Fencing and Kendo

Posted by: tao_majick

Fencing and Kendo - 05/21/05 12:46 AM

hey guys, I'm just doin' a survey. I was woundering what school of swordsmanship would you rather practice? European Fencing or Kendo? Both arts have their strong points, but just for the record, I perfer Kendo!
Posted by: Strider_Hanzo

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 05/21/05 01:24 AM

Regarding which style of Fencing? There is Saber Epee and Foil. Each with very distinct and different styles.
Posted by: tao_majick

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 05/21/05 12:00 PM

Either which of them.
Posted by: Strider_Hanzo

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 05/21/05 03:00 PM

Honestly i'd rather do both...
Posted by: imcrazy

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 05/21/05 03:33 PM

Well there is a sword arts forum. So this will probably be moved there pretty soon...

I don't really care for fencing (of any kind, Japanese or European) so I wouldn't do either.
Posted by: Reiki

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 05/21/05 04:56 PM

I don't do fencing, however with our jousting we also do European style broadsword fighting, so we get to hack up cabbages and pumpkins as well as have the odd melee style battle from horseback.

I'd go for broadsword over kendo because I love making coleslaw!

We also do a fair bit of bokken vs bokken and bokken vs jo in our MA training which I really enjoy.
Posted by: DefenselessChild

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 05/22/05 07:25 PM

I can't stand foil fencing so I'll say kendo. Never tried saber.
Posted by: Strider_Hanzo

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 05/22/05 08:43 PM

what's wrong with foil? and if you haven't tried saber you're missing out...
Posted by: DefenselessChild

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 05/22/05 11:37 PM

I'm just used to cutting, so I bet I would like saber a lot more.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 05/24/05 01:17 AM

As a matter of fact, I used to fence - Epee'. I only took 3 kendo lessons but hurt my R knee from too many fencing lunges. Kendo would be better. Also in a realsword fight between katana & rapier, the rapier is faster but the Daito is more deadly. Choose kendo for the same reason.
Posted by: Subedei

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 06/03/05 12:13 PM

What's wrong with foil? Oh..I don't know...It's completely incapable of causing injury? It's physical properties distort the physical reality of real swordfighting?
Posted by: cxt

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 06/03/05 02:41 PM

I'd have to "second" that.

I fence saber and the "old school" moulinets, a cut needed for effective use of a real saber in real combat, have pretty much disappered.
They are not needed for Olympic style competition.

The fingers and to a lesser extent the wrist do much of the work now.
And they allow bladework that would be nearly impossible with anything other than a "competition blade."
Posted by: Strider_Hanzo

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 06/03/05 06:21 PM

It's easily understood that fencing is not real because of the ball points and the flexibility of steel, why would you want to learn to "really" sword fight? It's of no real use to you anyway. Would you carry a sword around? This brings up a good point about why people do Fencing or Kendo. I do it for fun because it's of no practical use in a real fighting situation, there are those that do it for the philosophy. Even if it Kendo was more "real" how real is it to hit each other with wooden weapons?? As for injury i've heard cases where a fencer accidently lunged to hard and aimed at the headgear and the point went through and killed his opponent by going through the eye. That seems pretty real doesn't it? Same with Kendo there have been stories of people practicing "real swordfighting" without their gear on and manage to kill each other with a solid hit from a bokken. psh........ Fencing and Kendo are equally as real as each other.
Posted by: DefenselessChild

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 06/03/05 09:42 PM

Foil Fencing and Kendo are still not equal to each other in terms of reality. Arm equally skilled practicioners of Kendo and Foil Fencing with weapons sharp weapons reflecting their arts and set em against each other in a "real" fight. The thin foil weapon isn't going to save the fencing guy.
Posted by: Strider_Hanzo

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 06/04/05 05:32 PM

The proper way to match them up would be saber fencing against Kendo, one using the rapier and the other using the katana but that doesn't matter.... this discussion shouldn't turn into a who would win in a fight against each other. Besides how would you know? have you taken Kendo and Fencing? For how long each? How did you come to that conclusion?
Posted by: DefenselessChild

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 06/04/05 06:45 PM

You're right.
Posted by: Strider_Hanzo

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 06/04/05 08:03 PM

blegh... to lighten the mood i guess i have a question. Compared to fencing which requires sharp reflexes and quick thinking, how much of it can be transferred over to Kendo? Does Kendo follow a philosophy that Fencing doesn't have, in regards to mentality of striking and defending, positioning? I'm taking Aikido and i guess we'll eventually get into swords but in the future i plan to practice some form of Kendo so... any info?

P.S.: YAY!!!! 100TH POST woo! time ot celebrate!
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 06/09/05 09:58 PM

My 2nd post (reposte, get it?) -sp.?

Does anybody know what they're talking about???? First of all, a sabre & rapier are 2 different weapons:

The sabre is a curved, single bladed weapon usually associated w/ the cavalry because of the slicing action utilized in fighting (could you imagine trying to thrust on horse-back?).

A rapier is a strait, double-edged weapon w/ a sharp point used for cutting & thrusting.

The Sabre is usually shorter & heavier than the Rapier.

So the most likely weapon in this fantasy duel would be Katana vs. Sabre. (my vote still goes w/ katana)
Posted by: Warwolph

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 06/13/05 08:39 PM

been doing Fencing since I was 7, and turning 18 soon, so almost 11 years.. anyways, not the point. We're looking at fencing vs. Kendo- I have a very close friend who's been doing Kendo as long as I've been fencing, and we both agree that there's no practical use for either sport. I've done all three fencing styles- foil epee and saber, and it really depends on what you're trying to do with your sword- when it comes to reality, epee is the best because the soul aim of it is to hit first, rather than parry and attack which you find in the others. However, sabre is slicing and more "brutish" in certain ways. For the most speed go for epee, for the most technique go for foil, and for the most annoying (competitively speaking) and most fun (practice speaking) go for saber... it's VERY good to do all 3
Posted by: Strider_Hanzo

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 06/14/05 10:17 AM

I'm going to disagree. Epee fencing can take the longest and the shortest. Haven't you seen some bouts where all they do is just stand facing each other for like 10 minutes straight? Well yeah afterwards they move and score quickly but i tend to like Saber more due to the fact that it's hard to tell where the strike is coming from if you're up against a good opponent. Which makes it a higher priority to always be on the move. I think this type of fencing(saber) is something that can be transferred over to martial arts in regards to always being on the move and being able to read your opponents moves, and strike when least expected.
Posted by: Warwolph

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 06/30/05 10:06 PM

I just go for it in epee, there's nothing worse than standing there all the time and nothing happening. I feel empty at the end of a bout like that, so I just try and force mistakes, might lose a couple of points, but I don't care. At least it feels like i've actually been fighting and not just idly standing there.
Posted by: Armed_Man_Piker

Cuts from the wrist are effective and historical - 07/11/05 01:06 AM

Cxt,

I fence saber and the "old school" moulinets, a cut needed for effective use of a real saber in real combat, have pretty much disappered.
They are not needed for Olympic style competition.

The fingers and to a lesser extent the wrist do much of the work now.
And they allow bladework that would be nearly impossible with anything other than a "competition blade."


I certainly have nothing against moulinets/molinelli from the elbow, but it should still be pointed out that effective cuts can indeed be launched from the wrist. This was the preferred method of cutting in 16th/17th century rapier fencing, and it was even used judiciously in 18th century Anglo-Scottish broadsword & backsword-play. Several period fencing masters mention this.

FWIW.

Peace,

A_M_P
Posted by: Armed_Man_Piker

On sword types - 07/11/05 01:29 AM

Quote:

My 2nd post (reposte, get it?) -sp.?

Does anybody know what they're talking about???? First of all, a sabre & rapier are 2 different weapons:

The sabre is a curved, single bladed weapon usually associated w/ the cavalry because of the slicing action utilized in fighting (could you imagine trying to thrust on horse-back?).




While most historical sabers have some degree of curvature, not all weapons of this type are curved. Aside from the modern sports saber, several latter-day military (cavalry) sabers were straight-bladed, like the Spanish Puerto Seguro of 1907:

http://bermudas.ls.fi.upm.es/~pedro/Image2.jpg

The British 1908 Pattern:

http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/swords/13alhr.jpg

and the M1913 Saber designed by Lt. George S. Patton:

http://i9.ebayimg.com/02/i/04/04/66/5d_1_b.JPG

Note that while these weapons could be used for cutting, they were optimized for thrusting.

Quote:

A rapier is a strait, double-edged weapon w/ a sharp point used for cutting & thrusting.




Agreed.

Quote:

The Sabre is usually shorter & heavier than the Rapier.




Shorter? Yes.

Heavier? No.

Quote:

So the most likely weapon in this fantasy duel would be Katana vs. Sabre. (my vote still goes w/ katana)




Why do you feel that way?

Just Curious,

A_M_P
Posted by: Armed_Man_Piker

On the foil's utility - 07/11/05 01:50 AM

S,

Quote:

What's wrong with foil? Oh..I don't know...It's completely incapable of causing injury? It's physical properties distort the physical reality of real swordfighting?




You're ignoring the obvious fact that the foil itself is a practice weapon, and thus it is not designed to "cause injury" in the first place. That's why the Italians called it the spada d'exercizio.

However, you should also note that the Italian foil is very close in form to the Italian duelling sword, which is indeed needle sharp and thus capable of killing.

Likewise, foil technique in general (Italian or French), can indeed translate well to actual, functional swords--smallswords, spadroons, sabers, etc.

As for your claim that the foil's "physical properties distort the physical reality of real swordfighting", that only applies to the foil's flexibility and the corresponding use of silly, bastardized moves like the modern "flick attack". It certainly doesn't apply to the foil's light weight--and anyone who claims otherwise hasn't actually handled a real smallsword or duelling epee.

Peace,

A_M_P
Posted by: Armed_Man_Piker

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 07/11/05 01:58 AM

Quote:

hey guys, I'm just doin' a survey. I was woundering what school of swordsmanship would you rather practice? European Fencing or Kendo? Both arts have their strong points, but just for the record, I perfer Kendo!




I prefer Western fencing, partially because I have a background in it, and also because I feel that it is arguably less diluted that kendo. I suspect that modern foil & epee fencing is closer to the actual use of the smallsword & duelling epee, than kendo is to functional kenjutsu.
Posted by: PinoyKendoka

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 07/24/05 03:12 PM

I would prefer Kendo

And for some fencers who dont know much about kendo here, kendo is somewhat almost related to kenjutsu. Kendo has more target areas that fencing does which is the wrists, the head, and the sides, and thrusting to the neck. In kendo, the shinai is not the only weapon used, but a weapon called the "Bokken" is used and it is shaped exactly as a katana. You can actually cut a arm or a head off with a booken if you tried really hard. Also, kendo has more dimentions, instead of just fighting in a line you have more space. Kendo was also knows for speed, technique, and skill too, and kendo bogu(armor) was more durable and stronger than fencing armor. Kendo has slashes, blocks, chops, slices, and thrusts to the neck which can be dangerous. The katana i think was used when kendo was first invented many years ago in japan but caused deaths and serious injuries. The katana s made sharp, or sharper than any western sword. I have seen some videos and documentarys of someone shooting a pistol at a katana, and the katana ends up slicing the bullets in half. In kendo, you also have to be really agressive, and you use loud shouts during fights and there is also lots of strength and cunning speed added.
Posted by: Armed_Man_Piker

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 07/28/05 09:46 PM

Quote:

I would prefer Kendo

And for some fencers who dont know much about kendo here, kendo is somewhat almost related to kenjutsu. Kendo has more target areas that fencing does which is the wrists, the head, and the sides, and thrusting to the neck.




And I guess you're a kendoka who doesn't know much about fencing.

You claim that kendo "has more target areas" than fencing, but that clearly isn't the case.

In foil fencing the target is the entire torso, from the crotch to the shoulders.

In saber, the target is everything from the waist up.

In epee, the target is the entire body.

Quote:

In kendo, the shinai is not the only weapon used, but a weapon called the "Bokken" is used and it is shaped exactly as a katana. You can actually cut a arm or a head off with a booken if you tried really hard.




A bokken can cause lethal injuries through "blunt trauma", but it's not going to cut anything...

Quote:

Also, kendo has more dimentions, instead of just fighting in a line you have more space.




"More dimensions"?

Modern Western fencing is predominantly linear due to the emphasis on straight thrusts, as well as the lightness of the weapons themselves.

Quote:

Kendo was also knows for speed, technique, and skill too, and kendo bogu(armor) was more durable and stronger than fencing armor.




Kendo armor is NOT "stronger" than fencing armor; look at the Dog Brothers Real Contact Stickfighting group, and you'll note that they use Western fencing 3-Weapon masks. Why? Because they are rigid. Kendo masks have a strong metal face grill (like WEKAF stickfighting masks), but they have no real protection on the top and sides--it's just heavy cloth. If one was to attempt stickfighting with heavy rattan sticks using kendo masks (a very bad idea), there would be many folks suffering knockouts and other injuries. Western fencing masks have a solid frame. WEKAF masks have high impact foam. Kendo masks have neither of these.

Quote:

The katana s made sharp, or sharper than any western sword.




More BS.

Look up English accounts of the Jacobite Rebellions, and you'll find plenty of instances of basket-hilted broadswords and backswords used to decapitate bodies and sever limbs.

Or look at the examinations of the Grave Pit at the site of the Battle of Visbey--plenty of severed bones and the like.

The Japanese do not have a monopoly on sharp swords.
Posted by: Reiki

Re: Fencing and Kendo - 07/29/05 05:38 PM

keep the discussion under control, please refrain from calling each other names or I will lock or delete this thread

thankyou