RUN for the door.......

I disagree.

"the closer your grip is to the string the more speed and control you have. the farther away from the string you go will make your hits a bit slower but alot stronger."

Hello Formless:

In the generic, I wonder how many arts maintain intact a nunchaku practice? In the generic, a-typically it seems obscenely popular with those who want to play with weapons rather than study a weapon art.... no offense intended!

I am not denying the valididy of the flail (ie nunchaku) as a weapon yet purely as a bias factor in the certain "youth" of most who undertake it... <shrug>

Relative to other weapons are there many bonefide nunchaku kata? Guess I'll have to find my Inoue, Taira and Draeger books respectively and see what they list/not...

Jeff

I look at nunchaku as an introduction to flexible (rope, chain, etc.) weapons...and becoming more familiar with the motion and body dynamics (i.e. kata is not really important).

Hello Ives:

<<Thanks for your reaction.

As always thank you for your interesting views!!!!

<<(Sorry English isn't my language.)

I would never have known... it is pretty good regardless.


You spoke of finding balance previously... along that line, how do you tell if whomever has done the 100% MANDATORY "safety check" of any, every weapon they will practice with whether their Tonfa, Bo, Sai, Nunchaku, Eku, Kama, sword, etc., etc. or the schools weapon?

What will show us that? COnsider if the pin holding the Japanese katana blade to the handle of that sword is not carefully checked there could be very serious consequences... if the bo is not checked for chipping, cracks and is used... you pick the weapon, what should they be carefully searching to see if the weapon being used will hurt themselves or others due to defect or damage? How does/can someone determine that from the sidelines?

And what of storage? Lent against a wall, in a corner given enough moisture/time will eventually warp the bo... being stored in a rack looks far better, less cluttered, yet also might bend the bo more depending on the humidity factor, wouldn't it???

How does one store weapons in such a manner as to indicate "correct" and serious nature of the practice vs. seeing XYZ in the method of storage of them which should push you to the door as fast as your feet will carry you?!?!

And yes, I too would be very leery of any weapon that was not full weight, spangled, or otherwise adorned regardless of the circus art popularity of doing so. Red tassels are about my "limit" of acceptable.... and I would accept that playfully grudgingly...

Thoughts
J

Hello Paradoxbox:

So "somber" is the generic necessity... ok.


<<But many mainland Japanese styles feature the index finger pointing off the weapon (except during strikes/cuts, then it's retracted).

If my structure is damaged/broken purely becuase of vulnerability of those extended digits (in that position)... literally how can we hold the weapons???

J

One school I "ran" from used "bo's" that were 5' mop handles with colored plastic flagging tied to the ends. It's pretty when you twirl it. I'm lying though. This was my first school and it took me a year to leave. I kept believing that our waving the mop handles in local demo's was just the prelude to really learning "something". It wasn't.

An alternative to schools that make you "run" for the door are those that might make you just exit pretty quick.

Telltales: having no practice (kumi) bo's, seeing toothpick bo's, all kata and no sparring play, no weapon contact (not even the lightest sense of kumite excluding even bo/bo and mixed weapon line drills).

My personal opinion is that weapons are just too much fun to play with, to give it all up for some dry as dust pure kata program. Weapons are meant to be played with, just like kids learn to play baseball and softball - throwing it back and forth.

Weapon practice should NOT be labeled as 'PLAY'. Weapons should be respected as WEAPONS that have the potential to seriously hurt the practitioner should he ever not respect it. The second you dont respect a weapon for what it can do, you get hurt. You wouldnt let kids play with loaded guns would you? And yes Traditional weapons kata are not dusty relics. They are just a profound and full of knowledge as any empty hand kata if you take the time to study them.

Sorry if I struck a nerve Chatan. I do not disagree with anything you said. I suspect we simply have different perspectives.

If the word "play" is offensive, substitute "use with thorough enjoyment in a safe and controlled manner".

Additionally, I criticized programs that ONLY do kata, not the kata themselves. Kata without kumite is nonsense, like playing baseball with no ball.

I am extremely fortunate to be in a small (four person) dojo of mature (older) adults who have curiosity and skill, but almost no egos. Our sparring is spirited but controlled and always a pleasure. We often consider it play. This unique situation probably leaves me ignorant of the challenges that children, teens and immature adults create with weapons.

Ah okay i see where you were going then. It sounds like we come from Similar kobudo schools then. We work about 40 traditional kobujutsu kata. We do kumite, and kitachi as well as breaking down the kata with bunkai and applications. I apologize if i came on too strong. I do agree with your statement about only doing kata. Its always entertaining to see someone who only does kata and thinks that they are competent with the weapon until they actually make contact with another weapon in kumite, and the weapon flies out of their hands. tameshirwari and tameshirgiri are absolutely necessary to understanding traditional weapons.

"It's always entertaining to see someone who only does kata and thinks that they are competent with the weapon until they actually make contact with another weapon in kumite, and the weapon flies out of their hands."

Yes, exactly so. Thank you for your patience with me.

I study Ryukyu Hon Kenpo-Kobujutsu, in a remote outpost of the Kriegish organization. Our local teacher is sincerely jutsu oriented so we spend much time on bunkai and kumite, as well as kata.

HelloChatan1979:

<<We work about 40 traditional kobujutsu kata.

Wow....

In some respects for ME, that too could, could mind you be a potential ~warning bell~. Too many kata... could be nutricious "succatash" or might just be junk food... ahhh how to tell?!?!? (Point of personal interest, what the blazes does your arts syllibus look like???? X Bo, X Sai, X Kama, X Tonfa, X Oar, etc. how does that break out???)

<< kitachi tameshirwari and tameshirgiri

<SIGH> My meager Japanese has its limits I fear.... these terms mean what again???

J

Hello Again Chatan1979:

As a personal matter, and I realize its solely my bias/impression, I am VERY, very leery for example of anyplace which teaches the Japanese katana (whether kenjutsu or iaido, or ???). And while any dojo would be relatively easy to track down in terms of its lineage being a bone-fide ryuha, qualified instructors etc., I have meaningful doubts of anybody simply opening up a store front ~in town~ and simply hanging out a shingle teaching I don't know... an Itten or Shinkage lineage instructor? I am sure you get my gist....

Doing so would fly in the face of everything I've ever read/understood in terms of arts and heritage of the professional Japanese warriors. I am cognizant that Iaido is a different creature than kenjutsu in some respects, but a place where weapons instruction is centered around a katana would, (perhaps could is a better way to phrase it...) be a huge potential warning sign...

Am I in error in this very generic perception????

J

The system of Kobujutsu i study is called Nintai Fukutsu ryu Kobujutsu. The idea behind all the kata is that we are preserving these kata for research. The curriculum is very dificult. BUt on average its about 3 kata per rank. By shodan you are comepetent in about 25 or so.
I do about 25 of the kata myself but really only focus on a few for pure kata study (i.e bunkai, zanshin, oyo, kakushi, etc). Like I said the study of so many kata is in order to preserve them for further study.
At white belt you start learning bo and one kata
at yellow, you learn a second bo form and pick up sai and one sai kata,
orange belt is bo, sai, and starting nunchaku,
green is bo, sai, nunchaku, tonfa,
blue we start kama
we have 3 degrees of brown belt in which we pick up a few more kata for the above mentioned weapons, and also start studying Eku, nuntie, and Tekko.
The higher dan ranks are reserved for studying such weapons as rochin and tinbe, Kusurigama, and surichin.

I dont want all the kata to make it sound like we just race through the motions in order to get the next rank. on average it takes about 7 or more years to get to shodan. So the student is spending time learning not only kata, but the anatomy of combat, kumite, bunkai, proper weapon handling, distancing, timing, strategies of combat I.e go no sen, sen no sne, tai no sen, and their tactics such as Suriage waza, katsugi waza, harai waza and etc.
It is a very very thorough study of weapons. The system itself blends Matayoshi and Ryukyu kobudo. So one of the otehr reasons for so many kata is that we do kata from both systems. I would be happy to post the link to our site, however it is currently unavailable. My sensei is trying to preserve ryukyu kobudo kata in a similar fashion as Shinken Taira Sensei. I am always happey to answer any questions.

Chatan, I replied by PM.

Hello Chatan1979

25 kata.... I am in genuine awe of a syllibus which can boast of 25 kata (ie direct koryu material). Kind of like ...Shitoryu Karatedo (sic. -Te) syllibus on "speed"!I am choking & overwhelmed with the "measley" 9 empty handed and the 6 kobudo kata to which I have known access...

25 would quite literally

<<preserve them for further study.

How can you literally maintian them without being a full time teacher given how many you possess??? Its is hard to conceive that many not driving one insane... especially if they were relatively recent Okinawan "kobudo" kata. Some of the ~elder~ Japanese weapons kata, I might be able to conceive as many I imagine would be literally a few moves in their entirity....

<<it takes about 7 or more years to get to shodan.

How many are able to endure that length of time training?

<<I would be happy to post the link to our site

When available, please do so... look forward to looking it all up.... would the days were longer and my retention skills were longer still...

J

Please dont confuse Okinawan kobudo kata with japanese koryu. They are not the same thing. While some of the kata that I study do go back a few hundred or more years, they are not considered koryu. As far as you question as to how we maintain so many kata, we keep records, videos, journals and we practice ALOT!

So if I do handsprings, cartwheels, and flips while holding a bo in each hand I'm doing something wrong?



What if I do this while holding my chucka sticks ? >>


<GROAN>

Hello Chatan1979:

<<Please dont confuse Okinawan kobudo kata with japanese koryu. They are not the same thing.

My apologies, it is what happens when I use foreign terminology, I should know better!!! The koryu arts being exclusively the arts of professional Japanese soldiers (ie Samurai) prior to what the Meiji era? Kobudo kata would one assumes be the "civilian" version indiginous to the Ryukyu islands, correct? In short far less metal all around though no less lethal weaponry?

J

Hello Borreck:

Wonderful reminder thank you.... TROPHIES. A screen of trophies in the front window being an excellent neon sign to escape that locale at all costs... As for ~Extreme Martial Arts "Trophies"~... aren't those the body parts of your fallen opponents

J

There is japanese Kobudo and Okinawan Kobudo. For the most part you are correct. Japanses Kobudo focuses more on weapons such as Yari(spear)Kusurigama and a few other more samurai related weapons, whereas Ryukyu or Okinawan kobudo tends to focus more on the peasant weaponry or farming /fishing implements

What would indicate "bad news" (ie run) for some of the "sharper" weapons? Kama being the particular weapon I envisioned but knives, sharpened jutte, short swords, surely would ~fit the bill~ as well.

Hoping to borrow the eyes/warning-signals from those with far more experience, training with these assorted weapons....thank you in advance.

J

when you throw one escirma stick up in the air do some gay move then hopefully catch the second one..

It was bad enough when he said it did you really need to follow-up encouraging him??? Behave please gentlemen... please...

J