What's so good about legendary Japanese swords?

Posted by: TaekwonDoFan

What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 01/25/10 02:16 AM

TKD is the only martial arts I've ever practiced - though Hapkido self-defence techniques have been included in my training, I remain primarily a kicker.

So I've been wondering about the idea that one sword is really better than the other, because I keep seeing this in films and books. I just saw Kill Bill Vols I and II, and the heroine was asking for a hattori sword, which is supposed to be better than other swords.

I presume a hattori sword is a fictitious type of sword, but is a really good sword made by a master better than an average sword made by an average swordsmith? IOW, can a hattori sword break a normal sword in two?
Posted by: Kathryn

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 01/25/10 01:20 PM

The short answer is, yes.

If you are ever offered the opportunity to even just hold a katana made by a reputable forger, I hope that you will take advantage of it. The best way to learn how to recognize a good sword is to get near them.

Having said that, katanas are generally customized to the user, and a good swordsmith understands how to match the blade to the user's physique and style. Length and balancing points are common points of customization.

I would let go of the whole Hattori thing, because it is fictional. The ones you see being sold are replicas and for fun only.
Posted by: TaekwonDoFan

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 01/25/10 02:19 PM

I'm learning something new, thanks. smile

Can a good sword break the blade of a not-so-good sword?

I'm asking because I'm thinking of trying kendo, just for fun. And collecting good swords may not be a bad hobby either.
Posted by: Kathryn

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 01/27/10 08:29 AM

If you have an interest in Kendo, I strongly recommend checking out the website of the international kendo federation, and seek out a group that is affiliated.

But the first rule is to know your weaponry, and the art of kendo does not use live steel. You would spar with a special bamboo sword that allows for whacking without injury to others.

Some kendo groups also train in the art of iaido, and that would involve using a live steel training sword called an iaito.

As for breaking swords, any sword can be damaged or broken in ordinary training or in a battle situation. Fittings can come loose, and striking can crack the steel. Again, it is a fiction that you can purchase a sword that will be unbreakable. As a fan of Japanese cinema, I can tell you that samurai movies do not have plotlines about magical swords or unbreakable swords. The focus is usually on the skill of the warrior.

Good luck to you!
Posted by: TaekwonDoFan

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 01/27/10 11:55 AM

Good point, and thanks.

So what's the difference between a good sword and a not-so-good one?
Posted by: Kathryn

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 02/01/10 09:08 AM

I don't want you to think that I am ignoring your question, it's just that I don't know what you mean by a 'good sword'.

To a weapons user, any weapon that serves its purpose would be 'good'.

If you mean what kind of sword do collectors seek, there are many good websites on the subject, and I encourage you to learn more about them there.
Posted by: JMWcorwin

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 02/02/10 06:23 PM

cheap sword
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o-DCk2qhDM

good sword
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJZ5J7h_L1w&feature=related

But, as previously posted, if you really look online and even if you search the sword arts forums here, there's lots of knowledge to be had beyond what you see in a flea market replica sword catalog. It just requires a little bit of reading. This is something that can't be explained in a one sentence reply.
Posted by: seibukanUK

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 02/13/10 03:30 PM

Hi
It is interesting that you state that Kendoka just whack each other. So, I take it that they do not try to replicate cutting each other and therfore Kendo has no relation to the sword arts. I must add that I don't do Kendo but do Iai and Ken and was always under the impression that Kendo was a bit more than the art of whacking and had some relationship with the sword arts. If Kendo is the art of whacking, better off doing Ken or Iai they are real sword arts. You can whack any where
Posted by: TaekwonDoFan

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 02/13/10 04:35 PM

Whacks on, whacks off, whacks on, whacks off. Very good, Daniel-san. smile
Posted by: 47MartialMan

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 07/05/11 01:26 AM

Apart from what some others have posted, a good sword would not necessarily be an old-ancient--collectible.

The methods and understanding of metallurgy have far advanced in modern era and process than any old-world manufactured

Simply, a good sword is going to cost more

This is a great site and place to start;

http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/buy-swords-online.html#battle-ready
Posted by: duanew

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 07/05/11 07:46 AM

Yeah, but a new sword has never been checked to see how many dead convicts it can slash thru-now that's mystique!

Duane
Posted by: iaibear

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 07/06/11 02:00 PM


The "best" Japanese blade I was ever honored to handle was a six hundred year old forgery. Very light and short. Very well balanced. Very "tired". That means one more polishing (the only way to sharpen a quality blade) and the remains of the hamon would be gone. It was worth at least a thousand dollars.
Posted by: 47MartialMan

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 07/06/11 11:16 PM

Originally Posted By: iaibear

The "best" Japanese blade I was ever honored to handle was a six hundred year old forgery. Very light and short. Very well balanced. Very "tired". That means one more polishing (the only way to sharpen a quality blade) and the remains of the hamon would be gone. It was worth at least a thousand dollars.


Yeah, there are some that fetch more than that.

Careful though, even if it is "old" it can be almost worthless, as there were "cheap" made ones back in those eras as well.
Posted by: 47MartialMan

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 07/06/11 11:17 PM

Originally Posted By: duanew
Yeah, but a new sword has never been checked to see how many dead convicts it can slash thru-now that's mystique!

Duane


Actually, they weren't dead until they were sliced-slashed. smile
Posted by: iaibear

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 07/07/11 10:17 AM

"How good is it?"

A practitioner (not me) was doing the kata called "batto", slipped and ran the tip through his upper arm (not just into but through).

His doctor examined the wound and any damage the vintage sword might have done to the surrounding tissue. The cut was so scalpel neat, he just pressed the edges together and wrapped on a bandage to hold them steady. It healed smooth.
Posted by: 47MartialMan

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 07/08/11 07:46 PM

Originally Posted By: iaibear
"How good is it?"

A practitioner (not me) was doing the kata called "batto", slipped and ran the tip through his upper arm (not just into but through).

His doctor examined the wound and any damage the vintage sword might have done to the surrounding tissue. The cut was so scalpel neat, he just pressed the edges together and wrapped on a bandage to hold them steady. It healed smooth.


What comes to mind;

"Why do a kata with a razor-sharp sword?"
Posted by: iaibear

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 07/08/11 10:55 PM

<< "Why do a kata with a razor-sharp sword?" >>

Because it is yours.
Kata can be done with a shinken. Higher belts who own one or more practice with them regularly.
Posted by: iaibear

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 07/09/11 03:13 PM

Another notion just occurred to me.

What is the point of owning a Porsche if you don't drive it?
Posted by: 47MartialMan

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 07/09/11 08:15 PM

A Porsche is designed to go fast.

In many places there are speed limits.

Therefore, owning a Porsche is a issue of prestige because one can never supercede the speed limit.

Like a sharp sword, do something wrong and there WILL be consequences
Posted by: davidb

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 07/12/11 08:03 PM

A good sword to a not so good sword has a lot to do with metallurgy and the skill of the smith NOT to screw it up.A good sword holds an edge and is tough enough to handle impacts and cutting. If a sword wards, twists or bends in the hand of a novice then it 's likely not a good sword. An skilled swordman can "use " a good sword to cut because his technique is trained to cut properly. even a bad sword CAN cut.

A reputable smith can forge a strond blade with no micro cracks in the steel. these micro crack and stress fractors can eventually lead to the demish of the blade during use.

Metallurgy -wise the steel has to be harden enough to hold a good edge but tough enough to withstand impact.
Posted by: davidb

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 07/12/11 08:16 PM

opps ... i ignored the original question...what is so special about the legendary japanese sword..... I held a 17th century katana last week valued at $10k....oh my. It's like holding something sacred.... you become very aware of the history and can see the skill that was required to make it. I make swords myself and I am aware of what makes a good sword [there is so much more to it than my quick short reply above]

If you mean are Japanese katana the ulimate sword... no not really but the techinque and skill involved is awe inspiring. The differental temper was a monumental technical feat of engineering for that time period. In the hands of a trained a Samuraiit is a weapon of massive ability.... there are viking blades that are stronger and tougher but a japanese blade it a pure cutter... the physics are incredible

Metallurgy wise modern swords today are better. I am not refering to the mass produced crap you can by. BUT the skill of a Japanese swordsmith if that of a craftsman and an artist. The skill [ to me ] makes the difference

A good high end modern custom made sword can run $3000 to $15000 depending on the smith
Posted by: 47MartialMan

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 07/12/11 08:35 PM

Originally Posted By: davidb
A good sword to a not so good sword has a lot to do with metallurgy and the skill of the smith NOT to screw it up.A good sword holds an edge and is tough enough to handle impacts and cutting. If a sword wards, twists or bends in the hand of a novice then it 's likely not a good sword. An skilled swordman can "use " a good sword to cut because his technique is trained to cut properly. even a bad sword CAN cut.

A reputable smith can forge a strond blade with no micro cracks in the steel. these micro crack and stress fractors can eventually lead to the demish of the blade during use.

Metallurgy -wise the steel has to be harden enough to hold a good edge but tough enough to withstand impact.


Good swords flex
Posted by: davidb

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 07/12/11 09:15 PM

yup... and stay straight after they flex. Flexibility is a part of the toughness factor and at the same time are hard enough to hold a sharp edge.
Posted by: iaibear

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 07/12/11 11:22 PM

But even a quality blade deserves to sing and be listened to.
Posted by: 47MartialMan

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 07/13/11 11:34 PM

Originally Posted By: iaibear
But even a quality blade deserves to sing and be listened to.


Depends.
Posted by: 47MartialMan

Re: What's so good about legendary Japanese swords? - 07/13/11 11:35 PM

Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan
Originally Posted By: iaibear
But even a quality blade deserves to sing and be listened to.


Depends.



On another note, I think the Japanese blade is made of two parts