cold steel katanas

Posted by: noobsamurai

cold steel katanas - 10/17/05 09:14 PM

ive heard great things of these reasonably priced katanas and am concidering purchasing a "o" katana.for the price of 630, it seems like you cant miss out for a high quality, battle ready functional sword. what do you fellas thing?
Posted by: jc4199

Re: cold steel katanas - 10/18/05 04:37 AM

http://www.dragonsedge.biz/product_info.php?products_id=164

Sounds high I think but I don't know anything about katanas.

1050 steel is a high carbon steel it is highly machineable and it can be hardened. After it has been hardened it is a pain to sharpen. But it will dull slower after its been hardened. It will rust if it is not taken care of right.
I am pulling this info from memory I will have to check it at work when I get to go back.
Posted by: funstick5000

Re: cold steel katanas - 10/18/05 01:08 PM

this is in the wrong forum, it belongs in the sword forum.

from what i gether under $500 is too cheap for a katana and it could be dangerous. you're best joining a kenjutsu (Iaido is probably the most common) before buying a sword so your sensei can give you the advice you need before purchasing a live katana. without training you shouldn't be buying a sword let alone actually swinging it about, you're very likely to kill yourself or a loved one if the blade breaks or even shatters.

-------
no its in the right place, after all a sword is a weapon.

under $500 is a wallhanger or basically a kata sword - ie not for iaido unless your sensei approves it.

And yes proper training is a MUST with any weapon especially a katana. I wouldn't be buying a live blade until you've done a few years of good training.
Posted by: paradoxbox

Re: cold steel katanas - 10/18/05 01:47 PM

>from what i gether under $500 is too cheap for a katana and it could be dangerous.<

That would put the entry level offerings from almost every sword company off the map. Choosing a good sword has not too much to do with the dollar figure and more to do with what you're asking from the sword.

Almost everyone has a Paul Chen practical katana as a 'beater blade'. This is what they use for test cutting and doing things on targets they wouldn't cut with their more precious blades (because of fear of scratching, staining, etc).

There are a large number of decent swords available for 500$ and under, look at Cold Steel, Hanwei, Last Legend, Furuyama, etc. Even a Paul Chen practical plus katana is ok as long as you are going to be responsible with it.

Technically this is one of 2 correct forums the thread is in, afterall a sword is a weapon.
Posted by: funstick5000

Re: cold steel katanas - 10/18/05 04:16 PM

should add that if you re going to buy a live blade go to www.bugei.com or www.swordstore.com as these test the swords for quality before selling them.
Posted by: laf7773

Re: cold steel katanas - 10/19/05 01:36 AM

Quote:

Almost everyone has a Paul Chen practical katana as a 'beater blade'.



NO serious iaido practitioner i have met uses a Paul Chen. Most instructors don't even allow them in their dojo. The closest you are going to come to a quality sword from Paul Chen is the Bugei line. I've heard Paul Chen has a decent sword under their company name but for it's price you can get a better Bugei iaito or a good quality iaito from swordstore.com.

Quote:

There are a large number of decent swords available for 500$ and under, look at Cold Steel, Hanwei, Last Legend, Furuyama, etc. Even a Paul Chen practical plus katana is ok as long as you are going to be responsible with it.



I don't have any experience with Furuyama but the rest you mentioned are the bottom of the barrel when it comes to katana. The main reasons being poor balance, poor fittings and poor quality in construction.

Here is how it works people. When starting out in ANY sword art you do NOT start with a "live" blade. You don't even start off purchasing a sword of any kind without first consulting your instructor in regards to what they require for new students in their school. At most you should only purchase a bokken, your instructor will advise you on the specifications for a sword in their school (i.e.: length of blade, length of handle) and give you recommendations of an outlet to purchase a quality sword. If your art is iaido you will be required to purchase an iaito and will practice with that for several years until your instructor feels you are ready to move to a "live" blade. This serves a few purposes. The most important being your safety and the safety of your fellow practitioners, you also don't want to begin with a "live" blade as you may drop it, ding it or damage it during your journey. You wouldn't buy a Ferrari to learn how to drive a stick would you? These years of training with an iaito will also give you a lot of time to save money as a "live" blade will cost you about $5,000 and up, you can get a blade alone with no fittings for about $3,000. Most iaito are a zinc/alluminum alloy but there are a few out making steel iaito. The alloy iaito are for kata only. Some steel iaito are designed for cutting such as the ones offered by bugei.com and swordstore.com. These i have seen allowed in legit dojos for training but only during tameshigeri. Swordstore.com and bugei.com will run $800 and up for an iaito that cuts. I wouldn't do tameshigeri with a Coldsteel or Paul Chen if you paid me. The big concern with doing tameshigeri isn't in doing it with a $7,000 sword; it's with doing it with an antique. Antique katana and a very select few smiths in Japan are considered national treasures. These swords are never to be used for tamishigeri and should be handled with extreme care.

If you are lucky enough to find a legit kenjutsu instructor in your area then you will be using a bokken for quite some time.

Long story short, find a quality instructor and buy what they tell you is best suited for their dojo. Don't go out and buy a Coldsteel katana and start beating up trees with it and calling your self "learning the katana". You will only waste your money and possibly injure or kill your self or someone close.
Posted by: Reiki

Re: cold steel katanas - 10/19/05 02:41 PM

<sigh>
This is really good advice from Lane.

You *must* start with a bokken when learning sword arts.

I'm wondering if any of the new people has bothered to read the sticky post at the top of this forum about finding an instructor first before starting any weapons training.
Posted by: noobsamurai

Re: cold steel katanas - 10/19/05 03:30 PM

laf.....you oppinion is your opinion....but as far as im concerned....many of the brands listed....minus the practical series of paul chen....are good quality swords that can be used in battle and cutting exercises.the cold steel are fairly good deal....around 600 for the o katana warrior....which has a great blade and good quality fittings.it seems theres to many guys on this site who think that money makes the sword....its all about personal opinion.
Posted by: Reiki

Re: cold steel katanas - 10/19/05 04:20 PM

I'd listen to what Lane says.

He has many years of Iaido training and knows what he's talking about.

If he advises steer clear of xyz brand then its probably because he knows someone who had problems with it.

And as with many other things in life, you get what you pay for if you are buying from a reputable dealer.
Posted by: noobsamurai

Re: cold steel katanas - 10/19/05 10:18 PM

laf...i had no idea of your experience.i just assumed you were one of those guys who says negative comments about every question posted....as ive seen in the past.thanks for your help, best regards
Posted by: laf7773

Re: cold steel katanas - 10/20/05 12:45 AM

Don't worry about it. Everyone knows i'm only the moderator of the sword arts section here because i won the position in a lottery.
Posted by: JoelM

Re: cold steel katanas - 10/20/05 01:40 AM

Did you play Cord's measurements, too?

Last time I won the lottery people threw rocks at me.
Posted by: paradoxbox

Re: cold steel katanas - 10/20/05 01:43 AM

It seems like I do a lot of disagreeing with people on this forum, but I guess if I didn't it would be a boring place and no useful information would ever surface from the discussions we usually have.

I was speaking a little while ago to someone who also thought that no iaido places will start a student on a live blade.

I am of the opinion that this is a very western and in specific, American thing.

I have several friends training in Japan who told me they all started with shinken. Keven Cecil of the White Heron MJER dojo also started on a shinken. I also started on a shinken but I also happen to use a bokken most of the time, and I use an iaito as well for partner techniques in particular that require something a little more real than a piece of wood.

I think that in a great deal of Japanese swordsmanship schools, be they iaido, kenjutsu, battojutsu or iajutsu, it usually comes down to what the instructor of the dojo wants and how ready the individual student feels.

Owning a sword without training does not mean you are going to kill yourself just by owning it. Doing stupid things with a sword with or without training will get you hurt. In the beginning training should always be done very slowly until the movement is perfected. Then speeeded up slightly and reperfected at the new speed, and so on until you have mastered the technique.

There are a few techniques out there that are dangerous to learn on a shinken with, such as chiburi, but even that can be done slowly. The concequences of doing it too fast were seen on the swordforums where a guy with no training tried chiburi and the sword wound up slicing through his arm.

Anyway, as for people owning Paul Chens PPK, I really have to disagree with ya here Lane.. Almost every iaido practicioner I know has one and uses it as their 'beater' cutting blade. That means it is used exclusively for cutting targets they would never touch with their good blades. PPK's are great for trying cuts you're not really sure you can make (Like katana vs cutting stand dowel, or non hollow/thick bamboo).

Bringing them into the dojo for use in iaido or any other art is a different story. They are not really balanced enough and the fittings are garbage to be used in that way. But they cut decently enough.

There are many many many dojo out there where both students and instructors use blades that cost less than 1000$. Not all of us have the kind of money to spend on a Howard Clark or nihonto. You should of course consult your teacher for finding a blade for dojo practice. But not everyone wants to own a live blade for dojo use, some people just like having sharp objects, and some people just like to cut tatami by themselves.

If you have no training, cutting milk jugs and soft fruits are as much as I would recommend doing, if you absolutely must have a sword. There is pretty minimal risk to this as long as you have proper knowledge on how to hold the sword and how to make basic cuts. It's pretty simple. But don't try anything creative or difficult, like noto or chiburi. That's all.

Get a blade with bohi so you know if your cuts are correct or not before you try cutting, otherwise you will kill your blade, I promise you on that one.
Posted by: laf7773

Re: cold steel katanas - 10/20/05 04:37 AM

Quote:

It seems like I do a lot of disagreeing with people on this forum, but I guess if I didn't it would be a boring place and no useful information would ever surface from the discussions we usually have.




The fact that many of the members of this forum have MANY years of experience in various arts might tell you something about this statement.

Quote:

I was speaking a little while ago to someone who also thought that no iaido places will start a student on a live blade.

I am of the opinion that this is a very western and in specific, American thing.

I have several friends training in Japan who told me they all started with shinken. Keven Cecil of the White Heron MJER dojo also started on a shinken. I also started on a shinken but I also happen to use a bokken most of the time, and I use an iaito as well for partner techniques in particular that require something a little more real than a piece of wood.



Funny thing is the majority of the people I know studying in Japan started out with bokken or iaito and stayed with that for quite some time. As with many of the legit schools i've run across here in the states and in various other countries. It's a safety issue above all else. No good instructor is going to allow someone who has just begun training in iaido or any other JSA to train with a live blade among other students. The liability is too high. Same goes for the use of low quality swords such as the PPK, if it breaks during class and injures another student the legal problems alone could ruin them, not to mention the guilt from allowing such a thing to happen.

Quote:

I think that in a great deal of Japanese swordsmanship schools, be they iaido, kenjutsu, battojutsu or iajutsu, it usually comes down to what the instructor of the dojo wants and how ready the individual student feels.



I agree with you here but there is a much greater time lapse involved, generally between 6-12 years depending on the progress of the practitioner.

Quote:

Owning a sword without training does not mean you are going to kill yourself just by owning it. Doing stupid things with a sword with or without training will get you hurt. In the beginning training should always be done very slowly until the movement is perfected. Then speeeded up slightly and reperfected at the new speed, and so on until you have mastered the technique.



I highly doubt we are having this discussion because noobsamurai is looking for wall decoration. While i don't feel self teaching is a proper way of learning any art i am dead set against someone with no training in JSAs swinging a live blade at anything including air, especially if it's a low quality sword like the PPK. The simple fact is a large majority of the Paul Chen line and the Coldsteel stuff puts you at a much higher risk of injury due to there poor quality.

Quote:

There are a few techniques out there that are dangerous to learn on a shinken with, such as chiburi, but even that can be done slowly. The concequences of doing it too fast were seen on the swordforums where a guy with no training tried chiburi and the sword wound up slicing through his arm.




Exactly why training should begin with iaido or bokken. You just proved my point for me, again.

Quote:

Anyway, as for people owning Paul Chens PPK, I really have to disagree with ya here Lane.. Almost every iaido practicioner I know has one and uses it as their 'beater' cutting blade. That means it is used exclusively for cutting targets they would never touch with their good blades. PPK's are great for trying cuts you're not really sure you can make (Like katana vs cutting stand dowel, or non hollow/thick bamboo).




Exactly what purpose would cutting such surfaces prove? It doesn't promote proper cutting technique. The fact that " Almost every iaido practitioner I know has one and uses it as their 'beater' cutting blade" tells me they more than likely aren't receiving proper training or they are just looking to cut things up. The fact that they are using cheaper and much lower quality swords to cut MORE difficult materials tells me they aren't thinking things through very well. Lets say for example a bulletproof vest is designed to stop a standard .22 round but you want to try and stop a .50 cal round. Here's the kicker though instead of using your regular vest you decide to remove the plating from the vest. It still has the Kevlar lining but what do you think your chances are now? Not exactly the same thing but the same concept.

Quote:

Bringing them into the dojo for use in iaido or any other art is a different story. They are not really balanced enough and the fittings are garbage to be used in that way. But they cut decently enough.



Lets see, they aren't balanced and the fittings are garbage but they still cut decently? A bit of a contradiction here don't you think?

Quote:

There are many many many dojo out there where both students and instructors use blades that cost less than 1000$. Not all of us have the kind of money to spend on a Howard Clark or nihonto. You should of course consult your teacher for finding a blade for dojo practice.



Yes there are. They are called iaito. Those not able to purchase a more expensive blade can opt for a bugei or blade from swordstore.com, they are around the $1000 and under range (in some cases).

Quote:

But not everyone wants to own a live blade for dojo use, some people just like having sharp objects, and some people just like to cut tatami by themselves.




These are also the people you may someday be calling lefty. Cutting tatami with little or no training is a pretty unintelligent thing to do. Especially if you are using one of those "unbalanced blades with garbage fittings" as i stated before.

Quote:

If you have no training, cutting milk jugs and soft fruits are as much as I would recommend doing, if you absolutely must have a sword. There is pretty minimal risk to this as long as you have proper knowledge on how to hold the sword and how to make basic cuts. It's pretty simple. But don't try anything creative or difficult, like noto or chiburi. That's all.




If you absolutely MUST have a sword but are not interested in seeking qualified training then you should be nothing more than a collector. Cutting mild jugs and fruit serve no purpose other than the possible "joy" of cutting something. You will learn little or nothing from it.
Posted by: paradoxbox

Re: cold steel katanas - 10/20/05 11:01 AM

I won't argue about this anymore, but statistics speak greater than opinions, take a look at swordforum and count how many iaidoka own a PPK or LL sword worth less than 500$ as a beater sword.

It only makes sense to use a cheaper sword for regular and tough cutting duties. As for people who like to cut difficult targets, well that's up to the individual. Some people actually try to get a little realism into their cutting practice & seek out more difficult targets, like going to a bamboo grove. I know I wouldn't risk a nihonto on bamboo cutting. I have an LL blade that I'll try it with though.

Personal preference.
Posted by: UofM Shorin Ryu

Re: cold steel katanas - 10/27/05 02:35 PM

Quote:

I won't argue about this anymore, but statistics speak greater than opinions, take a look at swordforum and count how many iaidoka own a PPK or LL sword worth less than 500$ as a beater sword.





http://m2.aol.com/johng101/lying.htm

http://print.google.com/print?hl=en&...h87WWkmfsUXs0Us
Posted by: paradoxbox

Re: cold steel katanas - 10/27/05 03:51 PM

http://forums.swordforum.com/search.php?...rder=descending

Generate your own statistics.
Posted by: UofM Shorin Ryu

Re: cold steel katanas - 10/27/05 05:24 PM

Ok. Did many searches with the words Practical Plus katana, Last Legends, cutting, effective, beater, tamishigeri. Tried just about every combo.

My conclusions:

I found 8 people who say they use their PPK or LL for cutting, the almost unanimous reason being because it's a cheap piece compared to their other weapons.

Our forum has a total of 10,989 Registered users, with a total of 190,817 posts.

Sowrdforum has 606,730 posts and no total of users that I saw.

Their forum is 3x larger than ours, so taking our # x 3 roughly = Swordforum members (32,967).

The percentage of people on Swordforum who own a PPK or LL for any type of cutting is .00024%.

That was fun!
Your turn!
Posted by: haidonggumdo

Re: cold steel katanas - 11/09/05 07:48 PM

laugh is right, i am in haidong gumdo(korean sword art of the eastern sea), and we have to become blackbelts-thats three years- before we can use a real sword.....would you trust your friends with a sword before they were a black belt? i mean one mistake could be your last with a real sword, consider that please!
Posted by: Sensei Paul Hart

Re: cold steel katanas - 12/03/05 03:44 AM

I am wondering if any one knows the story of Musashi and the Ganryu Island battle. He carved a wooden boken out of a boat oar and used it in battle. While I will agree with you that a boken is the way to start, I must disagree with your assessment of some of Paul Chen's blades. For the cost they are decent quality when you get out of the practical line. I use a Samurai for daily training and it has never let me down. I own more than a few Katana (and about every other type of weapon you can legally buy) and I think that if you like what you get and your Sensei approves then have fun. Some people just like to cut stuff, we are never going to change that. My favorite in my collection is a "Dotanuki Munehiro" piece that I would not cut with if you threatened my life. I own a "Osumi Toshihira" that I wouldn't cut with as well. What I am trying to say is I have Cold Steel, Paul Chen and Bugei swords that are of little value to me that I would use for practice. Why would I use a sword that cost 25 grand? or even 7 grand? I am just a student when it comes to JSA but I think it's good for the person to get what he likes and learn from there. This is the process.

P.S. Some of the high dollar swords are not worth the price and cut worse than some of the cheaper swords, IMHO.