Croos-training

OK, I know that it is not always a good idea to just take 4 different kinds of martial art instead of taking one class that teaches it all. But not every town has JKD school, and I was wondering what styles worked well together. Currently I am involved in HKD freestyle wrestling and TKD, and I was wondering if dropping a style and adding boxing or another style would be a good idea, or what styles to try and look for. Also what would be a good way of trying to combine these styles?

Ideally if you train this way you want a specific style for a specific range. Say Savate/TKD=kicking Range
Boxing= Punching Range/close Range
Wing Chun/Snake= Trapping Range
Judo/Jujitsu=ground Range

You want to take the techniques from each and put it into your unique fighting appoach. Thus makeing your own JKD. But at the same time you dont want to be limited by any one system thus remaining free to study others as you see fit. No one art teaches it all it dont matter if its JKD, TKd, Karate etc. Personally I chose one base are and studied different arts to add and expand my base art, but still I can switch to any system I've studied to adapt.

If you have boxing available to you, Id say drop the tkd and go box instead. Better footwork and "stance". It will give you a good standup game to start out with, and you can have a decent ground game as well. Then later, if you want to do kicks and things try Muay Thai. If you dont have boxing available then go for Muay Thai, Wing Chun, or Jujitsu.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AgenT:
No one art teaches it all[/QUOTE]


why are people convinced that no one art teaches it all?

Not meaning to pick but i can name a few that teach everything but gun slinging! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

No one art teaches you how to counter all forms of violence. There is simply to much. Just because a art teaches all ranges and maybe some weapons no matter how physicaly effective still dont solve the problem of violence, violence is a disease ppl just cause it to adapt by just treating the symtoms. There are still several factors like: psychology-both yours and attackers, avoidance, criminal mindset, rape prevention, tactical shooting, realistic knife and gun defense. evironment-how effective will you combatives be if you have to fight on ice?, tort laws,self-defense laws. physiology-such as how to counter the adrenalin dump. The list goes on and on if you have a cure all art that teaches all these thing satisfactory(by that I mean simple realistic approach)then by all means post it on this thread so I can switch of to it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

why are people convinced that no one art teaches it all?

Not meaning to pick but i can name a few that teach everything but gun slinging! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

If there IS "one art" that teaches it all -- it would be seen as MMA.

So yes, there IS in fact, one art that teaches "it all".


-John

I'm curious, How so. How do you see MMA as containing it all.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AgenT:
I'm curious, How so. How do you see MMA as containing it all.[/QUOTE]

MMA "contains it all" in the unarmed context.

Then MMA is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure it would be fine if the streettrat isnt stacking the deck, and they will stack the deck, because surviving is their only concern other then screwing you up. If so then the fighter can quickly find themselves on the wrong end of a blade or pumped full of lead. Realistic training requires far more then hand to hand Skills While mma would be a good place to learn basic skills. Those skills have to change drastically if a weapon is introduced. And a skilled REAL fighter wont give you a chance to use what you know, They are very good at getting you in a bad position.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AgenT:
Then MMA is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure it would be fine if the streettrat isnt stacking the deck, and they will stack the deck, because surviving is their only concern other then screwing you up. If so then the fighter can quickly find themselves on the wrong end of a blade or pumped full of lead. Realistic training requires far more then hand to hand Skills While mma would be a good place to learn basic skills. Those skills have to change drastically if a weapon is introduced. And a skilled REAL fighter wont give you a chance to use what you know, They are very good at getting you in a bad position.[/QUOTE]

So add some FMA stick-and-knife work to the repertoire, then.

The Filipino arts have retained their functionality, in regards to the use of weapons, which is a comparatively rare thing these days. When it comes to weapons use, most styles have been reduced to what is essentially performance art.


[This message has been edited by Armed_Man_Piker (edited 11-08-2004).]

Funny this topic came up, because I've been meaning to raise it.
I've made it my business over the years to cross train whenever I can. The thought hit me with a start a couple of days ago that I haven't done so in about a year. So, with a little extra cash in my pocket (Wonder how long THAT will last!), and some of you having piqued my curiosity (Chen & Kogas), I've been looking around for a JKD school worthy of the name. Since I'm mistrustful of self- styled "Masters", I thought to get it straight from the horse's mouth on who's worth it. I'm in the Kendall area of Miami, Fl., but am willing to travel around town to train, so long as it's reasonable. Any of you have anyone in my area you'd recommend?
To John Kogas: I know about the Straight Blast Gym fellow up in Pembroke Pines. Unfortunately, he isn't practical. Not only the distance, but the traffic is such (Miami has the "honor" of being ranked as the third most congested city in the U.S.) that by the time I reached him after work, training would be over. And by the time I made it back, it'd be time to go back to work!! So, can you think of anyone else?

[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 11-08-2004).]

I have trained in FMA,sadly to say I wouldnt trust those arts as far as I could throw the instructors. Most the blade arts assume you will be able to draw your own weapon. They train you to be a knifefighter. There is no such thing. I'm just saying most FMA styles I've seen dont show you how to deal with a psychopath that will do a drive by on you. or wait somewhere hidden with 6 of his friends armed with baseballbats. Those people arent there to fight they are there to kill you. FMA wont save you unless you are willing to go to that extreme which is beyond training in the first place.

[This message has been edited by AgenT (edited 11-09-2004).]

AgenT,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AgenT:
I have trained in FMA,sadly to say I wouldnt trust those arts as far as I could throw the instructors. Most the blade arts assume you will be able to draw your own weapon. They train you to be a knifefighter. There is no such thing.[/QUOTE]

First of all, the Filipino arts don't "assume you will be able to draw your own weapon"--emphasis is simply placed on the skilled use of the knife because the Filipinos do indeed have a distinct "blade culture" (as well as the "knife fighters" who define that culture). Unarmed defenses are taught as well, but we all know that such techniques are very much a last resort. They generally won't work against a trained knife fighter.

[QUOTE]I'm just saying most FMA styles I've seen dont show you how to deal with a psychopath that will do a drive by on you. or wait somewhere hidden with 6 of his friends armed with baseballbats. Those people arent there to fight they are there to kill you. FMA wont save you unless you are willing to go to that extreme which is beyond training in the first place.[/QUOTE]

You are offering scenarios for which no martial art has satisfactory answers to, so singling out FMA is both unfair and misleading. I could do the same thing--you can train in any art you want, but if you're set upon by a crew of determined skinheads, no technique is going to help you deal with the so-called "dance of skin" (aka the "boot party"). Having a weapon on you (or obtaining an improvised one) may help even up the odds, but facing multiple attackers is a daunting prospect for anyone, and the chances of success are questionable at best.

Peace,

A_M_P

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AgenT:
I'm curious, How so. How do you see MMA as containing it all.[/QUOTE]

Its limited only by ones imagination.

People often confuse MMA with a competitive sport. It is that, but it's also HOW you train. It's one tool in the toolbag. To do any less than MMA is unrealistic.

And yes, MMA can include weapons. Groups like the Dog Brothers in LA are but one example of this.

How do YOU train?


-John

Those situations are the type you will encounter how then do you counter them,thats the reality of living in the street you want to counter you avoid even then thats no assurence that they wont come looking for you, they will. I'm not singling out FMA I can give several examples of the weaknesses of other arts including the systems I study. No art is perfect most of those knife defenses wouldnt work against a untrained fighter let alone someone who knows how to use a blade. MMA doesnt teach you how to counter someone doing a drive by on you, or someone ready to blow you head off from 20 feet away because you maddogged him(dont think it happens it does), for those thinking I would shoot him, that gun may not stop them in most cases they could still kill you before the damage takes its toll . Dealing with how I train, It not a matter of my training I have been there I have lived that life I have the training I need but I will say I train with full intensity non stop and i dont train against things that will not happen in real life, while I respect the Martial arts for all the benifits they can reward one. Most systems even military systems are unsuited for real combatives.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AgenT:
Those situations are the type you will encounter how then do you counter them,thats the reality of living in the street you want to counter you avoid even then thats no assurence that they wont come looking for you, they will. I'm not singling out FMA I can give several examples of the weaknesses of other arts including the systems I study. No art is perfect most of those knife defenses wouldnt work against a untrained fighter let alone someone who knows how to use a blade. [/QUOTE]

I’m quite sorry, but I don’t have the energy or wherewithal to decipher your post here. Could you please be a little clearer about what you’re trying to say here? I just don’t want to put words in your mouth.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AgenT:

MMA doesnt teach you how to counter someone doing a drive by on you, or someone ready to blow you head off from 20 feet away because you maddogged him [/QUOTE]

What martial art DOES teach this?

Want to know a counter to a drive by? Don’t put yourself in harms way. Live by the sword and die by it as well. I don’t need martial arts to understand how to avoid violence. If I’m in a gang, dealing, slinging or whatnot, I’m only asking for trouble. It’s a matter of waking up with fleas because of the dogs I decided to lie down with – if you get my meaning. How you live is often a determining factor in how you die.

Common sense is actually better for survival in most cases than is the study of martial arts. Regrettably, that’s not all that common. I mean, if I have to go “hands on” with someone, it’s likely because I really screwed up somewhere along the way.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by AgenT:

… for those thinking I would shoot him, that gun may not stop them in most cases they could still kill you before the damage takes its toll.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t know….half a dozen or so hollow-point nines will drop about anyone.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AgenT:

Dealing with how I train, It not a matter of my training I have been there I have lived that life I have the training I need but I will say I train with full intensity non stop and i dont train against things that will not happen in real life, while I respect the Martial arts for all the benifits they can reward one. Most systems even military systems are unsuited for real combatives.[/QUOTE]

That still really doesn’t do a lot to truly explain HOW you ‘train’.


Take care,

-John




[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 11-10-2004).]

I will try to be clearer. Its difficult to describle how I train. I try to add as many unpredictable variables to my physical training as I can like for example my sparring may start one on one but end up in a few minutes a 3 on one with weapons,I also train in different environments as well as things like having someone attack me but not let me know they have a knife which they bring into play. Its always full contact and as erratic and chaotic as I can make it to overwhelm the senses and simulate the stress of real combat I also have the people I train with attack me when they think I wont be expecting it. On the other hand I also train verbal de escalation skills, and situational awarness and use a coding system similier to military. When I teach to other people I start with avoidance/awarness skills, verbal skils, I ususally use a force continum to explain and drill the legal levels of force, I teach extensivly the laws and other legal aspects. I hope this clears some aspects up like I said its hard to describe how I train. The gun thing is true it will stop them what I was saying though is it may not stop them in time assuming you can even draw it.

[This message has been edited by AgenT (edited 11-11-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Christiancadet:
OK, I know that it is not always a good idea to just take 4 different kinds of martial art instead of taking one class that teaches it all. But not every town has JKD school, and I was wondering what styles worked well together. Currently I am involved in HKD freestyle wrestling and TKD, and I was wondering if dropping a style and adding boxing or another style would be a good idea, or what styles to try and look for. Also what would be a good way of trying to combine these styles?[/QUOTE]

I would continue working the wrestling. That’s always a good idea, providing you remember to not roll to your stomach in a real fight to escape/defend from the bottom. I think you probably realize that already though.

I would seriously work to find a boxing club if possible and drop the TKD. No offense to TKD guys, but the training in many TKD schools just isn’t realistic. The contact is very limited and they don’t often focus on developing one’s “hand skills” to a high level (read, boxing).

Wrestling, boxing or any other “style” which emphasizes throwing boxing-style punches and combinations (like muay Thai for example) would be great if possible.

I know how location factors into what’s available however. That’s the main reason I started my gym here in Winston-Salem – there was nothing available BUT TKD schools for the longest time.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by AgenT:
I will try to be clearer. Its difficult to describle how I train. I try to add as many unpredictable variables to my physical training as I can like for example my sparring may start one on one but end up in a few minutes a 3 on one with weapons,
[/QUOTE]

That’s sort of like the way PFS (Progressive Fighting Systems) guys train. That’s actually pretty good providing that the resistance is real. I like that sort of training as well. It’s a good test of your ability to quickly execute and move at the same time.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AgenT:

I also train in different environments as well as things like having someone attack me but not let me know they have a knife which they bring into play.
[/QUOTE]

That’s fun! We train using an approach called STAB. It can start out the same way (partner begins empty handed and is allowed to bring a knife into play, etc.). That’s pretty cool as well. We’ve not been doing that lately as much as we should. But I’m of the belief that it’s almost ALWAYS better to constantly refine the basics of empty hand stuff, in order to develop the fundamental athletic ability to “fight”. Once a person can do that, you can improvise pretty much every other scenario. The reason being is because, plans change on contact and circumstances dictate tactics/strategy, but the underlying delivery systems never change. In other words, there is ALWAYS a right way to throw a jab and a bunch of wrong ways. Whether you choose to throw that jab or run screaming into the night is a matter of strategy and tactics, lol.

The STAB program is something I like a lot and is “good stuff” for real street situations involving blades or blunt instruments. You can incorporate different scenarios and whatever else you want to incorporate into it as well, although I don’t get to heavily involved in that stuff myself (although I do agree that training on different surfaces is actually a pretty good idea…)

One thing I was taught was to always keep my focus on a persons hands during the pre-fight stage (while maintaining critical distance). That way if you see his hands disappear for even a second, you can blast him quick and hard.


Good luck!


-John

All knowlege is useful. Learn everythuing you can about every style you can, and you will be a more well-rounded fighter.

"Savate/TKD=kicking Range
Boxing= Punching Range/close Range
Wing Chun/Snake= Trapping Range
Judo/Jujitsu=ground Range"

Exactly, try to fill in every aspect of combat. Mine goes like this though instead:

Wu Ji/Shaolin=kicking range
Jing Chuan/=Punching range
Chin Na/San Shou Kuai Jiao=Trapping range
Shuai Chiao/Chin Na/Eagle's claw=ground range
Northern Shaolin=weapons

If you were into the Japanese arts, it would probably look more like this:

Karate=kicking
Karate=punching
Aikido=trapping
Jujutsu=ground

The more you know about other styles, the better you will know your opponent. Read lots of books, lol.

[QUOTE]MAGon wrote:

I'm in the Kendall area of Miami, Fl., but am willing to travel around town to train, so long as it's reasonable. Any of you have anyone in my area you'd recommend?
[/QUOTE]

Check out this link (hopefully it will work) and see if anything is nearby:
http://www.google.com/local?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=jeet+kune+do&near=Kendall,+FL&oi=localr

Seems like you have a fair amount to chose from around you.

[QUOTE]MAGon wrote:
To John Kogas: I know about the Straight Blast Gym fellow up in Pembroke Pines. Unfortunately, he isn't practical...

..can you think of anyone else?
[/QUOTE]

That would be Luis Gutierrez. Even though it might not be practical for you, you might try going by on occassion for some privates or to attend a seminar! It would be worth your while.

Fletch who is around this forum on occassion is around there as well if I'm not mistaken. I believe he's an SBG guy as well and, he's a graduate of their ISR program (please correct me if I'm wrong Fletch..)

Good luck! Keep in touch. If you're ever my way, come on by!


Thanks

-John

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
That would be Luis Gutierrez. Even though it might not be practical for you, you might try going by on occassion for some privates or to attend a seminar! It would be worth your while. [/QUOTE]

10- 4, will do.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Fletch who is around this forum on occassion is around there as well if I'm not mistaken. I believe he's an SBG guy as well and, he's a graduate of their ISR program (please correct me if I'm wrong Fletch..)[/QUOTE]

How about you, Fletch?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Good luck! Keep in touch. If you're ever my way, come on by!


Thanks

-John[/QUOTE]

Count on it, big guy, and thanks for the feedback.



[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 11-12-2004).]

Anytime my brudda

Thanks Kogas and Chen despite the 21 replies you two were the first to be on subject. thx.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Christiancadet:
Thanks Kogas and Chen despite the 21 replies you two were the first to be on subject. thx.[/QUOTE]

lol


You're not new here but I gotta say, "Welcome to the forum kid!"


-John

No problem.

Learning lot's of styles is all well and good but you have to be careful not to accumulate so much knowlege that when the time comes to use it you get everything confusrd and cant pull any techniques on time and then get beaten up or worse.
Just a thought.

The individual that just posted is right. Make sure you have a definite direction in terms of way of fighting. You indeed have to know yourself; that is know your body, know what mentality you want to adopt in terms of attack / defense. Also be sure that when you do train something that you'll come away with some principles that will guide you. Lastly keep it down to a few physical tools.

Christiancadet,
I would say you are on the right track for well roundness but get a good basis in one art before jumping around too much. I started with TKD but if you are taking HKD then you would get all the kicking you need plus trapping and finishing skills, so I would drop the TKD. Find a boxing or kickboxing school. I believe you live near coastal VA from what I saw on a post elsewhere and there are lots of good kickboxing out there. Kenpo would also give good hand skills. I'm sure there's BJJ out there in some form or another. And one good self defense style not mentioned much around here is krav maga. It teaches good reactions to common situations. Of course any of the original arts to JKD such as Wing Chun or Kali are beneficial as well. All I can say is good luck in your journey and I'm jealous of all this time (and $) you have to spend on your passion. I do good to get out once a week anymore between 2 jobs and a family, so get it while you can.

The only downside to all of those good Kickboxing schools is that they have all made the decision not to start up in small towns like mine.

Christiancadet -

Where do you live?

Uh-huh, a strange old man wanting to get a minor to reveal where he live over the internet? Could have sworn they tell kids not to do this. Suffolk.

Suffolk isn't too far from the Naval bases and ship yards. Where there are military bases or universities, diverse martial arts schools can be found. Check out your map of VA. Two years ago I was leaving work in Danville and driving to Lynchburg to work as an instructor in a chain of schools there. I did this 6 days a week for 5 months. I know you are in school (H.S. I presume) but don't know if you are old enough to drive. If not, well that would explain your travel limitations. By the way, what is available to you in say a 30 mile radius that you know of. This shouldn't take you much more than 30 to 45 minutes to get there.

In my area TKD and HKD at one school, and Ishin Ryu karate at another. Thats it. Somebody was going to open a Pankration school but that turned to nothing. I am Seventeen on the the seventeenth, but I cant afford the insurance tha comes with a licence.

IMO you should stay with the TKD/HKD school. I'm not saying this because I'm a BB in TKD but because I'm also a BB in HKD and a brown belt in Okinawan karate. There are so many similarities between the TKD and karate that it's not worth the extra fees to study karate one place and HKD in another. Does your school have a wrestling program? If so that would give you a basis for your ground game. Long before the days of UFC, we knew a good H.S. wrestler was a force to reckon with in a fight. Back in my school days I saw good wrestlers take down all kinds of fighters.

NOt only does my school have a wrestling team, I'm on it. I'm Varsity, and I said so in my first post. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

This sort of relates to cross-training (or lack thereof). How many people here DON'T do it (e.g. have only trained in one art)? I'm Just curious.