JKD and Thai Boxing

Posted by: pvina

JKD and Thai Boxing - 05/04/05 11:48 PM

Hi,

I'm new to martial arts and am interested in Jeet Kun Do. I signed up for a "blended" martial arts class that claims to be in the spirit of JKD at the Degerberg acadamy in Chicago, but the classes are based more in Thai boxing than Chinese arts. I've read some of Bruce Lee's notes on Thai Boxing though, with such statements as "uppercut almost nonexistant, left jab is poor, hook is inadequate" and am wondering what the differences are in the basic styles. I'm not talking about which way is "better, I'd just like to know the physiological differences in the basic punches between the Chinese and Thai styles. Could anyone explain Lee's disdain for Thai punching?

Thanks
Posted by: Laughing Dingo

Re: JKD and Thai Boxing - 05/05/05 07:52 AM

Bruce's critique of Thai Boxing punches is lifted directly from a book called Asian Fighting Arts by Draeger and Smith. Who knows if Bruce really had much knowledge of thai boxing at the time he wrote that. His drawing of thai techniques are traced from pictures in that book too. I'm sure thai boxing has progressed further in its punching skills since the 60's. Bruce Lee's JKD didn't have much if anything to do with thai boxing, it is Dan Inosanto that started relating thai boxing with concepts of JKD. JKD punches are more refined and delivered in a manner that utilizes optimum power.
Posted by: Bryagh

Re: JKD and Thai Boxing - 05/06/05 03:40 AM

Thai Boxing really has nothing to do with JKD. The styles really couldn't be more different. Concept JKD people, like the school you mentioned just throw the JKD in there to attract people, and teach nothing that Bruce did.
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: JKD and Thai Boxing - 05/07/05 03:41 AM

Actually, I believe Thai Boxing and JKD work well together. And Thai Boxing is a part of the JKD curriculum in most schools. Whether or not it had uppercuts and hooks then is irrelevant. The question is, does it now contain those things? Yes it does and it uses them quite well as well as other effective techniques. The focus shouldnt be on what Bruce did or didnt know but what the person you seek instruction from knows.
Posted by: Laughing Dingo

Re: JKD and Thai Boxing - 05/07/05 10:04 AM

Why does JKD need any of thai boxing, JKD already has a full arsenal of punches, kicks, elbows, and knees.
Posted by: jkdwarrior

Re: JKD and Thai Boxing - 05/07/05 01:37 PM

I'm guessing that the jkd in the course is just a way to lure you into the class. If you're doing muay thai, then you aren't really using jkd concepts (although some concepts do overlap). I would advise you to do a bit of reading on the subject, (tao of jkd is good). The class may well use some jkd concepts but in leaving out essentials such as the bil jee, and "dirty fighting" you may come up short in your defence on the street.
Posted by: Fogg

Re: JKD and Thai Boxing - 08/17/05 11:35 AM

Quote:

I'm guessing that the jkd in the course is just a way to lure you into the class



Degerberg student here. The brochure states that the "Blend" (the name for Degerberg's system) is closely aligned with the spirit of JKD, not that it is JKD. That is, a MMA approach. I know that Degerberg and his instructor were working on integrating different arts together before the JKD article in Black Belt magazine (I recall Degerberg telling a class that they read the article and said, "hey, someone else has got the same idea we do! We must be on to something"), so they were contemporaneous with Bruce.

As for whether or not it's a deceptive marketing practice, I couldn't say, but it's certainly not represented as JKD. To be sure, there is a Jun Fan class and several JKD practiotioners routinely stop by to present seminars.

As for the Muay Thai punches, I understand that they consider the fists and feet to be the weakest of their nine weapons (feet, knees, fists, elbows, head) and work more on "softening up" opponents with shin kicks before closing and using knees/elbows.

I suppose that doesn't answer why Bruce didn't like them although hopefully that will help.
Posted by: Neonomide

Re: JKD and Thai Boxing - 08/17/05 08:27 PM

Quote:

Bruce's critique of Thai Boxing punches is lifted directly from a book called Asian Fighting Arts by Draeger and Smith. Who knows if Bruce really had much knowledge of thai boxing at the time he wrote that. His drawing of thai techniques are traced from pictures in that book too. I'm sure thai boxing has progressed further in its punching skills since the 60's. Bruce Lee's JKD didn't have much if anything to do with thai boxing, it is Dan Inosanto that started relating thai boxing with concepts of JKD. JKD punches are more refined and delivered in a manner that utilizes optimum power.


Several stuntsmen from Big Boss have stated in interviews that Lee had a few challenges from thai boxers while a film shoot in Thailand. Some say Lee commented that "one could see a thai kick from a mile away".

This, unlike his other reported "off camera" film fights are perhaps not so much baloney, because the stuntmen there were not professionals. Many of them were part time gangsters and full time street fighters, who knew MT, not how to do stunts. Lee called to producers raymond Chow and stated that the way the action they shot was limited, so they brought more HK stuntmen there and even changed the director to Lo Wei. I bet there were some MT people there who wouldn't just take orders from a guy who A: had actually a replacement star there in case Lee blows his first asian filmrole in 15 years, and B: in knowledge that Lee and film crew were actually one of the first ones to film any foreign action film in Thailand. One popular story is that he dropped one MT guy who was in the film team and people were mesmerized. But I think this has some to to with Lee's MA appeal, he was known to be a very social and friendly guy on the set for all sorts of people. The important thing is that he wrote Tao of JKD BEFORE this, so above statemens of his lesser knowledge on MT are pretty realistic. If you are into knowing exactly HIS knowledge on MT.

We live in a different world now. In the Bruce Lee era it wasn't so common to see people do MT as it is nowadays, I presume. So because the frame is different, the conclusions would be different too.

Inosanto seems to be rather much into Muay Thai. He says it is great for conditioning, for example.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: JKD and Thai Boxing - 08/17/05 09:04 PM

Quote:

Why does JKD need any of thai boxing, JKD already has a full arsenal of punches, kicks, elbows, and knees.



Lets remember that punches, kicks, elbows and knees are JUST, kicks, punches, elbows and knees.

Just because an elbow is found in JKD and another is found in muay THAI, does NOT really make them any different. That goes for almost everything.

So in that sense, it doesn't truly matter WHAT you train, so long as it's trained functionally. Muay Thai is. "JKD" often isn't.

-John
Posted by: butterfly

Re: JKD and Thai Boxing - 08/17/05 10:14 PM

John,

Functional training....Amen Bro!

-B
Posted by: otobeawanker

Re: JKD and Thai Boxing - 08/18/05 06:34 AM

One may train in an art not to use it, but instead learn how it is used by ones opponent.