Breaking tradition

Posted by: jkdwarrior

Breaking tradition - 05/03/06 08:20 PM

Right so I studied traditional karate for seven years as a kid, and every single time I punched, I brought my other hand back towards my hip. Now I do only JKD and go to two classes a week.
It's also true that many martial arts classes have broken away from the traditional methods, because scientifically and mathematically this can improve the martial artist's potential.
What I can't help wonder though, is why this change didn't happen hundreds of years ago. I mean it was only after Bruce Lee showed us the way, that we all changed. Even when I was a kid, I taught myself differently than what the instructor taught, because when i was involved in Kumite (a sparring match for the non traditional MAist), I learned that it was better to keep a guard hand near my chin. I'm sure many people in the past would have noticied this also, but does anyone know why it didn't become the norm until very recently? Was Bruce merely the first to Declare it publicly? After all, he didn't invent JKD, but just noticed it, and told everyone. Were the practitioners of the past afraid? Did some people break away and start this kind of training but told no one? Has anyone else thought about this?
I suppose i'm kind of obliged to say here that it's the person, and not the style that determines the fight outcome blah blah blah, but like it or not, the MMA technique IS superior to that of the traditional styles. It's mathematical fact.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/03/06 10:04 PM

That is a very good question. I never understood that myself. Even in the more progressive karate systems like American Kenpo, they still taught it using the hand-on-the-hip. Even though Ed Parker used to do western boxing!

Tradition, I guess.
Posted by: ShikataGaNai

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/03/06 10:06 PM

Right, because there weren't like a BILLION boxers that already knew to put their hands up by their jawlines, or pretty much anyone from any country in south east asia. Yep, Bruce figured that one out all by himself.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/03/06 10:26 PM

Quote:

Right, because there weren't like a BILLION boxers that already knew to put their hands up by their jawlines, or pretty much anyone from any country in south east asia. Yep, Bruce figured that one out all by himself.



ShikataGaNai -

I believe that jkdwarrior was specifically referring to tradtional martial artists, not boxers. No one is saying the Bruce was the first one to realize about keeping hands up. But the trend in traditional martial arts was/is to have the opposite hand retract to the hip.

Bruce did start a lot of people thinking about just why they do that, in modern times.
Posted by: ShikataGaNai

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/04/06 01:43 AM

Ah, my apologies. It just seems that there are so many people in the JKD forum that just want to deify Bruce Lee - not that he wasn't amazing. But you know, some people will claim that he INVENTED the punch and that he didn't die, just went back to his planet etc. etc.

Thanks for setting it straight, MattJ.

And sorry for the jab ( ), JKDWarrrior.
Posted by: GuitarNinja

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/04/06 01:46 AM

Bruces ignorance of the actual application of the chambered hand is what brought about his "breaking tradition" ... if he actually knew what it was used for then I doubt he would have dismissed it.
Posted by: Wosaw

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/04/06 01:47 AM

Good points and good questions jkdwarrior.

Quote:

I'm sure many people in the past would have noticied this also, but does anyone know why it didn't become the norm until very recently?



Well I really dont know, but my most logical explanation i can come up with is this. Ok Martial Arts has obviously been around a really long time, right. Well, styles are passed on and practiced, becoming the universal truth to most of those who practice it. I mean its like someone watching there dad practicing Karate, and all of a sudden they think its the best thing in the world (just an example dont get offended). Well thats passed on for generation to generation, and then they think there is nothing wrong with the style. If they lose to another person, they generally think its because they havent trained enough in the style they were taught. They wont think something is wrong with the style at all, and limit themselves to that thinking. But, back then im sure they noticed, thats why there are different styles, different ways of fighting, but due to tradition it never changes. Well nowadays, Im well aware of styles adding techniques and other things to themselves so I cant say it never changes, but you know what I mean. Other than that, some people in the past did notice, I remember reading something on historic M artist, and some of them (dont remember who) would change their styles or bla bla bla, you know what I mean. Now if you really think about it, back then you break away from tradition you are either cast out of killed. Example: in some countries they'd kill you for not believing in their religion back then. I'm not saying people died from not practicing a certain style lol (or maybe they did, i dont know). What im trying to say is, when you break away from tradition it generally gets someone in trouble, and people dont like it. Im just throwing ideas out there really, but im sure you know what I mean by now. So why can people point this out now? Probably because the world today is more understanding, tolerant, and more people are open minded. Well, thats what i think at least. I'd love to hear more input from other people on something like this.
Posted by: Wosaw

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/04/06 01:54 AM

Quote:

Bruces ignorance of the actual application of the chambered hand is what brought about his "breaking tradition" ... if he actually knew what it was used for then I doubt he would have dismissed it.



Umm, i could of sworn he got into a fight, won, and thought that it too long to beat the guy or something like that, and then started changing. I could be wrong, just wondering. Oh and everyone is ignorant one way or they other, bruce was just another human being so w/e lol.
Posted by: ShikataGaNai

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/04/06 01:59 AM

Well...
No. JKD has always been about progressing as a martial artist and I daresay it emphasizes combat techniques that are effective for self defense today. Keep in mind that although most JKD practitioners pay close attention to form, they will always choose function as their first priority.
Bruce, Dan and Larry were all well aware of chambering the fist, but this technique did not fit with their concept. Perhaps if one of those guys did regularly chamber it would have been worked into the curriculum (I guess it still could), but they had no use for it.
I'll admit it - I've learned forms and techniques that involve chambering and I don't get it! It's supposed to generate power and help keep your balance, right? Did Bruce have issues generating power? Have you ever tried fist-chambering techniques against an experienced boxer? As impressive as it is, I'll pass and keep that rear fist by my chin, thank you. I'm pretty sure Bruce felt the same way. Remember, these guys TESTED their techniques and they tried to absorb a little bit of everything. I doubt if ignorance played much of a part in their fighting method.
Posted by: Ayub

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/04/06 09:11 AM

I think the reason must lie in the way that martial arts were practiced before a few hundred years ago. I think there was much more respect payed to the arts, in the east. I guess if anyone tried to change their art they would be disrespecting their master. Furthermore, if anyone did manage to make some new theories they would probably be challenged and probably defeated by a more experienced traditionally embracing fighter.

Before a few hundred years ago the Western hand position was probably never witnessed in the East or very little to have any lightbulbs coming up over people's heads. They just stuck to what they knew in the East and never dared to question it.

People have become more questioning over the years, the 'Western way' became more widespread and it took someone with real skill to make the appropriate links and back up their theories IMO.
Posted by: jkdwarrior

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/04/06 10:03 AM

Quote:

It's supposed to generate power and help keep your balance, right? Did Bruce have issues generating power? Have you ever tried fist-chambering techniques against an experienced boxer?



One big difference between the traditional punch and the boxer's punch is the involvement of the legs. The traditional punch can't quite make up the power because it is thrown by rotating your body around the central line. As if you're attempting to spin yourself around a pole that is positioned down from the centre of your head and out through the groin.
The boxer's punch however, is thrown by rotating your body around the opposite hip and shoulder, kind of like slamming a door. The big advantage here is that the rear leg can give an almighty shove upon impact and push the punch right through the target. As Bruce said, the karate punch is like and iron bar, but the kung fu punch (or boxer's), is like an iron ball with a chain on it, and it hurts on the inside. I've felt both and i understand what he means. While a traditional karate punch may hurt a lot and can end fights in many situations, the boxer's punch can destroy anything in it's path.
The traditional punch can get involvement of both of the legs, but no where near the extent of the kung fu shot, which should feel as if you're leaping forward and slamming your whole body through the opponent, if you miss, it will feel as though you're arm is going to fly off in the direction of the punch because it has so much power. There is one little guy in my class, about 5ft 3 and 135, and he has this technique almost perfectly. He can hit like a train, it's hard to believe, i've seen him down fighters twice his size with one of these shots.
Posted by: ShikataGaNai

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/04/06 12:17 PM

Interesting. Although I favor the boxing style punch, which IMO draws from the core and has the advantage of putting your whole body behind it, I have been curious about the traditional. It just seems to me that most (this is just in my exp.) schools that teach the traditional way are going to put it to the test on boards and the schools that utilize the western technique test it on people. Not that one is better than the other, but as BL said "boards don't hit back", and I think that confirms my thinking that you should be able to keep your guard up when punching.
On a sidenote, the notion that "western" style boxing came from the west is very debatable. If you look at boxers way back in the day, they fought with their fists outstretched. Sometimes they did that silly swinging windup thing like popeye does. There is a common theory, esp in the kali/jkd circles that fighters in the phillipines, indonesia, malaysia, etc. introduced the western world to bobbing, weaving, ducking and keeping the guard up. So I guess in a sense, "western" style is more traditional than it is credited. There is a lot of detail written about this in Dan Inosanto's book about the FMA, if you can find it (it's out of print). Definitely makes for some enlightening reading.
Posted by: Wosaw

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/04/06 12:18 PM

Quote:

It's supposed to generate power and help keep your balance, right? Did Bruce have issues generating power? Have you ever tried fist-chambering techniques against an experienced boxer?



Well, I have a couple of videos displaying his skills, and I doubt he had issues generating power. His kicks and the infamous 1 inch power punch obviously shows that his power was there and packing. So, as far as I can see he had no real issue generating power.

I was gonna talk about the boxer's punch, but jkdwarrior practically has that down. But hey, if you wanna apply a chambered punch (hand) feel free to, I dont have any objections.
Posted by: ShikataGaNai

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/04/06 12:22 PM

Heh, neither does my right hook!
Posted by: MartialMack

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/04/06 03:23 PM

I don't know much about various militaries around the world, but I do know it's safe to say that at least the U.S., British and Israeli militaries didn't adhere to "tradition" some time before Bruce came along. "Combatives" have been around for a long time, and the work of Applegate and Fairbairn (Defendu) and Imi Lichtenfeld (Krav Maga) were pre-JKD examples (c. WWII) of "modifying" traditional styles and/or techniques into being simpler and more "combat effective."

I'm sure that Bruce was aware of this. But generally speaking, most of the public was not (case probably remains true even today). However, I think that Bruce took the idea of "breaking tradition" lightyears further. Said militaries taught combatives in a very closed manner to soldiers, but Bruce very openly and vocally challenged tradition, and in a very public way -- and had the talent, support and eloquence to back it up. Simply put, I think it got the whole international MA community to rethink combat and self-defence -- and how it also applied to civilians.

The real breakthrough I think is how he emphasized all combat ranges and the idea of "alive" training. Ultimately, this has leaked over into military training as well. I remember coming across an article about how, in the '70s, the Navy SEALs began to get into his concepts, so I think that even military combatives training has adopted a more "alive" approach. Proof of this would be Paul Vunak's training of SEAL Team Six in the early '90s. Paul, who studied with one of Lee's proteges, Dan Inosanto, taught them his version of JKD, now known as Progressive Fighting Systems.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/04/06 05:06 PM

To look at the importance of the Western boxing structure in fighting, take a look at how the full contact kickboxing of the 60's and early 70's evolved.

At first guys went in using a more traditional approach. Then various guys with boxing training took a look, and thought they could compete and be successful themselves. They went in and started knocking the more traditional guys out.

The more successful karate fighters (Bill Wallance, Joe Lewis, just to name a few) realized they needed to evolve and began incorporating the boxing structure with predictable success.

That's primarily because they went away from the more traditional structure and the use of lead arm blocking (particularly that of the elbow moving away from the body on defense).

-John
Posted by: otobeawanker

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/05/06 04:37 PM

I just want to say I really liked your post Ayub.
Posted by: Ayub

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/07/06 05:02 AM

Quote:

I just want to say I really liked your post Ayub.



Thank You Very Much!
Posted by: BuDoc

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/09/06 09:17 PM

Quote:

I suppose i'm kind of obliged to say here that it's the person, and not the style that determines the fight outcome blah blah blah, but like it or not, the MMA technique IS superior to that of the traditional styles. It's mathematical fact.



This is gonna be good! I happen to really apprecite JKD. I also happen to know a little something about TMA. And I also happen to know alittle about math and science.

What I am slowly learning about is faceless "Know-nothings" with Battleship mouths that can't defend their row boat a$$es!

So convince us, JKD scientist! I'd love to see that algorithm or logorithm. Your choice. I want to see your JKD proof. Maybe I'll put down 22 years of TMA.

Page
Posted by: ShikataGaNai

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/09/06 09:22 PM



So there's seriously no science in TMA? Isn't any WC that's worth it's salt all about science? I always hear them talking about trajectories, velocity, resistance, even friggin hydro physics (be like water!) I guess all that stuff was just religious mumbo jumbo and I didn't understand
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/09/06 09:31 PM

Guys-

The only "proof" that one can provide are the results that one can achieve.

I'm sure that you guys know my opinions on this whole thing but truthfully, no amount of arguing will "prove" anything.

We can DEBATE a topic and that's always good. But lets do so in as civil a manner as possible.


Thanks.


-John
Posted by: BuDoc

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/09/06 09:37 PM

Absolutely there is science. I consider myself a martial scientist.

I beleive if you read the original poster again, you will find that he claimed that JKD is mathematically provably superior to TMA.

I just want to see the math! Show me and we will all laugh together!

Page
Posted by: Wosaw

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/10/06 01:32 AM

The only things I do know is that JKD has been called one of the most scientific Martial arts. Can I prove that, not really, just saying what I've read and heard. What I do know is there was once a study that pitted a JKD practioner versus a karate practioner to see who had the stronger punch. Each person apparently had the same strength. Well the outcome was the JKD punch was stronger. As for TMA being scientific, there is a science to everything. Whether you guys wanna argue whats more scientific is up to you. There have been studies on MA styles, but unforunately I can't find them. If anyone does I'd love to see them though, and im not joking, I'd really like to see anything anyone can find.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/10/06 11:06 AM

Quote:

What I do know is there was once a study that pitted a JKD practioner versus a karate practioner to see who had the stronger punch. Each person apparently had the same strength. Well the outcome was the JKD punch was stronger.



I find this hard to believe. There are only good punches and bad punches. I have known some TMA people that could punch extremely hard. I would definitely need to see this study.
Posted by: Wosaw

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/12/06 02:19 PM

Well I tried finding this article/video, cause im not entirely sure where I might of seen this information. It was either a blackbelt magazine, an official MA article, or a discovery channel special. I did a little research but all I can really find are just forums, which kinda arent a creditable source. A JKD article
The link to the article says, "As early as 1969(?), Lee was scientifically comparing his techniques to those from other arts: an article that year documented the comparison of the Straight Lead Punch from JFJKD to the Rear Punch from Karate with quantifiable results" Well that still doesnt show the study, what was the quantifiable result (faster, stronger, ect) or tells exactly was in it, but thats the closest thing I could find. Yet, I'm pretty sure that wasnt the thing I got the info from. If I find whereever I got this from, I'll letcha know. Seriously though even if it might be stronger I still think you should do what works for you. Anyways, for now what I said isnt creditable, so maybe next time I should have some proof

Oh and btw MattJ, I didnt mean TMAs didnt have powerful punches lol. Cause any TMA guy who can break a board, brick, ect. with his fist ain't exactly got a soft punch.
Posted by: jkdwarrior

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/13/06 10:29 AM

Quote:

Absolutely there is science. I consider myself a martial scientist.

I beleive if you read the original poster again, you will find that he claimed that JKD is mathematically provably superior to TMA.

I just want to see the math! Show me and we will all laugh together!

Page



Ok, so I'm not gonna sit and work out a little equation for you but I say what I mean.

When you chamber a punch (to the head), it has to move a good foot further than the boxing punch. This, obviously will mean a loss of accuracy and speed. Like if you run 10 metres instead of running 5. You don't need to be a mathematical wizard to comprehend that it will take longer.
You bring the rear hand to the hip while your other hand is extended, this time it has to move something like four times as far to block a punch to the head as does a simple parry from near the chin.

Try this if you don't believe me. Have a partner throw mock punches at your head. Keep your hands by the side of your face and stop them. Next try the same drill with your hands by your hips. See that? Much harder AND slower.

I'm sure somebody could work out the actual maths of it if they wanted to, and I'm sure it's probably been done, but it's not really necessary as the vast majority who have studied both techniques can just plainly see it.

By the way, that smirk on your face says a lot more about you than it does me.
Posted by: jkdwarrior

Re: Breaking tradition - 05/13/06 10:37 AM

Quote:

What I am slowly learning about is faceless "Know-nothings" with Battleship mouths that can't defend their row boat a$$es!




I just want to point out that whilst I consider myself a "good" MAist, my post has absolutely nothing to do with my skill level. I'm not gonna start arguing about who would win. That kind of closed mindedness is one of the reasons why TMA is stuck in that same old rut.
Posted by: SmithNWessonDo

Re: Breaking tradition - 06/13/06 12:19 PM

Someone's fist made a connection with the side of another person's head. The person hit fell over, hit the other side of his head on the ground and died after having a severe concussion. Someone who saw the attacker land his blow said it was done in a really fast manner, most likely in a certain stylized fashion, but in a way he wasn't familiar with. The witness got into a big discussion with his martial arts buddy about whether the killer punch was traditional martial arts or "progressive" mixed martial arts. After arguing for a good couple of hours, both parties heard a loud bang and a bullet pierced the skull of the martial artist and he immediately fell down dead. Was the bullet that hit the martial artist fired in a traditional way or a progressive way? Quite frankly, who cares? Two people were killed.