Bu (as in Budo )

Posted by: Sanchin

Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/08/05 11:10 AM

In funakoshis karate jutsu he states "Bu" makes up the characters of "Conflict", and "To Stop". Therefore Bu meaning "Stopping conflict" or "to stop conflict"

Other resources state "Bu" as meaning war, warrior, fight, fighter. Not even mention the "conflict" or "to stop" .

Question is, as an american with no real education of asian languages. What do I go by ?

Ever since the what style you do thread, ive been thinking about what I would call "the sum" of all my training within one statement, without causing any confusion. Karate-Do is how I live, while I was looking through karate jutsu I came across his explanation of Budo, and it just clicked... its perfect. So my style is "Karate Budo" the empty hand way of stopping conflict. This works as long as I go by funakoshis definition, but the others, it doesnt fit so well, Budo as in "stopping conflict" encompasses the whole of Mind, Body, and Soul, better than the definition of war, fighter, etc.. I just dont want to look like an idiot by defining Karate Budo as I have, and it be wrong. I imagine this is a problem alot of people face when using terms from other languages.
Posted by: butterfly

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/08/05 11:26 AM

Sanchin,
You are right about the language/culture thing and even the way others outside a given culture view terms. My suggestion is to stop trying to fit your view in how others, no matter how notable, have assigned their ideas into their practice, but to just do it and take what it gives you. Looks like you doing a good job already.

Martial arts studies are remarkable in their duality, but you see it everywhere in the west, though it doesn't have the philosophy behind it.

A policeman for instance, might practice all the "ju" stuff of his craft. Reality based gun fire drills and skills necessary to resolve bad situations and survice attacks from drugged out arrestees. However, that person may adopt a demeanor and social reponsibility to protect the puplic and may do volunteer work and generally show an appropriate sense of decorum in public. This is their job to stand out in the hopes of negating a law breaking event before it happens, simply by their presencen. This persons might also delve into cometition shooting that has only a cursory connection to reality weapons training.

And you look at this Martial person and wonder why he goes through all this eduacation and training. Well it is to be prepared and note the fact that he doesn't want the crap to hit the fan. But if it does, he does have his training to fall back on.

So stop the violence, if at all possible, before it starts. And if you can't do that, deal with it when it does.

Maybe not a lot of philosophy, but it is there if you look.

Warmest regards,

-B
Posted by: Sanchin

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/08/05 02:39 PM

So it is safe to assume I would be correct in saying "Karate Budo. The empty hand way to stop conflict."
??
Posted by: BuDoc

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/08/05 02:50 PM

Yes. I think that would do quite nicely.

Keep in mind that with kanji different symbols can mean the same thing. Funakoshis is just one example.

Try this: If you don't know English only Kanji, but you know the word "two" (as in the number 2). People around you are always using the word "too" or "to". They all sound the same two (sp) you.

Bunch of different symbols. Spelled, pretty closely, the same. Sound the same. Confusing? yeah.

Lots of times these things are lost in translation. Your interpretation works for you, and translates pretty well.

As for what kanji to use for it... I have no clue!

Page
Posted by: Kintama

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/08/05 03:06 PM

someone say they needed info?
kanji coming up... you can figure it out from these:
http://www.shotokai.com/imagenes/kanji/

p.s. BuDoc = 'Stop Doctor'? lol or maybe 'Stop! Doc'
Posted by: BuDoc

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/08/05 03:12 PM

Exactly. Either way I get the idea. I just pretend not to understand while I'm inserting the Foley catheter

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Posted by: MattJ

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/08/05 03:15 PM

Quote by BuDoc -

Quote:

I just pretend not to understand while I'm inserting the Foley catheter




OMG

*faints*
Posted by: Kintama

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/08/05 03:34 PM

That's actually not funny, Doc. I've had a gallstone before, and now that I think of it, I was calling your name... "BuuuuuuUUUGGGHHH" {eyes watering from memory of sumo-size African-American woman inserting catheter..."Hold still, baby."} nope not funny a'tall.
Posted by: SANCHIN31

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/09/05 05:13 AM

Sanchin,
Is this what you are going to name your art?

Karate Budo. The empty hand way to stop conflict.
Posted by: Sanchin

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/09/05 09:24 AM

Quote:

Sanchin,
Is this what you are going to name your art?

Karate Budo. The empty hand way to stop conflict.




Pretty much, the term describes what I train/teach/study better than anything else.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/09/05 05:15 PM

Sanchin...

It's good that you're interested in the meaning from a Kanji perspective. Before I answer your "Bu" question, I'd like to refer 2 books that do a good job of explaining the meanings behind Kanji:

1) The Empty Hand by Rui Umezawa, Pub.: Weatherhill
2) Sword & Brush by Dave Lowery, Pub.: Shambhala

Now then...

Both general interpretations are correct but here is what Lowery has to say:

"...in making up the Kanji for "bu", the brush strokes for spear are accompanied by additional strokes mean "supressing a revolt". The whole character for military, then, actually refers to "quelling an uprising by use of the polearm."

The purpose for the military was to subvert rebellion & maintain peace. Hence, Funakoshi's interpertation.

So, Yes, it means military or martial & Yes, it means stopping violence. But "Karate Budo" sounds "funny" to Japanese ears (kinda like Japlish to us). Best bet, ask a native Japanese-speaker for advice & you won't have traditional Japanese sensei laugh @ you behind your back.
Posted by: Sanchin

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/09/05 09:22 PM

Shotokai school of karate uses the term Karate Budo, http://www.shotokai.com/ingles/shotokai/karate-budo-shotokai-insignia.html

This is a japanese style of karate.

Honeslty id like to use english words, but in doing such a thing people look at it as arrogance, and ego. Or creating my own martial art, when in reality it wouldnt be, it would still be karate.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/09/05 10:26 PM

Is this a school or branch of Shoto-kai (based in Japan)?

"Karate-Budo" just sounds strange to me. One reason is that Katate was an Okinawan import while Budo existed in the Japanese lexicon long before Karate was introduced to Japan.

Maybe some non-Japanese stuck the 2 words together because it sounded good to him.

Another thing, is this the name of a style or a description of the style? I'm aware that the Shoto-kai is an established sub-group of Shotokan but Karate-Budo still sounds wierd.

I'm open to correction.
Posted by: Kintama

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/09/05 10:29 PM

sorry for asking the obvious sanchin, but why are you hungup on a name anyway? If someone asks what you do, you just say 'kara-te'. You are nowhere near opening your own school and even further away from creating a style right? I bet in 20 years, you'll still just prefer to call it 'kara-te'. Just an educated guess here, but the LAST thing that is selected when a truely unique style is formed is the name.
hedkikr: Since 'Budo' is implied as a part of 'kara-te'...maybe thats why it may sound strange ? kinda like 'karate-do budo' redundant.
Posted by: SANCHIN31

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/09/05 11:05 PM

Sanchin,
Is it your intention to create and teach your own style?If so what difference does the name make? OMHO you are far from qualified to do this anyway.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/09/05 11:53 PM

I just took the time to look @ Sanchin's website dedicated to Sanchin kata. I believe that he has a misdirected idea of Sanchin kata.

He seems to have dedicated his life to Sanchin kata (not a bad thing @ all) but I doubt that he knows why. Maybe he heard somewhere that Sanchin kata was the "alpha & omega" of kata...I don't know.

In his text he refers to the "3 Battles" & has come up w/ "3 Defences" & then built his system around this. What's strange is that he's borrowed from other websites' articles on Sanchin kata that clearly note that the "3 Battles" are more appropriately interpreted as "3 Conflicts".

Anyone studying Sanchin kata knows that the "3 Conflicts" are between Mind, Body & Spirit (Ki) & that repetitive practice enables one to bring these 3 Conflicts into harmony.

These are not 3 real battles in need of 3 defences.

Am I wrong?



owari
Posted by: SANCHIN31

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/09/05 11:59 PM

hedkikr, I think you're right on.Look at the sanchin website thread.
Posted by: Kintama

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/10/05 12:20 AM

you are dead-on 100% hedkikr.

If you read the Sanchin thread
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...page=1#15745293

I resorted to just letting it be. I'm pretty sure he is learning everything on his own with videos and books. I can see it in his demo clips. He sounds like a good person, so I feel like the bad guy to be so harsh with him....but that hasn't stopped me before. lol Hey, I expect the same harshness back when I misunderstand yet stubbornly stick to my guns.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/10/05 12:50 AM

S-31 & Kin...

I just read the thread. I posted a response. (good post if I do say so myself)

I rarely get this confrontational but I was inspired by the "What are you doing about MacDojo" thread.

Everybody wants to be a "soke" (did you see that link to that Dr. Somebody w/ 101 awards & titles??? re-fookin-diculous)

* too bad they don't have an "eye-roll" or "shaking-head" icon

owari
Posted by: SANCHIN31

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/10/05 12:56 AM

I think Sanchin is a really nice guy and smart.I don't think he'll come through with the challenge and I don't think he'll change. A kata can be a complete fighting system that covers all ranges,just not all kata.
Take the Pinan/Heihan series is Pinan Shodan a complete system? No,the whole series can be though.Is Tensho groundfighting too? No. Can you take the techniques and use them on the ground? Some of them you can. OH boy.
*shakes head* *rollseyes*
Posted by: nenipp

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/10/05 06:12 AM

"Everybody wants to be a "soke""

Well, I sure don't, how about you?
Posted by: Sanchin

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/10/05 08:07 AM

You people are so insistent that I learn from videos, and books, obviously have nothing of worth. blah. blah. All without ever meeting me, trust me, none of you have any idea who I am.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. Come train with me, just once. (Maybe I could come train with some of you )

Never said I was creating my own style, I said thats what other people will think. (oh, and look what happened, THEY DID ) I got hung up on the name , after that what styles you do thread, the less people get confused about it, the better.

Havent dedicated my life to sanchin, but a major portion of my martial trainings currently are, and have been for a few years.
Posted by: Kintama

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/10/05 09:51 AM

Quote:

You people are so insistent that I learn from videos, and books, obviously have nothing of worth. blah. blah. All without ever meeting me, trust me, none of you have any idea who I am.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. Come train with me, just once. (Maybe I could come train with some of you )





[edit] I use the term 'we' but I obviously don't think I speak for the forum...'we' means my dual personna of Mr. Hard and Mr. Soft. lol [/edit]

You avoid defending any of the accusations, how convienient.
Do you, or do you not learn from books and video? It's nothing to feel bad about, we are just trying to get to know you.

We are giving you a chance to prove us wrong, and the best argument I've heard from you is based on opinion, imagination, and subjective interpretation. which is fine when you are forming a theory, but in order to be qualified to make such connections with any credability you need a solid base to stand upon. You have not show ANY evidence of that base, and in fact, you being only 22 years old with fragmented childhood training, makes your case pretty thin of having a solid of enough background.
As far as 'knowing' you...
My guess based on your past posts is that you indeed had a eclectic smattering of MA training growing up in the 90's, maybe you moved around alot getting a little Okinawan of this in this town, a little McDojo of that in another town. You never really built a strong relationship with any one dojo or sensei so the shift to books and video was easy and made sense for you. One day, thumbing thru a wrestling mag printed in the 50's that you scored on ebay, you come across a position that resembles something familiar...where have I seen that before...hmmm...sanchin! after a "eurika!" moment, you begin forming a theory that is self-fullfilling...you make the forms fit the function and since kata is interpretation anyway, who can argue? Now you start seeing $$ and/or prestege (or something which was lacking growing up) in your future as you plan your master-ship and indocturnate yourself into the hall of "legends in their own mind". You begin forming a 'style' based on a subjective theory and will be willing to decorate it with 'mystique' to attract interest. now...if I could just come up with a name that would sell well but has a 'traditional' feel...hmmm 'karate budo' I like it.

stupid. If you were less bored with your life at 22, you'd just be training hard and learning an already established system. Spending hours/days/weeks/years on the 'true' 3 conflicts of Sanchin would do you alot more good and increasingly less delusional. Sanchin's 3 battles is not only for MA but can help you in life, become a stronger person, and make you more confident at interviews or concentration for an exam, etc. All of these seemingly disconnected things contribute to you becomming a better fighter and a better non-fighter believe it or not.

...but I could be wrong... correct me, be ignored, or smarten up and post honest questions not castle-in-the-sky theories. Your choice of course.

I agonized a bit over whether or not to post this, because you do seem like a decent and bright guy...then I remembered when I was 22 and learning the most from people who spoke straight, despite the short term hurt, it served the greater good. Thats why I still remember the things from my 20's that changed my thinking, and have all but forgotten the compliments. Hard and Soft breathing.
Posted by: butterfly

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/10/05 10:06 AM

Kintama,

After reading your post...well, I had a tear in my eye...Didn't buy the smiley faces until I read your last paragraph.

That last bit rings true. I hope Sanchin learns something and also doesn't lose his imagination to see things in karata and elsewhere in the world. However, structured imagination should be considered.

I wish I was 22 again. That was 18 years ago...and I am still a putz.

-b
Posted by: BuDoc

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/10/05 01:41 PM

I don't want to turn this into a bash Sanchin thread.

I will reiterate a few things. It is obvious that you are a bright and motivated guy. It is equally obvious that you have talent and ambition. That website was no small undertaking and looks very nice.

The downside is this. You are 22 years old(I didn't realize that because of your maturity). At 22 years old, you have not had enough experience doing anything, let alone a martial art, to base a system upon it.

I know others have said this. Get more foundation in an art, any art. In 20 years you are going to realize that what you beleive today was incorrect, or only partially correct. You will be saddened that you taught this potentially flawed method when you were young.

You have an incredible amount of potential. It is exactly correct for you to look at your art the way that you do,and to keep analyzing it as you grow. But you do need to grow.

Page
Posted by: Sanchin

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/10/05 02:45 PM

1. I do not learn from books or videos, I have many books which I do read and study, but what I have learned was always from an instructor.

2. Sanchin is not my whole life, I will grow and change. But for some time now, it has been the emphasis of my training, along with Naihanchi.

3.I try to learn something from everyone, I have an open mind, and have trained with various people over the years, some relationships developed, some didnt. As would be the same with most everyone, should this be held against me the way it is ? No.

4. Everyone keeps on insisting that I am wrong, making fun at the information I have put forth. Why can none of you take it as it really is, someone ELSES theories and opinions that arose out of the experiences that THEY have had, not of which YOU have had. And if you would of had those same experiences, you most likely would of ended up with a different conclusion anyhow. Why ? Because you are a different person. Why is it such a bad thing that im trying to share my thoughts with you people ?
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/10/05 05:05 PM

One word (& you can use this for the "One Word for MA" thread):

"Humility"

nuff said...

owari
Posted by: Sanchin

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/10/05 05:53 PM

You say that as if im not humble.
Posted by: SANCHIN31

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/10/05 06:42 PM

Quote:

You say that as if im not humble.




A humble 22yr old with various sporatic training wanting to be 'soke'. Yes,much humility.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Bu (as in Budo ) - 06/11/05 12:39 PM

Sanchin...

I have no hostility toward you in fact you inspited an idea for a thread. Please read: When do I start to "get it"? in the Martial Arts Talk forum.