempt to puch break it. Again to me....totally pointless. I'd rather have students break concrete...but oh well....to each his own.

Sensei