What is "good" Jeet Kune Do?

Posted by: WuXing

What is "good" Jeet Kune Do? - 05/10/06 06:20 AM

For those who are experienced and/or teaching Jeet Kune Do...what should a "good" JKD school have to offer? What things would you expect to see that would say to you "this is legit"? Is there a standard curriculum or a standard of material that should be taught at any JKD school, or is that sort of against the philosophy of what JKD is?

I understand the philosophy, and tenets of simplicity, aliveness, and adaptability. I undertstand that it isn't really a specific "style", per say. But I am wondering how one would judge any particular school or gym which says it teaches JKD. They must teach some techniques and curriculum...are there certain techniques or styles that you will always see at a "good" JKD school?
Posted by: JKogas

Re: What is "good" Jeet Kune Do? - 05/10/06 06:40 AM

What is “good” JKD… Good question!


Number one on the list would be an athletic training environment! People should be sweating and not standing around. You’ll see a LOT of the no-sweating and standing around in places where a more traditional (compound) trapping approach is done. Run for the hills if you wander into one of those schools.

You should be training (athletically) the fundamentals for each range. Some schools may have a level/phase system and others may not. If they have a phase system, you should still be learning the fundamentals of each range, even in the beginning phase.

The ranges are stand-up, clinch and ground (which include kicking, punching, trapping/clinch and ground)

Thus you should be learning the fundamentals of kickboxing/western boxing for stand-up (how to throw a jab, cross, defense, etc.), the fundamentals of the clinch (positioning, pummeling, strikes, takedowns, etc) and the fundamentals of ground-fighting (upa, elbow escape, etc).

Stylistically, you should see elements of:

*Western boxing
*Muay Thai
*Savate
*Greco-Roman style clinch work
*Jun Fan is often present (and sometimes NOT)
*Brazilian jiu-jitsu ground work

Training should be alive and dynamic. If you’re practicing the fundamentals of kickboxing for example, people should be moving around and throwing punches and kicks to their partners who are defending against them and firing punches and kicks in return, etc. You should see focus and Thai pad work also.

You should see people sparring as well. If there is no protective equipment (gloves, shin guards, headgear, etc.), you should ask if sparring is emphasized (as it should be). Sparring may be isolated to one range, or it may (and should) include ALL ranges. Doing isolation sparring and free sparring mirroring “vale tudo” are necessary (doesn’t mean they’re trying to kill each other though…make sure of that. You don’t want to go into a place where the egos are out of control).

Etc.



-John
Posted by: theoldone

Re: What is "good" Jeet Kune Do? - 05/10/06 12:19 PM

No comments on that, one way or another. But I think you should avoid a place that says:

"scrutiny & selection to exclude low socio economic, uneducated"

and groups them in the same sentence with "anti-social elements and those with criminal records"
Posted by: jkdwarrior

Re: What is "good" Jeet Kune Do? - 05/10/06 12:56 PM

Quote:


Number one on the list would be an athletic training environment! People should be sweating and not standing around.




Here here!! At the end of the day, if you train hard, you fight hard. Lots of sparring is good too, although if there are lots of beginners, then there should be a greater emphasis on technique.
Posted by: jkdwarrior

Re: What is "good" Jeet Kune Do? - 05/10/06 01:07 PM

Quote:

Is there a standard curriculum or a standard of material that should be taught at any JKD school, or is that sort of against the philosophy of what JKD is?




There is a curriculum, and at the beginner level, it starts with single basic punches, kicks, four corner defense and footwork. It then progresses on to combinations, distance and lots of energy drills. This happens in the class i go to, which is now taught in direct lineage with BL and we get lessons and tutorials from the kimura family every year or two as part of this. There are many self stylised JKD classes, not the actual Jun Fan fighting modified gung fu, but as long as there's lots of work on the basics and tough training, then you're heading in the right direction.
Posted by: QuietGal

Re: What is "good" Jeet Kune Do? - 05/10/06 02:34 PM

Overall, I do agree with your comments. However, just because a school may not teach ground fighting within their cirriculum, that does not make it a bad school.

A good JKD school I feel it open to the ideas taught and conceptualized by BL and some (not all) of the ideas and practices from other arts. This also includes the roots of JKD, Jun Fan Gung Fu.

I personally get irritated with the whole original/conceptual debate and I appreciate groups that don't get hung up on what has to be JKD. I think that helps make a good school. Then there are always personal preferences that draws someone to a particular school over another.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: What is "good" Jeet Kune Do? - 05/10/06 02:55 PM

Quote:

Overall, I do agree with your comments. However, just because a school may not teach ground fighting within their cirriculum, that does not make it a bad school.




Bad? No.....but incomplete? Yes.
Posted by: ShikataGaNai

Re: What is "good" Jeet Kune Do? - 05/10/06 03:32 PM

Would it be debatable that if BL was alive today, he would not be doing the same thing or teaching the same techniques? Considering how far people like Inosanto, Vunak, Rick Faye, Hartsell and all their students have taken the initial concept, wouldn't it seem more right that JKD is a state of mind, less than it is a school or style?
The thing to keep in mind is that when BL was teaching, very few westerners knew what kung fu, let alone any of it's specific styles were. Kali and BJJ were totally foreign concepts. Given all that, why wouldn't a quality JKD school be measured up to whether it teaches groundfighting or not? I am in no way bashing schools that don't teach it, but I think ignoring ground fighting altogether and just saying "make sure it doesn't go to the ground" is counter progressive and it leaves a huge gap in a vital defensive point in the here and now.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: What is "good" Jeet Kune Do? - 05/10/06 04:11 PM

I think that if we are to follow JKD, then we have to adhere to it's concepts. One of those concepts states that we must strive to "float in totality".

How are we to float in totality if we do not practice ground fighting? To eliminate the ground game from a curriculum would be to "semi-float in partiality".

No doubt that Lee would have changed and continued to evolve, just as Dan Inosanto has (a black belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu).

It doesn't bother me however if people DON'T pursue ground fighting but I do think it should be part of any decent school these days.


-John
Posted by: Taison

Re: What is "good" Jeet Kune Do? - 05/14/06 09:09 AM

A question just poped up in my head.

How can "JKD" be "JKD" if you have restraints and limitations? I mean, it would be incomplete.

I doubt BL would say "No groundfighting" when clearly, he did a lot of research on it even though he was never able to see the great importance of it. I believe groundfighting was something, he thought, original.

-Taison out
Posted by: jkdwarrior

Re: What is "good" Jeet Kune Do? - 05/15/06 09:31 AM

Quote:


It doesn't bother me however if people DON'T pursue ground fighting but I do think it should be part of any decent school these days.


-John




Yeah, there are so many ground fighters out there now that even if you are an excellent stand up fighter, but have no groundwork, then a mediocre ground fighter will have a huge advantage if you end up in his domain.
I guess the best thing you can do to learn how to fight, is to replcate the fighting environment as closely as possible. The best (and nastiest) way is of course sparring with NHB. The biggest problem with this is that some people really don't like it. I've seen plenty of people leave the class after a couple of weeks, just after they get hit with their first decent shot and they realise that sometimes it hurts, and sometimes it's not fun to be a practising MAist
Posted by: JKogas

Re: What is "good" Jeet Kune Do? - 05/15/06 06:33 PM

Quote:


....The best (and nastiest) way is of course sparring with NHB. The biggest problem with this is that some people really don't like it. I've seen plenty of people leave the class after a couple of weeks, just after they get hit with their first decent shot and they realise that sometimes it hurts, and sometimes it's not fun to be a practising MAist





The problem is they're going too hard. All people need to do is back off and dial it down to a level they're comfortable with.

Training NHB and vale tudo is not about killing and beating down your partners. However it's not surprising that many gym and school owners don't realize this. The GOOD one's DO however.

You don't need to go that hard when training NHB/Vale Tudo unless you're training for a fight or you are involved in law enforcement, etc. Even then you want to do so only occassionally. Otherwise people will get banged up and won't be ABLE to train.

I'd rather train lighter and train consistently than train balls-out and be only able to do so once a week (or less) because I'm injured.

Consistent, intelligent training is a hundred times better than hard training. Smarter, not harder is the way to go.


-John
Posted by: jkdwarrior

Re: What is "good" Jeet Kune Do? - 05/16/06 12:27 PM

I agree. What usually happens though, in my class is that the others hit hard, so i kind of have to. I also like to stay near fighting condition so i don't mind it really. I guess it could be bad for beginners though.
Posted by: SmithNWessonDo

Proper Leadership and Supervision - 06/13/06 12:11 PM

The posts made here about physical participation, realistic training, and proficiency are right on; however, you should also look at the instructor(s) as well as his/her/their training ability and the fabric of those people's character before forming an opinion about the group as a whole. Look at how that person conducts himself, look at how he respects the individuals there, and read body language. Also look at the direct supervision given to the training such as leading drills or refereeing the sparring. A good trainer will not micromanage every little thing, but will be very observant, patient, and articulate with the participants. (Notice how I used the word participant rather than student.) He will also take health related issues into consideration and know when to put an end to an exercise if it becomes unhealthy.

Signs of a bad school would be complacency, lack of physical participation, excessive contact in drilling, male and female students flirting/exchanging sexual innuendo, and tell-tale signs of animosity or political infighting. If you see those things it would probably be a good idea to look elsewhere.