Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata?

Posted by: harlan

Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/13/08 09:32 AM

The performance in this video is considered a winning one.

Anyone up for a little analysis? From a 'traditional' weapons standpoint...what's 'wrong' with this kata?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBZMMP4N7ik

(post is meant for fun and discussion...NOT bashing BTW)
Posted by: oldman

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/13/08 12:19 PM

He should use a bo and not a really, really, long pencil?
Posted by: cxt

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/13/08 01:02 PM

harlan

I go with oldman on this one---his "weapon" seems to be extremely light (or the guy is unusually strong )

I always find it distasteful when people use light weapons, "toothpick" bo's etc in meets---and if I were judgeing you would loose points---I once offered a guy a choice between getting zero points from me or doing his kata again with an actual weapon (wasn't going to do it BTW--just wanted to see what he would do)

The one handed stuff is nearly useless---weapon was too light for the strikes to be all that effective--plus it would too easy to lose the weapon utterly--can't block or cover or use the weapon effectively with one hand.

From a technique perspective IMO its very poor use of the weapon.....too much "poseing" too many "blind" techniques, too many "static" postions.

Also "choked up" too much on the bo---reduced its advanatge by making it too short---there are of course times and sitations to do exactly that--but there was little that indicted that is what he was doing.

I also got no sense of any actual "enemy" present---he was simply going thu the motions, not actually "fighting" anyone....as such it IMO looked more like a floor routine than a "kata."

Guy was good, I just would have gone a different route.

All kidding aside, the guy would likely have beaten me in that meet---what I would do would likely look "old fashoned" and "staid" and really "boreing" to him and the folks at that that meet.

I can live with that.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/13/08 01:22 PM

He was doing Wu Shu in an army karate competition?
Posted by: Chatan1979

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/13/08 09:44 PM

Quote:

harlan

I go with oldman on this one---his "weapon" seems to be extremely light (or the guy is unusually strong )

I always find it distasteful when people use light weapons, "toothpick" bo's etc in meets---and if I were judgeing you would loose points---I once offered a guy a choice between getting zero points from me or doing his kata again with an actual weapon (wasn't going to do it BTW--just wanted to see what he would do)

The one handed stuff is nearly useless---weapon was too light for the strikes to be all that effective--plus it would too easy to lose the weapon utterly--can't block or cover or use the weapon effectively with one hand.

From a technique perspective IMO its very poor use of the weapon.....too much "poseing" too many "blind" techniques, too many "static" postions.

Also "choked up" too much on the bo---reduced its advanatge by making it too short---there are of course times and sitations to do exactly that--but there was little that indicted that is what he was doing.

I also got no sense of any actual "enemy" present---he was simply going thu the motions, not actually "fighting" anyone....as such it IMO looked more like a floor routine than a "kata."

Guy was good, I just would have gone a different route.

All kidding aside, the guy would likely have beaten me in that meet---what I would do would likely look "old fashoned" and "staid" and really "boreing" to him and the folks at that that meet.

I can live with that.




Wow. I couldnt agree more CXT. I couldnt even finish watching the video. Being a traditional kobudoka myself there was just too many problems. Im not going to turn this into a XMA bashing thread, but I just have a problem with this being passed off as a martial art.
Posted by: jeff_andle

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/13/08 09:47 PM

Quote:

The performance in this video is considered a winning one.

Anyone up for a little analysis? From a 'traditional' weapons standpoint...what's 'wrong' with this kata?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBZMMP4N7ik

(post is meant for fun and discussion...NOT bashing BTW)




From a "traditional" sense what was wrong was that he was doing XMA-style long stick. He did it without it being flash and trash though.
Posted by: jeff_andle

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/13/08 09:51 PM

or should I say without it being as flash & trash as some xma...

It was a great example of what sells in movies though.

but for me, my dinged up rattan and waxwood staffs and the 1" thick red oak that adorns my doorway...
Posted by: harlan

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/14/08 10:08 AM

Okay. I'm trying to look at this kata.

1.It's so darn fast I'm having a hard time analyzing it. How the heck does a judge even evaluate this performance at such a ridiculous speed?

2. 'Tourney flash' aside (extended open sequence and odd closing), the techniques I can identify are jabs, 5 strike/godendon, ankle-like strikes, and blowing through a couple of blocks (side and I think an upper one). I'm completely unfamiliar with this 'technique' of wrapping the bo around one's neck, or what I 'think' are multiple parries or overhead swings used as an attack.

3. If there was a 'theme', I'd say it's 'attack'. I don't see tai-sabaki, or a lot of 'defense'. The kata goes so fast, it's hard for me to tell...but it looks like it only addresses attacks straight on.

4. I see athleticism, but not 'power'.

5. When I look at the kata, and the performance of, I try to 'read' the system. I don't see a lot in this one (feel free to educate me...that's why I'm asking).
Posted by: Chatan1979

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/14/08 12:38 PM

Thats just it, there really doesnt appear to be a "strategy" or any kind of tactics behind his techniques. I only see flash. If we look at traditional bo kata, the techniques are basic, simple and effective. They are meant to teach principles of Tai sabaki, sen, and other aspects. I can certainly appreciate this mans athleticism, however as CXT mentions above; "give him a real bo and lets see him do the same kata." I believe that traditional weapon kata were based and created upon realistic uses of the weapon and not "performance" or "theatrics".

As far as what the judges are looking for I guess it would depend on the tournament. Personally I have only taken part in 2 tournaments during the course of my training. I competed in weapons forms in both and took grand champ in both. I performed Shushi no Kon sho and Sakugawa no kun sho at both tournaments, with a real rokushaku bo, whereas all the other competitors were useing weapon "props" (one guy had kama that weighed four ounces...) and they were doing flashy creative kata similar to the video above.
My simple traditional kata beat out their flash. Why? who knows. A few judges approached me afterword and thanked me for doing something traditional for a change. Maybe they were just old fashioned and had more of an appreciation for traditional kata.
I just feel that if you are going to take the time to seriously learn weapons, you should learn to use them effectively and not simply to impress. By effective I mean learning everythign there isabout the weapon including what it feels like to make contact with another weapon or person. I can probably guess that the kata performed above, if he were to actually strike a target with any of those strikes, he would lose his bo. People get real good at flipping and spinning their props, until they meet another weapon and realize that they cant open their hands to spin the bo when another bo is thrusting at them. Okay Im done ranting. Didnt mean to go this long.
Posted by: ttruscott

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/14/08 06:33 PM

Super light weight weapons and video flash - this is why I quit attending tournaments or supporting them.`

Ted

Surviving A Street Knife Fight: Realistic Defensive Techniques A video review. This is not about how to beat someone trying to kill you with a knife. It is about staying alive through such a horrible experience.

I've done a review of
The Fighter's Body: An Owner's Manual: Your Guide to Diet, Nutrition, Exercise and Excellence in the Martial Arts: a very complete / comprehensive study of the topic, well worth reading by any athlete in your family.
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/14/08 08:34 PM

Isn't it so true, reality is more complex than we think it is.

check this out - Jeff Liotta VS. Mike Palitti - Sakugawa No Kon Bo Kata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFuzCF5btHY&feature=related

So Jeff Liotta doees juke and jive bo kata and traditional bo kata. Apparently he chooses which is appropriate for the competition venue.

The juke and jive pencil bo version is most definately going for speed, jump and pose then some quick passes, etc. with the addition of baton twirling (spins, rolling the bo around the neck and one handed movements, all more akin to baton exercises.

If you look at the following you'll see some of his one handed bo work 2005 World Baton Twirling Championships Promo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtlzxEYpK_o&feature=related

Look except for a small handfull of weapons (say stick and kinfe) most of the kobudo kata are nothing but historical docuemnts, all of which underwent changes as time moves.

The Taira/Akamine stylist would decry Isshinryu's version of some of their kata as being far removed from their 'pure' source. Doesn't mean those versions can't work. Heck I can use two kleenex tissues as a weapon, so pencil thin bo's aren't impossible, just unlikely from my point of view.

If I'm judging a division where everyone is baton twirling then I use twirling standards (do they look pretty). If I'm judging a division where traditional kobudo kata are included my standard is simple. They can do whatever they want but if their spin (or whatever) would hit a heavy bag full speed and they can't hang on to it, their score is a zero, for the absence of martial intent implies death, and I don't give scores to the dead (leaving that to Luicifer).

How you judge defines who you are.
What you're willing to stand in public and do, defines what you are.

IMO the range of traditional weapons is so vast, there is little reaon to dream up competition versions.

But remember the Chinese pointed the way to pencil thin bo's. They took their wushu arts, and turned to weightless weapons to go for the speed and form, and today's bo specialists are just imitating china...
Posted by: harlan

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/14/08 09:06 PM

Thanks for the input, Victor. I was curious about how a traditional view of kobudo might evaluate the first kata. But as you point out...it's the venue. And comparing apples to oranges.

Weapons clinic #2...if anyone would like to continue? Victor put up a more appropriate link. Analysis of this kata performance?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFuzCF5btHY&feature=related

I don't recognize it this version of Sakagowa, and Mr. Liotta's style isn't listed. Anyone know what system it's from?

Thank you.
Posted by: Chatan1979

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/15/08 06:57 AM

Hmmm . I didnt recognize those Sakugawas either. I see a few similar elements to the versions that I study. We study 3 version of Sakugawa: sho, dai, and ko. I liked the second guy better. His form was much cleaner and focused less on speed. His technique was strong and his strikes precise.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/15/08 07:06 AM

I liked the second fellow's performance better as well. Just for clarification, I'm not doing any kind of bashing/witchhunt. If I was tapped to be a judge...I figure these are the kinds of questions that one would ask.

I understand that Sakugawa is the oldest of the Okinawan bo katas? So there is probably a lot of variation? This one looks like bits of several of the bo katas (shushi, choun no kun, etc.).

I'm going to look at the traditional katas more...but what do you think about stances and power generation in this performance?
Posted by: sasori_te

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/15/08 09:30 AM

Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObRb11GUGsE

Have you ever seen those Loony Toon cartoons where Daffy Duck is spinning the staff and Porky Pig sticks a toothpick into the spin? That's what this guy reminds me of. If you would introduce anything and I mean nearly anything into the path of that weapon it would be gone and he'd likely have a broken wrist to show for the effort.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/15/08 09:38 AM

Well...to be fair. I think that example is from a school that doesn't teach anything traditional, or weapons. The bo kata is probably learned off of a video. As he states, he is just messing around.

http://www.thompsonsacademy.com/info/home.htm

Here is a seemingly earnest request for constructive criticism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5LxUrPvyDA
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/15/08 10:15 PM

Hi Narda,

In the case of the two competitors performing Saku-Gawa No Kon, they're both skilled but with apparent differences. Making a choice has a lot to do with your own preferences as to who is more 'correct' = scoring wise.

Even when Jeff (the first performer) is doing the traditional kata you see the other performance bo kata movement dynamics. While he is not extreme, the modern performance preference is to move quickly to a spot and then burn in the strikes, making the strikes the important thing.

The 2nd performer Mike, is moving differently, using more of his complete body motion into the strikes. IMVVVHO this is more the older tradition, the bo becoming an extension of the center.

While I prefer the 2nd performance, both work.

I see much more than just striking in bo kata, thus the more your entire body is engaged those potentials can be addressed.

Speed is wonderful but rarely truly necessary. Correct angling even to angle of entry can replace top speed, and as long as you enter their space at the moment they're trying to enter it, going faster doesn't mean as much.

My stuides don't perform Saku-Gawa No Kon, but it is interesting. Off hand I can see it in Innoue tradition, in the Matayoshi tradition, in the Taira Shinken to Innoue tradition (and likely many more).

There certainly must be differences, but if I had to guess the version both of them were using was a variation on one of the others (Such as the Matayoshi or Taira lineage) with the ending dropped (to make it shorter for contemporary tradition (such as the Japanese/Okinawa's I"ve seen who perform with shorter versions of Chantan Yara No Sai).

I can say I'm not a fan of the last punch in either performance. I'm of the let the weapon do all of the fighting school.

Well that's my quick analysis.

Personally I only use 4 bo forms. Isshinryu's 3 and the Bando Staff set 'the Horseman's Footsoldier's form'. I find that between those four almost all bo movement potential is addressed (or enough at least).

pleasantly,
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/16/08 08:45 PM

Hello Harlan:

<<what's 'wrong' with this kata?

His "weapon" needs a HUGE block of cheese on the end of it !!!! He also forgot to perform the dental floss (sic. complimentary) portion at all... shameful, shameful...

IMHO.

Jeff
Posted by: TwinDragonsNinja

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/22/08 05:18 AM

he also put his weapon behind his back at one point which no traditional school of karate would teach, (not mention it gives a window of oppertunity, even with his toothpick weapon)
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/22/08 07:35 AM

Quote:

The performance in this video is considered a winning one.

Anyone up for a little analysis? From a 'traditional' weapons standpoint...what's 'wrong' with this kata?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBZMMP4N7ik

(post is meant for fun and discussion...NOT bashing BTW)




It doesn't look like traditional kobudo to me - the bo is too light, there are too many flashy moves that don't correspond to combat applications. If anything it seems to have some Chinese wushu elements overlaid on an Okinawan base.

Having said this, the practitioner is highly skilled in his familiarity with the weapon and I was quite impressed.

I don't get very critical of something because it isn't "traditional" or "what I do". To me, this practitioner has mastered his chosen form, so I salute him. Quite fankly I wish I could do what he does. I am of the view that when you find something you can't do something you have identified a weakness. I'm just not sure whether my time would be optimally spent learning his skills when I have so many others to master that are directly relevant to my own studies at the present time.

And I agree that "bashing" the performance is totally inappropriate. This is clearly a sincere, hardworking martial artist demonstrating a very high level of skill. What's to bash? If he were a member of this forum would we be less inclined to slam what he does? I suspect we would be very much more tactful (well, most of us).

Hope this answers your query harlan...
Posted by: jeff_andle

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/28/08 09:00 PM

Quote:

Okay. I'm trying to look at this kata.

1.It's so darn fast I'm having a hard time analyzing it. How the heck does a judge even evaluate this performance at such a ridiculous speed?

...




Harlan, I accept XMA weapons for what they are - flashy showmanship of weapons handling. All of your points are dead on. I did XMA staff for a little while - not this well but good enough - and I judge XMA competitions. As XMA this is good.

The original post asked about it as a traditional weapon and everything you say is dead on. There is no application, no defense, just athleticism and showmanship. I also compete with traditional (as far as ATA protech is old enough to be traditional) staff form. It's a set poomse for 3rd dan weapons requirements and has very definitive patterns - block/strike/leg sweep, strike/strike/strike, block/sweep/strike, etc.

The differences are night and day.
Posted by: jeff_andle

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 05/28/08 11:35 PM

Quote:

Thanks for the input, Victor. I was curious about how a traditional view of kobudo might evaluate the first kata. But as you point out...it's the venue. And comparing apples to oranges.

Weapons clinic #2...if anyone would like to continue? Victor put up a more appropriate link. Analysis of this kata performance?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFuzCF5btHY&feature=related

I don't recognize it this version of Sakagowa, and Mr. Liotta's style isn't listed. Anyone know what system it's from?

Thank you.




many of those techniques are in my korean staff poomse but I don't know that. Both well executed.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 06/04/08 08:50 PM

Here is an interesting performance. Something you don't see much of on the internet (unsure of you tourney types...might be old hat for you). An older, Anglo female doing a traditional bo form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr4aJVK_018
Posted by: harleyt26

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 06/04/08 10:10 PM

Thats Katherine Loukopoulos a Hozon Shinko Kai sensei.She has a fairly large following in Europe.The kata is Sakagawa no Kun Sho.
Tom Hodges
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 06/05/08 04:05 AM

Outstanding!
Posted by: harlan

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 06/05/08 06:55 AM

Thanks for the tip! I've been trying to find out more about her. I guess at one point she was listed as 'Katherine Baxter' as well...but no one seems to know where is is now. I'd love to know more about this woman and where she is now.

Quote:

Thats Katherine Loukopoulos a Hozon Shinko Kai sensei.She has a fairly large following in Europe.The kata is Sakagawa no Kun Sho.
Tom Hodges


Posted by: Chatan1979

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 06/05/08 08:11 AM

Yeah that was a topnotch performance. Excellent use of koshi (hips) throughout. Ive noticed that some kobudo systems (ryukyu perhaps?) emphasize a strong, large hip movement whereas other styles like Matayoshi kobudo, do not emphasize it as much. That was a great kata. Looked very much like the first version of Sakugawa that I study. We do a Sho, Dai , and Ko version.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 06/05/08 08:19 AM

I was wondering if that hip movement was mostly for demonstration. I had a recent conversation with my teacher regarding a section of that kata. Typically, Matayoshi said, 'You should be stepping like you are sneaking up on your girlfriend.' Now, depending on the syncranization (sp?) of the foot landing and the strike...it alters the power generation. So...yes...I found the koshi here an interesting difference.
Posted by: Chatan1979

Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? - 06/05/08 10:32 AM

we typically teach to have our strikes, thrusts, etc to coincide with foot placement . So you are completing your strike as you are completing your step, thereby utilizing that forward , or backward momentum to assist in power generation.