Thinking on your feet.

Posted by: Chen Zen

Thinking on your feet. - 10/09/04 11:45 PM

In a lot of previous threads many members here often argued that one could not think on his feet and make decisions while fighting. That you could not recognize skill or technique outside of its trejectory.

I think this is flawed. I believe that mental awareness in the face of danger is as desirable to a fighter as a strong offense.

A fighter of skill bases the fight off of his opponent. When his opponent lets his defense slip the fighter takes the open shot. He stays on the offensive until the opponent forces him to take the defensive. When the opponent steps back the fighter presses him harder. All decisions were based upon the opponent. When this is true then though must be possible when fighting. This is the way skilled fighters fight. Nothing is left to chance. Fighting based solely upon instinct and reflex is dangerous. You find yourself resorting to a few favorite techniques. Before long your running around in circles trying anything you can just to make a hit or keep from getting hit. Once you realize whats happening you've become overwhelmed.

A skilled fighter also recognizes skill in the opponent. He doesnt rush blindly. He watches things like footwork, rythm, speed, technique, stance. He guages his opponent by body language. He notices the demeanor of his opponent. Is he scared? Is he nervous? Is he fighting in rage? All things can be taken in to account and manipulated for the skilled fighters advantage.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/10/04 08:36 AM

I think what generally happens is, the "fog of war" inhibits the thinking process. Not to say that there still isn't some thought going on, but the rational mind is (can be) fairly impaired. This depends on how far into the conflict you've gotten though. Most of the time you can maintain a clear head BEFORE anything goes down. Afterward though, it's ON and you're just flowing and reacting.


-John
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/10/04 04:40 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
I think what generally happens is, the "fog of war" inhibits the thinking process. Not to say that there still isn't some thought going on, but the rational mind is (can be) fairly impaired. This depends on how far into the conflict you've gotten though. Most of the time you can maintain a clear head BEFORE anything goes down. Afterward though, it's ON and you're just flowing and reacting.


-John
[/QUOTE]
Yes but it is possible to remain calm WHILE engaged with the opponent. When calm there is no fog; just action and reaction based on a decision by you to utilize what technique may be correctly applied to the situation at hand.
Posted by: MuayThai

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/10/04 07:02 PM

I think ultimately experience teaches you how to react. Returning to a situation you have been in countless times before will generally help you to feel what will usually happen next, this will develop your "relaxed" approach to fighting. Experience develops instinct instinct promotes clarity and complete control control help you as a fighter to be relaxed and continue, as john says, "flowing and reacting."

Its a beautiful site to see when you watch two very seasoned and experience fighters going at it, they make it look almost poetic, they exude absolute control and their muscles show little tension, they are relaxed, focused, thinking yet not thinking, reacting without thinking about reacting but thinking about what next to do after the reaction.... that is experience.

thinking too much about doing clouds what you should be really thinking about, what you should be doing after the counter or attack!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/10/04 11:14 PM

The post below actually appears in another forum.....(my post) but it also fit's this dicussion...I'm not sure on the rule of double posting but I thought that this is a similar topic and my response is the same to both threads.....

Very interesting topic.....here's my 2 cents guys......

I think we should also take the adrenal dump into consideration......it's not easy to think or produce an intricate technique during an adrenal dump......also.....the whole encounter will be over in less than 15 seconds in the street.....not much think time....

If we look at the techniques we know as a large catalogue stored in our subconscious..... in my opinion...there is no point in trying to visualise every technique or the whole catalogue at once.....(thinking about it) .... this will only serve to confuse you.......

Rather than visualising the whole catalogue of techniques....I prefer to think of nothing.....my muscle memory (or instinct) will naturally flip through my catalogue of techniques to find one that fits the situation.....I hope this make sense....this is how my mind works.....

Also, under the adrenal dump.....my subconscious will choose a technique that is "do-able"...automatically........and all of this happens in a space of a few seconds.....if we overly think about a technique....it's not always going to be the right one....
For example....If I have a pre conceived idea that I want to perform a low round kick.....but I get charged while I'm actioning it......I'm on the back foot and off balance......if I have no preconceived technique...I'll be reacting to the charge.....and I will be able to evade and counter.....I'm not hampered by my thought of executing a low round kick....

So in my opinion.....I would not think in a street encounter.....especially when my muscle memory or instinct will do the thinking for me.....and my instinct will probably choose a better technique from my catalogue than me.....

In a ring fight....sure think about it...strategise...this is a controlled environment where the other person as agreed to fighting using the same rules as you......

Humbly
The Wolf




[This message has been edited by The Wolf (edited 10-10-2004).]
Posted by: MuayThai

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/11/04 05:47 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:
In a ring fight....sure think about it...strategise...this is a controlled environment where the other person as agreed to fighting using the same rules as you......[/QUOTE]

so you're saying there is a difference between street and ring in regards to "strategising" not the route taken but actually strategising, in a street encounter you are basicly saying you dont strategise. Thats bull mate, sorry to be so blunt. Any fight I am ever in I think aboiut what I will lead to, I will think abotu how to defeat whoever it is in front of me, I wont think too much about what I will be doing in that exact moment but more what i will be doing later or what i will be aiming to do.

I suppose you will never really know until you come against a fighter who strategises, the man who fights with strategy and "cleverness" will almost always beat the dumb, aimless fighter.

You must strategise, ring and street differ only because of rules are different. There are rules on the street, think about it, if you are fighting someone and his mate pops out then the rule of thumb is not to go to the ground! that is a rule, it can be broken but when it gets broken instead of you being penalised you will be sent to hospital... there are rules in every conflict be it at war or terrorism. Street and ring differe because on the street you dont have a choice who your opponent will be, well technically you do, you dont have docotors present, you have rest periods... a street fight usually doesnt last past a few minutes, thankfully. The Wolf, I really dont know what kind of guy you are but soemtimes you make very wise comments and then ridiculously ignorant ones.... strange, maybe we're all prone to a little of that.


I have alwasy said a fighter is a fighter in a ring or not, it does not matter!!! Ring or street will not remove the fact that a fighter knows how to fight, you can be totally trained in the art of Destructo but if you have not got what the other man in front of you has inside his heart you will feel the confrontation even if he hasnt a baldy about the technicality of fighting. Do not disalusion yourself in thinking that simply cos you train in dirty techniques or not for sport than then you are a badd ass... some day my friend you will meet a real baddass and he will thump you and before you even realise he has no formal training in anything it will be too late!

be humble and accept that there are fighters and there are not. Your training will not mean a thing if you ahve not got what it takes to fight in teh first place....

....now the major difference between street and ring is this, in the ring you KNOW that your opponent is a fighter in his heart and that also means that you are also that kind of person. Think about it.
Posted by: MAGon

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/11/04 06:48 AM

Guys: I posted this in Chen's twin thread in the "Martial Arts Talk" forum. I don't want to be repetitive, but some of you whose opinions I respect seem to have gravitated to this one. So I thought that "If the mountain won't come to"...
Anyway, here's my two cents worth:

Glad you took me up on this, buddy! As you can see, it's not just me. Others agree it's a good one to discuss.
I was looking forward to you doing this and, in my quietly obssesive way, I've been thinking about since yesterday afternoon. Maybe too much of a good thing, because were I to put it all down in one post, it'd be a mile long, would bore folks to death and would kill the thread. So I think I'll refrain from being a smart@$$ and comment as others enter the discussion.
For now, let me say that in my experience thought DOES come into play in a fight. But it's not linear, logical thought (Thinking in words, e.g.: His right foot is forward and he's let it come too close to mine, so I think I'll kick/ sweep it so I can unbalance him, then... etc.). Trying to do this is too slow, therefore won't work and will get you killed.
What happens, in my case, is that IF I leave my mind blank (Mushin in the Japanese MAs) and IF there's the slightest pause in the action, images will flash in my mind of the best options/ techniques for the way the opponent is standing/ behaving, from which my mind "grabs" the one that "feels" best, and just executes it. The closest I can come to describing it is that it's as if someone was projecting slides very rapidly and using the opponent as a screen (I hope this makes sense), then a feeling of "Aha!!!" and immediately explosive action. This is probably the subconcious mind, set free by the suspension of linear thought, and allowed to roam at high speed through your past EXPERIENCES. From those, it chooses the ones that apply and presents them as the "slide show" I describe, then executes the one it feels is most appropriate. This is how MY mind works, and one of the reasons I encouraged Chen to start this thread was to see if it was just me, or it happened to us all.
Note, though, that for this to happen and work, there needs to be pause, a halt in the action or, even if action is taking place, it's either repetitive or a very familiar(Such as delivering a flurry of punches, or executing a favorite combination), which translates into mental "time" in which the mind catches up with the action. It proves impossible, at least to me, to "pay attention to the slide show" if I'm reacting to a fast moving opponent.
Now, is this thought? It would depend, I guess, on what you consider thought to be. If thinking is defined as logical thought only (Which is what Ch'an/ Zen philosophy does, as I understand it), then what I describe isn't thought at all. But if you take thought to be ANY form of mental feedback with a basis in reality, then I think this qualifies.
I hope at least some of this makes sense!!!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/11/04 07:56 PM

Hi all

Muay Thai

Thanks for your comments....
I personally believe that there is a definite difference in "strategising" in a ring as compared to the street.
The main factor for this is TIME.... You generally have more time to "think" in the ring...there are "rounds"....and "breaks" you also have a second opinion and a second set of eyes in your corner.....
In the street, the only strategy possible...is a "pre programmed response".....there's no time to think.....my response is to restrain in the street.....this is my only plan.....
I haven't got time to "shape up" the opponent.....I haven't got time to figure out a reoccurring pattern in his fighting.....I haven't got time to "view" his movement by dancing around a ring....

This is my humble opinion....
Thank you for mentioning that some of my comments are "wise".
But about this term "ignorant".....I've noticed that you use this often....and it seems to be when anyone disagrees with your view.....I'm not sure if you've grasped this yet....but....people can and will have a different perception to you.....and they're entitled to it....this does not make them "ignorant"...... this is not "being blunt" as you put it....it's very disrespectful and unwarranted...
There is a touch of arrogance in your speech...maybe that's the fighter in you.....
but is there a need to be soooo rude?

It's all about perception
The Wolf
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/12/04 01:08 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:
Hi all

Muay Thai

Thanks for your comments....
I personally believe that there is a definite difference in "strategising" in a ring as compared to the street.
The main factor for this is TIME.... You generally have more time to "think" in the ring...there are "rounds"....and "breaks" you also have a second opinion and a second set of eyes in your corner.....
In the street, the only strategy possible...is a "pre programmed response".....there's no time to think.....my response is to restrain in the street.....this is my only plan.....
I haven't got time to "shape up" the opponent.....I haven't got time to figure out a reoccurring pattern in his fighting.....I haven't got time to "view" his movement by dancing around a ring...
[/QUOTE]

Yes but a skilled opponent wont be taken so fast or so easily. Sizing up the opponent isnt an endurance trail in mental strength. Certain things simply have to be noted. Size, speed, and footwork. These three things are easily assessed and can tell you much about the opponent. From there the opponent is engaged.

Acting simply on reflex is folly. Suppose you spar alot and you react to a front kick by blocking downwards and countering. This has become your reflex, your instinct. Now you fight a skilled opponent and he throws a front kick at you. You block and he throws another. The third time he is waiting for it and you didnt even realize that you were doing the same tired technique because you werent thinking.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/12/04 04:12 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Yes but it is possible to remain calm WHILE engaged with the opponent. When calm there is no fog; just action and reaction based on a decision by you to utilize what technique may be correctly applied to the situation at hand.

[/QUOTE]

Sure it is possible to remain calm, because at the moment that the fight is engaged, you're "in the water and having to swim". If you have trained to swim by actually swimming (so to speak), then your body will react as it should. It's when you've trained to swim by means other than actual swimming (such as swimming kata) that you'll go to pieces in the real event.

Once in the event of swimming, there is no time to think (which is the thing that causes the problems), there's only time to react.

It's the standing on the diving board while glaring down at the water that causes the anxiety (pre-fight experience). Dealing with this is easy also -- prepare for the event by actually DOING what it is you're there to do (training to fight, with people who are fighting you BACK -- actual competitive training, sparring and fighting).


-John




[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 10-12-2004).]
Posted by: MuayThai

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/12/04 10:14 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:
Hi all

Muay Thai

Thanks for your comments....
I personally believe that there is a definite difference in "strategising" in a ring as compared to the street.
The main factor for this is TIME.... You generally have more time to "think" in the ring...there are "rounds"....and "breaks" you also have a second opinion and a second set of eyes in your corner.....
In the street, the only strategy possible...is a "pre programmed response".....there's no time to think.....my response is to restrain in the street.....this is my only plan.....
I haven't got time to "shape up" the opponent.....I haven't got time to figure out a reoccurring pattern in his fighting.....I haven't got time to "view" his movement by dancing around a ring....

This is my humble opinion....
Thank you for mentioning that some of my comments are "wise".
But about this term "ignorant".....I've noticed that you use this often....and it seems to be when anyone disagrees with your view.....I'm not sure if you've grasped this yet....but....people can and will have a different perception to you.....and they're entitled to it....this does not make them "ignorant"...... this is not "being blunt" as you put it....it's very disrespectful and unwarranted...
There is a touch of arrogance in your speech...maybe that's the fighter in you.....
but is there a need to be soooo rude?

It's all about perception
The Wolf
[/QUOTE]

Listen mate, not meaning to blow me own trumpet here or anything but what you gota understand is this... I know from my own experiences, and believe me, I am not simply jumping on the "I live in a rough neighbourhood so I know" bandwagon. I know because I lived that very life, I know because I fought on an almost weekly basis for absolutely no other reason other than ego. I know because I have knowledge of ring and street strategy and there is no major difference. when you fight you fight using your head, you thgink what you are aiming to do and you react and counter react while alwasy staying a couple of steps ahead, or at least this si what you aim to do. This is the strategy of fighting not sport or street but simply fighting full stop.

You are completely misunderstand what a ring fighter knows and what he actually does. A ring fighter is not some stupid guy who only thinks one way, thats utter bull and yes it is very ignorant to think so and if I sound arrogant then so be it [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] A ring fighter knows the art of fighting, that is he knows how to strategically fight in different situations because his experience has taught him that. For example, a ring fighter who knows his weakness will try to avoid them if at all possible.... understand, he wont simply fight the same way all the time. A ring fighter in my opinion would take most martial artists who have never fought.

I will not stand there in a bar when someone hits me and then chose to fight like I do in a competition, what makes you think I or any ring fighter will do that? Complete ignorance is what that is. Muscle memory, yep that exactly what a good fighter doesnt rely on, he relys on his "wit". Wit is the best weapon a fighter can have, Faking and strategising in ANY fight is what wins fights, ussing your experience and "wit" is what wins fights. I know because my friend I have been there and I hate blowing my own trumpet but it has to be done. It amazes me that there ar estill many many martial artists who havnt a cxlue about fighting. There are guys I know who have never set foot inside a dojo or a boxing gym and walk through most MA's I have met, without a problem. It scalled experience and wit two things that cannot be taught to you they MUST be experienced. The safest way to build experience and develop your fighting "wit" is by safely fighting, this is where sport fighting comes into play.

Now Wolf, I mean no disrespect to you and you can think what you want about me, but mate fighting is the only way one will get better at fighting, how you gain this fighting experience doesnt really matter so long as you gain it. If you want to be good at fighting the you gotta fight, so what do you do? Go looking a fight every weekend or fight in a competitive arena? There are only so many convictions you can get before you get locked up and only so many times luck will be on your side on the "street", at least in a ring I know that I am safe and I know if anyone is seriously hurt there wont be some charges placed on myhead.

Strategy changes with every fight, EVERY fight has a different strategy why do you still think that a ring fighter wont be able to think a new stretgy for this new fight he finds himself in??? what makes you think a ring fighter is lost without ropes and a ref?

[This message has been edited by MuayThai (edited 10-12-2004).]
Posted by: MuayThai

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/12/04 10:21 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:
Hi all

Muay Thai

Thanks for your comments....
I personally believe that there is a definite difference in "strategising" in a ring as compared to the street.
The main factor for this is TIME.... You generally have more time to "think" in the ring...there are "rounds"....and "breaks" you also have a second opinion and a second set of eyes in your corner.....
In the street, the only strategy possible...is a "pre programmed response".....there's no time to think.....my response is to restrain in the street.....this is my only plan.....
I haven't got time to "shape up" the opponent.....I haven't got time to figure out a reoccurring pattern in his fighting.....I haven't got time to "view" his movement by dancing around a ring....

This is my humble opinion....
Thank you for mentioning that some of my comments are "wise".
But about this term "ignorant".....I've noticed that you use this often....and it seems to be when anyone disagrees with your view.....I'm not sure if you've grasped this yet....but....people can and will have a different perception to you.....and they're entitled to it....this does not make them "ignorant"...... this is not "being blunt" as you put it....it's very disrespectful and unwarranted...
There is a touch of arrogance in your speech...maybe that's the fighter in you.....
but is there a need to be soooo rude?

It's all about perception
The Wolf
[/QUOTE]


Another thing, the videos I posted. There are some of fighters called Buakaw, Dekkers, Silvia... these guys are ring fighters, would you say you could take these guys out on teh street...

....mate, come out of this way of thinking and realise the benifits of ring fighting.
Posted by: MuayThai

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/12/04 10:26 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:

Acting simply on reflex is folly. Suppose you spar alot and you react to a front kick by blocking downwards and countering. This has become your reflex, your instinct. Now you fight a skilled opponent and he throws a front kick at you. You block and he throws another. The third time he is waiting for it and you didnt even realize that you were doing the same tired technique because you werent thinking.
[/QUOTE]


Chen bloody Zen!!! EXACTLY! That is my exact point and this is exactly what we as sport fighters are taught, this is the philosophy behind fighting. No set patterns, nothing, learning quickly what your opponent is capable of doing and capitalising on that. A good fighter does this in seconds not minutes, he doesnt need minutes or rounds. This is fighting, relying on muscle memory will get your arse handed to you by someone using their wit and experience becaus emusckle memory is what novice fighters basicly rely on because their "wit" and capability of thinking during a fight drops to ZERO, lack of experience.

Good comments Chen, I must say.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/12/04 07:34 PM

Hi all

Muay Thai....I can see that you are very passionate about the ring.....I can appreciate this.
Let me just mention again that I spar myself on occasion...and I am trained by a former WKA champion (He fought Muay Thai and was the Chief instructor for Muay Thai in our system as well)....please don't assume that I have never jumped into the ring !!!!


Just to answer your question......if I was to come up against any of the fighters that you mentioned.....it would be a dire situation that's for sure......(I'd be in big trouble... ha ha ha)...however.....one thing that I can definitely confirm is that I wouldn't be kickboxing with them in the street !!!!!
Why would I choose to fight them in the way that has them at an advantage......I would be looking to restrain and submit (break) as quickly as possible....maybe taking it to ground to give me a level playing field...maybe using the GET system if I was really in trouble.....over in 15 secs...either me or them!!!!

Can I just clarify that I don't want to "learn how to fight"....fighting takes too long....and I'm not getting any younger.....I want to learn how to protect myself....
The lure of the ring faded with me while I was in my 20's......now I look for other things in my MA....but ultimately I look to finish an encounter in the quickest possible time....basically.....my assailant throws something.....and I control it and finish it quick.....no rounds....no ref......no points....

There is a difference between sport and reality in my opinion.....

The Wolf
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/12/04 10:11 PM

BTW

I totally agree with John K on this one...

The Wolf
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/12/04 11:18 PM

No time to think John? How would you know that the technique being used is the best technique or even the proper technique without thought? One should always be thinking about what happens next and what happens if that fails.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/13/04 12:37 AM

Hi Chen

I think John is right here.....not so much in a ring fight...but in a street encounter...there's not much time for thought.... most of the encounter is governed by instinct.....

Picture this....a flurry of punches and kicks coming at you hard and fast from a bigger and angry agressor.....now keep this onslaught going in your mind for 10 seconds.....

What did you think about....my guess is survival...not specifically any technique...this is the way I work anyway..

The Wolf
Posted by: MuayThai

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/13/04 06:13 AM

The Wolf, then mate I am sorry to say you are completely disallusioned... completely.

You will get your ass handed to you by a comepetant ring fighter.

Let me give you a prime example. A mate of mine moved here, Belfast, from Manchester UK. He was in the British Army and never had a Martial Art lesson in his life, he was however a good "boxer" who also fought for the army. This guy is small, 5.5ft a good 65kg, pretty nice fella. His accent got him into a major problem one time(it is Ireland after all and he is English) and guess where this problem was? yep you guessed it it was on the dreaded street. He lost the tip of his little finger in this encounter and got repeatedly stabbed by a knife but he was one against something like 6-9 people. He smashed many faces and did a cracking job of defending himself using nothing but his punching, ultimately he ended up in hosptial but the fact remains, some of those guys were also nursing wounds caused by his skills.

This man I would have absolute confidence in competantly defending himself against most Martial Artists.

You talk utter nonsense when it comes to fighting for real. JohnK is actually saying EXACTLY what I am saying, we both understand that you must strategise in any fight but think sharp and we both understand that fighting (testing) is of upmost importance if you wanna get better at fighting.

You say WKA this and you have fought, I dont know mate it seems to me you have had limited experience with fighting, that may sound very arrogant. [QUOTE]I can see that you are very passionate about the ring[/QUOTE] I am very passionate about whats right for fighting and ring fighting whether you agree or not has more positive effects on your fighting ability than not doing it.

I find it VERY hard to believe what you are saying because I have seen with my own eyes and experienced with my own blood that a sport trained fighter can handle himself (or herself) quite competantly.

Now that is generally speaking, obviously life isnt that smooth.

[QUOTE]Why would I choose to fight them in the way that has them at an advantage......I would be looking to restrain and submit (break) as quickly as possible....maybe taking it to ground to give me a level playing field...maybe using the GET system if I was really in trouble.....over in 15 secs...either me or them!!!![/QUOTE]

ah, yep, the dreaded moves you'll do to end it in 15 seconds. This is funny. This is exactly what i am talking about, comments like this only solidify my belief that you really dont know much about "real" fighting.

Its ok (and now comes my arrogance) there are many educated and logical people who chose to take a logical approach to fighting, they chose to look at fighting theoritically, theorise over such events as you described above. Firstly I just have to clear this up MUAY THAI IS NOT KICKBOXING! but that has nothing to do with a sport fighter being able to defend himself on the street.

What makes you believe that the guy you may fight is going to say, "oh yeah by the way I only train in Kickboxing so if you want you can take me to the ground"... what makes you believe that the guy in front of you is trained in the first place? What makes you believe that simply taking him into a lock and takedown then break will be that easy, just a 15 second afair?

nonsense I tell ya. Complete nonsense. You will not know who you are fighting and unless he is a complete idiot or totally legless and you sober you will probably find that the majority of what you said you will do you wont actually do it.

Now this brings me onto age. A young ring fighter will have you in a few moments. Dont doubt that. The older you get the slower you get. The weaker you get, reaching mid 40 early 50's then mate just do MAs for sport and keep fit because your fighting days, on the street or not, are coming to an end. A 25 year old Thaiboxer will have the majority of middle aged men without a problem, even if you know ground fighting, why? because strength and conditioning of the young buck will be of major advantage. I know this because just recently I was able to manhandle a MMA who was older, he couldnt do much because I out strengthed him and was out conditioning him. Strength and power are important and play a big part in the outcome of your fight. Then you can think what makes you believe he will look at you and say "ok I am going to fight this guy normally" why would you think that because your foe in front of you has fought in a ring he will then fight you like he does in the ring...

....Wolf rely on muscle memory, you are convinced this is what you need, thats ok. Muscle memory is what novice fighter rely on because they cannot think too much. A couple of seconds will go by and the "ring" fighter will realise that you are relying on muscle memory (fighting like a novice) and then proceed to hand your ass to you.

that is fighting. You gotta fight to be able to fight. You gotta spar and develop reflex and timing, rounds or no rounds, doesnt matter. You simply have got to spar and fight in order to be able to fight well. Dont do this and the guys who do do it will always be one up on you no matter what.

Be humble, accept that if what you do is detrimental to your fighting ability then it your own fault! Just realise that there is only one way that you can get better at fighting, by fighting. Realise that whatever way you gain your fighting experience doesnt really matter so long as its a fight, realise that its not the "how you fight in a ring" that changes how you fight on the street but its "what you gain in the ring" that ultimately helps you on the street.

Now, are you saying that a ring fighter has a disadvantage over someone who doesnt fight in the ring? or would you say that a ring fighter has an advantage because he is regularly fighting against well conditioned fighters?

or would you think a man who trains in the dojo 3-4 times a week for an event that is highly unlikely to ever happen, who doesnt spar or test his fighting skills and totally relies on "muscle memory" will have the upper hand on a man who train 6 days a week, with peak physical condition, training hard to fight, developing his fighting wit and thinking mind to strategically defeat another EQUALLY as conditioned, equally as sharp and equally as focused fighter?

My money goes on the ring fighter.

But mate, if you add sparring, add testing into your training then you will become just liek the ring fighter, eventually. Relying on muscle memory is idiotic, for the reasons Chen pointed out, you never do the same thing 3 times. You gotta think about what you will do and what you are doing, you come up against a "thinking" fighter you are doomed.

[This message has been edited by MuayThai (edited 10-13-2004).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/13/04 05:57 PM

Here we go again....

I feel that I need to clarify something....
I have never fought in the ring professionally.....I have no interest in this....I have been a sparring partner to professional fighters on occasion....this is what I meant when I said that I'm not a stranger to the ring....
I'm a family man who is well and truly over my testosterone filled youth and 20 year old ego.

I look for different things than you Muay Thai....I see things differently....
I look at continuing my training in the safest possible way....I have a responsibility to my family and that means that I generally don't want to get "beat up" in class....I have to go to work the next day......your comments about full contact fighting is falling on deaf ears ...... I don't care.
Your opinion is your own.....and you are entitled to it ......my life doesn't revolve around the ring....nor does it revolve around constantly fighting......

I have also had my fair share of encounters in the street....and I will rely on my experience and the experience of my instructors and the founder of our system to make up my mind.....not yours!!
You do what works for you.......I will not stoop to your level and call you ignorant......I choose not to go there.....but can I ask that you to keep an open mind......Muay Thai is great....but it is not everything my friend......you seem to have only one eye opened.......

For the record.....I disagree with you....I don't believe that the only way to learn to defend yourself is to "get beat up"........ or constantly fight....... I do not train to fight in the ring....so why should I use a professional fighters training methods??!!

I understand that you disagree with me.....let's leave it at that please.....no petty name calling is required here......

The Wolf
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/13/04 09:20 PM

Wolf,
Then I suppose that we think differently. I cant use a plan so broad as "survive". While my ultimate goal obviously is survival, ten there is no need to think simply of that when encountered. Instead think of the means to the end. The technique. This is what I think about. I think about how close the opponent is, What area of his body is open, and whether or not the technique will stop him. Then I adjust accordingly. If the technique doesnt stop him then the process is repeated, with the occasional defensive technique inserted.

Muay Thai, dont tell people to be humble. No offense, but you are never humble my friend.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/13/04 10:24 PM

Hi Chen

In this case....I guess we do....I have agreed with many of your comments before...but yes you are right....it seems we disagree on this one...(which is OK)...
I still feel that thinking of a technique is like "the finger pointing to the moon" (apologies for the cliché)....
I think the over all picture of "survival" (in this case) will see you through any encounter....techniques and applications are secondary...and take too long to think about in my opinion...the mind set is crucial....I think if your only plan is to survive....then you can't go wrong....the techniques will come automatically......

The Wolf

[This message has been edited by The Wolf (edited 10-13-2004).]
Posted by: MuayThai

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/14/04 05:47 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Muay Thai, dont tell people to be humble. No offense, but you are never humble my friend.[/QUOTE]


I am very humble! I have a problem with expressing myself using a form of expression called the english language [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] I am crap at it and when I try to explain things I make myself out to be "apparently arrogant" and not listening...

...by the way wolf, I have said countless times I KNOW MUAY THAI IS NOT EVERYTHING! :d

This is not about Muay Thai this is about fighting and what benifits fighting in a ring has for anyone wishing to learn how to fight!
Posted by: MuayThai

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/14/04 06:13 AM

Lemme try to explain. Wolf you are hell bent on insisiting that you "do not think" during a fight but rather "rely on muscle memory".

This is what the debate is about its not about the usefullness of Muay Thai so please remove that idea rom your head [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

You must think in a fight, you cannot rely on something which your mind has no control over. Muscle memory to a certain extent is a part of the reaction but you MUST use your head. There are famous quotes by various types of fighters, one is "only a thinking man should fight". This is not about sport vs street this is about fighting full stop!

You must use your head (brain) you cannot go into a fight without thinking!

about 2 years ago I found myself in your country with 2 people one had a stick and I was fighting using my mind... its amazing how quickly the mindset changed, fight went into slow motion and I thought while I was doing!

If I would have relied on muscle memory then I probably would not have been able to thoughtfully do what I did in order to make my butt safe! Just for the record I used Muay Thai to defend myself.

You are saying you have no time to think. Ok, I know exactly what your talking about and this is what I am trying to explain to you. Read my words dude... I am not trying to patronise you and even though I may be younger than you what I am saying is fact! If you feel you have not got enough time to think that is because inexperience is clouding your mind...(I mean that in a non patronising way) the more, dare I say this, experienced you become the less chaotic a fight actually feels so then you have plenty of time to think, so it seems, and no need to rely on what novice fighters would rely on, muscle memory! do you understand what i am trying to explain? (meant in a nice way)

This is probably why you believe that muscle memory is the key to defense. Muscle memory plays a part but if you can think during a fight and rely on your wit and thinking mind then you will fight a hell of a lot better, quicker, sharper, smarter! ring or no ring.

We do daily repetitions, this is good, this develops muscle memory so you can perform the technique in the blink of an eye, this develops good solid technique... but you need to have a thinking brain while fighting. Any man who enters a fight (any fight) and does not think and finds himself against a thinking fighting opponent (street or ring) will have major problems. This is the main reason why when a match up for a sport fight is always evenly matched, they dont stick a novice who relys on muscle memory in the ring with a seasoned fighter who thinks and reacts. The way a man thinks during a fight, the way he fights mentally not the techniques used but the mindset of the fighter does not change in the ring or outside the ring, it simply does not change. The only things that change are the rules and strategy but as I have said before a thinking fighter (who thinks and doesnt rely on muscle memory) will know the rules have changed and so try to the best of his ability to fight according to the rules of the game... so in other words, if anything goes he will try to fight "anything goes".

An example. My coach in Thailand, Lex Sor Anucha, exLumpinee champion, Boran fighter (bareknuckle boxer) and now fights to earn a living while he is still officially retired. He fought in those Boran events, he has trained his butt off, repeating everything over and over again, Boran fights allow everything other than ground grappling, you can strike on the ground but not grapple on the ground(the spectators dont liek to wacth a grappling match). These fights, unless you know what I am talking of, are very like a "street" fight, headbutting, groin kicking and dirty tricks... he could have fought in one of these events then two weeks later fought in a Muay Thai event where half of the techniques allowed in Boran are illegal in Muay Thai... if he were relying on mucle memory surely he would have been doing what he was trained to do, no? his thinking mind helps him to think during his fights, his muscle memory does play a part but ultimately his mind is what is calling the shots.

Same with Buakaw. He is fighting k-1 and yet he is training daily 6-8 hours for Muay Thai bouts... he doesnt fight in K-1 like he does in Muay Thai because he is aware and thinking while he fights. Again muscle memory plays a part but it is not what he relys on.

On the street its the same. The skills and experience I have gained from the ring are like gold. I have fought in both forms, not just sparred but full contact hard hitting fighting and I now know that when you actually think and strategise in BOTH areas of fighting you will hold a much better chance of winning but I also know that to speed this thinking process up making a fight seem slow you must have experience.... this is the way of fighting. Experience is the key to being able to fight well inside or outside the ring.

Ok you're older now, then dont worry about it, just for the record I have a friend who retired at 40 as WKN world champion Kickboxing.

You can train hard, get the odd soft sparring session in, believe me, you may think I am just arguing for the sake of it but i am not! Experience and "cleverness" is the key to fighting and winning in any situation. When I say cleverness I mean a diferent kind of cleverness, like a cunning cat, not academic, if it was based on academic cleverness I'd be doomed :P

think about it and ask some of your training partners what they think.

[This message has been edited by MuayThai (edited 10-14-2004).]
Posted by: MuayThai

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/14/04 04:51 PM

Ok now another thing which I may add,

during a competitive fight you will notice that sometimes when you have novice fighters you will see them both rush each other, from NHB to Boxing you can see novices rushing and flailing. Ok now, think about this. Through time the fighters gain experience and quickly realise that simply rushing an opponent only drains energy and makes them vulnerable because they are tired.

On the street, you do not know who you are fighting, if a man rushes you flailing wildy and you are trained and have competitvely fought you will quickly know this and how to exactly deal with it.... for me personally, a flailing guy is easy pickings but an accurate and hard hitting boxer is bloody hard work to deal with. I know, I got KO'd just a few months back there by one.

Muscle memory takes you so far but you gotta rely on whats in between your ears! Your brain.

Street or ring. Fighting is fighting, inexperienced fighters inside the ring or outside the ring tend to always fight with the same method, rush, flail, puff & pant, grab pull shove... tired, then bang! They breath through their arses, they go into tunnel vision (which again is what you dont want) their limbs feel heavy and they loose control. They will be beaten by an experienced fighter, a fighter who has gained experience inside or outside the ring, it doesnt matter! Experience, using your wit, thinking and relying on your cleverness and cunning is how to defend yourself against even the most unpredictable of attackers.

Of course no one is ever prepared for a sneaky punch!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/14/04 10:09 PM

Hey Muay Thai

I'm glad it's back on track and civil this time!!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

OK....all of the fights you mentioned are "pre arranged" fights...moving from Boran to Muay...is a pre thought out concept.....there is plenty of time to prepare before the fight.....also, there is naturally adrenaline before a fight....the more experienced you are as a ring fighter...the less the adrenaline "hit"....

But on the street....it's generally never "pre arranged"...... unless you yourself go out looking for "trouble".....my point here is that the adrenaline dump will affect even proficient ring fighters in the street because it is not a pre arranged fight....there is no certainty of the rules that your assailant will be fighting by......you haven't seen him fight before so you don't know how good or bad he is.....your corner can't save you by throwing in the towel......there's an added element of danger (more so than than a ring fight) and there is no one to stop the assailant doing grievous bodily harm after you are KO'ed (if this was to happen).....all of this uncertainty and "shock" of the encounter produces adrenaline...unless you are superhuman. The street is not a sparring session or ring fight...the street is.....the street...

Studies have shown that YOU CANT THINK STRAIGHT while under the influence of an adrenaline dump.....
But even if you choose to ignore this fact....time is still a factor in my opinion.

I just think that wasting time and thinking of a specific technique can be costly in the street....sometimes there is not even the chance to "view" the assailant...the assailant will not give you a chance to "shape him up"...there will be no "stick and move"....or jostling for position..there will only be straight out attack.....
I train to defend against a flurry of punches and kicks....(usually the way it comes in the street)coming all at once....also...I choose not to use stick and move....I attack to defend...
This is a plan though....I don't think of specific techniques....basically I aspire to enter, pass and control....I'm still learning this method.....

Picture this.......from no where...an assailant starts to throw punches.........quickly.....what's your response....what did you just think about......I bet the first techniques you just thought of is what's programmed through muscle memory.......or your favourite techniques....also muscle memory....

Some times we are not at liberty to think......

These are my humble thoughts
The Wolf



[This message has been edited by The Wolf (edited 10-14-2004).]
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/14/04 10:52 PM

The thing about thinking in a fight is not to panic. The panic is what brings on the thought destroying Adrenal Dump. However, if you look at fighting like you look at everything else then it comes naturally. The adrenaline is still released but its slower. Like a drip instead of a dump. This is the optimal situation. To have the slow onset of adrenaline but still remaining calm enough to use your mind.

If there is no thought in fighting then what is focus?

Jeet Kune Do is the thinking mans art.
Posted by: MuayThai

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/15/04 07:06 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

OK....all of the fights you mentioned are "pre arranged" fights...moving from Boran to Muay...is a pre thought out concept.....there is plenty of time to prepare before the fight.....also, there is naturally adrenaline before a fight....the more experienced you are as a ring fighter...the less the adrenaline "hit"....
[/QUOTE]


No. Lemme try and explain. Adrenalin dump is experienced by even the most experienced fighters its how they use this to their advantage that differs, how the experienced fighter handles the adrenalin dump compared to a novice is what differs. A pre arranged fight happens like this... you are asked (usually) do you want to fight, you say yes, then you feel a little twang in your stomach, butterflies perhaps. Through the weeks of training this "feeling" becomes ever more present and stronger, this is Adrenalin (research this) being slowely released from the adrenal glands on top of each kidney, this gets stronger as the fight gets close. On the night of your fight you feel it rush through your body, how you handle this is what matters, novices usually relate this feeling to "fear", in a sense it is fear but the more you fight the more you begin to understand that this is only the body preparing itself for a fight that it knows it will be getting into.... the body cannot differntiate between sport or street all it knows is there is a fight soon and it is going to be part of it. The time of fight, the adrenalin dump happens. This adrenalin dump is no different from the adrenalin dump experienced outside of a ring, in fact, I find it much easier fighting outside a ring because I dont have that slow excretion of adrenal over a period of maybe months! seriously, you gotta experience what I am talking about.

Now, a street fight, out of the blue, your body goes through the exact same motions as it would before a sport fight, EXACTLY the same only now it happens within a split second. The adrenal dump felt is no different than what is felt during a "sportive" fight.... NO difference.

Sport fighting prepares you for adrenalin dump, it prepares you mentally for fighting and helps to develop your fighting skills. I hope that I have made some sense of that, I recommend you ask some qualified medic what exactly happens during adrenalin dump and what "fight or flight" is. I have done quite a bit of research myself to help myself understand what it is. Adrenalin dump is no different from a sport fight or real fight the only thing that may be seen as a difference is that during a street fight you have very little time to contemplate whereas a sport fight you know it is going to happen so have plenty of time to contemplate, what you do in both sport or street while adrenalin dump kicks has no difference.


[QUOTE]But on the street....it's generally never "pre arranged"...... unless you yourself go out looking for "trouble".....my point here is that the adrenaline dump will affect even proficient ring fighters in the street because it is not a pre arranged fight....[/QUOTE]

Read my points above. Pre arranged doesnt mean a thing, its a real fight mate with real adrenalin and real pain. A ring fighter with experience will be able to handle adrenalin dump be it on the street or in a ring, there is no difference, research it. Thats what i am saying, its the same adrenalin dump, no different. Time is all that sets both apart. I'd prefer not having to wait or to find out I was fighting one night before as the wait is a killer and to be honest if you can go through 2 months of slow release of adrenal and then fight well on the night then on the street when its instant you will undoubtably perform very well (I have done and will continue to do so as long as I have my wit about me)


[QUOTE]there is no certainty of the rules that your assailant will be fighting by......you haven't seen him fight before so you don't know how good or bad he is.....your corner can't save you by throwing in the towel......there's an added element of danger[/QUOTE]

Hmmm.... the points you've made, I dont know exactly what you're trying to say but I kind of disagree with you. A ring fighter is a thinking human being, mate how many times have you fought? how many times would you say you have experienced the adrenalin dump on the street and in a ring (not sparring but for real) You dont need to answer here but ask yourself that question. On the dreaded street I feel quite safe to a certain degree, why? because the majority of arse ends cant really fight! I (as a sport fighter) may fight in competition bound by rules but on the street I know these rules dont exist and now a "new" set of rules are in place... these new set of rules I am already quite familiar with and I am very sure the majority of "ring" fighters are also quite familiar with, not many pacifists step into a ring to fight, know what I mean? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] its usually the kind who like to have a punch up climb into a ring, I say usually because nothing is ever set in stone.

[QUOTE]there is no one to stop the assailant doing grievous bodily harm after you are KO'ed (if this was to happen).....all of this uncertainty and "shock" of the encounter produces adrenaline...unless you are superhuman.[/QUOTE]

Silly arguement. haha. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] Of course sport fighters, at least those who can "think" [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] are aware of the added risks of fighting without a referee and doctors...


[QUOTE]The street is not a sparring session or ring fight...the street is.....the street...[/QUOTE]

man, weak argeuments again. The street is a hard piece of concrete the guys who fight on the street are guys just like the guys who a sport fighter fights in a ring, what makes you think they are any diferent? (well obviously a highly fit and strong individual training to fight and does so on a monthly basis, also sparring with other highly trained and fit individuals is different than the idiotic thug doped up or drunk who "usually" doesnt even know how to throw a punch, dont under estimate the skills that can be learned by ring fighting [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] trust me on that one) you have not gave a good explanation as to why you believe sport fighting is detramental to self defense.

[QUOTE]Studies have shown that YOU CANT THINK STRAIGHT while under the influence of an adrenaline dump.....[/QUOTE]

Myabe what you are meant to say is "studies have shown that INEXPERIENCED fighters cannot think straight while under the influence of adrenalin dump"

[QUOTE]But even if you choose to ignore this fact....time is still a factor in my opinion.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you but when experience comes into it I dont agree with you [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]I just think that wasting time and thinking of a specific technique can be costly in the street....sometimes there is not even the chance to "view" the assailant...the assailant will not give you a chance to "shape him up"...there will be no "stick and move"....or jostling for position..there will only be straight out attack.....[/QUOTE]

Again you are totally missing the piont, there is a split second of thought process in the mind of an experienced fighter, think of a fighter like a Formula 1 driver, does a formula one driver rely on muscle memory, I think not he thinks but his thought process is quick, damn quick! decisions made in split seconds. A fighter (experienced fighter) is capable fo doing this this is what sets him apart from the novice who relies on muscle memory.

stick and move, please remove that notion from your head. Again you are not listening to what i am saying. I am not want ing to argue with you but If you feel that maybe what i am saying is coming from my own fighting experience both on the damn dreaded street and in a ring then please, take the time to fully hear what i am saying because what I am saying is fact!


[QUOTE]I train to defend against a flurry of punches and kicks....(usually the way it comes in the street)coming all at once....also...I choose not to use stick and move....I attack to defend...[/QUOTE]

Funnily enough thats what we do as sport fighters. Strange huh? That a sport fighter actually trains to stop a flailing madman in his tracks or defend against a technical combo that is both fast, hard and pretty damn accurate.

[QUOTE]Picture this.......from no where...an assailant starts to throw punches.........quickly.....what's your response....what did you just think about......I bet the first techniques you just thought of is what's programmed through muscle memory.......or your favourite techniques....also muscle memory....[/QUOTE]

Been there and done it, my thoughs are usually "what the f***!!" and dodge what he has thrown, if it is dodgable! Then start whjacking him... whats the big difference, I just didnt have 2 months of slow adrenalin secretion before hand, thats all! I am not saying that muscle memory plays no part I am saying you DO NOT rely on muscle memory, or at least aim to not rely on what your mind is not controlling! Muscle memory plays a part in fighting but what wins fights fast and easily is your wit, the thinking mind, your cunning.

[QUOTE]Some times we are not at liberty to think......[/QUOTE]

When you as a person stops thinkinmg in a fight and the guy you happen to be fighting with is thinking and an experienced ring fighter what do you honestly believe the outcome will be?

Be honest. Do you really believe that you can solely rely on muscle memory when fight against a man who has fight experience gained from sport fighting who also thinks (and thinks like the F-1 driver, fast and sharp) using his wit and cunning, not panicking, used to his adrenalin dump, foucsed because after all he's been here before so is no stranger to pain or fight. What do you think the outcome would be.

Now do you see where I am coming from and what i am trying to, in a firendly way, encourage you to consider.



[This message has been edited by MuayThai (edited 10-15-2004).]
Posted by: MuayThai

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/15/04 07:26 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:
I train to defend against a flurry of punches and kicks....(usually the way it comes in the street)coming all at once....also...I choose not to use stick and move....I attack to defend..[/QUOTE]

Ok, you chose not to use the stick and move. Take time to really think about this. What happens when you suddenly find that your "attack to defend" method doesnt work? The guy in front of you is starting to show signs of competance and skill, what do you begin to do? I will place a bet of a £1000 that you begin to, even if you dont want to, "stick and move" even on the street. You cannot fight someone who knows how to fight and has experience by simply rushing them, street or not, you cannot do this or you will get hammered! Its best to use your experience and quickly anylise him, try and take him as quick but if this doesnt work then you gotta think fast and realise that he knows what to do so then the fight changes strategy, its all about thinking. Rushing or flailing a competant fighter is teh dumbest thing anyone could ever do.
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/15/04 07:54 PM

Wolf,

Suppose your opponent has a strong offense. Would you still simply stand and defend while he rushes you? When you said this did you imply that you prefer the defensive mindset?

Personally, I believe defense is the weaker aspect of fighting. Fights are won by attacking not defending. Im not saying dont defend, Im saying if you have the choice to attack or defend you should always attack.

[This message has been edited by Chen Zen (edited 10-18-2004).]
Posted by: MuayThai

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/18/04 06:39 AM

Chen mate, Oldman hasnt posted on this thread, lol, are you smoking something???
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/18/04 08:05 AM

I'm in his head now mate. I'll tell you one experience Ihad with a rushing attacker. When I was probably 13 or so I had made a smartassed comment to a bigger kid at our school. (Imagine that). Next thing I know he wants to kick my ass after school. Going toe to toe didn't seem to be a good idea so I started to move backwards away from him slowly. He was like hey punk where you think you're goin? and started after me. Then I turned and bolted with bigboy hot on my heels. He was getting madder and madder. I ran for about 50 yards Until I could hear him huffing a bit. I started to slow up, then as he started to reach for my shoulder from behind I hit the brakes and dropped into a tight ball on the ground. Bigboys momentum carried him over the top of me ass over elbows. After he hit the ground he didnt have the legs to continue the chase. Plus he had a nice scrape on his forhead. Then I just headed for the hills as they say.

oldman

My teacher says defending is a losers game.

[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 10-18-2004).]
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/18/04 12:38 PM

Actually, I had just posted a post on one of Oldman's threads and was thinking about writing another one there when I wrote the above post. It was actually meant to be directed to the Wolf.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/18/04 06:34 PM

Hi guys

I was wondering what was going on??!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Chen....I personally wouldn't retreat backwards and defend....I've learnt the hard way that real safety is forwards not backwards!!!!! I'm now learning to ENTER into the flurry and end up in some type of clinch (which ever I can get).....this is the first priority for me....stopping the flurry and making myself safe....generally people use multiple strikes in the street....

Once I have the assailant in a clinch with my full body weight leaning on him and my head buried in his chest...then I can react....I'm learning to fight from this position rather than having the space cushion that's employed in most striking arts. From this clinch..anything goes .... takedowns ... chokes (if you can get them) a knuckle to the ear lobe....using the head under the chin to help in a take down......moving to a headlock to shoot the guy to the pavement....what ever the situation calls for...
Just to clarify...I wasn't talking about just standing there or back peddling and using magical blocks... I was talking about "jamming" the assailant by entering....

The Wolf
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/20/04 10:50 PM

Wolf
Ah, I see. Jamming is good but I would prefer stop hitting. Im a striker by nature and I seem to use less energy striking then trying to force my position or my opponent into a position. Also with going for the clinch there is the chance the opponent will stop hit. I also believe that if I stophit instead of going for the clinch then there is less chance for my opponent to make a move. Grappling and clenching can go either way and if it goes bad you're in a bad way. With striking the opponent is more apt to try and defend or counter instead of attack. Once on the defensive it is hard to mount an offense if you are being pressed. So stop hit, then press the attack. Then if that fails you are better setup for the clinch or takedown. You're opponent will either be defending and backpeddling, or he's going to counter hard. Either way you have a good chance of landing the takedown, then going for the mount and pound.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/21/04 02:38 AM

Hey Chen

Very good points.....
I think that part of the issue is...what is "excessive force" for a martial artist... I've been training to restrain rather than strike....sometimes strikes are necessary....I can appreciate this.
However, Martial Artists seem to be on the losing side of court battles.....always!
I think having a first reaction to restrain rather than strike is physically, and morally a more viable option.
There have been recent deaths involving bouncers in Australia....in all of these night club deaths...some type of strike did the damage.... experienced bouncers (door people) fought with patrons as if they were their equal.....and people have died.....

I have no problem with striking if it is absolutely necessary......and the situation would determine this.....my last post was in the context of being able to choose to restrain rather than strike....
Entering...or jamming can be done in many ways....yes...you can jam an opponent with a jab...uppercut elbow...headbut....etc...if you choose to...or need to....
I point I was trying to make though is to actually enter (forward) somehow rather than back peddle and defend.....

I hope this helps to clarify the path I was on..

The Wolf




[This message has been edited by The Wolf (edited 10-21-2004).]
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/28/04 09:55 PM

Sorry to be so long in replying. I now moderate two forums and am back in school so my time is short.

If you were in a confrontation, would you not treat your opponent as your equal? I mean not to justify killing an opponent, especially a drunk one, however, one must also consider, that since the opponent is innebriated then his judgement is cloudy. He may very well intend to kill you and his buddies may intend to try to as well when they see you put down there friend. I sympathize with the families of the patrons but can hold little fault against the bouncers.

I think a strike is almost always preferred. Its faster and requires less strength and energy. In a situation such as a bouncers in it would comprise nearly all offense, preffering to strike and move than get tangled with an opponent and be vulnerable to passerbys.

Restraining is good but it requires setup to be truly effective. Setup or telegraphing on the part of the opponent.
Without proper setup you will get hit many times before landing the restraining grab if you land it at all.

Also it feels like it leaves much to be desired in the way of defense. Id much rather have my hands return to me quickly after a strike then hanging out there attempting the restraint.

Also, who is to say that the opponent has the same moral values as yourself? He may not be trying to just hold you down, he most likely is trying to hurt you. What happens if you let go or he breaks the restraint? Now he is further angered. For the restraint to work you must do damage by way of a break or tissue tear or you must wait for the authorities. Both are risky. you are going to go to jail if you break the guys arm, if he starts it or not. Theres no telling how long the police could take for a call about a fist fight when they have other crimes going on. Restraining may put you in a worse position than simply knocking out the opponent.

However I do agree with your point. Move forward.
Posted by: MAGon

Re: Thinking on your feet. - 10/29/04 04:54 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
...and am back in school so my time is short.
[/QUOTE]

Good news indeed!!! Congratulations!

P.S.: As I told you in my E- mail, I haven't posted 'cause you and Muay Thai are on a roll.



[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 10-29-2004).]