Confused about JKD???

Posted by: Kataman23

Confused about JKD??? - 05/04/05 12:04 PM

I really am not into the whole JKD thing, but it got my interest and I started reading on it. After reading different articles from different persons I am very confused about the whole thing and wonder if it just was a move by Bruce Lee to seperate himself from everyone and stand out, or to remain a mystery. Some say JKD is just about Krishnamurti's philosophy . They say Bruce kind of lost it with the whole Krishnamurti thing, got away from his originl methods and turned off some guys he used to instruct. Thoughts on the true JKD??? Thank You.


My true intersts however are traditionl MA.


Kataman23
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/04/05 05:41 PM

People are the problem with JKD. It's really a very simple philosophy made much more complex by people, for various reasons.

Krishnamurti was about nothing but the quest for truth - exactly what JKD is all about.

May I ask why your interests are with "traditional" martial arts? Isn't fighting, fighting and training, training? If not, WHY not?


-John
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/04/05 07:50 PM

Nice post, JKogas.

JKD is really simple, to the point that people think they must be "missing something". Then they try to add complexity where none exists, and makes it murky.

There may have been some commercial motive in the name JKD, but I really think BL was just trying to use his fame to get notariety for his concepts. Great concepts, but his fame blinded most everyone that attempted to look at the "system".

Most ended up just robotically aping the specific arts BL studied, instead of finding their own way - exactly what BL did not want.
Posted by: etaks86

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/06/05 11:29 AM

I agree that jkd is simple focusing on simplicity and being adaptive and instinctive like you natural are to begin with until you allow your instincts to be disrupted by to many movements that are not at all simple and that have very little application purpose in real life fighting.
Posted by: Kataman23

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/06/05 11:54 AM

I think Jeet Kune Do was named because Bruce Lee had interception in mind. Try to intercept whenever possible. Too many defensive movements are the main mistake of most persons who do this art.


When you think about it INTERCEPTION is the most efficient. That's what Bruce Lee's philosophy was to be efficient.



I've considered this carefullly and now I have done away with my Katas, as I see now they are useless and not efficient. I probably should switch my name now
Posted by: etaks86

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/06/05 12:33 PM

yes i agree with you. there are to many moves in the triditional arts that are not effective in fighting. It seems that people are tricked into thinking that these methods or styles can make you able to be some master's master that no one can beat. I think movies play a large role in this by this i mean the whole master teaching student traditional martial art that will make him impervious to any fighter. I also think that jkd was also bruce lee's way of trying to eventrully stop this process of ineffective methods and styles.
Posted by: Ace

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/08/05 07:21 AM

From Bruce lees own words, he named it the intercepting fist because he believed never to defend, only counter attack... get it? hes interecpting any attack thrown at him... makes sense. The problem with JKD when people wish to learn it is that they go there wishing to learn a complete style, but the problem was JKD was never completed, and was never probably meant to be completed, as a good style is one that adapts to its environment. But, people who say they will teach you JKD are BS artists, its the ones who say they will teach you JKD CONCEPT that know what they are on about, just a bit of info for you...
Posted by: Kataman23

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/08/05 09:06 AM

It's interesting to note that Bruce Lee, the man himself, NEVER EVER used the word concept.




Posted by: SANCHIN31

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/08/05 09:14 AM

First:
"My true intersts however are traditionl MA"

Then:
"I've considered this carefullly and now I have done away with my Katas, as I see now they are useless and not efficient. I probably should switch my name now"

Flip flopper!! You really are confused!! If you don't want to do kata,don't do kata!! Woopeedo!! Kata's are far from useless though.
Posted by: Kataman23

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/08/05 09:44 AM

For MA they might be usefull, but for self defense they are definitely not efficient nor useful. They have nothing to do with defending yourself against a live and resisiting opponent. I have one word SPAR.


Try your Katas out in a biker bar and see where it gets you.
Posted by: Ace

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/09/05 07:49 AM

No, bruce did use the word concept, just not in direct refernce to JK, which proves already that you think my arguement was soley about what he himself said... you would note that on may occasions he did say he is still formulating the style and bringing together its ideas (concepts) that he wishes to incoperate... pity his dead, or we wouldnt be having this arguement. basically what i was tying to say is that because how JKD is practised depends on the person, you cant be taught exactly how to do something, but merely the diffrent reasons behind why you would do it that way.
Posted by: Ace

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/09/05 07:51 AM

and sparing is not a realistic simulation of fighting, as in most styles you do not try to drive through and destroy the opponent, but merely take point shots and try out tecniques
Posted by: Kataman23

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/09/05 09:07 AM

No, the fact remains Bruce Lee DID NOT EVER use the word concept when referring to JKD when he spoke or in his writings.

Concept is an Inosanto word, NOT the man himself, Bruce Lee, the creator.


I AGREEE with you on sparring. You're right . Most sparring ESPECIALLY "TRADITIONL STYLE MA SPARRING" doesn't adequately simulate real life.It's just fantasy. If you get protective gear though and spar in a "JKD, non traditionl way " then you can better simulate real life contact.


Bruce Lee, the creator said this and I qoute " Learn the principle, abide by the principle, then dissolve the principle" - THIS IS JKD.
Posted by: SANCHIN31

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/10/05 01:40 AM

For a name like kataman you know nothing about kata.

"try your katas in a biker bar."

good grief.
Posted by: Ace

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/10/05 05:24 AM

sorry, just watched 'lost' inteveiw with Bruce, and he does use word concept.... and here are dictionary meanings, not exactly the same i admit, but both refer to generaliusations about objects/ides/other, which was what i was trying to get across.... your basically argueing for the point of it arent you? by the way... i hadnt even heard of guru Dan Isanato(spelling m,ay be wrong) therefore how could i qoute him...? And would nbot all principels start off as concepts?..... No?
The noun concept
Meaning #1: an abstract or general idea inferred or derived from specific instances
The noun principle
Meaning #1: a basic generalization that is accepted as true and that can be used as a basis for reasoning or conduct
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/10/05 07:08 AM

Quote:

and sparing is not a realistic simulation of fighting, as in most styles you do not try to drive through and destroy the opponent, but merely take point shots and try out tecniques




Don't know about you, but I try and knock my opponent OUT on occassion. Wouldn't I do that on the street?

What's better, hard sparring or PRETEND training?


-John
Posted by: Ace

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/10/05 07:31 AM

yeh KO is the way to go, but many schools dicourage this as.... they lose customers who dont like getting knocked out, and it is a job for lots of people. but to answer your question, i like HARDEST sparing, as im not into letting my opponent attack me more than necesary, so i like to take him out of the picture... but this has nothing to do with being confused about JKD so.....
Posted by: Bodiharma

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/10/05 07:55 AM

JKD is best suited for people that have a good grounding in a martial art and had learnt some forms or kata's, alot of people move onto JKD, few people start on JKD, or so im led to belive.

What I dont understand is how you can just 'do' JKD without prior training or understanding of structure and forms.

Does it use forms?
Posted by: Ace

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/10/05 08:00 AM

dont think so
Posted by: Bodiharma

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/10/05 08:07 AM

Bruce did wing chun, the first form, second, and the wooden dummy form, so its easy for him to say: "there is no form, forget everything" because he can, he's learnt something which he can then forget, like walking and breathing, blinking, etc.

back to the point i made a minute ago though, does JKD teach you basic wing chun then just apply a philosophy to it?

or is it Bruce Lee's interpretation of Wing Chun Kuen?
Posted by: Ace

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/10/05 08:35 AM

No, wing chn is fairly diffrent from JKD and already has its own philosophy, hence there would be no reason to copy a style and call it something else because it incoperates new ideas. He was trying to make a style that anyone could learn, and for them to utilize techniques that worked for them, as such it is not exactly a science, unlike wing chun. It is not bruces interpretion of any style in particular, but fighting in general. If you wish to gain an insight into hes ideas about it, watch 'Bruce Lee, the lost interveiw" it offers a better level of insight into what his philosophys on fighting were and what JKD is moreso than i can say here.
Posted by: Bodiharma

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/10/05 09:22 AM

but wing chun focuses on the fight itself more than the style, when you start off you learn basic techniques footwork etc, then you learn how to apply them to an acuall fight situation (like most martial arts), no pulling of punches, no set pattern, just precise and acurate punching and trapping. this can take a few years too achive, but is essential to street conflict.

Does anyone know if Chi Sau is used in JKD?
Posted by: Ace

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/10/05 09:32 AM

look below...., Personally i like wing chun as a style more anyway, i just believe it taught me alot more of alot more useful stuff, but could you enlighten me to what you like most about the style (open question) as im not sure what any unique elements they might incoperate would be
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/10/05 09:33 AM

We do Chi Sao at my JKD school occasionally. We also do pummeling (for JKogas!).
Posted by: Bodiharma

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/10/05 09:37 AM

single hand, or double? do you use Chor Ma (Chi Sau for feet) or Chi Na (for grappling)

Tai Chi has 'pushing hands'

do most arts have a sensitivity drill or tool?
Posted by: Ace

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/10/05 09:39 AM

Hubad is a sensitivity drill, would trapping hands count? From a CQC style. Chin Na isnt really Chi Sau though, its it's own whole style.
Posted by: Bodiharma

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/10/05 09:44 AM

Quote:

Hubad is a sensitivity drill, would trapping hands count? From a CQC style. Chin Na isnt really Chi Sau though, its it's own whole style.




Chi Na is for locks holds and grappling, it apply's the same theory of Chi Sau and Chor Ma, using sensitivity to react to an opponet

trapping is different, you can learn how people react to certain locks and holds, and you can teach your hands to react the instant they feel contact, but it can only go so far.

hubad? CQC?
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/10/05 10:49 AM

Bodiharma -

We usually do single hand Chi Sao (both sides, of course). We have done double hand a few times, and Chor Ma once or twice.

We use a BJJ based groundfighting program.
Posted by: Ace

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/11/05 04:05 AM

CQC-close quarter combat... Hubad- opponent feads a right habd hammer strike to kneck, you block, pass,pin to chest, then you feed attack. Speed it up and then insert a diffrent attack to see if opponent can naturally react. not at all like che sau really, but still a sensitivety drill. Chin Na has other aspects to it as well though....
Posted by: Bodiharma

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/11/05 04:59 AM

that donest seem like sensitivity training, more of a blocking drill.
Posted by: Ace

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/11/05 06:42 AM

No, its sensitivity, because its all very fast and you must notice the smallest changes to be able to block in time. It is used in Kali i believe, and would be classed as a sensitivity drill by most instructors. It isnt rea;lly like what it sounds like, but thats probably the only way to explain it without showing you.
Posted by: Bodiharma

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/11/05 07:26 AM

i think i know what you mean now, theres a drill like that called bong sau/lop sau drill, its more of a timing / co-ordination drill, yet it does train sensitivity as well

very useful!
Posted by: etaks86

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/11/05 04:49 PM

in my own opinion. i do not think that it's simply bruce lee's interpretation of wing chun kuen i believe it's bruce lee's interpretation of him self and his own way of fighting that other people could learn from and maybe have a better understanding of how to fight or just a guide to improve your way of fighting. also he was just helping people to understand how to be like the nature of water in a fight or life. you know to adapt and be instinctive in nature, the way you are until styles and programing and reprograming disrupt the natural process of your mind and body as a whole , eventrully slowing your reaction time down and limiting your mind or better yet constructing restriction a box and chains to bind your self in and, refrain you from being your true self in a fight. anyway if anyone does not believe this way like me then don't be offended i'm just speaking my opinon on the matter. also since i am natural and move where ever god and my instincts take me then i guess the mind is always in a mode of a adaptive state when it comes to someone's opinon's, what is my opinon today could become your's tomorrow or a month from now or years from now and what i now think will eventrully change at least to some degree because people's opinon's and thought's are like the wind, today they blow against you but tomorrow they may be your friend. when i say this i just mean that the way people think is always changing with every fact and or event that happens in life may change your current train of thought.
Posted by: etaks86

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/11/05 05:01 PM

yes i agree with you the sensitivity trainging that is used in jkd it seems more like drills but it really trains you both in the drills and your sensitivity.
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/14/05 04:39 AM

What Bruce's JKD was shouldnt dictate what yours becomes. Bruce, at his best, was using Wing Chun and western boxing combined with a small working knowledge of Muay Thai and TKD. Consider that now most JKD guy use the boxing and Muay Thai and skip the other two. Bruces footwork, such as seen on film, was really just a mockery of Ali. He was largely biased to Wing Chun due to his longtime involvement in it meanwhile preaching the whole time to others to let go of biased thought processes. He was also biased to flashy tkd style kicking due to his involvement with Joon Rhee. When he passed, he left JKD a very incomplete system. Most likely on purpose. This way the student would, in theory, be free from tradition and find his own path, and now his path has nearly become tradition.
Posted by: Fluid_Motion

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/14/05 02:50 PM

huh? JKD - WC, B, Fencing primarily. incomplete? NO
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/14/05 10:36 PM

Incomplete if thats all you are doing, yes. Most of WC has been dropped from the curriculum as well as alot of the fencing ideas. WC,Boxing, Fencing- wheres the ground game at? You need more than that. Thats the reason JKD was left as it was. Bruce was done writing about JKD before he passed. He didnt want to leave a definate path for people to follow so that eventually they would create their own. His books and commentarie werent about the path but the destination
Posted by: etaks86

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/15/05 06:11 AM

yes i think one of lee's idea's in my opinon is that he wanted people's jkd to be their own and not like his. i think that he didn't want people doing his art the same as him because jkd it's self i think has alot to do with being yourself and not just copying someones moves. because if you just copy what lee did then your going against what jkd stands for which i think is nature ( the state of being natural or in jkd the state of being yourself ), adaptive ( to change in order to improve your state and or to survive), instinct ( to punch,block,kick,evade or act without thought- or to attack, defend, or evade in reaction to anothers action without thought being processed ). i know these are not the way alot of people would define these words but i think that maybe this is close to how these words should be applied in jkd. anyway since noone is the same then the way you fight should fit your needs and who you are. the truth is, is that people can not be other people they can only be who they are. so if you try to be someone else or try to get their moves just right, it will not work good for you because it's not you. it's unnatural to try to copy something that just is not you and since it's not part of who you are it will never work well for you. anyway the main idea behide jkd is to be yourself, take what you already know about fighting and add, when you need more and when you need less subtract, to keep improving yourself and your way of fighting to add what works for you and to substract what does not work for you. somewhere in all of this adding and substracting you will grow more into yourself as a martial artist. so that's all from me for the moment so peace and i hope everyone has a good day.
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/15/05 12:49 PM

Not bad at all.

Too many people worry about what Bruce did or didnt do. Are you Bruce? Do you train nearly as fervently as Bruce did? Are you in the same physical shape as Bruce and just as fast as him too?

Do you own thing. It'll prove to be much more effective.
Posted by: etaks86

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/15/05 08:39 PM

thanks it feels good to find people that share some of the same opinons i have on jkd and other subjects. so peace to all.
Posted by: Rumble

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/20/05 07:03 AM

In my opinion JKD is more of a concept then a style.

ABSORB WHAT IS USEFUL
REJECT WHAT IS USELESS
ADD WHAT IS ESSENTIAL YOUR OWN

Also another advice my Sifu gave me was its not the art or concept that makes the person its the person that makes the art,concept or whatever you want to call it.
Posted by: etaks86

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/23/05 10:51 AM

yes i agree. but i don't really call things concepts because it shouldn't be a concept it's how people are natural in their life anyway people absorb what they feel is useful to them and reject what they don't think is useful to them so it's just saying to do what people have always naturally done anyway it just applies it to martial arts which it's already how you are in life so just be your self in martial arts the same as you are in life, i mean if someone watched tv or read a book explaining how to do something the person would naturally absord the useful and reject what is useless to them it's just saying to be how you natural are anyway.
Posted by: Rumble

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/23/05 05:17 PM

A concept is like a abstract idea or theory. The reason why Bruce Lee stresses this alot is because other styles tend to make there art or style become law like the gospel truth in which you cannot change that technique because its been passed down from generation to generation. Alot of students in different arts or styles will believe this as truth and not have the knowledge or confidence to challege there masters beliefs in what works for them and doesnt work for them and will absorb both the good with the bad and not be willing to challenge that concept or theory.
Posted by: etaks86

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/23/05 08:28 PM

yes i know i just don't call it a concept. if i were alive when tai chi was made up i would have called that an concept because it's not natural or instinctive, i don't call jkd a concept because it's about being natural and instinctive and adaptive which is how people are by nature. i'm not saying that it's wrong to call it a concept because it's not but to me it's just not a word i would use to explain jkd.
Posted by: etaks86

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 05/31/05 10:19 PM

I think i would like to add more to this topic of jkd. To me jeet kuen do was bruce lee's expression of himself. And also maybe he closed his school's because he saw that people were not expressing their self but only doing what lee did. Also he was showing people that traditional martial arts should not be the end all be all. He was not only shareing the chinese culture with people in his own way he was also showing people that martial arts should be about the process not the product. people now days have become the product of those who sell pretty movements that may have worked well at one time but now are complex and stale. for something to work well it must be simple. for example a knife is not pretty and is not complex it does what it was made for, and it does it very well. for example the pulley one of the greatest inventions ever and yet look how simple it is, the simplicity of it's design is why it works so well and will always be used until the end of this world. martial arts are the same, i'm not saying that it is wrong to learn martial forms all i'm saying is only use what is basic and simple from the art the rest is just a waste of energy. In other words i'm not saying not to learn some forms i'm just saying only keep from those forms that which will work for you in real life fights. that is if your training for self defence reasons. anyway i hope my opinons do not offend because they shouldn't everyone does not think the same and you should not be offended if someone does not agree with you. peace
Posted by: Chief

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 06/06/05 05:46 PM

I think the concept of finding ones own way and not following Buddha, or Krishnamurti or Bruce Lee is as outworn as the very thing it warns against. It sounds cool but ultimately we all need help getting there, which is why we seek their teaching. I am learning JKD and so far its all drill and repetitive practice. Without it I think if I were unleashed on an opponent it would be the combative equivalent of my personal life without the benefits of spirituality: I may not be a perfect human being but Id be a damned sight worse without it. In other words left to my own devices Id get my arse kicked 9 times out of 10.
Posted by: trevek

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 06/11/05 07:23 AM

Katas and "dissolving the principle". Surely that is a good illustration. Of course you aint gonna start doing a kata in a biker bar (why is it always the poor bikers who have to get tested) but you'll find, on reflection, that you used part of a kata (technique,focus, speed etc) in your application. You probably weren't aware of it at the time.
You'd absorbed the principal through ages of training and dissolved it so it spread through you and appeared when you needed it, almost instinctively.

If your trad art doesn't have a technique you feel you need then find it and incorporate it into your arsenal... this is what wise MAists have always done. JKD is just a philosophy of what has always been done by those who are aware of what they need.

Incidentally, review your ideas of kata. What is a phase 4 if it isn't kata? What is shadow boxing if it isn't free-form kata.
Posted by: etaks86

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 06/14/05 03:27 AM

well i'm not going to go in to a chat about people's path and all that but for the records i believe in and let jesus guide me in life. i let bruce lee's words guide me own how to make myself more effective in a fight.
Posted by: trevek

Re: Confused about JKD??? - 06/14/05 05:09 AM

I wonder if biker forums have quotes like, "Huh, try riding your Harley in a karate school and see where it gets you..."