Hand Protection?

Posted by: Ronin1966

Hand Protection? - 12/13/05 01:38 PM

When practicing with "traditional" weapons do members use HAND protection of some type?

Or if your particular art instructs children (yes I know a generic no-no) in basic weapons practice, do they use hand protection of some type?

Solo practice, there is no functional need, but in application, or partner practice <shrug> I could be convinced of a valid potential need... pretty quickly.

Thoughts?
J
Posted by: harlan

Re: Hand Protection? - 12/13/05 01:45 PM

No. But I'm a newbie, and so 'I depend entirely on the kindness of others.'
Posted by: phoenixsflame

Re: Hand Protection? - 12/13/05 02:46 PM

No. This is my philosophy with it, basically what Harlan says. "Kindness of others" except... Well, not kindness but skill.

If you're doing Pairs practice Bunkai, then you should be moving slowly at first, and into more speed only when you are ready. Its for me, a practice of skill/timing and control. If you are doing Bo/Bo, then if your hands are far enough apart you shouldn't have a problem.

With the Sai's, if you're not improperly curling your pointer finger up. You'll be fine. Kama... well, Kama is a hard one to do against most things. Unless they're dulled, in which cause it takes a lot more control on the Kama side than any of the other weapons due to the position of the striking surface. Nunchaku are pretty easy to protect yourself and keep others safe.... Tonfa the same. Since all the blocks with the Tonfa are mainly against the forearm, (or braced by the other Tonfa/forearm, or are spinning catches, etc. Rarely is your hand in the direction of the attack)

Eku, well, truthfully I've never really seen much done in partners with the Eku. I've only seen one, and it was Sai-Sai/Eku...

Those are just my thoughts, i've never seen any actual Kumite with weapons that weren't foam based/pvc/boffer (for obvious safety reasons)
Posted by: Ives

Re: Hand Protection? - 12/13/05 03:48 PM

We never use hand protection. But we are in training to learn. And when you try to learn, you don't want to hurt eachother. That's only in SD situations. Never in practice.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Hand Protection? - 12/14/05 01:22 AM

No

Skill then Speed

Sometimes it's good to get your knuckles/fingers rapped - you appreciate your weapon all the more.
Posted by: Ives

Re: Hand Protection? - 12/14/05 06:43 AM

Totally agree. Not only knuckles, also the ankles tend to help on that!
Posted by: phoenixsflame

Re: Hand Protection? - 12/14/05 09:46 AM

Quote:

No

Skill then Speed

Sometimes it's good to get your knuckles/fingers rapped - you appreciate your weapon all the more.





Exactly.
Posted by: DanielArola

Re: Hand Protection?-hockey gloves for FMA - 12/14/05 01:01 PM

Here's a single stick sparring video I edited myself of myself in the light grey shirt versus US Army Capt. Marc E of Ft Bragg who is a "Dog Brothers MA training group" group leader for his soldiers. Marc of a Special Forces division has already been deployed once and redeployed a second time (and now back since 7/05) overseas to participate in the current war going on in Iraq.

http://media.putfile.com/DAMAG-INC11-07-05livesticksparringbreakdown-Dan-v-Marc

Edited in full and slow motion speeds.

You will see why hand protection is important when a person wants to take their training to reality-based levels.


Daniel Arola
Posted by: phoenixsflame

Re: Hand Protection?-hockey gloves for FMA - 12/14/05 05:07 PM

Quote:


You will see why hand protection is important when a person wants to take their training to reality-based levels.




I wouldn't neccisarily call that a reality-based level of practical self defense. I do not think it would be an exchange of blows, but a blow to open up and allow for a disabiling strike and/or lock. This is more along the lines of something Kendo-esque with the Arni/Escrima... Then a simple fencing mask and gloves aren't what should be used. If you want to practice in a true manner with any weapon, body protection is needed. If you do not have it, there is no point.

I have never practiced Stick Fighting or had instruction on it. However, the video looked sloppy to me. The techniques were not done with any amount of control, and often the people doing them had their heads dipped to one side or the other,or down and were not watching with the fullness of their awareness where their attacks were going.

I've done Kendo, I've done light armor Western Ratan Sword Fighting, I've practiced (not as much as I'd like) with other weapons as well. If we're talking reality based, the Arni/Escrima/Jo has an application not even demonstrated in the video. Which are locks, throws and jabs. The most common manuever I saw on the video was a figure eight left to right, or a modified figure eight high and low.

The "hand protection" we were discussing, has nothing to do with the Light Contact Sparring the video contained, instead it was aimed more towards the Bunkai training of Kobudo, or other weapons. Not full sparring, as far as I understood the question.

I've never seen full contact sparring in Traditional Martial Arts, as I have mentioned before, unless the weapons themselves were Foam. I think padding the weapon, yet giving them realistic heft is a much better option. If you train with your visability limited or the manuverability of your hand restrained (I know with the Sai, the Tonfa and the Kama, finger movement, hand movement is Key and one that the Hockey Gloves would not allow for.)

These are simply my thoughts on the matter...
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Hand Protection?-hockey gloves for FMA - 12/14/05 11:49 PM

1st, I'm not anything close to an expert but...

Hockey gloves were always too restricting so I never used anything. I suffered but the initial pain became nothing after a while. That said, I also admit I never trained full contact because I hadn't arrived @ that level.

Full contact w/ sloppy technique is of no value that I can see - both parties only injure each other. It should only be offered as a training method to those w/ many years under their belts.

Check out the Dog Bros. website & they have the best alternative to the hockey glove. Designed by Guro Edgar Sulite, it's worth trying.
Posted by: phoenixsflame

Re: Hand Protection?-hockey gloves for FMA - 12/15/05 01:15 AM

Quote:

1st, I'm not anything close to an expert but...

Hockey gloves were always too restricting so I never used anything. I suffered but the initial pain became nothing after a while. That said, I also admit I never trained full contact because I hadn't arrived @ that level.

Full contact w/ sloppy technique is of no value that I can see - both parties only injure each other. It should only be offered as a training method to those w/ many years under their belts.

Check out the Dog Bros. website & they have the best alternative to the hockey glove. Designed by Guro Edgar Sulite, it's worth trying.




I fully agree with HK Here. When it comes down to it, you need finger articulation, wrist articulation and the ability to do it quickly and accurately. This is my understanding of it, I am however, coming from more of a Traditional Japanese/Okinawan Kobudo view, mixing my knowledge of the Bo, Jo, and Aikido... Thus, I have a different view than most.
Posted by: traq

Re: Hand Protection?-hockey gloves for FMA - 12/24/05 01:17 PM

I agree with the need for mobility in kubudo. In fact, I don't wear much gear for regular sparring either, chest protectors especially suck. You can't move, and you're a bigger target.

In kubudo, as long as your partner has some control, you shouldn't need to wear hand protection. the ocaisonal smashed fingers should simply encourage you to pay more attention to where your partner's weapon is headed.
Posted by: Joss

Re: Hand Protection?-hockey gloves for FMA - 01/18/06 03:38 PM

We do a variety kumite and of contact levels on a broad mix of Okinawan weapons (I am a student in a very small RHKKF dojo).

We do the basic kumite kata: bo/bo, bo/sai, bo/tonfa.

We also do light and loosly strcutured free sparing: Bo vrs bo, tonfa, sai, shinai; shinai vrs tonfa and shinai, escrima sticks vrs bo or shinai. This can become pretty fast but is without protective gear and no egos involved so USUALLY the worst is skinned or sore knuckles.

The heaviest we do is still only moderate, certainly not full power. This is done with hockey gloves and fencing masks, though I am looking into hockey shin guards, elbow pads, etc to see where they might add. A morninig of that commonly results in a number of sore spots to include numerous 1" diameter bruises on the torso.

I agree on many points with the previous posts and add some observations:

It seems every benefit gained from protective gear results in a compromise elsewhere. If you use it too much, you begin forget that you can be hurt without it. If you don't use it at all you may be missing a an important diminsion.

Hockey gloves are so limiting of dexterity that about all they work well with are bo and escrima sticks. They seem to be horrible for tonfa or sai. Without them though, one hardly becomes accustomed to the fact that the hands are a most viable target.

The masks are similar. They make it much more difficult to see. Without, them though, we exercise sooo much control on lunges to the face that this MOST useful technique of maintaining separation (mai) needed for a bo is lost because it is not taken seriously by the opponant. As an example, in bo vrs the shorter weapons, without masks the shorter weapons often prevail. Once the masks go on, however, it is much more difficult to get inside because the bo is continually punching you in the face.

Unless you are actually getting pounded on a bit, which requires SOME gear, you may never learn that there is often a point in weapons where you lose yours. After getting beaten on some, it becomes reflexive that the safest place is NOW inside your opponent's weapon, beating on him empty-hand.

The corollary of this is finding you have disarmed your opponent but, just while you were celebrating this, he climbed right up your bo and is now pounding you in the head.

Last: Nothing much is quite as scary as the other guy with sai, pointy side out.
Posted by: Ronin1966

Hand Protection? - 01/19/06 08:40 AM

Hello Ives:

Thank you for your contribution. No hand protection on a philosophical basis, "...in training to learn. And when you try to learn, you don't want to hurt eachother..."? Ok....

But given the nature of these weapons, in order to explore each others grip, hand positioning, so forth, a good deal of power is used, as such each others control is.... dubious.... or at least lessor? I'm not going full-force, but I am going hard enough to disarm if able... <shrug> as such my fingers, wrists are in a potential "danger zone".

Hense, am curious what/how others conduct their prespective weapons trainings....? Control is paramount, but as novices, or even lessor experience people, (one would think) would be wearing the hockey gloves, the kendo gloves, something to protect even minimally the hands and wrists of its practitioners. At higher technical abilities... X-ka beware!!! (ie The skill to harm is greatly increased knowingly or otherwise)

Merely my opinion, I could surely be mistaken,
Jeff
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Hand Protection? - 01/19/06 08:49 AM

<<Skill then Speed

Speed then power

<<Sometimes it's good to get your knuckles/fingers rapped -

Ouch politely, respectfully... if I get mashed by almost any of these weapons, I stand a more than fair chance to be potentially seriously injured even by the most inept, unskilled partners. I understand the perspective intellectually, but purely as a practical matter that feels awfully blase, dangerous in that way....

These are weapons, and assuming one is NOT careless, not blase, they are inherently dangerous solely by their nature, no? It strikes me as a razor thin serious line one walks...

J
Posted by: harlan

Re: Hand Protection? - 01/19/06 08:53 AM

Absolutely.

Quote:

It strikes me as a razor thin serious line one walks...



Posted by: Ronin1966

Hand Protection?-hockey gloves for FMA - 01/19/06 09:03 AM

Helo Joss:

Yes, this is a paradox. Train vs. not; serious is inherent to all weapon practice so I cannot give/find an opposite there easily

I can think of one weapon you did not mention which even dulled is pointy and dangerous, the kama! The sai have more weight to smash, but I could walk into a sai (pointing at me) without too much difficulty. Kama even dulled have that nasty pointy tip

Those of ancient ryuha, those of schools with long traditions, generations of practitioners... they surely faced our dilemmas too at some level...

Even professional soldiers practicing these arts then or now, you don't want to kill them, mangle them, maim them because of simple practice... doing so tends to cut down their/our abilities to practice! "...Sorry I injured my wrist, cannot hold this weapon because of the swelling, bone brusie, fracture, etc., etc...."

Don't know what the answer is personally, but this is a good discussion, thank you for offering yourr thoughts.

J
Posted by: Reiki

Re: Hand Protection?-hockey gloves for FMA - 01/19/06 01:32 PM

Precisely why some weapons training is left until the practioner reaches a certain level of proficiency and can control themselves.

Otherwise you have the "razor in the hands of a monkey" problem.

I've had far more injuries in general training caused by people who were just starting their MA journey than in hours of free sparring with my own level and above where we just went for it.

I've had crushed knuckles from mis-aimed sticks, arms nearly dislocated in grappling when I repeatedly tapped and the person didn't release and once got kicked in the throat by a fat girl when we were supposed to be doing precision front kicks and just touching the other persons belt with our toes! Luckily I sensed it coming and moved back so she just grazed me otherwise I wouldn't be here today.

Imagine those same students with a katana. <<<shudder>>>
Posted by: Ives

Re: Hand Protection?-hockey gloves for FMA - 01/19/06 02:26 PM

That was very mean of that girl...
Glad you are still alive.

Oh yeah, and I agree with the point you made.

We aren't training at full speed and power because we all are at a beginners level. Just learning to understand the bo and sai.
I'm getting the hang of them! basic techniques that is.
Posted by: Joss

Re: Hand Protection?-hockey gloves for FMA - 01/20/06 09:11 AM

Ronin,

I defer to your kama, sir. We have put so little time into them I neglected to think of them. But what little we have moves them to the front of the "Scary Line" for me.

And as far as the weapon training dilemma, I'm sure that crosses eastern and western boundaries as well as time; Spartans, Romans, Crusaders, etc. Anytime there have been organized "soldiers" there have probably been the question of realistic, yet survivable, training. The eternal compromise.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Hand Protection? - 01/20/06 09:30 PM

Just a point of clarification:
I wrote "rapped" not "smashed". By that, I mean strikes that can be shaken off. I was fortunate enough to have a training partner (a bit less skilled than me) who understood - as I do - that precision, not raw power, led to skill. I have not been injured. My sympathies to you all who have.
Posted by: Subedei

Re: Hand Protection? - 01/21/06 05:39 AM

Three words:

Articulated, plate, gauntlet

Posted by: Reiki

Re: Hand Protection? - 01/21/06 08:34 PM

LOL, I'm just thinking about getting some of those!

Hourglass ones. Very nice & handy in my line of hobby. Could be a good sparring tool for stick fighting too!

I have a nice set of leg harnesses including cuisse and greaves but haven't got the arm harnesses & pauldrons yet.
Posted by: mike-a

Re: Hand Protection? - 01/26/06 08:31 PM

If you include *any* kind of protection, you change the "game" hugely. People with head protection will move and fight differently than those without. I imagine Dog Brother style stickfighting would be a lot different without the headgear. WEKAF eskrima players would change the close range they usually fight at with no head and body protectors (and heavier sticks...)

Sparring, no matter how realistic, is a training method, not an all-out fight. This is why any really traditional sword schools in Japan (for example Tenshin Shoden Katori Shito Ryu, the oldest school in Japan) do not spar. The only way to be true to their art and training, would be to use live swords. And that is a very quick way to run out of training partners.

Sparring is a tool. It develops timing, control, stamina and a host of other attributes. The level of protection you use is a compromise between safety and the intensity you want to achive. The groups I train with use headgear and hockey, or street-hocky gloves and padded sticks (smak stiks). On the whole, our system is blade based, and as such, the hand is a primary target. Wearing hand protection allows us to strike a small, moving target with as much power as we can. It still hurts sometimes. If you want to add some "reality", or in fact merely appreciation of pain, you can use lighter gloves and heavier/harder sticks. There can be some benifit in the fact that if you spar like that, you *will* try and move your hand more.You have to balance this with the potential for disabling injury.

In short, make your training methods fit your style, but be true to your art without endagering yourself, or being unrealistic.

(Rant over

)