Staffs -n- Stuff
A few months ago, I bought the following staff from Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/72-Hardwood-Staff-...7091&sr=1-1While it was indeed a nice staff, it's too heavy to wield swiftly and smoothly. So, I was wondering if anyone can recommend me any good staff sellers or possibly, better staffs on Amazon.
What I'm looking for:
Length - 5 to 6 feet.
Diameter - Nothing too thin.
Material - Anything but wax wood and metal.
Taper - No tapered ends if possible.
Posted by: puffadder
Re: Staffs -n- Stuff - 07/26/08 11:55 AM
That looks like the kind of staff we use in our classes which we get from our local stockist
http://www.kiksports.co.uk/kik_5/kik_files/big_weapons_page/weap_1/bo_multcart.htm.It's a good weapon, heavy enough and thick enough to develop upper body and particularly grip strength. I know many classes favour lighter staffs but we prefer the weight as it helps in mimicking the movements of an arm or leg. So controlling the staff helps develop the strength and skill needed to control a moving limb in empty hand combat. That is the main reason for using a long range weapon like a staff (you're hardly likely to need to use one as a proper weapon).
Having said all that of course it depends on what style you are being taught. Ask your instructor for the kind of staff he recommends you purchase.
Unfortunately, I have no instructor nor have I received extensive training in the staff. But I have received some training in the staff when I took Taekwondo many years ago.
Posted by: puffadder
Re: Staffs -n- Stuff - 07/27/08 09:25 AM
What are you hoping to gain from your staff training and do you study any particular martial arts?
Quote:
What are you hoping to gain from your staff training and do you study any particular martial arts?
I'm not studying anything at the moment. The only training I have is in Taekwondo, but I have long since stopped taking classes.
Posted by: puffadder
Re: Staffs -n- Stuff - 07/27/08 10:20 AM
The kind of weapon you use depends on what you want to achieve. I have no experience of TKD but a lot in staff (bo) work.
Training in staff gives the following benefits:
The main thing is coordination of arms legs and torso - learning to generate power correctly and effortlessly.
It also gives increased grip strength and is excellent for the shoulders (which I'm sure you've already discovered).
When done properly it teaches you to move with your attacker and redirect their incoming force back into them. It is said that the sword is an extension of your arm but the staff is an extension of your centre.
As a weapon itself it is long distance (obviously) and because it has two attacking ends it makes the movements difficult to predict. I have seen many examples of people using the staff who only attack with one end of it. They are only using half or less of it's potential. If you want to learn properly seek a teacher who will teach the spins, turns and so on that will give you the full potential of this excellent weapon.
Posted by: westway50
Re: Staffs -n- Stuff - 07/27/08 09:39 PM
i find it very important to go out to a weapon store and feel the weapon you are going to get. i know that this mainly applies to like swords and stuff, but this guideline isnt too bad when it comes to staff. like i personally like my staff that i got. its a bow staff and the weight distribution along it is good for my preference.
Posted by: Chatan1979
Re: Staffs -n- Stuff - 07/28/08 08:29 AM
Quote:
i find it very important to go out to a weapon store and feel the weapon you are going to get. i know that this mainly applies to like swords and stuff, but this guideline isnt too bad when it comes to staff. like i personally like my staff that i got. its a bow staff and the weight distribution along it is good for my preference.
Not to be a prude, but...
You do know that saying "bow staff" or more precisely bo staff, is like saying bat bat, or my golf club club. Its redundant. to some people something like this is trivial and to others it is important because it shows your lack of knowledge about weapons. These are the same people that call nunchaku "numchuks", and swing them around like fools in their backyards as substitution for real weapon training.
Quote:
The kind of weapon you use depends on what you want to achieve. I have no experience of TKD but a lot in staff (bo) work.
Training in staff gives the following benefits:
The main thing is coordination of arms legs and torso - learning to generate power correctly and effortlessly.
It also gives increased grip strength and is excellent for the shoulders (which I'm sure you've already discovered).
When done properly it teaches you to move with your attacker and redirect their incoming force back into them. It is said that the sword is an extension of your arm but the staff is an extension of your centre.
As a weapon itself it is long distance (obviously) and because it has two attacking ends it makes the movements difficult to predict. I have seen many examples of people using the staff who only attack with one end of it. They are only using half or less of it's potential. If you want to learn properly seek a teacher who will teach the spins, turns and so on that will give you the full potential of this excellent weapon.
I have done extensive searching for a school that teaches the use of the staff. I only found one school within walking distance of where I live and that was Wah Lum Kung Fu that teaches it. Along with the staff, they teach the use of many other weapons and also teach Praying Mantis. Unfortunately, I was told that training there isn't cheap and that it's mostly form work.
Posted by: puffadder
Re: Staffs -n- Stuff - 07/28/08 05:58 PM
Quote:
I have done extensive searching for a school that teaches the use of the staff. I only found one school within walking distance of where I live and that was Wah Lum Kung Fu that teaches it. Along with the staff, they teach the use of many other weapons and also teach Praying Mantis. Unfortunately, I was told that training there isn't cheap and that it's mostly form work.
What's wrong with form work? How else did you expect to learn how to use the staff?
I never said there was anything wrong with form work. I was just recalling what I was told.
Posted by: puffadder
Re: Staffs -n- Stuff - 07/29/08 03:32 AM
ok I just insunuated that from the sentence "Unfortunately, I was told that training there isn't cheap and that it's mostly form work."
Form work is the only real way to learn to use a staff or any other weapon. I think it's particularly important with the staff which is being trained not as a weapon in itself but to instill in you the strength and coordination to apply empty hand techniques more effectively.
Posted by: westway50
Re: Staffs -n- Stuff - 07/30/08 01:54 AM
Quote:
Not to be a prude, but...
You do know that saying "bow staff" or more precisely bo staff, is like saying bat bat, or my golf club club. Its redundant. to some people something like this is trivial and to others it is important because it shows your lack of knowledge about weapons. These are the same people that call nunchaku "numchuks", and swing them around like fools in their backyards as substitution for real weapon training.
i actually didnt know that bo ment staff. never really looked into it. i say bo staff because people around me say it. also the lack of knowledge behind the meaning of a word does not have any relationship to the type of training a person has gone through.
Posted by: mambawaba
Re: Staffs -n- Stuff - 08/04/08 08:26 PM
Quote:
I have seen many examples of people using the staff who only attack with one end of it. They are only using half or less of it's potential. If you want to learn properly seek a teacher who will teach the spins, turns and so on that will give you the full potential of this excellent weapon.
Please allow me to disagree with this.
using both sides of the stick in a real, full range fight(in a open field with 2 opponents facing each other), is a too slow of a technique to work and would actually damage the surprise effect since you would have to do allot of hand movement that is too slow for a full speed fight.
I don't say there isn't any use to it, but more when you are actually able to enter in a closer range and can use it faster (that is only doable when you are quite superior to your opponent anyway, so it doesn't add much.), but at full range, using both sides of the staff isn't very useful.
of course every technique has it's applications and different people are looking for different stuff.
Cheers!
Posted by: puffadder
Re: Staffs -n- Stuff - 08/05/08 06:56 AM
Generally we use the staff not as a weapon in its own right but as a training implement to increase strength, speed, coordination etc for empty hand combat. When used as such its an incredibly versatile weapon and can be used to train many kinds of strikes, throws and so on while aiding grip strength, speed, flexibliity and many other factors.
As far as staff on staff training goes and at full long range then you are right and one end alone would be used. If your opponent can break through to medium range then both ends would be more appropriate so it's useful to be able to use either one or both ends depending on circumstances. you could even counter 2 opponents using different ends, as a simple example striking forward with one end and back with the other to counter an attack from behind. Obviously that is over simplistic but a skilled man with a staff can use it with great skill to counter attacks from any direction with spinning defences and lunging attacks from many different angles.
As you can guess its my favourite weapon.
Posted by: mambawaba
Re: Staffs -n- Stuff - 08/05/08 07:20 PM
Hi, nice to know that, my favorite weapon too!
As i don't practice close combat fighting arts and rely only on the staff and baton, i tend to favor techniques that keep my opponents far away from me, and against multiple opponents when they get too close its very hard to get out of that situation safely(specially if they are of the same skill and have the same weapon as you).
Thats why i wanted to focus on the importance of using the staffs full length and speed(that means that there cant me much hand changes and you have to grip on one extremity and hit with the other) in my opinion that is the most important skill to be proficient with the staff, because it's the safest and more lethal(using the full length and rotational moves generates more power), and should be preferably used unless it's impossible to(no space, or opponents to close), but any other closer range and versatile set of skills is something i definitely wanna look in the future as a resource.
Cheers!
Posted by: puffadder
Re: Staffs -n- Stuff - 08/06/08 08:25 AM
The changing hand positions thing is another good reason for staff training. It teaches students to grab and release which many seem to have a problem with. When they grab an arm they hang on to it and find it hard to let go. I think staff training helps a lot in learning to grab then release and strike very quickly. The ability to open hand block, close hand grab, open hand release and close fist strike seems to take most people ages to get without staff training.
Posted by: brocksampson
Re: Staffs -n- Stuff - 08/09/08 12:32 PM
I agree that you need to be able to use a weapon in it's most advantageous range. However, the way you described leaves you with a one-shot, one range weapon. I guess that's OK for banging sticks with an opponent but it makes for a long fight when you never get to actually hit them!
Yeah, about those staff sellers...
Posted by: mambawaba
Re: Staffs -n- Stuff - 08/11/08 08:22 PM
puffadder - its great to see how you use the staff as a learning/teaching tool and can teach principles that can be adapted for other kinds of fighting.
Brocksampson, im sorry if i have some difficulties with my English, i will try to give my view about the situation you described applied to what i said.
About the one-range one-shot, yes, i agree that you should train different range techniques, but it's more important to better control the one that gives you more advantage, and you should also train to keep that advantage/distance so you can beat them without getting in danger in the first place.
About the long fight without anyone getting hit, and banging sticks, i don't see that happen in a real fight or competition.
let me elaborate:
when i see banging staffs with no hits for a long time:
1- practitioners don't have basic notions of distance and are striking to the opponent's staff instead of the body, you can go crazy fast here but doesn't do much in a real situation.
2- both very experienced fighters attack to the opponents body and can block high speed, random attacks and counter attack several times. and this can last for long.
in the first situation, i agree that is not staff fighting, it's just people having fun.
in the second situation, it's not actually staff fighting too, because even if the attacks are fast and powerfull, this kind of fight its never at full speed and is always somewhat controlled, even if it is a great exercice.
in conclusion, even in a fight at full distance(attacks with the arms fully extended in the end and gripping the staff on the very extremity, hitting with the other extremity), a real one when you are really trying to hit your opponent, or in a competition with non hurting equipment(even if you know you will not hurt your opponent, you really want to win and deliver a powerfull strike), no matter what, people with no MA training or very experienced fighters, on the same level, this kind of fight will never last more than a few seconds until someone gets hit(probably most would not last more than 2 seconds) the more newbies would get some bruises but the experienced fighters would inflict more tremendous damage.
with this, don't you agree that a staff fighter that practices more short range techniques is in disadvantage with fighting other that uses the full range of the staff? He would have to break the distance, and avoid a trust(tsuki? in japanese martial arts? i only know kendo) attack, and then, at closer distances its so much easier to grab the opponent's staff and punch him(that would be a problem for the one that is smaller/weaker body and would take advantage of the range of the weapon).
sorry for the long post, but i really like to know what other people think and would like to know you opinion about it too.
Cheers!
Posted by: brocksampson
Re: Staffs -n- Stuff - 08/12/08 12:47 AM
Quote:
in conclusion, even in a fight at full distance(attacks with the arms fully extended in the end and gripping the staff on the very extremity, hitting with the other extremity), a real one when you are really trying to hit your opponent, or in a competition with non hurting equipment(even if you know you will not hurt your opponent, you really want to win and deliver a powerfull strike), no matter what, people with no MA training or very experienced fighters, on the same level, this kind of fight will never last more than a few seconds until someone gets hit(probably most would not last more than 2 seconds) the more newbies would get some bruises but the experienced fighters would inflict more tremendous damage.
with this, don't you agree that a staff fighter that practices more short range techniques is in disadvantage with fighting other that uses the full range of the staff? He would have to break the distance, and avoid a trust(tsuki? in japanese martial arts? i only know kendo) attack, and then, at closer distances its so much easier to grab the opponent's staff and punch him(that would be a problem for the one that is smaller/weaker body and would take advantage of the range of the weapon).
Cheers!
I agree that most serious FIGHTS are over in a matter of seconds once they actually begin. Probing for openings from sparring range is not the same thing at all.
I believe that the opponent who is comfortable with a variety of ranges will be much stronger in this situation. The long range guy is counting on defending at the length of the staff. His only real shot is the quick thrust. Then he has to "re-load" for the next shot. I would say that more than 60% of the time this range is easily passable with an equal length weapon. We have tried this with bo vs. sai, escrima, knife, and club and it's VERY enlightening once the shorter weapons get inside that thrust. And other strikes such as overhead and side strikes are also just invitations to close in from that range. This is why combinations are important and they are much faster when using more than one part of the staff.
In the scenario where two opponents face off with equal weapons(full staff in this case) the one with the most training SHOULD have the advantage if all else is equal. One strategy is to remain at a specific length and control the fight from there. To negate that, the other guy may close distance. Once inside, the skill level is even again. It's simply a matter of creating and maintaining pressure.
We have found that from a long range (against a bo), as soon as your opponent begins to strike, you are usually better off closing this distance and crowding him into an awkward situation. This means that you will need to be competent in a variety of ranges for your weapon. The longer the weapon, the more ranges it can be used in. We train a number of throwing techniques with a 6 foot bo as well as the long thrust, shorter "punches" and constantly using the entire weapon. There are several ranges with this weapon. the ability to attack and defend effectively while moving through them is critical.
Remember if you are close enough to hit someone, they are in range to trap your weapon. If someone releases their weapon to grab their opponents' it is basically a disarm as long as the opponent can control the distance. If not, you are fighting over a single weapon and you BETTER have some training at close range or you will give up the weapon completely. This often happens when we train and it quickly becomes a fist fight. At that range, a bo is very difficult to use if you don't control the distance quickly.
This is a very difficult way to discuss these points.
Yeah, so how about throwing some websites that sell good quality staves my way?
Posted by: mambawaba
Re: Staffs -n- Stuff - 08/12/08 06:18 AM
"This is a very difficult way to discuss these points."
I agree, and this kind of situations also do have so many variables, also from our different experiences. And even if i like to discuss theoretically, most of this talk can only be proved/tested practically to be worth anything, so it is normal and probably expected that we don't get to a consensus here.
but i don't see anything wrong in keep talking in a healthy manner, so,
We probably use different kind of staffs too.
i never used a "bo", but from what i have seen it is longer than the human height, in that situation i agree it is difficult to use in longer distances(we use a staff a bit smaller than a person). It also uses to have its weight on the center and the extremities are lighter right? Im used to staff with one extremity thicker than the other to favor those long range and powerfull attacks.
yes, i said that few seconds are when someone actually makes a move, the probing can be very important, mostly in competition, but that is so variable from people to people that it's hard to time.
yes, i believe that is better to be comfortable in different ranges. But on the other hand, against shorter weapons, lets say a sword, when the staff fighter is at one move/step hit distance, the sword fighter need to give 2 or 3 more steps yet, so even if the staff attack is slower(a full rotational one and not just a tap) he would still get him most of the time, and also, a sword cant easily block a powerfull staff attack, that is already hard to block even with other staff with the hands at shoulder distance for stability, most strong attacks would break or at least really disorientate a sword block(unless the staff is really light). and against sword weapons, when they break that distance they have the advantage of the blade, that means that just a lither tap(that can be really fast) puts you out of combat, and a weaker staff hit, even with a quarter rotation or more it's too weak to take someone down, so, allowing a bladed weapon to enter his one move/hit range is a suicidal situation, but it inst hard to avoid with a trust attack(if practiced correctly) of course this doesn't work with padded equipment, because the shorter ranged fighter could easily enter his comfortable distance no matter if he gets hit first, but that wouldn't happen with real weapons and full speed strikes.
yes, with equal weapons the best trained wins, but people with the same training(i know it's hard to judge), the most efficient technique wins, and is a good thing that today we can try all those situations with sparing equipment, if we keep a mind on what works and not just count every kind of hit, or on the other hand don't count the important one.
As i see it one could only break the longer distance(avoiding a thrust) if he is really superior to the other fighter, meaning, he would be able to block while moving forward, and a disarmament of other kind of attacks from here are natural to happen from the one that has that superior skill. But of course that breaking that distance can also be a strategy, i just find it a harder one.
well, sorry for the off topic DeadlyKnuckles, what do people think of e-bogu staffs (e-bogu.com)?
Don't worry about it, I was just making sure no one forgot about me
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