Where to buy practical Ninjitsu weapons?

I have recently started studying Bujinkan Ninjitsu. I have done Iaito for some time so have a Katana already. Staves are easy to source. I would like help sourcing Kyogetsu Shoge, Kusari Gama, kunai, and Tessen. Also if anyone knows of reasonably priced practical Ninja-to, I would be extremely grateful. I am in the UK. Domo.

http://www.timbathurst.net/tombo.html

There are a few other places but i can't think of any off the top of my head. Ask your instructor who Tim Bathurst is, i'm sure he's heard of him. I'll try and find some other sites for you tonight after i get off patrol.

Thankyou for your help [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] I only started two weeks ago, so i am ages off being taught how to use the things, but i like to be prepared. Think I remember you posting that you practice bujinkan? I'm in Cambridge, if you ever see a large bald guy at a seminar, with too many tattoos and too little flexibility say high- it will be me [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] Thanks again.

Hello, I just joined the board tonight.
But, I am looking foward to exchanging info regarding weapons.
I have been looking for a high quality ninja-to that is hand forged, and has at least 800- 1000 folds. Yes, I know that will cost a pretty penny... And I am aware that this may not be obtainable through any retailer. This could very well require contact with a traditional blacksmith who is willing to make it by request. Yeah, you're saying "good luck." But it's worth a try. Bottom line is, i'm just tired of the junk out there. I own a Paul-Chen "practical ninja..." and I won't go any further on that one. LOL
Anyone have any leads?


[This message has been edited by ugokikage (edited 02-13-2005).]

Ugokikage,

What "style" of ninjutsu do you study?

I'm very glad you asked. First of all, let me meantion that I am at an early stage of my studies. I do not train under any particular "dojo" or "style" as of now.
My teacher took me in as a apprentice because he liked my reasons for wanting to train in the martial arts. And that is simply to train my mind, body, and spirit.
And so he accepted me as an apprentice.
He told me to immeadiately start studying three main books: The Art of War, The Hagakure, and The Tao te Ching.
I continue to read all three to this very day.
After getting my feet wet in studying, I finally got to train with him. He started me out in the basics, of hand-to-hand, swordsmanship, and stealth
I began to pick up the swordsmanship very quickly. So he decided to train me one full year in the swordsmanship first, and then one full year in hand-to-hand.
The full year of swordsmanship, involved the basics of the Chinese sword forms, The Japanese swords forms, and the European sword forms. His reason for adding the European to the mix... well his philosophy is, if you truly want to learn the way of the sword, learn the styles of these main regions in the world. Which does makes sense.
"To know theyself, is to know others..."
As for the hand-to-hand, he pretty much sticks to the japanese and chinese styles. Which include Tai Chi, Gong-Fu, and yes one style of ninjitsu known as Hitaniga Ryu. Which was taught to him as a small child by his father's side of the family.
He has also studied Konigun Ryu.
However, he has not trained me in that style.
So for the past year and a half i've been reading, training, and meditating.
Gotta love traditional training eh?
Ok, well that's my "biography" regarding my inolvement in the martial arts.

Ugokikage,

I hate to be the one to tell you this but that's not traditional training. Konigun ryu isn't a legitimate style. You may want to take a look at this thread on e-budo. During the time the "head" of this system claimed he was off training in konigun he was actually being brought up on counterfeit charges and pleading guilty to burglary.
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18519&highlight=konigun

As for Hitaniga ryu, i nor any of the practitioners i know have ever heard of it. At least 6 of them living and training in Japan now. I think you are being taken.

The reason i asked is because there is no historical evidence that the straight blade "ninja-to" was ever used in ninjutsu. What was used was more of a wakizashi blade with a katana tsuka and saya.

You may want to check some outside sources, maybe run your instructors name across a few well-known ninjutsu forums. You can try e-budo, genbukan has a forum and you can also try kutaki.org.

I’m not saying your instructor isn’t teaching you anything of value or that he’s a fraud. I just don’t like to see people being taken advantage of, he may not even know the full extent of it.

laf7773,

I appreciate your concern for all students who train in any martial arts. But I need to clarify something with you first. When you asked me, "what "style" of ninjitsu do you study?" I gave you an answer telling you what I have trained in. And I said NO particular "dojo" or "ryu." AS OF NOW. Meaning, I was mindful enough to not say "The style of ninjitsu I study is..." Even though I did meantion stealth, those were simply basics.
Also, I said that my teacher trained me in swordsmanship for a full year FIRST. It has been exactly a year and 8 months since
I've started.
So the little stealth and hand-to-hand I have been introduced to so far is just simply that. An introduction. A year of swordsmanship, a little of hand-to-hand, and a little of stealth is NOT ninjitsu.
I am intelligent enough to know better than to call it that. What I will say is II study swordsmanship.
Now, my reasons for asking about a quality ninja-to, aren't all that special. I just simply like it. I like the weight of it, I like it's length. I have started a preference for that weapon, and I want a nice one. That may change in the future, it may not. I figure checking on this forum would be a start to find one.
Now about the Konigun Ryu. I checked your link. And I found few comments worth taking into consideration. For most of it I saw were nothing more than just bashing, and arrogant statements. Which is common on alot forums. For instance, someone was riddiculing the Koniguns on their choice of apparell ".... Japanese MA stylists wearing Chinese clothes and what looks like a fairly poor Chi-gung exercise......Aaaaaaahhhhh well...."
So what if they use sashes... I think it's fairly neat of them to do so. After all Japan's perfection of ninjistu was derived from the Chinese methods of it. Everything has a beginning right? So perhaps their reason for wearing it, is purely symbolistic in recognizing it's origin. That doesn't seem so silly to me.
And the Bryce Dallas pleading guilty to conterfeit charges. I read that little report that elder999 posted. After reading it, it concluded that Bryce plead guilty to something else. But conterfeiting was not the charge. I will look into it further and see what info I can gather from an actual member of konigun, whom I do know other than my teacher, And then I'll check some sources outside of the group. And then make an itelligent conclusion on what really happened.
Now about you never hearing of Hitaniga Ryu. Well that's ok if you never heard of it. I could be mispelling it. Maybe it's Hitoniga. Keep an open mind though. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
And finally, don't you worry about me being taken. Because for starters, I am not paying a dime to him for what I am learning. Running him across "forums" is not gonna do any good.I already know that people will not know who he is. And I'm fine with that. Infact, I don't know who you are...how do I know that you know the full extent of it? I think you're assuming alot of what little you know about me.
I feel confident in what I have been shown so far, because my spirit is much more at ease than before I began training with him. And I managed to do so by finally learning to nurture myself in those three main areas of the human existance. Mind, Body ,and Spirit.

I'm not making any assumptions on you or your instructor. It is however a fact that konigun ryu is not a legitimate form of ninjutsu. I understand you reservations about listening to some of the people in that thread because they were just being silly and nit picking at little things. The posts that should be taken notice of are from Greg Caplinger, Don Rolley and John Lindsey. Don Roley lives and trains in Japan and has a lot of contacts who could find out if the konigun was legit, he hasn't found anything to support their claims yet. I've asked a few of my friends there about it in the past and none of them cold find anything either. I find it hard to believe that a system could be present all these years and have no documentation in Japan to even show it's existence at any point in time. Then some how be passed to an American who will give no traceable information on exactly what his lineage is.

I've also asked a couple people who have more resources than i about Hitoniga and neither of them could come up with anything in either spelling. The point is if it was a legitimate forum of ninjutsu someone in Japan would have heard about it or at least be able to find it in some resources there.

I understand you say you're not training in ninjutsu, but if your instructor is claiming training in these systems there is an issue. Either he knows they aren't legit and is deceiving you or he doesn't know and has been taken for a ride himself. Being taken in by these kinds of frauds doesn't mean someone is stupid. Anyone could have been taken in by some of these people at some point in their training. A lot of these guys put up a good front. Frank Dux fooled a lot of intelligent people, and still is. It also doesn't mean what is being taught is useless. In some cases there are people who have had good, legitimate training but chose to pretend to be teaching something different for various reasons. Some times it's to make them feel special sometimes it's to cash in on the latest trend.

As it stands there are only a few "legitimate" forms of ninjutsu, and even their lineage is up for speculation. Togakure-ryu Ninpo Happo Biken may be the most popular or common and is said to have originated in the 1100's. While it is recognized as a legitimate system in Japan it's origins and lineage have yet to be proven. You do however find reference to these forms of ninjutsu in older writings.

But since you said you only did sword training for a year, what Japanese sword system or systems were involved?

Unfortunately finding a "quality" ninja-to will be a difficult task. That is depending on your level of quality. Your probably not going to find one made in the same manner as a traditional katana because most smiths who do this type of work only made traditional swords. Since the ninja-to isn't found in Japanese history the chances are slim. You can find some higher end ninja-to but i wouldn't call them quality. More the bottom end of the acceptable.

As for Mr. Dallas. The counterfeit charge and the burglary charges were years apart. He plead guilty to one of six charges against him in '92. The other five charges were dismissed when he entered his guilty plea. The counterfeit charges were from '87. Not exactly a trust worthy guy.

Again i suggest you do some research outside the organization with neutral parties.

Thanks for answering my question earlier regarding the ninja-to. However, I am curious. Why couldn't you have given me that answer in the first place? Instead of being so adamant in being "concerned" aboutthe training I'm undergoing and whether the koniguns are legit or not, and going even further to make speak negatively about my teacher whom you don't even know?
Anyway, I will answer your question regarding my training in Japanese swordsmanship. Again I will say NO particular style in depth, JUST BASICS. And these baiscs are:
Kendo basics, Katana basics: hard medium, and fast strikes. gaurding, and evading.
Katana with Wakazashi basics. and yes your favorite, basics of the ninja-to. Regardless of wether it's documented as being used in ninjitsu or not. It utilizes the same principles of hard, medium, and fast strikes as the katana. It's just held differently. What I have trained regarding the Japanese basics, does not sound like much by iteself. But remember while I was learning that, I was also learning chinese sword styles, and European.
Learning all of those helped me realize the similarities and how the basics of each are key in establishing a good foundation in swordsmanship. This is a good way to get rooted before I move on to more advanced froms.
I am very interested to know what you have studied as a martial artist. Since you took it upon yourself to go into the history or lack thereof about the ninja-to not being used in ninjitsu. I would like to know what exactly is the origin of the ninja-to? Is it a mere American invention to satisfy American's preconecptions about the Japanese style of ninjitsu? Do you personally find the weapon simply inept?

The Bryce Dallas issue. Like I said before I will inquire further and look at BOTH INSIDE and OUTSIDE sources on what happened. And then make a conclusion. There are two sides to every story, and I find by listening to both, I can truly come to a conclusion. And if find that your clarification regarding the charges in both '87 and '92 are true. Cause you know I will check if they are, Then I'll make my own judgement about the guy.
That is a reply to your "neutral parties" comment.

Your comment about, my teacher claiming systems that aren't even legit. I was careful to tell you that he was NOT training me in Konigun Ryu. I know this for a fact because, I compared the sword techniques in that manual to what I was learning under him. And it was apparent that whatever forms were being taught in that manual weren't anywhere close to what he was teaching me. Just because he studied that style does not mean he teaches it.

As for Hitaniga Ryu.
My spelling is a representation of what my ears hear when my teacher speaks of it.
It could be an elision meaning two or three names or words, being said as one. Hithaniga? Hitohaniga?

As for the Koniguns being legit in Japan? Or even Hithaniga Ryu for that matter.
I am not gonna say your sources aren't correct. As they do have the advantage of getting the truth, figuratively speaking, "straight from the horses mouth." But you said your sources didn't find anything regarding the legitimacy of the Koniguns. In other words, nothing was found regarding them being for real or just a buch of "wannabes?" I would think that high members within that community of ninjitsu in Japan, would be very candid in setting the truth straight on such an acclamation. Yet nothing was said to prove or discount them either way?? Even you said, there some forms that are legit, yet their lineage has not yet been accounted for.
My point being. Regardless if a form has been referred to in aincient documents or not. YOu got to keep an open mind about these things. Japan has endured ceturies of war and reconstruction. There is no telling what has been spared or trampled down during those conflicts.
Consider this perspective as well, and I leave you with this... Please do not take this the wrong way. But your sources in Japan regardless of rank and skill are no doubt experiencing a true honor to go where the art was perfected.

...continued

Heck, I myself would LOVE to go there and study. But I think that every non-native student who goes there to learn an art such as ninjitsu, should bear in mind that they will learn ONLY what their teachers allow them to learn.

Ugokikage,
I really must start this by saying that Laff7773 posted truly in the spirit of friendship and assistance, please do not misconstrue his observations as an attack on you or your teacher.
i have recently moved from a school of MA that i found to be based on deception (not the technique of deception, but the school itself was not genuine).This was a sad discovery for me, and I took every effort to research my new style across a number of resources to establish their credibility and prevent further dissapointment.
I am new to Ninjitsu as a style, if you notice my initial question i too mentioned the Ninja-to (having spoken to my instructor since this post i now know of my mistake). Please look at the site www.kabuto.nu/ to see info on my school of ninjitsu. It is truly an international organisation, with dojo's all over the world. Its Current Grandmaster Masaaki Hatsumi is a published (and translated) recognised authority on ninjitsu, its techniques and history. (he being the 34th Grandmaster in a named lineage spanning 900 years). This post is NOT 'my style is better than your style' it is offering you info on a recognised school so that you can compare it to your teachings and come to an informed opinion on the authenticity of what you are studying. All Japanese sword techniques, even basic, originate from a named style or school of kenjutsu. Good wishes to you and your teacher. Cord.

[This message has been edited by Cord (edited 02-08-2005).]

I'll say this again because you don't seem to understand what i've written. I'm NOT saying your teacher is a fraud or that his teachings aren’t effective. I did say that with him training in a known fraudulent system he either doesn't know the system has no ties to Japan and is being taken or he does know and is helping to perpetuate it.

You asked why i didn't just give you the answer you were looking for about the iaito. I simply wanted to find out your back ground before answering. My only question was what style of ninjutsu do you study. You should have simply said your not. The reason i asked that question is because generally the practitioners of a legit ninjutsu organization know full well about the ninja-to.

What i was saying about the recognized systems of ninjutsu in Japan and their lineage is this. They do have documentation and they are referenced in older writings. Because the documentation has not been released to certain organization for inspection and verification they are not considered koryu. There are a set few systems of ninjutsu named and recognized in Japan. Konigun and hitaniga ryu, regardless of how it's spelled, are not in that list. This doesn't mean they aren't effective. It only means they aren't what their founders are claiming.

[QUOTE]My point being. Regardless if a form has been referred to in aincient documents or not. YOu got to keep an open mind about these things. Japan has endured ceturies of war and reconstruction. There is no telling what has been spared or trampled down during those conflicts.[/QUOTE]

Are you suggesting that every document mentioning the konigun was destroyed? Then somehow an American training under a man named "Saiji", something he has shown no proof of outside his own word, becomes the head of the system and spends 15 yrs, while partially in prison, translating Japanese text into English, badly i might add. Do you really believe this story? They have been given chances to provide contact information for their instructor in Japan but can't. You might want to make a run through the entire thread this time and not just a couple of pages. Maybe you can ask your instructor for the correct spelling of hitaniga? So far nothing remotely close shows up in Japan.

Since your asking for my experience. I've been training for 23 yrs in various systems. Starting with TKD when i was a kid and moving on to various forms of kempo, karate and jujutsu. I've studied iaido for about 10 years; unfortunately the styles have varied in the last 7 years due to my time in the service. When i joined the Navy i spent the first 5.5 years on one of two ships out to sea. Because of this i've only spent about a month at a time in port so i've been restricted to training with people from the ship. Fortunately i have met several outstanding martial artists from several styles and have had the pleasure of training with them. I've also been privileged enough to be able to train in schools in Australia (found some outstanding instructors there), Hong Kong and Singapore while on port visits. I also was able to train with some very skilled people from various systems while stationed in Japan. I came to shore duty as an instructor a little over a year ago and in the last couple of months have been transferred to base physical security for Point Loma Naval Base. After researching ninjutsu's history and visiting various schools for a year and a half i started train with an informal group in the Bujinkan, which is where i am now.

A little about the ninja-to. Older Japanese swords, pre-tachi and katana, are believed to have been straight. Eventually the Japanese way of forging a blade evolved and came to include differential tempering. This method continued to evolve but always included differential tempering. Because of this the idea of a quality straight blade sword made with these same traditional Japanese methods makes little sense. Prior to the tempering process the blade is straight. It is then coated with a tempering clay and the clay is thinned at the blade edge. The blade is placed in the forge and heated to it's Tmax then in placed in cool water. What this does is change the molecular structure of the steel. The area with less clay, the blade edge, will cool much faster changing the material from austentite to martinsite making the blade edge harder thus maintaining a better edge. This process also causes the blade edge to expand. The area with more clay will cool much slower. As a result the material doesn't turn to martinsite, instead it turns to pearlite which is softer and provides the blade with a little flexibility. Since this side cools slower the spine contracts. With the spine contracting and the blade edge expanding it causes the blade to curve.

With this being the forging method of Japan for hundreds of years i find it hard to believe ninjutsu practitioners would have or want a straight blade. There are those who would say they couldn't afford a quality forged blade. Then "acquire" one. It makes no sense to make your own sword with inferior methods knowing the quality will be MUCH lower than that of the basic katana and therefore be of little use against one. There is also the fact that as a ninja you would not want to be recognized as one. So why carry a weapon that would label you as one from 200 yrds away? If you visit the "ninja museum" in Japan your not going to see one either. There hasn't been a single ninja-to found that wasn't made in the last hundred years, or 50 years for that matter. There were some blades with less of a sori but this was more than likely the result of them being scavenged from katana and shortened. Like i said before the preferred blade in ninjutsu would be similar to having the saya and tsuka from a katana with a wakizashi blade.

How exactly did your ninja-to techniques vary from those you were taught with a katana? Has he told you what style of Japanese sword art he is teaching you?

I read your reply regarding the ninja-to.
To summarize what you have said so far:

No historical evidence that the straight blade ninja-to was ever used in ninjutsu.

An explanation regarding the forging process of japanese swords. Defending the fact that a lower quality straight blade ninja-to vs. higher quality curved katana is not feasable. Are you talking about a duel scenario?

A statement regarding that a ninja would not want to be recognized as one, by carring a weapon that would label them as one from 200 yrds away.

Your first comment...
I'm gonna go out on a limb here. But I think I might have an idea by what you meant by that. In which I will summarize futher in this message.

Second comment...
I do agree with you on the fact that the ninja-to was indeed a lesser quality blade than a katana.
Perhaps maybe the creator(s) of the straight blade ninja-to
did not intend for it be used as blade for dueling but more as a multi-purpose tool?
I don't know if you acknowledge events where ninja were sent on assignments of unseen infiltration or not.
But in such a scenario, a ninja may need such a tool that can support his weight on temporarily. The saya on a wakasahi, being curved, wouldn't be the best choice for such a purpose. It would rock or shimmy too much. Or give out and break? Thus, not very stable. But the saya on a straight blade is able to support human weight or an object of equal weight, for a brief moment. And while on such an assignment, if it came down to a point where a ninja did have to draw his blade, it would be for a quick moment to preserve his life, so he can quickly leave the scene. Not to stay and duel.
That's the only use I can think of, for a ninja-to.


Your third comment, using a weapon that would identify you as a ninja at 200 yds.
I agree with you too on this.
Because I would not pitty the ninja who was careless or even stupid enough to carry any weapon that would indicate him as one... in public. But if he were on an assignment to where he's supposed to utilize skills in being unseen; then it's not even relevant.


Perhaps the "ninja-to" or should I say "ninja tool," would be practical for "ninja assignments." But not so practical in the practice of "ninjitsu" combat and swordsmanship.
Yes, wakasahi with a katana tsuka and saya.
is more appropriate for that. And there is as name for a weapon with those specific features. I have heard it before... I just can't recall it at the moment.


Oh yes to answer your question about how my "ninja-to" techniques vary from the techniques I learned with the katana.

Actually, now that I have thought about it. What I was referring to as ninja-to techniques... would be better to refer them as "ninja-ken" techniques.

[This message has been edited by ugokikage (edited 02-10-2005).]

In answer to your orginal questions, I would point out that Kyogetsu Shoge, Kusari Gama and Shuriken for that matter are prohibited weapons within the UK under Section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988. They are illegal to sell/lend or gift to another person, to import or to manufacture. Therefore you will find it difficult to source these objects legally.

Regds
Mr V

Interesting that they are banned in the UK but we can buy them over the counter here with proof of identity/membership to a MA club.

Make your own rope / chain weapons by using rubber rings/blades, or wooden rings/blades.

There are a lot of plans available for them on the net. As for shuriken, they are illegal in Canada as well, but I have a ton of them at home. You can make them from thick sheet metal using a pair of tin snips. They are SHARP and will stick into most trees if you throw em right. Use a good quality metal and the points won't bend or break so quickly.

Just don't be carrying them around with you, that isn't cool.

Alternatively, go to a pub and ask the bartender for the little cardboard coasters that the beer supplier ships with the kegs. They work great as training shuriken.

It's not really my place to say so, but I would recommend NOT training in the kyoketsu shoge / kusari gama etc. Until you are a member of one of the x-kan's and are being taught by a qualified instructor. You are much more likely to build bad habits than learn how to use the weapon properly, if you try to use them by yourself.

Last but not least, don't worry about impressing people with your knowledge of ninjutsu, especially if you start training in the x-kans. It's best to forget everything everyone ever taught you before, and just start from the beginning. As you get more experience you'll be able to selectively recall which information you used to know is accurate and which is bogus (Sorry to say but it sounds like you just came fresh from a Stephen K. Hayes book, which are not entirely accurate).
The ninja-to argument has gone on since the 80's and probably will never end. If there is any one thing you decide to read in my entire post, I hope it's this: Don't talk about the ninja-to :P [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Yeah, I think I'm going to take paradox's advice.
Apparently "that weapon" has gotten enough "spotlight time" from me and laf7773. Among other subjects.
No hard feelings man, I'm over it.

Nevermind about the question about cold steel, for those that read my question a day ago. I found another subject forum on here regarding their swords. Laf7773 was the MOD in that forum as well, and thus answered my question.

Laf7773, the chisa katana by cold steel, is that a closer replication to what you meantioned before? wakasashi with katana saya and tsuka?


[This message has been edited by ugokikage (edited 02-11-2005).]

[This message has been edited by ugokikage (edited 02-13-2005).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrVigerous:
In answer to your orginal questions, I would point out that Kyogetsu Shoge, Kusari Gama and Shuriken for that matter are prohibited weapons within the UK under Section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988. They are illegal to sell/lend or gift to another person, to import or to manufacture. Therefore you will find it difficult to source these objects legally.

Regds
Mr V [/QUOTE]

Good point Mr V. I was aware, my question was not worded clearly, i am after 'training' weapons. The site LAFF7773 directed me to has safe legal representations of these things, that i will purchase when fiscaly able.
Paradoxbox,If you read my initial post you will see i am training in a recognised school of ninjitsu. If you read my second post you will see i already acknowledge that I am not experienced enough to begin learning them. I just want them so I can proceed the moment I am deemed ready. Thanks for your concern however.