Movies with staffs vs. swords
Posted by: WhiteDragon11
Movies with staffs vs. swords - 06/10/07 08:44 PM
So most people here have watched the martial arts videos. How do wooden staffs withstand swords and other metal/steel weapons? Are they wooden or do they just look wooden? I have seen swords cut wood but staffs are never cut in the movies?
Any knowledge of this?
Posted by: Tashigae
Re: Movies with staffs vs. swords - 06/10/07 11:19 PM
I have no idea how to use a staff against a sword, but using the staff to block the blade doesn’t sound like a great idea to me, when you look at what a decent blade can do. It doesn’t mean the staff isn’t worthy against swords though, because history provides examples of such fights won by the staff. Muso Gonnosuke is said to be the only man to ever defeat the great Miyamoto Musashi, using a bo he shortened specially for the occasion so as to gain a speed advantage – thus inventing the jo. If I remember right, there are a few occurrences of the Shaolin monks being sent to battle like a regular army unit, and the staff was their field weapon (I assume at least some of their enemies had swords). So the staff must be usable against blades, I just don’t know how (I just know blocks are definitely a big no-no, but some would say that this applies to any advanced fighting anyway…).
Wo Hu Cang Long (Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon in its English version) provides an exemple of a sword-VS-staff fight, where the staff DOES get cut (the user switching from long staff fighting techniques to cane fighting techniques).
Posted by: Chatan1979
Re: Movies with staffs vs. swords - 06/11/07 08:07 AM
I have seen swords cut wood but staffs are never cut in the movies?
You already answered this. " in the movies." not real life. Be careful about putting too much belief into what is fed to you by the movies.
Posted by: puffadder
Re: Movies with staffs vs. swords - 06/11/07 12:38 PM
I have used both and it's a fabulous experience as they are soo different and you approach your martial arts in 2 very different ways.
Generally I believe you use the staff as a kind of body armour, the whirling circular and stabbing moves will either block the sword or hit the attacking arm (or attacker). You say blocks are a no no but in fact very few swords could cut a staff in half with one blow as they are going against the grain of the staff. In fact they usually cut partway then get stuck in the staff which gives the staff wielder a second or 2 to conterattack before swordsman can get his sword out and ready again!
Posted by: WhiteDragon11
Re: Movies with staffs vs. swords - 06/11/07 07:49 PM
I am not saying this happens in the real life it is why I put the post saying "movies"
Maybe it wouldnt break in the first attack, but I would think eventually the staff would snap.
Posted by: Chatan1979
Re: Movies with staffs vs. swords - 06/11/07 07:59 PM
Quote:
I have used both and it's a fabulous experience as they are soo different and you approach your martial arts in 2 very different ways.
Generally I believe you use the staff as a kind of body armour, the whirling circular and stabbing moves will either block the sword or hit the attacking arm (or attacker). You say blocks are a no no but in fact very few swords could cut a staff in half with one blow as they are going against the grain of the staff. In fact they usually cut partway then get stuck in the staff which gives the staff wielder a second or 2 to conterattack before swordsman can get his sword out and ready again!
I would never go toe to toe witha sword with a bo of any kind. I dont follow your logic about using the bo as body armor. We are not talking about an Anime cartoon. Most of the spinning movements of the bo are interpreted as locks and throws. If we are talking about a japanese Shinken it can and will cut through the bo even if you are twirling it.One the person with sword manages to close the distance between you and he it is over, because the bo is weak at the engagement distance that a sword would use. The bo cannot match the speed of the sword. the are just too many reasons to list as to why yoou would not take a staff against a sword. There are too many romantic theories about the humble , peacfeul monk who only uses his pacifist staff to defend himself against the mighty evil sword weilding enemy. I am not saying it is impossible to defend against a sword sword witha staff, but it would be stupid unless you had no other alternative.
Posted by: puffadder
Re: Movies with staffs vs. swords - 06/12/07 11:54 AM
I agree and my remarks were on the one in a trillion chance that a person was attacked by a swordsman with only a staff to defend himself. Staffs are long range weapons and once you get inside it's spin it is useless and is best either dropped or, better still, maybe allow your opponent to grab it so it hinders him rather than you while you attack freely at close range.
The only point I was making is I would rather face a swordsman with a staff than with nothing at all, rather the staff take the cuts then my body!
Posted by: badeofblade
Re: Movies with staffs vs. swords - 07/14/07 12:06 PM
You would you the staff as a spear. And when it comes to cutting a staff, you NEVER BLOCK DIRECTLY ON THE BLADE, it's always from an angle. Holding the staff like a spear makes this easier. Also, a thrust with a spear is MUCH fast than a slash with a sword, and if you remember reading this (I can't remember where it's from) "A samurai with his Katana, working against a man armed with a spear, must be 4 times stronger than the man with the spear, due to the advantages of his weapon."
Just because a staff doesn't have a blade doesn't discount it's use. Personally, I'd RATHER use the staff.
Posted by: WhiteDragon11
Re: Movies with staffs vs. swords - 07/14/07 10:52 PM
OK that is a good point. I wont disagree with anything you said.
Good idea blocking at an angle. I guess though to fight a swordsman I would definately need to practice blocking. I block directly on like horizontally, vertically (not really angles).
Posted by: badeofblade
Re: Movies with staffs vs. swords - 07/15/07 01:43 PM
I did sort of go on a rant there, sorry =P
Just, even with sword-on-sword, blocking directly doesn't work- breaks the edge. With a staff though, I guess you have to be really careful of the blade sliding down the length of the staff... Tricky situation.
Posted by: SpeedyGonzales
Re: Movies with staffs vs. swords - 08/12/07 04:24 AM
Quote:
So most people here have watched the martial arts videos. How do wooden staffs withstand swords and other metal/steel weapons? Are they wooden or do they just look wooden? I have seen swords cut wood but staffs are never cut in the movies?
Any knowledge of this?
I read somewhere that despite having some exteremely high quality and even non-reproducible swords from the past, historically "most swords" that the general samurai population had was low quality. We tend to hear about the most famous samurai and the highest quality swords, but I read that the common saurai (I know that sounds like an oxymoron) had cheaper swords, not all of which could cut through bo or jo. Black Belt Magazine in its most recent cover article about swords confirmed that many common swords could not cut through bo. So who knows, maybe if the bo/jo wielder was skilled with a thick and high quality bo/jo and the sword wielder had a bad sword with little skill it would be feasible.
Posted by: northstar
Re: Movies with staffs vs. swords - 08/12/07 11:02 AM
Badeofblade was on the money. Once a sword or knife touches the stick it is extremely difficult to avoid having your fingers sliced up by very simply running the blade along the staff.
Another factor that is emphasized in my training is that when blade cuts into the wood, it will 'catch' and there is a moment of opportunity to use this to 'lead' your opponent's weapon.
Posted by: WhiteDragon11
Re: Movies with staffs vs. swords - 08/12/07 01:31 PM
Nice to know Speedy.
Posted by: SpeedyGonzales
Re: Movies with staffs vs. swords - 08/12/07 02:20 PM
Quote:
Badeofblade was on the money. Once a sword or knife touches the stick it is extremely difficult to avoid having your fingers sliced up by very simply running the blade along the staff.
Yes, the staff wielder will still be at a disadvantage, of course. But it is possible and has happened that the guy with the big stick wins.
Quote:
Nice to know Speedy.
Posted by: Ives
Re: Movies with staffs vs. swords - 08/13/07 07:27 AM
Blocking with a bo is nearly always in an angle (30 to 45 degrees).
By the bo's movement a blade could be redirected off. Blocking is also most of the time combined with tai-sabaki (body movement out of the attack-line).
The stabing with a bo is also a thing that isn't that comfortable to recieve.
Another thing, I don't know if it's true, but I heard that many samurai didn't always use their shinken if they had one, but many would fight with their bokken.
Posted by: SpeedyGonzales
Re: Movies with staffs vs. swords - 08/13/07 10:35 PM
This video has an incredibly thick wooden hexagonal staff with a demonstration (movie-style though) against a sword. It could definitely work.
Quote:
Another thing, I don't know if it's true, but I heard that many samurai didn't always use their shinken if they had one, but many would fight with their bokken.
Very few used bokken to fight in a real life and death battle or duel, but the one you heard of was probably Musashi.
In real life, during the real warring periods, most samurai used bows and arrows and then spears and such at close range. Few used swords as a first choice.
Posted by: Tashigae
Re: Movies with staffs vs. swords - 08/14/07 12:12 PM
What video are you talking about?
Posted by: SpeedyGonzales
Re: Movies with staffs vs. swords - 08/14/07 09:17 PM
Quote:
This video has an incredibly thick wooden hexagonal staff with a demonstration (movie-style though) against a sword. It could definitely work.
Quote:
Another thing, I don't know if it's true, but I heard that many samurai didn't always use their shinken if they had one, but many would fight with their bokken.
Very few used bokken to fight in a real life and death battle or duel, but the one you heard of was probably Musashi.
In real life, during the real warring periods, most samurai used bows and arrows and then spears and such at close range. Few used swords as a first choice.
whoops forgot to post the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIefORMQt0I
The big staff thing starts around 1:18
Posted by: creinig
Re: Movies with staffs vs. swords - 08/23/07 08:58 AM
A youtube search for "smr jo", "jodo", "ryu jo" or "kumijo" should yield some useful results.
Also there's e.g. this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGq27KT7D9g
Posted by: badeofblade
Re: Movies with staffs vs. swords - 09/06/07 09:05 PM
When training, -unformally though, I must add,- I usually block forcefully with a staff... As to knock the sword away, stop the sword sliding, and open the centre line.
Posted by: CloudKr
Re: Movies with staffs vs. swords - 09/11/07 10:20 PM
u can fight a sword with a bo, but u have to deflect it or never stop it dead cuz then you will just get your weapon sliced in two...