Goju Ground Fighting

We have 5 sanbon-kumite (3 step sparring) with specific applications to the ground and 2 of them even on the ground
in our curriculum. I think from originally they come from Jundokan or from M. Higaonna.
They all start with sandan-gi (attack jodan tsuki - chudan tsuki - gedan tsuki).
First will put a lock on attacker elbow, in where he will be shooted forewards while defender letts himself fall on the ground, finishing with teisho to head and uraken to testikels.
Second will drop opponent on his knee due to kanzetsu geri, pushed all the way down followed by tsuki on the back of the head.
Third will first kick the groin (kin-geri), next shuto to the neck, next submission by levering ankle - knee followed by punching downward on fallen attacker.
Fourth will pick up oppenet and slam him down mdeanwhile ensuring lock on oppents elbow, dislocating it by pulling the locked arm as he falls down.
Fifth ends with a scissor-leg takedown followed by kakato-geri from the ground.

All of these techniques can be found in the goju-ryu kata curricilum although the scissor-leg needs a bit of imagination in sanseru kata.

But I agree that most karate is stand-up and that ground fighting techniques are not obvious in goju ryu. This does not mean you cannot add more nor train them.
Fighting is fighting and what goes, goes. Karate tries to anticipate.

Kin

Actaully Hedge's style is more of what I call a "drive by" posting.
You drop in, post some inflamatory stuff then run away before folks can pick your arguements apart.
The you simply ignore the counter-arguements---hey if you don't try and respond you can always pretend that your remarks are unchallanged.

I always find it funny that very folks that continually harp on the need to "compete" and train "alive."
NEVER wish to apply that outlook to THEIR OWN SKILLS AT DEBATE/DISCUSSION.
They are so much more comfortable with NO "competition" in the area of ideas and are so NOT interested in "aliveness" in debate/discussion.

You would think that would wish to apply their dearly held outlook to other areas of life.

But they seldom do.

I think that is really quite telling.

LMAO at crappling

Hedge,
You really tempt me sometimes. I did a cartoon the other day which I decided not to post. It featured a person playing a guitar with one string. In another thread you quipped "Paging John Kogas". I agree you could learn from John. I'm not reffering to technique, though I'm sure he could school you in that. What I'm reffering to is his eloquence. He is respected here not only for his technical ability but for his ability to effectively convey the truth of his expierience in a meaningful way. If I'm correct John studied for 20 years in a variety of styles before fully embracing his current methodology. So... you've found the grail in a fraction of the time he did. Good for you. The difference between you and Kogas as I see it is that his expression is that of a seasoned practitioner and yours is tinged with an intollerant, contemptuous zelotry that is as distasteful in the arts as it is in any venue. If today you met the Kogas from 20 years ago you would have nothing but contempt for what he held to be both true and important. And now you want to put him on a pedistal because he's got "Game"?. In part your tone is hard to take because you are where you are in your life. You won't understand that because of where you are in your life. Stuff is either "the Sh!t" or it's crap. You are striving, chasing after the wind. You think that because of your Resistant training, sportive methodology, aliveness and game, that you are somehow different, better or more special than the pimply faced 12 year old Mcdojoist. You are not.
The difference between many people here and yourself is that you seem to only able to admire those "with game" where as many people here can respect anyone in "the Game".

I must admit that I would have no chance if I was to wrestle against a competitive wrestler, although grounwork is a part of our curriculum.

Also against a judoka I don't have much say in the clinch (I do on the ground [where I sooner or later find myself when I train with judoka] because they are kind enough to be "addicted" to their rules )

Additionally my kick-and-punch game isn't much worth against a half decent thai boxer either, come to think of it.

But in all three distances I figure I have an above average chance against an untrained agressor, not that I plan to confront one, but that's what I believe karate to originally have been designed against (I could be wrong of course, go ahead and sue me )

Yes, I went too far.Thankyou oldman and my apologies to the forum.

Here you go. True story.

I have been getting punked,owned [censored] slapped, whatever you trendy kids like to call it these days, by all manner of BJJ players.

See I just started a few months ago. I'm getting tapped by kids,girls, men that I outweigh by 80 lbs.

Then not to long ago I start to roll with this fellow about my size. He too is a white belt, however he has about 8 months more experience than I. We start from the knees. I am determined not to lose again.

Funny enough, from the clinch, without leaving our knees, I submit him

The instructor and some seniors say it was an "Americana". I thought I just took a move I knew well from Kata Wansu.

The grappling is there in Karate (at least in mine). We can be as good at it as anyone. And Hedge, I can make that claim because I beat a BJJ white belt

Advanced Karate-ka "have them" (the techniques), and it sounds to me like we are using them "alive".

Page

Sanchin31,
Every so often we moderators need to display moderation. I encourage you to consider if you may have gone
a tad too far.

Hmm, I don't see why everyone's so hard on hedge... I don't think I've seen him do to much 'Drive by" posting. He always seems to give a solid debate and I think I have yet to see a post by him that dosn't make my chuckle somewhat... *shrug* Anyways, thanks for the heads up about the ammount of groundfighting in Okinawin styles cxt. Just always associated it with BJJ etc :P

>>PS, Hedge, you lose 10 street cred points for putting "quotations" around "words" which already "have" clear "meaning." >>

I often do that too (then again I don't collect street cred points, so it doesn't matter), to indicate that my use of the words isn't necessarily meant to fit into the clear meaning that they have.
Sorry for derailing yet another thread!

Bullfrog,
Please tell me what type of groundfighting techniques you practiced.

Hedge -

Not sure I get your point. Is it impossible to think that someone looked at their style (possibly after seeing some groundfighting from another style), and made a concious effort to apply certain techniques to grappling?

I mean, the Gracies learned the basics from someone else. The BJJ god did not just appear and then lovingly nestle Helio to his shoulder, whispering sweet BJJ nothings in his ear.

Helio figured it out from stuff that was present in the system that he learned. It is mathematically probable that someone else could do it, too.

I rememeber a thread on Bullshido where you called Clyde a nutrider, because he refused to admit any shortcomings in AK. I actually agree with you there, but now you sound like the average 13 y/o Sherdog BJJ nutrider.

"It MUST be BJJ, or it's garbage! FAKE!" Uh.....OK.

Aren't you simply glad that the MMA model is being discussed here? Did you read my "Spreading the message" thread on Bullshido? Marginalizing people will NOT help bring people to the cause. Is that what you want?

Let people get their feet wet, for God's sake.

Check Oldman's "technique of the week 2" in the Kata and Application forum. I assure you that I am not big on kata, but I found that thread to be eye opening.

I will stand by with a fire extinguisher should you burst into flames.

Matt

Helio learned classical Judo from the Japanese, most of so-called "BJJ" is a varation of plain old judo.

The biggest problem is that Hedge still is coupling the style with the person.

ie. The Gracies can get it to work--so each and every person that trains in BJJ should ALSO be just as tough and skilled.
According to Hedges outlook, all a person has to do is step into a BJJ schools and BAM--AUTOMATIC TOUGH GUY!!
You know that's crazy, I know that's crazy, someone should take the time to inform Hedge.

Always an assumption of course that Hedge wants to do anything other than flame---he won't answer direct questions, he won't examine his methodology, etc.

He is just being a pain--to no good purpose.

SANCHIN31, What Double leg takedown's do you guys do...the ones targeting the knees or the full body ones...or both?
I've seen a 5'-1" Goju student of Higaonna do the full body scissor takedown with so much power in the hip twist, the full-size American he was sparring damn near landed on his neck in an upside down position.

To all: What do you practice for defense against a leg-scissor sweep?

Just as most karateka 'hope' their fight doesn't go to the ground, you too are 'hoping' the fight will go to the ground.
Two different philosophies and weaknesses... recognize them and get training in areas you need work...isn't THAT what it's all about?

I mean, isn't it boneheadish of all of us to criticise from which angle we look at fighting? in the end, after all of us followed our path for 30+ years it all works for each of us right? This is nothing more than a 12 y/o style vs style debate...can we get back to training?

determined to ignore derailment attempts, he asks:
SANCHIN31, how 'bout them leg sweeps eh?...

Hedge

Since you enjoy the full use of your textual powers--such as they are.

Got some questions for you.

1st question--what color is the sky in your world? This is important, since judgeing by your posts I would say that your grip on a common, kinda shared reality is none to tight.
This its important to establish just how delusional you are prior to trying to "speak" with you.

2nd, and why exactly can't a karate-ka use a grappling tech?
See the MMA training I do is kinda predicated that techniques can be learned from various sources and used by pretty much anyone--now your saying thats not true???
Darn-the guys at the UFC are going to be so upset when they learn that the techniques they have been using "really" are not working.
Bummer.

Maybe they should have asked you first huh?

Hey, maybe you could help with something, I was taught a grappling technique, taken directly from the Goju kata/kiso kumite that is almost exactly like the leg trap/hyperextension I was taught at the last Gracie seminer I attended.
Weird huh?

You say that can't happen--YET IT DID, hmmmm, whom should belive?
Your faceless, unsupported, hysterical, sceeching or my OWN personal experience--oh and that of a pro-grappler.
Which do you think makes more sense?

What to do? What to do?

Darn, sorry I forgot, what you feel makes sense is EXACTLY the issue here--you don't know what makes sense or not.
Your still trying to decide if the pink dragons are going to eat your lunch again.

Sorry to have mentioned it--I know how much you hate it when they won't share with you.

In closeing, I wish you the best of luck in getting enough tinfoil crushed into the hat you wear to block out the CIA mind control waves.

Clear that you need to pack ALOT more in.

"Talk" with you later.

Kin,
The double leg takedowns we do have many variations and ranges.
Double leg from the clinch,short range,and long range.
It could be waist level,but that works best if you feel you can lift your opponent.Knee level is optimum for me because when he falls I'm in a better control position.Ankles,trapping the heels and pushing back,better look out,when he falls you might get a kick if you don't have control of the legs.
I'm not big on the scissor takedown,I think it leaves you too vulnerable.

*swats away annoying fly*

Well, We did some ground holds. One person would hold, and our sensai showed us different ways to get out of that hold. Lots to do with shifting weight and creating smaller turning circles. What positions give good leverage and such... Just an interesting taste o' ground fighting. We incorperated armbars and wristlocks(But I knew GoJu had those) so was tres' interesting. Sorry about taking so long with the details Sanchin31

No problem Bullfrog. Looks like you're starting on the right foot.

My instructor has had previous experience. And we wouldn't do anything stupid like you mentioned.Never give someone your back!

This was written by a very well respected 'practical' karate man -

re grappling in karate kata

As the majority of those reading this article will be aware, Karate was developed by the civilian population of Okinawa. Karate is a civil system of fighting and was never intended to be used on a battlefield or in a rule-bound sporting contest. Karate was formulated to enable the civilians of Okinawa to defend both themselves and their loved ones. It was in 1669 that the Japanese invaders issued an edict that forbade the Okinawans from bearing arms. This meant that only those who enforced the laws, and those who broke them, would be in possession of weapons. The remaining citizens, who obeyed this edict, would have no option but to learn effective empty handed fighting skills if they were to assure their safety.

As a civilian living in a country that also forbids the carrying of weapons, one would think that the karate system would be ideal for self -defence. After all, that is what karate was originally created for. However, phrases such as, "95% of real fights end up on the floor" are frequently recited throughout the martial arts community at present. The importance of possessing skills at all ranges is now well understood, after all, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. If karate is designed for real fighting, then why do the vast majority of karate clubs totally omit ground fighting (and for that matter grappling in its entirety)? Did the past masters get it wrong?

If you study -as opposed to just practising - your katas, you will know that karate does contain a vast amount of grappling (see my book & videos "Karate's Grappling Methods"). Techniques such as Close Range Striking, Throws & Takedowns, Chokes & Strangles, Arm Locks, Leg & Ankle locks, Neck Cranks, Wrist Locks, Finger Locks etc. are all included within the karate katas. But what about Ground fighting? If ground fighting is so important, where is it in the katas? There are a significant number of ground fighting techniques within the katas if you know where to look. One problem that the modern martial artist faces is the difficulties that arise from failing to appreciate the difference between sport ground fighting and real ground fighting. Remember that civilians designed the techniques recorded within the katas for use in the instance of violent and unprovoked attack. No sporting techniques will be found within the katas, nor will you find the sophisticated methods needed to out wrestle a trained grappler.

In a mixed martial arts tournament (such as the Ultimate Fighting Championship) it is quite common to see contestants opt for the fight to go to the ground. This is a sound strategy if the contestant knows that they possess superior ground fighting skills to their opponent. In today's society real fights are rarely one on one for any length of time and hence opting for a ground fight is a sure way to get 'a good kicking' from your assailant's colleagues (or anyone else who fancies a 'free shot'). In the UFC, techniques such as biting, crushing the testicles, gouging the eyes etc. are banned. And yet these are the norm (and a highly effective 'norm') in a self-defence situation. Possibly the most significant difference between sport ground fighting and real ground fighting is the 'intent' behind the fight. In a sporting contest your aim is to win the tournament. In a real fight your aim is to assure your safety. In my dojo, the ground fighting practice revolves around the regaining of an upright position so that student can flee. In a competition match the strategy may well be: A, Take the fight to the floor. B, Keep the fight on the floor. C, Weaken and tire the opponent. D, Get the opponent to submit using the techniques allowed in the rules. In a real fight (and hence the method used in the katas) the strategy would be: A, Avoid going to the floor at all costs. B, If the fight does go to the floor, regain your feet as quickly as possible. C, If getting up is not immediately possible, then hurt the opponent using simple (probably brutal) techniques. D, Once back to your feet, escape and seek shelter or help.

The majority of ground fighting methods taught within the martial arts at present are sporting methods derived from match fights. It is often the simplest methods that are the most effective, e.g. seizing the testicles. But if these methods are banned - as in a sporting contest - then an alternative needs to be sought. An interesting example of this is the ground fighting methods found within contest Judo. The art of Judo is effective in the extreme; they are without doubt the premier grapplers of the martial arts community. But it is a little known fact that before 1900 Judo did not possess the ground fighting methods it is so renowned for today. The Kodokan (Kano's Judo School) had gained a strong reputation for itself through its numerous victories in Randori Shiai (competition) when challenging other Jujitsu schools. In 1900, the Kodokan arranged a match against the Fusen Ryu of Jujitsu. At this time Judo did not include the same ground fighting methods that it has today. Kano had based much of his Judo on the Tenshin Shinyo Ryu & Kito Ryu systems of Jujitsu. Both of these styles were well know for their excellent striking skills and effective throws. Tenshin Shinyo Ryu & Kito Ryu were battlefield arts, designed by samurai, and as such aimed to spend as little time on the ground as possible. A samurai would, in all probability, be decapitated by the sword of a member of the opposing army if they remained on the floor for any longer than a few seconds, and hence the jujitsu of the samurai did not contain the sophisticated ground fighting associated with the art today. The representatives of the Fusen Ryu realised they stood little chance against the Kodokan and decided to adopt an unusual strategy. When the fights began, the Fusen Ryu men laid down on the floor. Confused by what would be a suicidal movement on a battlefield (or in the street), the Kodokan men joined their opponents on the floor and were promptly beaten by the locks and chokes of the Fusen Ryu practitioners. This was the first loss Kano's men had suffered in eight years. If the Kodokan were to continue to dominate other Jujitsu schools then they needed to develop a full set of ground fighting techniques for use in match fights (which, as we now know, they did to great effect). So we can see that many of Judo's ground fighting methods stemmed from competition fighting, as opposed to the methods that would be employed by a samurai on a battlefield. This does not mean they are ineffective, far from it, just that the samurai would avoid ground fighting and would use more brutal methods (such that they would be unsuitable for a sporting contest) if a ground fight could not be avoided.

Just as ground fighting holds and locks were spurned by the ancient samurai, they were also considered to be unsuitable by modern warriors such as the great W.E. Fairbairn. In case you don't know, Captain W.E. Fairbairn developed a system of unarmed combat that was so effective it became a part of the training for the Shanghai Municipal Police, The British Commandos, The American Marine corp., The British Special Operations executive and The American Office of Strategic Services during world war two. Captain Fairbairn is a practical fighting legend. In his 1942 combat manual entitled, "Get Tough!" Captain Fairbairn wrote, "You will have noted that no holds or locks on the ground are demonstrated. The reason for this is: THIS IS WAR." Captain Fairbairn goes on to explain that an individual should aim to regain their feet as fast as possible, is very vulnerable to attack whilst on the floor, there is a vast difference between fighting on mats and on rocky ground or a road, and that the most important thing is to remain on your feet in the first instance if at all possible.

Please do not misunderstand me. I am not saying that ground fighting holds, lock, submissions etc. do not have a place. It is just that the more simple, direct and practical methods must be given priority in a real fight. In my own club we regularly drill the holds and utilise ground fighting submissions (adapted from the katas) in our training. But the emphasis firmly remains upon avoiding going to the ground in the first place and regaining our feet as quickly as possible should the worst happen (as it so often does).

Karate as it was originally practised was a brutal and violent system, and it is this version of karate that is recorded within the katas. Throughout the katas the majority of close range techniques begin with an attempt to seize the throat, gouge the eyes or crush the testicles (sometimes a combination thereof). Any of these techniques will end a fight almost instantly (and that is why the katas favour them). Should these techniques be thwarted, the katas contain numerous locks, strikes, throws etc. that flow on from these initial techniques. It is important to understand that the katas record the key strategies and fighting principles of their creators. These strategies and principles are far more important that the techniques used to demonstrate them. When a fight hits the ground, the same strategy as used when vertical would be adopted by the karateka - if you can't get up instantly, then seize the throat, gouge the eyes or crush the testicles (obviously, these techniques are only justified in extreme circumstances - which is what kata is all about). If that is not possible then attack the opponent using the locks, chokes, strangles contained within the katas. The kata rarely demonstrates these techniques on the floor (although it does on occasion), as the preferred option is to remain vertical. However, the principles upon which the techniques rest are consistent whether the techniques are utilised vertically or horizontally. This is reflected in Gichin Funakoshi's eighteenth principle of karate-do, "In spite of actual fighting always being different, the principles of kata never vary." That is not to say that there are no ground techniques in the katas. Pinan / Heian Godan executes a cross-strangle to a thrown opponent who is now on the floor, Kushanku contains a takedown into a floor fighting neck crank etc., but these are exceptions rather than the rule. The kata prefers to demonstrate its grappling principles from a vertical position, as being vertical is the preferred option, and the katas always endeavour to encourage the correct strategy.

The katas tell us how the various joints, arteries etc. can be manipulated to best effect. Whether these weaknesses of the human anatomy are manipulated when in a vertical or horizontal position is not relevant. To quote Gichin Funakoshi once again, "In spite of actual fighting always being different, the principles of kata never vary." (See the KGM books & tapes for numerous examples of kata techniques being used on the floor).

I would like to make it clear that kata practice alone will not enable the karateka to develop effective fighting skills. The katas are simply the method by which the strategies and principles of the art are recorded. You must try to utilise the kata's methods (grappling and ground fighting, not just striking) in sparring. In his 1926 book, "Ryukyu Karate Kempo" Choki Motobu (who was one of Okinawa's most feared fighters) wrote, "Kumite is an actual fight using many basic styles of kata to grapple with the opponent." From Motobu's statement we can deduce that: A, the katas contain many grappling techniques. B, Kumite should be based upon the techniques recorded within the katas (as opposed to being based upon modern sporting methods.) If you wish to be able to use the kata's techniques in a live environment, you must practice using the kata's techniques in a live environment (seems obvious, so one wonders why so few do it). In my book, "Karate's Grappling Methods" I suggest a number of different ways in which you can practice kata techniques in this way and I would urge you to read it for further guidance.

Ground fighting is a part of Karate - as one would expect with the art being specifically designed for civilian self-defence. The katas contain the correct principles, techniques and strategies to enable the karateka to defend themselves during a real fight (but not a sporting contest). The reason so many karateka omit ground fighting (and grappling in general) is that the katas are often insufficiently studied and competition sparring does not allow fighting at close range or on the floor. If we wish to practice Karate as an effective and complete art then we must study the katas (not just practice them), extract the techniques and concepts the katas contain and then utilise these methods in live sparring. We should also adapt and experiment with the katas techniques such that we are able to utilise them in numerous situations. Hironori Otsuka, in his book 'Wado-Ryu Karate' wrote, "It is obvious that these kata must be trained and practised sufficiently, but one must not be 'stuck' in them. One must withdraw from the kata to produce forms with no limits or else it becomes useless. It is important to alter the form of the trained kata without hesitation to produce countless other forms of training." Similarly, the great Choki Motobu once said, "Learn to apply the principles of the katas, such that you can bend with the winds of adversity." So when discussing ground work, in addition to the brutally simple methods contained within the katas, we are also encouraged to adapt the kata's vertical grappling methods for use on the floor. As mentioned earlier, the same weaknesses exist in the human anatomy weather the opponent is vertical or horizontal. The katas record these weaknesses and give examples of how to exploit them. If we study "why" a technique works such that we understand the principles upon which it is based, we can then adapt the technique - in line with the principles upon which it rests - so that it can be used in may different circumstances. Techniques are very specific, but concepts and principles are essentially unlimited. It is the principles of the kata that are of most importance, not the techniques used to demonstrate them.

Karate (as contained within the katas) is a highly effective art that possess methods and strategies for use at every range. It is a complete system of fighting that was specifically developed for use by unarmed civilians. If you study the original karate (as contained within the katas) you will develop effective fighting methods regardless of distance, and that includes ground fighting.



Not trying to force any views but I am in agreeance with most of what is said in this piece and thought it would interest you guys and gals.

Stampede -

Great post, exactly what I was trying to get at. You can take the (rudimentary in comparison) techniques in a kata, and adapt them to resitant partner training on the ground.

Hedge's worries about people turning their backs, etc., don't really hold water because beginning groundfighters (even BJJ whitebelts) make the same mistakes.

And learn the same way. After being put in a RNC once or twice, you will know not to turn your back.

And hell, on the str33t, you really only need to have a good grasp of the basics. You don't need to be a BJJ purple belt, although that certainly won't hurt.

Hedge,
Regardless of what you think I will continue to train the way I do and so will others. This includes Goju ground fighting.

How do you know what kata acomplishes hedge?Have you done it? Have you trained it? If a karateka takes groundfighting out of a kata good,if not,good.He's still training in groundfighting.

Hedge -

I will certainly not try to argue with the concept of expert instruction. Nor do I doubt that you could probably kick my ass, as many of the terms you used were foreign to me.

However, I stand by my conviction that if kata can get people into expanding their combat repetoire, I am all for it. Perhaps they will seek better instruction because they find that they need it. Fine. However they end up there, as long as they do.

Be grateful that it's being thought of. I think any thing that helps people get closer to the MMA model is OK with me.

I think you're right about that if a karateka want's that level of ground-fighting, then he'd be well adviced to look outside his own system.
But you can't be good at all ranges, heck I aint good at any; a karateka needs to be half-decent in all distances though, imvho (i.e stand a reasonable chance against the untrained attacker)

just my .02$

Hedge, I suspect your karate training was limited and not that good.

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_1.htm

excellent reference SANCHIN.
I suspect Hedgehogey likes reading his own posts, so he will continue to spew forth reguardless of anything. He needs a "Hedgehogey" forum. To be fair, some of his post have been interesting, but I just got tired of reading his same... sameness. I haven't even kept uptodate on this thread and I assume he's still trying to convince everyone how great he is?

You're right. He ignore's posts,replies with one-liners,then repeats the same sameness. "kata is dead and BJJ is the ultimate" LOL!

He just can't fathom that I do goju and groundfighting.

Im terms of learning, I thought what we learnt was interesting, but I am almost tempted to side with hedge on the idea that goju's grabbling will be crap compared to grabbling arts bjj, if only for the readon, thats what they train in EVERY time, I have had one session in like 3 months . It is bound to be better developed in something like bjj. I keep getting confused in this thread as to exactly what everyone is arguing about .

Grabbling? grabby grab bag!!

Well it's only crap if you don't train it right.We don't do groundfighting as much as everything else either,but what we do train works.Did you read the link?
What are we arguing about? Hedge doesn't like it that a karate school does groundfighting and assumes it must be crap because we don't call it BJJ.woopee.

You judge from reading my posts that I have an inability to grapple?

You're sameness is boring me.

Thread locked due to too much sameness.