Ninja Climbing Claws (?)

I heard that the Ninja used claw-like attachments on the knuckles to scale trees and the like.... What are they called? And where can I get some?

If my memory isn't betraying me, they're called shuko; I'm still far from certain of that, though. As for where to find them, they should be available at your usual ninja hardware store [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG].
Honestly, I have no idea of where - and if - you can get them. I've never heard of anyone manufacturing such things...

They are called shuko and are also referred to as tekagi. They were used for climbing and a weapon. You can find them just about anywhere they sell the cheesy "ninja" weapons but most in mass production are far from quality. There are a few who make "traditional" shuko but they are hard to find unless you train in those circles. I can give you a website that sells "safe" shuko for training.
http://www.budoweapons.com/Online%20Catalog/Kakushi.htm

If you really want a real set i'm sure you can find someone who makes them either on e-budo.com or kutaki.com

The shuko for the feet are called ashiko.

They are not used just for climbing but for catching swords and for giving an extra oomph to throwing techniques or open hand strikes..
http://www.bujinkan-duisburg.de/images/schuhe.jpg

Climbing was one of the uses but by far not it's primary. They were use primarily for open hand techniques but i would shy far away from trying to catch a sword with them. I know there are techniques taught in the bujinkan for just that but i would chalk that up with the techniques i would never use.

Just curious, why wouldn't you use the sword catching techniques?

Hatsumi souke has a couple of pages devoted to them in his book "Secret Techniques", if you're interested at all in looking at them. In one of them he 'caught' a sword with the ashiko on his foot, and kicked it away! Amazing stuff..

After I learned to keep my fingers out of the way I stopped getting whacked with bokken.

But I still sometimes get a crunched finger when working with the bou :P Go figure.

Because after years of iaido and trying some of the catch techniques myself i don't see them as being very practical in a real situation. Not that i will ever be in a situation to need that type of technique. Like a lot of techniques in any style they don't work especially well when you don't know the technique the attacker will be using. They are good for helping you with your timing and distancing among other things, but when it comes to someone swinging a live blade at me with the intent to do more than give me a hair cut i think i will prefer to get out of the way and use the shuko for something more practical. Again, not like many of us will ever be in a fight with someone with a sword.

Hi, I`m Wilf and a Bujinkan practioner.

First of all: Please don`t practice with metall ones.

What I`ve read is - in my opinion- so far right except the uselessness against a sword.

I thought that to, until a couple of years ago, I tested the techniques myself.
I would not use primarily the Ashiko foot claws, because to move free and fast in all possible directions in order to adjust to the sword and opponent wielding it seems to be quite difficult.

With the Shuko or Tekagi (there are several styles, I`m only talking of the Togakurestyle ones like linked to before) it is different.
Normally you don`t stand on your hands, so you can really move the upper body and arms relatively fast - or at least in different directions - and catch a sword if you first of all adjust to the punch or strike.
Then after you`re feeling how the sword (the enemy) moves you have to act accordingly for not being cut after you`ve already "captured" the sword. Don`t forget that you can lock the sword a little by twisting the Shuko, while the blade is in between the claws of it.

Maybe you should not pay to much attention on this topic, because even the teacher (at least here in Germany) don`t work much with the Shuko. The Shuko is not really that spectacular, it`s just like using someone`s hand. With empty hands you would just go a little more towards the enemy and block his arms instead of his blade - this is more difficult and more advanced than using the Shuko.
Greetings from Berlin, Wilf

How exactly did you test the techniques?

I tried practical applications with them too. Instead of using a fellow bujinkan member with a bokken i used an iaido practitioner i work with and an iaito. You can believe what ever you want but the truth of the matter is that sword catching techniques are not practical. There is a big difference in training in a dojo environment with a practitioner delivering attacks you know or expect are coming vise training in a situation where you don't know how they will attack and you know the risk of injury is higher. There is also a big difference in how they attack. Are they going through the motions with moderate force or are they truly attacking you? If you train with the tekagi as realistically as you possible can you will soon realize they are more suited for grab/palm strike type techs than blade catching.

Thanks for your question laf7773,

"catching techniques are not practical. ...they are more suited for grab/palm strike type techs than blade catching."

I didn`t try the techniques on a bokken, because it`s relatively thick, so we used an metalsword too (students please don`t try such things).
The thing is that the tekagi are used in a hidden way if possible and to let the opponent think that he`ll get you with his attack. As late as possible the make our move.
While catching the sword, one can attack with his second hand, forcing the enemy in the right direction (you don`t even have to touch him because he will react naturally)depending on the situation or move in onto his body to not let him draw back the sword for cutting ones hand who holds the blade.
Actually after one evaded the strike, the sword is taken and pulled away at the moment one has "prepared" the opponent to let loose.
One should not fight with the enemy but go together with him.

Exactly my point. If the opponent believes his attack will succeed they will commit more to the attack. With the speed of the cut you are not going to be able to catch the blade. Even if you do make contact with the blade you’re not going to be able to manipulate it in any usable fashion. I'm a bujinkan practitioner too and many of the higher ranking shidoshi I’ve spoken with have commented on the same impracticalities of catching the blade as i have. The chances of you actually catching the blade when someone fully intends to harm you are extremely low. You’re better off trying to move in and manipulate their tsuka.

You would have to be extremely accurate to utilize the small amount of space the shuko protects to catch a blade. Even if you were able to catch the blade with in the 1.5-2 inch space the force of the blow would be too much.

Now if your talking about evading the blade as it comes down and bringing the shuko over the mune of the blade then it's really kind of pointless to use the shuko on the blade itself since you are now on the inside and can put them to much better use. I guarantee you if i or any other iaido/kenjutsu practitioner were to attack you there is no way you would be able to stop the blade with the shuko.

Maybe there is a mix up in the term "catch". What techniques are you talking about exactly?

Again to all students. what I`ve tried, I`ve tried after many years in the martisl arts.
You should never (!!!) try this at home or with friends at your Dojo, if they aren`t highlevel ranking Budoka.
Even then, you should never use the metall Tekagi or sharp swords.


(Especially to laf7773)
(Reply on "I guarantee you if i or any other iaido/kenjutsu practitioner were to attack you there is no way you would be able to stop the blade with the shuko.")
I`m still just an advanced beginner in the martial arts, but now I sometimes perform things relatively easy of which until just a few years ago I thought that I would never be able to perform them.
A lot of great martial artists in the world are doing things we found unbelievable.
If we can´t do a certain thing does that automatically mean that nobody else can do it or is it just our ego calling from inside? As long as a an certain action has not taken place, all thoughts on it are pure theory.

I would never say that I could win with (just as an example) Tekagi against any Budoka who attacks me with a sword even if I had won 500 such matches. I don`t know who would be the Nr.501 and the circumstances we would meet at.
I would say that I can`t imagine this Nr.501 to defeat me but that there`s of coure ever the possibility that such a case -even if unexpected- could happen.

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It was about eight years ago that I tested Tekagi techniques and therefore -to be still sure that the "Shuko-thing" works- I had to test it again in training yesterday...

I have to say something about the Shidoshi.
I met one or two in my fifteen years in the martial arts :-) and the ones of the few I knew and know which are (totally) against such thoughts often did try it once or twice (or never) but not really serious because even before they tested them they thought already the tekagi to be useless for such cases.
Therefore they didn`t really train hard enough to find out where the keypoints are, they just got the weakpoints. After a very limited amount of time that they spent on performing tekagi - if they did at all- they already stopped.

What about the sound of a blade cutting through the air when moved correctly?
Many beginners have problems to create such a sound and later they often have to concentrate before cutting on how to perform a right cut. Advanced practioners just cut.
Unluckily even advanced people are taking things aside to soon, when they don`t get good results in very short time.

With the speed of the opponent`s cut there`s still a chance that you are going to catch the blade if your whole body is behind your hand and the hand bended (okay, very difficult in fast speed) in the right angle. If you did make contact with the blade you can manipulate it because its speed is taken away for a little moment.

I have to say that I talked yesterday with a Shidoshi about the thing after Ì`ve tried the techniques and we came to the conclusion, that it`s possible, but limited to what follows directly after one has "caught" the blade (not on the Mune, the sharp side).
Sometimes I would`ve been cut by trying to catch the blade (different directions, as Uke wanted) but whenever that happened, I felt immediately that me myself had done something wrong, not the (prototype, realistically looking) tekagi.

1.Cuts from the side (for not being cut myself even if I punch his face, too), were best evaded by jumping as near as possible to him and to block with Tekagi on his hand if possible or at least as nearest as possible to the Tsuka (sword grip), while still moving in further and further to take control of Uke`s body. Punshing to his head with second Shuko was only possible if I reacted very very soon.
Most often I was to slow, and even If I would have tried to punch, he would still have cut me because at that time his cut was nearly at its end. At that time he probably couldn`t have moved back his head to avoid my counterattack even if he wanted, but would have reached me with the blade same time.
Therefore I had to keep my second hand near to my body to come as close to him as possible, the punching simply didn`t work well against cuts from the side.

2.Cuts from above worked (second step, when the strike was evaded and another action of Uke starts), worked best by using my body against him or stepping somehow at the side of his frontleg`s knee to move him away, otherwise the sword is still very strong even if a little controlled by the Tekagi.

To 1. and 2.: From the ending positions of the techniques, a lot of further Henka (Variations) are possible.

After all I have to admit that I still can defend my point of view but I have to admit that a lot of experience and training is needed to perform the techniques and that one should maybe create a kind of just a few "Basic first Movements".
What do I mean by that?...

A few years ago I gave a lesson (swordblock vs swordattack from right above to left down) in a friend`s Dojo. One student always said something like: "But what happens if he attacks more from the side, above, to upwards..." and so on. I wanted to treat that person politely so I gave a few examples and after all I made a single block that suited for all these attacks, at least if they didn`t come from left.
It was a first move, who gave the possibility to react on "tricks" of Uke, to adapt to him, if he didn`t attack as he was told.
There`s never guarantee to suceed but as I see it, it`s alway the first move who decides if you can do a second.

[This message has been edited by Wilf (edited 03-02-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Wilf (edited 03-02-2005).]

I don't want to sound argumentative with you here laf, but I know many, many people at honbu dojo right now that would disagree with you on shuko techniques being impractical..

Not all shuko techniques are impractical. Think about it objectively. If an individual who intends to kill you is attacking you with a sword and you don't know what type of cut he will perform do you really want to risk trying to capture the blade? Don't you think the risk outweighs the benefit here? Just so we are on the same page here. I'm talking about stopping a blade mid swing from any angle using the shuko.

As for those at hombu who are practicing these techniques. Not everyone is willing to tell people they have techniques that don't work. The fact is there are several techniques in many systems that are impractical but are still taught in the spirit of tradition. Many high ranking instructors will defends the usefulness of these techniques to the end but it doesn't mean they will actually work. These techniques work fine under controlled situations but when it comes down to needing them to defend your self against a skilled opponent they will fail more often than not. I'd bet if you asked these same instructors who advocate the use of these techniques if they would use the shuko techniques for catching a blade they would tell you no. While they will tell you they work they would opt for a more practical technique.

When someone is swinging a katana at you the last place you want to be is in range of the last 2/3s of the blade. Your best bet is to move in closer or out of range. Trying to catch and lock the blade isn't going to work. Even if you were able to catch the blade it would be withdrawn before you could lock it.

...do you really want to risk trying to capture the blade?...Your best bet is to move in closer or out of range....I'd bet if you asked these same instructors who advocate the use of these techniques if they would use the shuko techniques for catching a blade they would tell you no.

It`s maybe a question of should I just risk it or die.
If the opponent is an advanced, it`s maybe impossible to move easily out and very close in, too (that`s what I`ve spoken about, otherwise who would use short weapons against longer ones?).
Therefore the only chance not to get cut, is (at least as far as I experienced it) to catch the blade or to get cut immediately. I have to say that I don`t see catch in a totally fixed way, therefore I should maybe use the term to avoid by blocking.

...Even if you were able to catch the blade it would be withdrawn before you could lock it...
When contact with the blade is felt, one can immediately make it harder for the opponent to cut or withdraw the sword by just turning the hand a little bit round (from crossposition of blade & Tekakgi = more or less 90°-angle, to a smaller angle). The opponent maybe withdraws, but slower as he tries to do, that gets me the time needed to act on his behaviour as needed in the situation.
As is absolutely clear, I would not keep standing there, I would do as we are always told in the Bujinkan = keep going, stay in the flow. When the opponent tries to cut, I let him cut if I can`t put to much control on his blade (as i said before always with the opponent, not against)
At the same time I`m moving with him and he`ll just cut through air while I`m taking more and more control of his body.
I do this very gently for that he doesn`t feel great resistance or that he builds his own trap concentrating to much on the sword than what happens in the whole space.

It may sounds strange, but old masters or very advanced teachers who say that we should never stick to much on our weapon because we could be easily trapped by it are absolutely right. In every minute, under any circumstances we should feel that we don`t really need the weapon.

I never said that I would prefer Tekagi as weapon against swords, that would be a pistol or at least a weapon that`s longer than a sword like a Yari (jap. spear) for example.

If I can run away, I will do, if I can`t, then I would use whatever I have with me.

I know this sounds cheesy, but there is a weapon I've seen in movies/video games all over the place which makes me think there must be some historical counterpart to it.

It could be called a hand claw, the only other possiblity is that in other research on this people have suggested that it might be called a comb or steel comb?

Weapon consist of 3 or 4 claws about 12" long, extending from a metal plate attached to the back of the hand. (Cheesy yes but think of Wolverine-no they are not supposed to retract or anything)

Any one have info or suggestions on where to continue my search?

As you said you`ve seen the tools in games and your thinking of Wolverine, they will probably have been very similar to these ones, worn by Sho Kosugi - an in the western world very famous ninja actor of the eighties
As you can see the claws are on the back of the hand http://www.geocities.com/SNYCentral/NSK_Gali1.html
or http://www.geocities.com/ShoKosugiTheNinja/InsideKungFuMagazine_Oct1986_Cover.html

More common in the present are the following ones. It is said that these ones have been used by the Togakure-Ryu (the area Togakure is now known as Togakushi).
Here, the claws have been worn on the palm of the hand. http://acl.okstate.edu/users/erikm/ninja/shuko.html

Heres my favortie weapon supply shop online:

swordsonline.com

I agree with most of what has been said above, I Live in the UK and have been a member of the Honbu and Bujinkan for many years now, I hold a Dan grade and my Shidoshi who I was lucky enough to train with on a one to one basis, trained alot with Shuko, they are good for fighting a blade, it just depends how its done, 1st I would be inside the reach of the blade pretty damn quick to be out of the danger path of the blade, and the good way to use Shuko as i trained many times with live blades, is to use the Shuko on the hands holding the Katana as it comes down in its cut. I found this to work very well every time. My Shidoshi trained out in Japan as a guest of Grandmaster Hatsummi, and has many years of training with him, I have also met Grandmaster Hatsummi when I went for my 5th dan, which as you will know if you are a true ninja, that only he can grade you for. I hope that the SHuko situation has fallen a little more into place for you guys, and anything else you are stuck on, feel free to post and I will try to assist from what knowledge I have,

[This message has been edited by Shidoshi-uk (edited 04-09-2005).]

Hatsumi is now actually allowing a select few of his higher ranked shidoshi perform the sakki test, but only in his presence.

[This message has been edited by laf7773 (edited 04-10-2005).]

You are very correct, thankyou for putting me right, I belive he is in the process of choosing several masters to take over from him when he moves on, It will be interesting to see who he choses. as I know that he will not be having just one grandmaster, but several Masters. It is a shame he wont be travelling anymore, I as im sure everyone else who met him can agree, He filled the room with such power and prescence...

[This message has been edited by Shidoshi-uk (edited 04-13-2005).]