JKD influenced by TKD?

Taison, perhaps you would be interested in some facts about Bruce Lee. He was originally very impressed with gung fu, and wrote about how he felt (at the time) it was the supreme form of martial art, the forerunner of arts like jujitsu and karate. This is verified in his book "Chinese Gung Fu the Philosophical Art of Self Defense" as well as a thesis about gung fu he wrote during school in Seattle. It is available in current books and on-line, you can do some research on it. Bruce also spoke well of gung fu in his filmed interview/screen test for the Green Hornet show. According to Bruce Lee's first students (Jesse Glover, Ed Hart, Leroy Garcia, Skip Ellsworth, Taky Kimura, Jim Demile, and others) Bruce taught them forms and techniques from a variety of gung fu styles in addition to wing chun, although wing chun was his core art. They did these forms in photographed Seattle demonstrations in the early 1960s. He originally felt that forms held the key to gung fu mastery, but later completely changed his opinion about forms and classical gung fu. If you haven't seen the 1964 film of Bruce doing a form with high kicks at the Long Beach tournament (prior to creation of jkd), then you don't know what you are talking about. Bruce did high gung fu kicks, but originally didn't think they were effective for combat. According to his his first student and assistant instructor Jesse Glover, Bruce really developed his side kick after seeing Nishiyama's kick control at Long Beach. Bruce had bad ankles but eventually learned to hold his side kick extended and apply it with explosive force. According to Norris and Rhee they did share opinions about high kicks with Bruce, I am sure he considered their opinions. He later developed effective high kicks. He still stated to his students that ultimately, hands were superior to kicks in an actual fight. Students like Dan Inosanto have stated that the kicks Bruce developed later were applied differently than in tae kwon do. Also different than most wing chun side kicks because of his ankle problems. Most wing chun practitioners do a sort of 45 degree side kick (exhibited in the dummy form.) Leung Ting wing tsun practitioners sometimes exhibit a karate/tae kwon do style side kick. If you would like some accurate information about Lee, you should go to his students. Jesse Glover wrote an excellent book entitled "Bruce Lee Between Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do" which is very helpful and discredits some of the misinformation about Bruce that goes around. Best wishes.

Am I correct in my thought that BL originally studied the rudiments of Tai Chi? It would seem strange that a person who studied in form based training such as traditional WC, TC etc would dispense with them automatically when he started teaching (meaning he didn't).

Anyway, certain styles of TC also contain kicks, including a quite high crescent kick in some forms.

From my reading. Bruce Lee learned Tai Chi under his dad. He later went on to learn Wing Chun under Yip Man but his instruction in the art was mostly learned directly under his senior Wong Shun Leung. He also studied Northern kung fu styles from other people, which do have high/flashy type kicks.

I'm sure that Chuck Norris (Tang Soo Do) and Jhoon Rhee (Tae Kwon Do), both Korean trained martial artist also influenced Bruce Lee in training above the waist kicks. Many of which he showcased in his films.

Although, from a fighting standpoint Bruce Lee felt that kicks should be kept below the waist. He also stated that he desired to be able to kick to any target if he needed to. But since the subject of the topic is "JKD influenced by TKD". I would have to say no.

JKD's kicks, as taught by most OBLS' are still kept below the waist. They're not teaching jump spinning hook kicks in their classes, like in TKD. In JKD it's all about simplicity and non-telegraphic techniques. JKD kicks aren't even chambered like they are in Karate or TKD. So to state that TKD had an influence on JKD is incorrect. They may have had an influence on Bruce Lee learning a few more above the waist kicks that he didn't already have from Northern Kung Fu styles but they were primarily used for movie purposes and didn't influence his art of JKD.

That is a very interesting and informative reply, thanks.

Apparently Lee also studied Savate according to Jesse Glover

and he studied tam tui. a chinese art that solely concentrates on kicking.

Did he study formally under a qualified instructor or did he study it from a book he bought? I mean his library on MA and health books is legendary. Books that are no longer in print but written by some real experts back in the day.

Here is a link with info on Tam Tui -

http://www.chin-woo.com/whatis.html

oh thanks guys, i just thought you guys forgot to mention it.

AMP -

Yes, "most".

I wish I could find the list. Bruce Lee supposedly wrought JKD out of 26 different martial arts, with the majority (16-18?) being Chinese. Paul Vunak has mentioned them before in interviews, and had them posted in some of his old ads, but I can't seem to find them. If I find the list, I will post it.

However, if you and Taison are refering to the relative amount of weight given to a given art in the JKD "syllabus", then I would agree that the non-Chinese arts (with the exception of Wing Chun) were held in somewhat higher regard by BL.

I am still very skeptical of TKD's influence on JKD.

I don't think any of us can backtrack and read Bruce Lee's mind about the different arts he infused into JKD. One of his students, Larry Hartsell, lives in Charlotte, about 100 miles from me, and when it's convenient to visit him, I'll ask him about it.

From watching what Bruce Lee did in his movies, a lot of what people think are "spin kicks" aren't, and from watching his technique in films, I would seriously doubt if TKD had much of an influence. I studied TKD with an Asian champion in it, and not much of what Bruce Lee did looks like anything we did, other than kicking high.

Wasn't referring to race. Billy Hong was Korean. He was all-Asian Tae Kwon Do champion in 1966 and 67. Asian, as in the continent...

wing chun is chinese, tam tui is chinese as well he learned another martial arts from a chinese master that i seem to have forgotten, but yes MOST was chinese arts, with some Western philosophy and technique.