Posted by: Chen Zen
Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/11/06 01:48 PM
Do you train trapping as part of your current curriculum? Why?
Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum
Posted by: Rumble
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/11/06 07:10 PM
I see alot of new age JKD practitioners discard there trapping skills. Even Burton Richardson says he doesnt really focus on any trappings anymore. As for me I love trapping as I have sparred with grapplers and my trapping skills work on them because they are not familair with this technique after the grapplers want to learn trapping but they cannot because they cannot grasp or comprehend the concept of chi sao or sensitivity drills to them its all about brute force. Also trapping skills takes alot of practice and training to keep them up to par. Although training on a wing chun dummy for your trapping is great once again its not really realistic as the dummy is not attacking you and you cannot feel his energy (sensitivity)the best way is with a live partner and with many different multiple partners so you can feel that eveyones energy is different instead of just practicing with the same person everyday.
Posted by: 5353
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/11/06 07:12 PM
rumble i am looking for a dvd that can help me with my trapping on the wing chun dummy. i have some basic trapping skills but am looking to expand my foundation can you help thank you 
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/11/06 08:54 PM
Rumble wrote
I think you have to define ‘trapping’. I train what I consider to be trapping. It’s not wing chun based however, it’s based on Greco-Roman wrestling. It still serves the same exact purpose but has shown to be more functional in the process. The training methods are ultimately what it comes down to. The wing chun method of training is “old hat”. Wooden dummy training? Forget about it. Grab a human partner and PUMMEL! That’s what is going to develop greater applicable skill.
I would immediately have to question the skill level of these “grapplers” that you are referring to. I mean, trapping is essentially a grappling skill. To say that grapplers are unfamiliar with a grappling technique is a little odd. And that’s an understatement.
I disagree that grappling is all about brute force. That wouldn’t explain Royce Gracie’s success against much bigger and stronger opponents.
That I would agree with completely! You’re speaking my language now.
-John
Quote:
I see alot of new age JKD practitioners discard there trapping skills. Even Burton Richardson says he doesnt really focus on any trappings anymore.
I think you have to define ‘trapping’. I train what I consider to be trapping. It’s not wing chun based however, it’s based on Greco-Roman wrestling. It still serves the same exact purpose but has shown to be more functional in the process. The training methods are ultimately what it comes down to. The wing chun method of training is “old hat”. Wooden dummy training? Forget about it. Grab a human partner and PUMMEL! That’s what is going to develop greater applicable skill.
Quote:
As for me I love trapping as I have sparred with grapplers and my trapping skills work on them because they are not familair with this technique….
I would immediately have to question the skill level of these “grapplers” that you are referring to. I mean, trapping is essentially a grappling skill. To say that grapplers are unfamiliar with a grappling technique is a little odd. And that’s an understatement.
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after the grapplers want to learn trapping but they cannot because they cannot grasp or comprehend the concept of chi sao or sensitivity drills to them its all about brute force.
I disagree that grappling is all about brute force. That wouldn’t explain Royce Gracie’s success against much bigger and stronger opponents.
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Also trapping skills takes alot of practice and training to keep them up to par. Although training on a wing chun dummy for your trapping is great once again its not really realistic as the dummy is not attacking you and you cannot feel his energy (sensitivity)the best way is with a live partner and with many different multiple partners so you can feel that eveyones energy is different instead of just practicing with the same person everyday.
That I would agree with completely! You’re speaking my language now.
-John
Posted by: 5353
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/11/06 11:48 PM
i train on the dummy and would'nt you agree it is essential to learn a foundation of trapping so that you can develop a feel enabling you to flow into a more freelance type
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/12/06 08:01 AM
Tough call for me. I put yes, as I use Chi Sao and checks in sparring, but probably not in the same sense that many JKD folks do.
Posted by: jkdwarrior
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/14/06 11:22 AM
I find that when sparring with an opponent of around equal skill, that there are significantly fewer opportunities for trapping than when sparring a lesser able fighter or indeed when playing around and showing my non- martial artist friends. The thing is however, that if you were to get into a fight on the street, there would probably be a greater chance of being able to trap the unskilled opponent, therefore i would say that trapping has a significant role to play here.
In class though, if i try to trap more than a few times, then i usually end up getting hit. It's not the fact that trapping isn't very useful, it's that there are certain circumstances where it should be used and where it should be avoided. Against a fast opponent or one with good footwork, forget it, there are better things you could do.
Anyway, i checked the yes box, because we do it in class about every second or third session, and we end up doing it a lot more often when sifu Andy Kimura and sibak Taky come over to teach.
In class though, if i try to trap more than a few times, then i usually end up getting hit. It's not the fact that trapping isn't very useful, it's that there are certain circumstances where it should be used and where it should be avoided. Against a fast opponent or one with good footwork, forget it, there are better things you could do.
Anyway, i checked the yes box, because we do it in class about every second or third session, and we end up doing it a lot more often when sifu Andy Kimura and sibak Taky come over to teach.
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/18/06 05:56 PM
Knowing a few traps is great. I've used basic trapping in almost every sparring match and fight I've been in sincev I learned how and it's been very effective. I like it and I'm no expert either. It doesn't work with heavy gloves o nthough.
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/19/06 05:30 AM
I think a problem is that many people often look for the traps. Or confuse traps with blocks. In kenpo terms traps are checks, obstructions that get in the way of your attack.
I wouldn't sicard the wody dummy just yet, it's a great way to develop your arms. Huge advantage over a person who has weak wrists and fore arms.
It's like practicing timing and reaction drills with your partner, or light sparring with them. Sure it's great to build that fighters instict but eventually your gonna want to hit that heavy bag so you canfeel what it's really like.
I wouldn't sicard the wody dummy just yet, it's a great way to develop your arms. Huge advantage over a person who has weak wrists and fore arms.
It's like practicing timing and reaction drills with your partner, or light sparring with them. Sure it's great to build that fighters instict but eventually your gonna want to hit that heavy bag so you canfeel what it's really like.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/19/06 07:22 AM
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Tough call for me. I put yes, as I use Chi Sao and checks in sparring, but probably not in the same sense that many JKD folks do.
I'm pretty much the same except no chi-sao. We just use pummelling of all sorts and hand fighting as our primary energy drills. Doing that with your eyes closed is wonderful (as is any form of grappling).
I'd say that we apply "trapping" all the time, though as Matt said, not in the same sense that a jkd or wing chun guy might. I mean, a good underhook or collar tie as you're uppercutting is quite effective!
-John
Posted by: Taison
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/23/06 12:54 PM
Not sure if it's the same as the one in JKD. But I do trappings, mainly from judo though.
-Taison out
-Taison out
Posted by: PastTheWall
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/24/06 10:52 AM
Our normal classes include a small amount of trapping, like pak sau / lop sau drills - but I also go to classes that are exclusively trapping - masses of it, and I love them. For some strange reason the complexity of trapping helps me more with digesting the "less" complex syllabus. I don't know why, but it does. I think it has helped me a lot, and I wouldn't drop it.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/24/06 12:14 PM
Since JKD is a practical application fighting Concept how practical is trapping and how often can you apply it sparring or fighting. Most JKD seminars seem to be less trapping and more hitting. Is trapping practical in JKD anymore. How many JKD Kwoons still teaches Wing chung as its base?? Kali/Kick boxing seems to be its base here except for the Norman branch JKD sifu, almost an inner circle guy, I forgot his name just now.
Done simple and to control I find it very applicable if its not your main stay after you hurt them, check or grab their limbs and pull them into your pounding, works at times.
Done simple and to control I find it very applicable if its not your main stay after you hurt them, check or grab their limbs and pull them into your pounding, works at times.
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/24/06 08:02 PM
Personally I ver rarely if ever do it. To me the practicality isnt there. Its all about simplicity. The idea sounds good and works well against joe barstool but against someone of higher caliber it may get you hurt.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/24/06 10:15 PM
Neko456 wrote
Trapping is EXTREMELY practical and very high-percentage – when we broaden our definition of what “trappling” exactly is.
The trouble is, most people view trapping as wing chun style, as in; pak sao, lop sao or gum sao, tan sao, etc.
Another problem is that the training methods used to develop that skill-set are often ineffective (“dead”).
Yet when I broaden my interpretation of what trapping is, I’m not limited to the wing chun approach. What I have found to be superbly effective for trapping are freestyle and (especially) Greco-Roman clinch wrestling techniques!
In that sense, I’m trapping EVERY single time that I spar. Not only that, but it actually works as well.
What I have found is that wing chun methods are antiquated. That approach isn’t the best to take. A more modern training approach is needed. Greco-Roman and freestyle “trapping” work INFINITELY better than the wing chun methods. Ultimately though, how it’s trained is more important. Train dead and you can expect dead results.
I once asked Joe Lewis (yes, “the” Joe Lewis) about his time with Bruce Lee and his opinion on trapping done the wing chun style. Lewis replied (on trapping); “I’d leave that stuff at home unless you enjoy being knocked into next week”.
Again, I’ve found trapping to work wonderfully – but not until I dropped the wing chun and began adding the wrestling. I’ve been doing it that way for more than 10 years. I’ve not found a better method in that time.
-John
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Since JKD is a practical application fighting Concept how practical is trapping and how often can you apply it sparring or fighting.
Trapping is EXTREMELY practical and very high-percentage – when we broaden our definition of what “trappling” exactly is.
The trouble is, most people view trapping as wing chun style, as in; pak sao, lop sao or gum sao, tan sao, etc.
Another problem is that the training methods used to develop that skill-set are often ineffective (“dead”).
Yet when I broaden my interpretation of what trapping is, I’m not limited to the wing chun approach. What I have found to be superbly effective for trapping are freestyle and (especially) Greco-Roman clinch wrestling techniques!
In that sense, I’m trapping EVERY single time that I spar. Not only that, but it actually works as well.
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Most JKD seminars seem to be less trapping and more hitting. Is trapping practical in JKD anymore. How many JKD Kwoons still teaches Wing chung as its base??
What I have found is that wing chun methods are antiquated. That approach isn’t the best to take. A more modern training approach is needed. Greco-Roman and freestyle “trapping” work INFINITELY better than the wing chun methods. Ultimately though, how it’s trained is more important. Train dead and you can expect dead results.
I once asked Joe Lewis (yes, “the” Joe Lewis) about his time with Bruce Lee and his opinion on trapping done the wing chun style. Lewis replied (on trapping); “I’d leave that stuff at home unless you enjoy being knocked into next week”.
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Done simple and to control I find it very applicable if its not your main stay after you hurt them, check or grab their limbs and pull them into your pounding, works at times.
Again, I’ve found trapping to work wonderfully – but not until I dropped the wing chun and began adding the wrestling. I’ve been doing it that way for more than 10 years. I’ve not found a better method in that time.
-John
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/24/06 11:59 PM
Jkogas
I wish I could see an example of Greco Roman like trapping. People see wing chun and get the wrong impression on trapping, Trapping is not something thats clean, infact nothing in the mnartial arts that actually is practical is done cleanly. It only looks that way when practcing. Anyone who is a serious practitioner and veteran knows this.
As I've stated before and everyone seems to agree, you never EVER look for the trap, Trapping is something that just happends and your lucky if you can even get one trap off, because in actuality you just supposed to be attacking. Trapping is not defensive, it's not like blocking, whih a lot of people seem to think it is. Trapping is moving the block which is the obstile which has block your attack; you are moving that obsiticle out of your way. So that you may continue your attack. It is not pretty and there is no time to trap and admire your work then strike.
I have the feeling people think trap+trap+trap = strike. WRONG WRONG WRONG.
It's more like attack+attack+attack+obsticle+trap = attack again.
You may not even get the chance to trap, you just keep going. This ofcourse it the wing chun/JKD method of trapping. As I said, I would love to see Greco Style of trapping.
Oh and by now it's almost certain trapping will not work on a bjj guy, as they will clinch you immedietly, but it will work on someone who does not want to take you down.
I wish I could see an example of Greco Roman like trapping. People see wing chun and get the wrong impression on trapping, Trapping is not something thats clean, infact nothing in the mnartial arts that actually is practical is done cleanly. It only looks that way when practcing. Anyone who is a serious practitioner and veteran knows this.
As I've stated before and everyone seems to agree, you never EVER look for the trap, Trapping is something that just happends and your lucky if you can even get one trap off, because in actuality you just supposed to be attacking. Trapping is not defensive, it's not like blocking, whih a lot of people seem to think it is. Trapping is moving the block which is the obstile which has block your attack; you are moving that obsiticle out of your way. So that you may continue your attack. It is not pretty and there is no time to trap and admire your work then strike.
I have the feeling people think trap+trap+trap = strike. WRONG WRONG WRONG.
It's more like attack+attack+attack+obsticle+trap = attack again.
You may not even get the chance to trap, you just keep going. This ofcourse it the wing chun/JKD method of trapping. As I said, I would love to see Greco Style of trapping.
Oh and by now it's almost certain trapping will not work on a bjj guy, as they will clinch you immedietly, but it will work on someone who does not want to take you down.
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/25/06 05:36 PM
I'm not so sure, I've used some basic traps, similar though not exactly like wing chun, and often look for them and they work pretty well, most fo the time, although I wouldn't spend my life working that kind of trapping, it's only so useful.
Basic "checking" is morel iek what I do and it's effective.
Basic "checking" is morel iek what I do and it's effective.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/25/06 06:08 PM
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Jkogas
I wish I could see an example of Greco Roman like trapping.
I’m kind of glad you’ve not seen it. That’s what I like best about it – no one considers Greco-Roman wrestling a “martial art”. No one knows what it looks like or better yet, how to deal with it. Gotta love that!
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People see wing chun and get the wrong impression on trapping, Trapping is not something thats clean, infact nothing in the mnartial arts that actually is practical is done cleanly. It only looks that way when practcing. Anyone who is a serious practitioner and veteran knows this.
I understand your point to an extent. You have to remember though, you PLAY LIKE YOU PRACTICE. When your practice is all nice and tidy, that doesn’t translate well to real fighting.
Not saying that simple slap blocks and grabs can’t work. I do that all the time. I’m talking about COMPOUND trapping as practiced by wing chun and Jun Fan guys. Have you ever seen compound trapping pulled off against anyone worth a sh*t? I haven’t.
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As I've stated before and everyone seems to agree, you never EVER look for the trap, Trapping is something that just happends and your lucky if you can even get one trap off, because in actuality you just supposed to be attacking.
Trust me, I understand. I’ve practiced Jun Fan for years. I worked my trapping for quite a while. Never got more than a simple couple of slaps or perhaps a lop sao once. There really isn’t much point in even practicing the way that wing chun and JKD guys do – which is one of my main points.
You’ll get better results from wrestling.
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Trapping is not defensive, it's not like blocking, whih a lot of people seem to think it is. Trapping is moving the block which is the obstile which has block your attack; you are moving that obsiticle out of your way. So that you may continue your attack. It is not pretty and there is no time to trap and admire your work then strike.
That works in theory but in my experience, doesn’t really fly in the real world. Here’s my opinion on why that is: Trapping is a defensive tool. It works off of a person’s defensive reactions as you’ve mentioned. The problem is, attackers, ATTACK! They usually AREN’T reacting. It’s usually the person who has BEEN attacked that is reacting. There is no time to trap when some is in front of you throwing Tank Abbott style haymakers.
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I have the feeling people think trap+trap+trap = strike. WRONG WRONG WRONG.
It's more like attack+attack+attack+obsticle+trap = attack again.
Again, I understand the principle. I just don’t see it happening that way outside of a wing chun school.
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You may not even get the chance to trap, you just keep going. This ofcourse it the wing chun/JKD method of trapping. As I said, I would love to see Greco Style of trapping.
Oh and by now it's almost certain trapping will not work on a bjj guy, as they will clinch you immedietly, but it will work on someone who does not want to take you down.
Would you not consider the clinch as a “trap”? If not, why not?
-John
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/25/06 06:56 PM
The clinch is rerally the only "trap" I use. But to me it falls more under the category of Grappling than trapping.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/25/06 08:49 PM
I consider trapping to be grappling though, but that's me.
If you can either hit or grapple, what then is trapping if not momentary grappling?
Then, consider what a trap is designed to do (ie, "trap" a limb). Grappling does so and does it well.
-John
If you can either hit or grapple, what then is trapping if not momentary grappling?
Then, consider what a trap is designed to do (ie, "trap" a limb). Grappling does so and does it well.
-John
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/25/06 09:47 PM
Hey john, you know, you're completely right about the whole compund trap thing, now that I htink about it more, I've only managed to use a 1 or 2 slaps or parries jun fan style at a time before going more free style and wrestling.
The problem is thta jun fan/wing chun style is too by-rote and requiers certain reactions form your opponent. it's an overly reactive method. You put too much in the hands of fate and the other guy.
The problem is thta jun fan/wing chun style is too by-rote and requiers certain reactions form your opponent. it's an overly reactive method. You put too much in the hands of fate and the other guy.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/25/06 09:57 PM
Damn right! Very well put.
-John
-John
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/26/06 12:03 AM
Cant argue with that John. To me though, If i can trap you, I can get into the clinch. If Im up close thats what I want. I want a good clinch and either a few good shots or a quick takedown. Or I want to back out and strike but its usually the clinch.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/26/06 01:33 PM
To you all seeking a better way, but heres something to ponder. And your answers will be of much help to me. Please don't take this defensive it not meant to be. 
So trapping and Wing Chun is becoming less of what JKDers are doing and more practicle applications are being used.
This is Ok because JKD doesn't have to adhear to any style but why was't this addressed earlier, in realistic examination. Are you just mimicking what works in the now popular MMA telecast. Do you really have to turn trapping or checking into a clinch or takedown. Can you not just angle or spin them and strike to the back of head or body, then knock them down???
Are you still being confined by a method that is popular not not always effective for everybody?
Countering with grabs, pulls and pushes to off balance and hit are still effective wouldn't you say espeicially if you don't want to go to the ground. If you could imagine that.
If you knocked someone down in a confrontation would U always want to try and mount them???
I'm not against ground fighting it should be practiced of course. But should always be the destination? If it is isn't that being trapped in a method???
So trapping and Wing Chun is becoming less of what JKDers are doing and more practicle applications are being used.
This is Ok because JKD doesn't have to adhear to any style but why was't this addressed earlier, in realistic examination. Are you just mimicking what works in the now popular MMA telecast. Do you really have to turn trapping or checking into a clinch or takedown. Can you not just angle or spin them and strike to the back of head or body, then knock them down???
Are you still being confined by a method that is popular not not always effective for everybody?
Countering with grabs, pulls and pushes to off balance and hit are still effective wouldn't you say espeicially if you don't want to go to the ground. If you could imagine that.
If you knocked someone down in a confrontation would U always want to try and mount them???
I'm not against ground fighting it should be practiced of course. But should always be the destination? If it is isn't that being trapped in a method???
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 10/26/06 01:38 PM
I use the clinch just because its a little easier for me. Also I dont always look to go to the ground and if I knock a guy down and Im standing Im either running or stomping his head then running. Depends on if I think he will get up and chase. I was NEVER a fan of trapping, before or after the "MMA Movement"
Posted by: Taison
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 11/01/06 05:34 AM
Reading BL's words;
Trapping is a technique that immobilizes or restricting your opponent movement capabilities while still giving you the opportunity for you to attack from an angle where he is unable to protect.
So basically, a clinch = trap. So I agree, stand-up grappling is a form of trapping as when in a clinch it gives the opponent very little choice for techniques.
So basically, Greco-Roman/Judo/BJJ/Sambo is all about trapping to go to the ground. Or am I wrong?
So, from a Judo point of view; blocking a punch to be able to grab an elbow, lock it and grab his neck to go into a clinch is a trap in my opinion. What can he possibly do from there? Unless he's good at clinch, he's more or less toast.
-Taison out
Trapping is a technique that immobilizes or restricting your opponent movement capabilities while still giving you the opportunity for you to attack from an angle where he is unable to protect.
So basically, a clinch = trap. So I agree, stand-up grappling is a form of trapping as when in a clinch it gives the opponent very little choice for techniques.
So basically, Greco-Roman/Judo/BJJ/Sambo is all about trapping to go to the ground. Or am I wrong?
So, from a Judo point of view; blocking a punch to be able to grab an elbow, lock it and grab his neck to go into a clinch is a trap in my opinion. What can he possibly do from there? Unless he's good at clinch, he's more or less toast.
-Taison out
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 11/01/06 05:54 AM
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So basically, a clinch = trap. So I agree, stand-up grappling is a form of trapping as when in a clinch it gives the opponent very little choice for techniques.
Yep, that's the whole idea.
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So basically, Greco-Roman/Judo/BJJ/Sambo is all about trapping to go to the ground. Or am I wrong?
Yes, but not always. In fighting, you can also use many of the positions the way they are used in muay Thai to throw knees or elbows.
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So, from a Judo point of view; blocking a punch to be able to grab an elbow, lock it and grab his neck to go into a clinch is a trap in my opinion. What can he possibly do from there? Unless he's good at clinch, he's more or less toast.
Exactly! What this does is to provide a method for a smaller but more technical fighter to force the game into a skill situation as opposed to a power situation. You force your opponent to beat you with superior technique as opposed to dumb luck and brute power.
If you're the more technical fighter, you can use the clinch to your advantage and work to strike or take your opponent down. On the ground, we're all the same size in a sense.
-John
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 05/14/07 09:26 PM
So glad that we have expanded on what trapping really is. When people think of trapping they only think wing chun or possible fma. But trapping involves so much more like muay thai, judo, bjj, wrestling, sambo.
I have a question in reagards to the body clinch or wrestlers clinch, why would a smaller man body clinch with a bigger man, to me this does not make sence because i takes away all of his essential tools, his head butt, elbows, and knees. When someone body clinches to me it is because they are bigger and of superior strength. While I know bjj was based up the smaller man taking the bigger man to the ground to equalize many of the techniques used and giving the advantage to the more skilled man. This case being the smaller guy who initiated the ground fighting.
However, in a one on one street fight a smaller man would not initiate the body clinch correct? To me it is best if he sticks with the thai clinch and destroy his opponent from there.
The above scenario is just an example of a controlled situation. Please don't add any other variables or stimuli to it, I konw there are some dying to add extra assailants to the situation or maybe even weapons. But please don't, I myself am a beginner in the world of ground fighting and have no formal instruction in it. As many of you know I am learning off the on-line material I have been able to find.
I have a question in reagards to the body clinch or wrestlers clinch, why would a smaller man body clinch with a bigger man, to me this does not make sence because i takes away all of his essential tools, his head butt, elbows, and knees. When someone body clinches to me it is because they are bigger and of superior strength. While I know bjj was based up the smaller man taking the bigger man to the ground to equalize many of the techniques used and giving the advantage to the more skilled man. This case being the smaller guy who initiated the ground fighting.
However, in a one on one street fight a smaller man would not initiate the body clinch correct? To me it is best if he sticks with the thai clinch and destroy his opponent from there.
The above scenario is just an example of a controlled situation. Please don't add any other variables or stimuli to it, I konw there are some dying to add extra assailants to the situation or maybe even weapons. But please don't, I myself am a beginner in the world of ground fighting and have no formal instruction in it. As many of you know I am learning off the on-line material I have been able to find.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 05/14/07 10:30 PM
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So glad that we have expanded on what trapping really is. When people think of trapping they only think wing chun or possible fma. But trapping involves so much more like muay thai, judo, bjj, wrestling, sambo.
Yes. Trapping means to immobilize a limb. That can obviously be done using a variety of methods. To “limit” it to Wing Chun seems a bit absurd doesn’t it?
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I have a question in reagards to the body clinch or wrestlers clinch, why would a smaller man body clinch with a bigger man….
Can’t YOU think of any reasons? Here are two to get you started: 1) You may not have a choice. He may clinch YOU (which in that case, you still need a clinch game). 2) He may be beating you senseless in the free movement (long) range and you need to stop the bloodletting.
Seriously, if you are getting the snot beat out of you (unless you just happen to be the worlds greatest fighter), you clearly need an alternative strategy. That one wouldn’t obviously be working out very well I’d say. Thus the clinch. If you can’t run away, the only OTHER option would be IN.
Trust me, against a larger man who doesn’t have a clinch game, you’re not at that much of a disadvantage. I mean, he’s going to be larger than you no matter what or, in what range you happen to be in. Larger men can hit very hard if you’ve not noticed.
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…to me this does not make sense because it takes away all of his essential tools, his head butt, elbows, and knees.
Its quite simple. You’re just missing the point. You see, the bigger guy has all the essential tools himself. He has the head butts, elbows, knees as well. Not only that, he’s going to have the potential of being more powerful with them as well.
Lets call the clinch the “attached” range (“trapping”). If you’re not attached, you’re allowing an “exchange” to occur every second you aren’t attached. An exchange with a larger opponent isn’t a very smart idea. I’m sure you would probably agree.
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When someone body clinches to me it is because they are bigger and of superior strength.
Not always bro. Don’t make that assumption. There are some smaller guys who are DEMON wrestlers. Wrestling has a LOT of technique and leverage. Don’t underestimate it as a combat art.
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While I know bjj was based up the smaller man taking the bigger man to the ground to equalize many of the techniques used and giving the advantage to the more skilled man. This case being the smaller guy who initiated the ground fighting.
However, in a one on one street fight a smaller man would not initiate the body clinch correct? To me it is best if he sticks with the thai clinch and destroy his opponent from there.
How else would the smaller guy get the larger guy to the ground then (if he avoided the clinch)? Surely you’re not suggesting shooting in (not to say that such things aren’t viable but I wouldn’t want to get caught under a sprawl against anyone)?
But there’s nothing wrong with using the Thai clinch. In my opinion, the wrestling clinch is superior to the basic Thai clinch. While I know that “plumm” means “to wrestle”, I believe the wrestling game of WRESTLING is superior to the wrestling game of muay Thai.
In short, a pure Thai boxer wrestling with a Greco guy is going to end up on the losing end and getting slammed on his head. Thus, the wrestling clinch takes priority of the standing, clinch and strike game. BOTH however are necessary. Both can also lead to takedowns. I just want to base all of my wrestling games on wrestling arts and not striking arts. Make sense?
The clinch IS wrestling. Thus, learning to wrestle is crucial.
-John
Posted by: Taison
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 05/19/07 02:39 AM
I also want to add to John's post, that Muay Thai clinch involves very little head-movement as opposed to wrestling where there's a lot more head movement while in the clinch. Hence it's a lot more difficult to nail a wrestler with a strike from a wrestling clinch, than it is to nail a boxer with a strike from the MT clinch.
Plumm involves no head-movement whatsoever because it is based on holding your opponent's neck to limit his head movement. However, we all know that the ideal clinch doesn't exist and that it will depend solely on what you're able to grab to determine what clinch you're going for.
I, myself, use wrestling clinch because it's been PROVEN more efficient, and I'm a sucka for throws
-Taison out
Plumm involves no head-movement whatsoever because it is based on holding your opponent's neck to limit his head movement. However, we all know that the ideal clinch doesn't exist and that it will depend solely on what you're able to grab to determine what clinch you're going for.
I, myself, use wrestling clinch because it's been PROVEN more efficient, and I'm a sucka for throws
-Taison out
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 05/19/07 04:20 AM
Because I'm more of a striker I go for the MT clinch so that I can use my most lethal of tools etc. knees, elbows, and head butt. I find that in a real altercation this is where you want to be, from the MT clinch you can control your attacker and keep them off balance or you have the option of attacks. They are also rendered useless; although not completely.
I still believe the wrestlers clinch or judo clinch gives the advantage to the bigger more powerful person, even if the little guy is skilled, i would rather keep the fight standing in striking range rather than taking it to the ground.
Obviously you can see a big hole in my game, thats why I currently train ground. But currently I am learning more how to control and maintain positions rather than learning how to submit, I'm still on the basics. I can now transition but what i find difficult for me is maintaining full mount. Funny thing is I thought this would be the easiest to keep.
I still believe the wrestlers clinch or judo clinch gives the advantage to the bigger more powerful person, even if the little guy is skilled, i would rather keep the fight standing in striking range rather than taking it to the ground.
Obviously you can see a big hole in my game, thats why I currently train ground. But currently I am learning more how to control and maintain positions rather than learning how to submit, I'm still on the basics. I can now transition but what i find difficult for me is maintaining full mount. Funny thing is I thought this would be the easiest to keep.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 05/19/07 07:57 AM
Honestly, there is really a great deal of difference between the Thai clinch and the wrestlers clinch. The common bond between them is center position. THAT is the thing that affords "leverage". Thus, it's about who has the leverage and not as much about who is bigger and stronger.
Being bigger and stronger however is ALWAYS a factor, regardless of what type of clinch or what range you're fighting from. The more skilled that larger opponent is, the more this is true.
Also, the elbows, knees and headbutts are as easily performed from a wrestling clinch (just wanted to throw that out there).
Should also mention that the clinch is dynamic. No one is going to get a clinch position and easily hang onto it. It's going to mean pummeling and transitioning. The same is true of the Thai clinch (specifically, the double neck tie) if the guy understands how to pummel and counter.
Too much PFS philosophy floating around in here.....
-John
Being bigger and stronger however is ALWAYS a factor, regardless of what type of clinch or what range you're fighting from. The more skilled that larger opponent is, the more this is true.
Also, the elbows, knees and headbutts are as easily performed from a wrestling clinch (just wanted to throw that out there).
Should also mention that the clinch is dynamic. No one is going to get a clinch position and easily hang onto it. It's going to mean pummeling and transitioning. The same is true of the Thai clinch (specifically, the double neck tie) if the guy understands how to pummel and counter.
Too much PFS philosophy floating around in here.....
-John
Posted by: Taison
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 05/19/07 08:13 AM
Personally, I've found the Thai clinch, although viable, to be just basic in wrestling.
I can do from a wrestling clinch exactly, if not better, from a wrestling clinch.
Basically, the double-neck tie, isn't the end-all solution to clinching. There's way too many variables and there's a lot of solutions to get out of it. I find it easy to get out of the double-neck tie than it is from a under-hook neck pinch (one hand grabs elbow, the other on the neck).
Being primarily a striker, I don't like the ground, but wrestling has aided me TONS in keeping me standing. Wrestling also has given me the god-sent technique called 'sprawl'. It's like a beam of light shining the sky. It's god-sent and divine. I still can't believe I spent most of my years without it.
-Taison out
I can do from a wrestling clinch exactly, if not better, from a wrestling clinch.
Basically, the double-neck tie, isn't the end-all solution to clinching. There's way too many variables and there's a lot of solutions to get out of it. I find it easy to get out of the double-neck tie than it is from a under-hook neck pinch (one hand grabs elbow, the other on the neck).
Quote:You can do the same from a wrestling clinch, and you have the option to throw, takedown, or pummel your opponent.
from the MT clinch you can control your attacker and keep them off balance or you have the option of attacks.
Quote:Hmm, I think you're confused here. The wrestling game is about being able to stand on your legs while taking your opponent down. If both are skilled and won't go down, that's clinching. Clinching is basically wrestling while standing.
i would rather keep the fight standing in striking range rather than taking it to the ground.
Quote:But has been PROVEN by many smaller wrestlers on plenty of occassion it works for smaller people and it's not based on strength (even though wrestlers are quite strong compared to the rest). It's all about leverage, momentum and dominating in the clinch, not so much about strength. But strength helps!
I still believe the wrestlers clinch or judo clinch gives the advantage to the bigger more powerful person
Being primarily a striker, I don't like the ground, but wrestling has aided me TONS in keeping me standing. Wrestling also has given me the god-sent technique called 'sprawl'. It's like a beam of light shining the sky. It's god-sent and divine. I still can't believe I spent most of my years without it.
-Taison out
Posted by: Demonologist437
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 05/21/07 02:10 PM
I would say, that trapping is still a range and it still needs to be run through like everything else. Whether it's Greco-Roman wrestling or Hsing-Yi, so long as you've found something that works and works for YOU, then it's good I'd say.
Bruce stressed that it's about expressing yourself, and so that is what I would say is the only guidline. And, taking and applying only what is useful wherever you can get it from. Of course, personal preference and attributes play into things as well. While I have friends wqho like rolling around on the ground, I'd rather stay on my feet since I have long arms and legs with fairly quick hands and I can utilize fully my footwork which I love so dearly. When it comes to trapping, my aim is to not get up close and personal but to be able to crack him with some of my Arnis trapping, and then gte back to punching and kicking and footwork. I'm good at it, and can make it work fine. Doesn't mean I've found some "new way" that is somehow better than what other people do or other people used to do, it's just what works for me.
Do that with trapping, and any range you could end up in, and you'll do fine I'd say.
On a brief side note, I don't trust most of the things Joe Lewis says. It's common knowledge he's not a nice person and was the "bad boy" of Karate back in his day. Further, he is very two-faced when it comes to talking about Bruce and JKD, though he owes one of his championships to training with Bruce. In some interviews, he talks nicely about him and JKD, while in just as many he berates the dead man and his art. I do not totally disregard everything I hear from Mr. Lewis, but I am skeptical whenever it's about Bruce or JKD.
Bruce stressed that it's about expressing yourself, and so that is what I would say is the only guidline. And, taking and applying only what is useful wherever you can get it from. Of course, personal preference and attributes play into things as well. While I have friends wqho like rolling around on the ground, I'd rather stay on my feet since I have long arms and legs with fairly quick hands and I can utilize fully my footwork which I love so dearly. When it comes to trapping, my aim is to not get up close and personal but to be able to crack him with some of my Arnis trapping, and then gte back to punching and kicking and footwork. I'm good at it, and can make it work fine. Doesn't mean I've found some "new way" that is somehow better than what other people do or other people used to do, it's just what works for me.
Do that with trapping, and any range you could end up in, and you'll do fine I'd say.
On a brief side note, I don't trust most of the things Joe Lewis says. It's common knowledge he's not a nice person and was the "bad boy" of Karate back in his day. Further, he is very two-faced when it comes to talking about Bruce and JKD, though he owes one of his championships to training with Bruce. In some interviews, he talks nicely about him and JKD, while in just as many he berates the dead man and his art. I do not totally disregard everything I hear from Mr. Lewis, but I am skeptical whenever it's about Bruce or JKD.
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 07/02/07 07:43 AM
Quote:
Too much PFS philosophy floating around in here.....
LOL, you caught me. But it's no secret I've admitted it to you before, thats why I ask questions rather than just challenge anyones post.Yes, the majority of my JKD knowledge comes from PFS.
However, on a personal note, I find it very difficult to use my most dangerous tools from the wrestlers clinch. Because while I strike that other guy gets leverage on me. Isn't that how it works? I've gotten very comfortable getting into the thai clinch and keeping my opponent there. I constantly throw them off balance and use my shoulder and bicep slap. But thats pretty much just to control the man, in reality he would be down in 1 to 3 strikes.
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 07/02/07 07:49 AM
I too know how to sprawl, however, I find that it is better to drop my center low, and use footwork to back away. When the guy comes in for a take down, I use my fore arms for protection, I place them on the side of his neck to keep him from coming in, from here I can elbow, knee, and head butt.
Yes John once again this is PFS.
Have you seen it before?
Yes John once again this is PFS.
Have you seen it before?
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 07/02/07 08:04 AM
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Hey, it's no problem. At one point, I was heavily into PFS. I'm even a certified instructor under Vu (although I'm not listed on his site). I just grew out of the PFS stuff a while back. Conceptually a lot of it is good stuff! The RAT for example is an awesome concept and to an extent, I still use it. Its just been modified.
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However, on a personal note, I find it very difficult to use my most dangerous tools from the wrestlers clinch. Because while I strike that other guy gets leverage on me. Isn't that how it works?
It's a matter of learning how to wrestle for specific upper body positions. There are some excellent positions from which to maneuver your opponent around and strike from.
Having a background in PFS with their emphasis on the "HKE" (headbutts/knees/elbows), I understand where you're coming from. That said, those strikes are still available from the wrestling clinch that I'm referring to. In fact, the headbutt is a primary tool in good wrestling! No it's not an "in and out" type of move. It's done more like a RAM where after you've blasted your head into position, you KEEP it there. And no, there is no easy way to adequately explain this - you have to see it done basically.
Striking out of the clinch the way we do it has to be adjusted. It requires diligent training. You have to wrestle for your positions and learn to hit on the fly in a dynamic fashion. Then you work to wrestle for a position, work your strikes, then regain position. So it’s sort of like this; wrestle for a tie up, hit, regain control, pummel into another tie up (if necessary), hit, regain control. Repeat.
There are positions that you tend to work for over others. These generally involve working to angle off slightly from your opponent. They allow you to control the center, throw knees and elbows easily or, rake the eyes, hit the groin, etc. They ALSO allow you to easily take the opponent to the ground if need be.
Many of these positions allow you to take the opponent down using low risk moves that often leave you standing, so there are some very good things to be found using the wrestling approach. Like many things, it just has to be slightly modified for striking.
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I've gotten very comfortable getting into the thai clinch and keeping my opponent there. I constantly throw them off balance and use my shoulder and bicep slap. But thats pretty much just to control the man, in reality he would be down in 1 to 3 strikes.
If you’re good at the Thai clinch, then that’s your game. Continue to work and hone it. Good job. If you ever get the opportunity, work with a good Greco-Roman guy who doesn’t have an ego. Even better if he’s already exploring Greco-Roman for fighting. Add it to the mix of what you do. You’ll enjoy the process.
I still work the Thai clinch approach into the wrestling approach that I use, thus it tends to be a mix of each. MMA in other words, lol.
-John
Posted by: janxspirit
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 03/04/08 04:28 PM
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I see alot of new age JKD practitioners discard there trapping skills. Even Burton Richardson says he doesnt really focus on any trappings anymore. As for me I love trapping as I have sparred with grapplers and my trapping skills work on them because they are not familair with this technique after the grapplers want to learn trapping but they cannot because they cannot grasp or comprehend the concept of chi sao or sensitivity drills to them its all about brute force. Also trapping skills takes alot of practice and training to keep them up to par. Although training on a wing chun dummy for your trapping is great once again its not really realistic as the dummy is not attacking you and you cannot feel his energy (sensitivity)the best way is with a live partner and with many different multiple partners so you can feel that eveyones energy is different instead of just practicing with the same person everyday.
We don't do ANY Wing Chun energy drills. We don't do any wing chun period (cept for maybe a straight blast now and then)
But we do find ourselves trapping. The thing is, it is much more like wrestling / greco roman applications - arm drags and stuff.
So we don't really trap in the sense of wing chun.
But we DO still stometimes shove our opponent's arm across his own body.
Posted by: IExcalibui2
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 03/28/08 02:36 PM
Theres too many essay long replys here *ahem John*
Yes I trap but usually only to get myself inside and then the trapping stops and the massive hurting begins
Yes I trap but usually only to get myself inside and then the trapping stops and the massive hurting begins
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 03/30/08 01:27 PM
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Theres too many essay long replys here *ahem John*
What the hell is THAT supposed to mean, lol? Are you wanting me to STFU or something?
(like thats going to happen)
Posted by: jude33
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 03/30/08 02:33 PM
Quote:Quote:
Theres too many essay long replys here *ahem John*
Ermm!!! If he has to make a point by writing an essay, he has to make it long . But I shall keep this one short.
Thats it!!Quote:
What the hell is THAT supposed to mean, lol? Are you wanting me to STFU or something?
Nope ,Its said that some people might only have a limited concentration span.
I havent so "Keep writing".
Write as long an essey as you want to. If you want to write 5000 words fine by me.
It all makes good sense to me.
Jude
Posted by: Taison
Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum - 04/01/08 03:35 AM
*Hand Kogas a baseball bat*
It's clobbering time!!!!
-Taison out
It's clobbering time!!!!
-Taison out