kata training

Nep

You have failed to convienceing as well.

Your also miscasting my point--a golfers swing IS THE ENITRE ACTION---as is a kata when you do it all.
Its not my fault that the golf swing is shorter than the kata--they BOTH are being done to the extent of there duration.

So it does not really matter if you buy it or not, the comparsion is still valid--as it is for the batter and the boxer as well.

(plus that was one ONE of my points)

Like I have said before, a kata, at base, is just a series of individual techniques strung or "chained" togather for the purpose of practice--your SUPPOSED to pull indivudal techs and combos out.

The kata is just kinda a database of techniques, and practicing it as a "whole" is just a very effecient manner of remembering and working/practiceing them.
Not the ONLY method of doing so of course--your SUPPOSED to pull indiviual techniques out.

Kinda of an interesting question--which came first?

Did some guy back in the mists of time take a series of discrete techniques and mold them into a kata?

Or did the kata come first and folks adapt the techniques as needed?

I know your chicken vs egg question was rhetorical, cxt ...but I like answering to rhetoric.

I think it is reasonable to assume that kata followed a similar evolution as language. how babies learn language gives a glimpse into how the brain has been gradually wired over eons. kata is a kind of sign language that speaks of how to protect and defeat against being attacked. Words form before sentences. that is fact.
The connection between kata and language however is pulled from my butt with no emperical evidence to back this opinion up. I studied a bit about linguistics. My kata-language link is a strong hunch, but I haven't heard any study or article on this.

personally I think that training the whole kata in karate should be done.

it gives physical and mental benefits, delivers the 'whole' message to the practioner and ensures that the student is training correctly, ie not changing things. it gives the correct form to people, it moulds them into the style they study and ensures that the traditions live on!

that all is good but to me the real interesting bit is what is contained 'within' the kata, and from my expierience that is usually a few short effective principles that work together and different kata have different principles/emphasis, of course there is cross over.

Obviously alot of kata is repeat work, for balance (train both sides) and im sure some is to make the form work logically, ie set up the next 'real' interesting bit.

I trained for years without realising this and became disallousioned with kata practise, now im keen as mustard as I have expierienced a little of the 'real' stuff kata teaches us, and for that I am very greatfull.

Of course taking 'the interesting bits' and training them as pair work, kihon - however you want is very usefull and sits alongside kata practise as essential.


kata practise is obligitory to classical karate, end of story.

cxt, I think your point is valid if we're talking of prcticing a technique from the kata repetedly (i.e the golf analogy), but not if we're discussing the whole kata (which we are), but as you said, that's only what I think and I don't mind disagreeing on that point.

The latter part of your post, that the techniques are supposed to be pulled out, imho is exactly what I was saying.

But based on the other gentlemen's points, I see value in training the whole kata too, but that value is somewhat more on the "art" than on the "martial" side of things, way I see it..

As to shoshinkan's statement about kata being obligatory to classical okinawan karate (sorry if I don't remember the exact phrase you used), I agree!

I think kata, in its most primitive form is mimicing an event (a violant encounter / fight / hunting experience / ... ) that can retell the story, memorise the actions involved and gives the opportunity to analyse the action. In this form it is found in many cultures.
Over the thousands of years of reliving/analysing/stylisting/adding and subtracting, dance was created as well as karate kata. It seems that many of the RyuKyu court dance acts were in fact disguised moves of sword fighting (as stated by e.g. Uehara of Motobu Udon ti). The purpose of the entire kata is first of all to memorise it's movements in order not to forget it's application and to further analyse it eventually even upgrade it with new idea's. It should however not be taken lightly and change should be considered carefully. Over the thousands of years, kata have become a very complex synthesis. So when studying kata we are presented the summary and we have to rebuild the entire story, it's kinda reverse engeneering. Proper guidance is needed as wel as an open and investigating attitude. Breaking up in parts can be a tool to study but do not forget that the kata itself is already the summary. Summerising the summery will eventually leed to less, not more.

Well.truth be known Kata is a way to connect with your movements, ie by using the same movements over and over you begin to unlock the hidden movements and meaning behind the form. This is the stage of evolving in your training.This usually takes a lifetime of discipline and skill. Hopefully this is what you need to hear.

When you do your kata's do you watch your self in a mirror at times. The reason I'm so pro kata is because every time I do a kata in front of the dojo mirror it always reminds me how far I need to go. After years of practice I have only scratched the surface. practice, practice, practice, practice and more practice, martial arts is all about perfection.

Good point CVV. In classical kata (or chinese hsing/quan), the funcion preceded the form. The ritualized sets of movements, kata/hsing, were designed to retain lessons already learned. The opposite of how kata is taught now; as time went on the distance between form and application increased.

From an application (oyo jutsu) perspective, practicing individual movements may be valuable, coinciding with the two man training, and to help one explore applications (bunkai). I would say that the greatest benefits of practicing the entire kata are the holistic and mental ones. There lies the benefit of kata training after one has thoroughly engaged in the training of the kata's application with a partner. The perfection of motion, the focused mental attributes developed (zanshin, mushin, etc), the breath control, the therapeutic effect on the body, and the development of energy; invaluble!

Sensei was talking about the importance of visualization last week. I was asking for clarification on the concepts of 'zanshin' and 'mushin' and he said kata practice was essential to the development of both. Both are needed for sparring. He said "mushin is not just a product of Zen meditation but also a product of repetitive kata practice. This is why Karate is referred to as "moving Zen". He referred me to a great book of that title.

I know that kata practice has helped my focus, technique, strength, and sparring. I find it easy to spar and kumite; my greater challenge is the when I grind kata on my own. (BTW, in that book "Moving Zen" the author at one point was required to practice one high level kata outside 20 times before the teacher even allowed him in the dojo. yikes) All my instructors have had extensive sparring and tournament experience and they find kata to be as challenging, just in a different way. Kata is for developing the mind as well as the body and technique.

Just wanted to reignite this thread as it is of interest to me,

to add a little to it my thoughts are that 'karate' as a whole was developed from many influences and expieriences, without getting to historical (because im not that knowledgeable!) in my mind the individual kata represent specific masters/traditions concepts and techniques.

I have researched that not so long ago a practioner would learn a few kata over a period of time rather than many kata, my belief is that this was done to allow the depth of the kata to be explored and trained/understood by many repitions of the kata and pair work.

styles in my mind are individual masters/traditions concepts, but its the components within those styles that are of most use and different kata emphasise different components.

This is why we see superb practioners of all styles, they know 'thier' arts principles form their kata training.

kata to me is a whole bunch of principles delivered in a very neat package that needs unravling, most never begin to unravel and miss a whole lot of things that is the true karate journey IMO.

Im loving training in sanchin and naihanchi shodan as my current personal kata, of course I respect my instructors teachings in the dojo and also train other kata as he decides.