A QUESTION FOR JKOGAS

You seem to be very knowledegeable about JKD, and I have several questions for you. How was Bruce Lee as a grappler? Is grappling very important? Also, what do you feel is the best way or several ways to end a streetfight fast?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Razwell:
You seem to be very knowledegeable about JKD, and I have several questions for you. How was Bruce Lee as a grappler? Is grappling very important? Also, what do you feel is the best way or several ways to end a streetfight fast? [/QUOTE]

I’ll answer your questions one at a time.

1. Lee was not a great grappler. He’d just started learning it somewhat from Lebell.

2. Grappling is CRITICALLY important. It is ONE HALF of the game of fighting.

3. Depends entirely on the scenario. The best way to end it is to leave the scene before it begins. Otherwise, it completely depends on your opponent, his actions and strengths/skills.

However, I’ll bite and give you a couple of scenarios:

1. The boxing blast (safer than the straight blast). With good timing, it’s possible to completely blow your opponent off his base. This will help provide an avenue for escape.

2. Intercepting your opponent’s punching with a crash entry, body-lock clinch and takedown to the mount position.

3. The all around best way to end a fight from stand-up might be to; intercept your opponent, obtain a collar & elbow tie-up, hit a snap-down to a front headlock and fire knee strikes to the face (sounds like a lot of stuff to do, but really isn’t). Knee strikes to the face are going to provide the best chance of a knock-out (don’t want to hit with our fists on the street with KO power).

-John

I forgot one very dangerous move;


It's a lot like the last technique (no. 3) but when you snap the head down, you move your arm underneath and do a move similar to a pancake, only his head is caught underneath your arm. It's called a crucifix (you may already know this one). Once you're turning the crucifix, you just let your body weight drop. This could easily destroy the vertibrate.

-John

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:


2. Grappling is CRITICALLY important. It is ONE HALF of the game of fighting.

3. The all around best way to end a fight from stand-up might be to; intercept your opponent, obtain a collar & elbow tie-up, hit a snap-down to a front headlock and fire knee strikes to the face (sounds like a lot of stuff to do, but really isn’t). Knee strikes to the face are going to provide the best chance of a knock-out (don’t want to hit with our fists on the street with KO power).

-John[/QUOTE]

id have to disagree with these 2 points...

firstly, grappling is tremendously important in fighting but in terms of MMA fighting or street fighting someone with grappling skills. for the average street scenario against a non-MA, grappling should not be a factor bc you will/ should end the confrontation within seconds through a blast of strikes. ive had my fair share of street situations and have only ended on the ground twice..once against a boxer who basically KOd me, and another time against a very large bouncer who tried to bear hug me....every other situation ive been in in my entire life as a trained MA (not including fighting as a young child), has ended quickly with me on my feet. while i have tremendous respect for the art of grappling, it is presumptuous and inaccurate to claim that it comprises 1/2 of the gameof fighting since the game of fighting is populated with players who dont know how to play the game at all...

secondly, knees to the head are a great way to end fights quickly but i wouldnt get there by intercepting and then using a collar or elbow grip bc it is very difficult to land hard knees to the head unless your opponent is at least somewhat incapacitated ie. stunned...otherwise he will be raising his head or moving it to the side and your knees will not be effective. knees to the head should be preceded by some sort of blow or combination of blows to the head and THEN grab your opponents head by the HAIR and start smashing your knees into his face. lead punches before knees will allow you to land at least 1 extremely hard knee to the face which will in turn allow you to start rapid fire blasting his face and the fight quickly ends...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

id have to disagree with these 2 points...

firstly, grappling is tremendously important in fighting but in terms of MMA fighting or street fighting someone with grappling skills. for the average street scenario against a non-MA, grappling should not be a factor bc you will/ should end the confrontation within seconds through a blast of strikes.
[/QUOTE]

Would, should, could....ah yes. I agree. I SHOULD be a millionaire as well and I WOULD be if someone COULD just hand a million bucks to me. Fact is, life isn’t all nice and tidy like that, giving us everything that we think we should have. In other words, life has a way of not cooperating with our plans. If our plan is to keep everything standing and to just end confrontations with a “blast of strikes” as you say, then surely as I’m sitting here typing – that will be the actual LAST thing that happens.

The truth is, you won’t be given the luxury of determining which range you’ll find yourself fighting out of. What you DON’T KNOW is how you’ll be beaten. Don’t know grappling? You’ll be beaten by grappling. Why else would I say that it’s so critical?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

ive had my fair share of street situations and have only ended on the ground twice..once against a boxer who basically KOd me, and another time against a very large bouncer who tried to bear hug me....every other situation ive been in in my entire life as a trained MA (not including fighting as a young child), has ended quickly with me on my feet.
[/QUOTE]

Consider yourself fortunate that your opponents all sucked and were sh*t poor fighters. Luck IS a good thing to have on our sides when possible. Congratulations for you there!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

while i have tremendous respect for the art of grappling, it is presumptuous and inaccurate to claim that it comprises 1/2 of the gameof fighting since the game of fighting is populated with players who dont know how to play the game at all...
[/QUOTE]

It isn’t presumptuous at all, it’s a FACT that can be both explained and demonstrated. It’s self-evident to those without predetermined definitions and agendas.

Striking (regardless of style or method) is one half of fighting. Don’t care if it’s boxing or Dim Mak. The other half is grappling and again, I don’t care if it’s aikido, wrestling, Brazilian jiu-jitsu or Eagle Claw kung fu. This is just simple common sense – which never fails to be either simple or common.

However, you’re certainly becoming VERY presumptuous when you begin mentioning, “the game of fighting is populated with players who dont know how to play the game at all...”. Those kind of assumptions can lead to high dental bills.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

secondly, knees to the head are a great way to end fights quickly but i wouldnt get there by intercepting and then using a collar or elbow grip bc it is very difficult to land hard knees to the head unless your opponent is at least somewhat incapacitated ie. stunned...otherwise he will be raising his head or moving it to the side and your knees will not be effective.
[/QUOTE]

You completely inexperienced when it comes to front headlocks judging from that last post. Controlling positions are something you have a slight need to understand before you go thinking you can “just raise your head out of” as you mentioned. It’s not hard to land knees to the head at ALL from such a position. Nor is it hard to obtain such a position. But it’s better demonstrated than just TALKED about.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

knees to the head should be preceded by some sort of blow or combination of blows to the head and THEN grab your opponents head by the HAIR and start smashing your knees into his face.
[/QUOTE]

That’s all good if he’s got hair to begin with, but such moves go right to sh*t when it’s not there! Moves like that which are based on some “pre-existing condition” just plain **** . I would rather have a thorough understanding of grappling, but there we go again talking about the importance of that – which is why I said it was so critical to begin with.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

lead punches before knees will allow you to land at least 1 extremely hard knee to the face which will in turn allow you to start rapid fire blasting his face and the fight quickly ends...[/QUOTE]

You HOPE it will quickly end. That’s not always the case when you factor in pain thresholds and the adrenaline dump. People have been known to walk away from plane crashes. Sometimes little pesky punches just don’t do the trick if you follow my meaning.


.....But, how do punches set up knees to the face anyway unless you plan on JUMPING there?

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-13-2004).]

I see the value in grappling, in a crowded area. The fight will be broken up before someone can hurt you, if you are good at it.

Even if it is one on one - you don't know who is around, and who their mates are. Also, being on the ground, your getaway time would be alot slower.

"Consider yourself fortunate that your opponents all sucked and were sh*t poor fighters. Luck IS a good thing to have on our sides when possible. Congratulations for you there!"

Isn't that a bit presumptuous? It's an incentive to keep on training, to remain better and and have the initiative. Did you fight them?

"Striking (regardless of style or method) is one half of fighting. Don’t care if it’s boxing or Dim Mak. The other half is grappling and again, I don’t care if it’s aikido, wrestling, Brazilian jiu-jitsu or Eagle Claw kung fu. This is just simple common sense – which never fails to be either simple or common."

I'd say it's a third - and my lack of skill with weapons and mediocre grappling worry me. But they are getting better. paticulalry my defenses to shooting and takedowns. I still have problems when big guys put me in a head control.

Front headlocks - I use them in a transitionary way, as a set up to striking. Knees are also easy to counter if you are wrapped up. Striking the top of the head is more liekly to work.

"That’s all good if he’s got hair to begin with, but such moves go right to sh*t when it’s not there! Moves like that which are based on some “pre-existing condition” just plain **** . I would rather have a thorough understanding of grappling, but there we go again talking about the importance of that – which is why I said it was so critical to begin with."

Most people have hair, so it's sensible. Eyes, ears, sternomastocloid, choke on base of skull, or hold them in against the body with the arm.

"You HOPE it will quickly end. That’s not always the case when you factor in pain thresholds and the adrenaline dump. People have been known to walk away from plane crashes. Sometimes little pesky punches just don’t do the trick if you follow my meaning"

People do not walk away from plane crashes. If it ever happens, it's freak occurence and a consequcne of them being lucky enough not to die on impact, not because they pump themselves up with macho bullshit, drugs or have experienced plance crashes before.

Pain is why many professional fighters lose. How many are KO'd outright? Either it is too painful to fight back, they are bludgeoned or they can't take the pain of pushing themselves harder than the opponent. If a KO doesn't work, what does? Broken bones? M1911? The techniques that are pain restrainst lead to breaks. If you can punch someone hard enough to KO them, you can break ribs, sternums and spines to stop them breathing. I've done it accidentally. While point fighting.

".....But, how do punches set up knees to the face anyway unless you plan on JUMPING there?"

Don't play the fool when you've been in the game for 25 years. You damn well know how.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

I see the value in grappling, in a crowded area. The fight will be broken up before someone can hurt you, if you are good at it.
[/QUOTE]

Why do people always think that others will automatically jump in when fight hits the ground or that, the guy who took his opponent down will NOT be a part of a crowd himself? These are just weird thoughts that people CONTINUOUSLY have. It’s always struck me as a bit odd. Another thing people have the tendency to think is that others won’t jump in if the fight is kept standing. Odd stuff here folks…

Of the various fights I have witnessed that hit the ground, no one came in to help one side beat the other. Not one TIME! If anything, people come in to break fights up.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

Even if it is one on one - you don't know who is around, and who their mates are. Also, being on the ground, your getaway time would be alot slower. [/QUOTE]

And yet ANOTHER odd thing that people have a tendency to think is, that they’ll have a CHOICE in which range they’ll be fighting. This is truly bizarre to me!

It’s a reasonable point to say that you don’t know who else is around (why are we always fighting outside and in strange places???) and that getaway time is slower. This is why circumstances dictate tactics, etc. Tell what that means in this scenario – if some guy “jumps out of the shadows” in some strange place to take a punch at me (why he would do this is beyond me without even knowing me), I’m just going to run away. That’s if I have the reaction time to do so naturally. If I DON’T have the reaction time necessary, then it’s just on and whatever happens, happens. If I didn’t have the reaction time, it’s a good possibility that I’ll end up on the ground anyway. Even if not, I’m only doing whatever is necessary to break away and run. I’m not worried about cowardice.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

"Consider yourself fortunate that your opponents all sucked and were sh*t poor fighters. Luck IS a good thing to have on our sides when possible. Congratulations for you there!"

Isn't that a bit presumptuous? It's an incentive to keep on training, to remain better and and have the initiative. Did you fight them?
[/QUOTE]

Sure it’s incentive, but it’s plain ARROGANCE to always think that we’re (martial artists) the best fighters walking the earth. That is the ULTIMATE in underestimating one’s opponents.

There are a LOT of people training these days! Just because they’re fellow martial artists doesn’t mean that they’re automatically going to “be on our side” when sh*t breaks out. You can’t stop and say, “Hey wait, I noticed that CAT STANCE you just dropped down into – ya know, I am a martial artist too!” Then the other guy says, “REALLY?! Why don’t we go have a drink and talk about kata?”

Oh wait, that might actually occur between two classical stylists….. JUST KIDDING FOLKS! That’s JUST a joke.

Anyway, seeing as how we don’t just pull our martial arts club card out of our wallets and flash people with it to get them to calm down -- we could end up fighting ANYONE, trained or not. Who really CARES if they are untrained? This is the fallacy of so many martial artists who don’t actually engage. They always think that the untrained are going to be push-overs. THIS isn’t always the case. There are people out there with INSANE attributes who simply don’t NEED martial arts. Just because a guy knows “ching chang chong” doesn’t mean that he’s the automatic favorite!


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

"Striking (regardless of style or method) is one half of fighting. Don’t care if it’s boxing or Dim Mak. The other half is grappling and again, I don’t care if it’s aikido, wrestling, Brazilian jiu-jitsu or Eagle Claw kung fu. This is just simple common sense – which never fails to be either simple or common."

I'd say it's a third - and my lack of skill with weapons and mediocre grappling worry me. But they are getting better. paticulalry my defenses to shooting and takedowns. I still have problems when big guys put me in a head control.
[/QUOTE]

Weapons being a third?? I’ll buy that. I was just thinking in terms of empty hand, human to human conflict, but I’ll buy that.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

Front headlocks - I use them in a transitionary way, as a set up to striking. Knees are also easy to counter if you are wrapped up. Striking the top of the head is more liekly to work.[/QUOTE]

I can see how you might use a front headlock as a transitional position, but I will keep one as long as it’s being fruitful (in other words, as long as I’m raining unanswered shots into the guys cranium I’m going to keep it. Knees have a way of getting in there, even if the guy is blocking them. They tend to get in. They also get easier to land once you’ve hit him with one. The second one is easier than the first. The third is easier than the second, and so on.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

"That’s all good if he’s got hair to begin with, but such moves go right to sh*t when it’s not there! Moves like that which are based on some “pre-existing condition” just plain **** . I would rather have a thorough understanding of grappling, but there we go again talking about the importance of that – which is why I said it was so critical to begin with."

Most people have hair, so it's sensible. Eyes, ears, sternomastocloid, choke on base of skull, or hold them in against the body with the arm.
[/QUOTE]

Most people do have some hair – except for a lot of really tough guys that fight and look for trouble (target audience in other words). These people KNOW that hair grabbing occurs and so chose to shave their heads to keep it from being a factor. Yours truly is one of them (although I don’t go looking for trouble). I prefer a neck tie to a hair grab anyway. It allows me to control my opponent with our without hair.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:


"You HOPE it will quickly end. That’s not always the case when you factor in pain thresholds and the adrenaline dump. People have been known to walk away from plane crashes. Sometimes little pesky punches just don’t do the trick if you follow my meaning"

People do not walk away from plane crashes. If it ever happens, it's freak occurence and a consequcne of them being lucky enough not to die on impact, not because they pump themselves up with macho bullshit, drugs or have experienced plance crashes before.
[/QUOTE]

What I said was that “people have been known to walk away from plane crashes” and its a true statement HOWEVER you want to try and spin it. So, it is a fact that people can, do and will walk away from such crashes. Adrenaline is a powerful mother f’er.

Where did “pumping themselves up with drugs and macho bullsh*t come from?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

Pain is why many professional fighters lose. How many are KO'd outright? Either it is too painful to fight back, they are bludgeoned or they can't take the pain of pushing themselves harder than the opponent. If a KO doesn't work, what does? Broken bones? M1911? The techniques that are pain restrainst lead to breaks. If you can punch someone hard enough to KO them, you can break ribs, sternums and spines to stop them breathing. I've done it accidentally. While point fighting.
[/QUOTE]

If you want to believe that fighters just keel over because of pain, be my guest. I can share with you many stories where people DID NOT do such a thing. What would that prove though? That pain shouldn’t be a factor that you should take into consideration and your primary fight-stopping agent. Sure, it might stop some folks and if so that’s great! But I know of too many that just won’t quit.

I know PERSONALLY of a fighter that got his forearm broken blocking a punch in a pro fight. Wanna guess what happened? He won that fight via knock out.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

".....But, how do punches set up knees to the face anyway unless you plan on JUMPING there?"

Don't play the fool when you've been in the game for 25 years. You damn well know how.[/QUOTE]

Know I’m sorry, but I don’t see how punches to the face or even the body will set up knees. Oh sure, I know PLENTY of ways in which this will happen THEORETICALLY….but I don’t know as many ways that such things occur in the REAL WORLD. Believe me, I’m one who looks to put in his knees when possible and I’m always awaiting such an opportunity. Now in real fights, I’ve seen this done and have learned ways to do this out of real experience. I’ve yet to see knees to the face which are set up directly by punching.

-John



[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-14-2004).]

jkogas...obviously you have never seen a muay thai match...knees are set up with punches as a basic technique....and trust me, muay thai considers knees as a fundamental technique.

you claim to be an experienced REAL fighter but your rhetoric raises some questions. if you end up on the ground in most of your street fights then im sorry but your fighting skills are sub-standard. the majority of the population are unskilled in fighting and if they are taking you down then you need to re-examine your training.

no disrespect...i must be misinterpreting your post.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

jkogas...obviously you have never seen a muay thai match...knees are set up with punches as a basic technique....and trust me, muay thai considers knees as a fundamental technique.[/QUOTE]

Obviously, you have never seen a MMA match.

When was the last time you ever saw punches set up a knee to the face? Aside from that, TELL me how it’s done. Trust me, I understand muay Thai. It’s an element of the MMA approach. I’ve also thrown punches before as well as knees. Now, please do explain that set up to me.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

you claim to be an experienced REAL fighter but your rhetoric raises some questions. if you end up on the ground in most of your street fights then im sorry but your fighting skills are sub-standard.
[/QUOTE]

What I said was that you cannot predict from which range you’ll be fighting because YOU don’t always have that choice. That’s not debatable. You CAN be surprised for example, because anything is possible. You can also meet up with some actual quality opponents, something which I think has been lacking from your “experience” thus far I might add. Have you never encountered a world-class wrestler? They can put you down whether you want to go down or not.

Step out from the dojo every once and a while. It’s a different world out there.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

the majority of the population are unskilled in fighting and if they are taking you down then you need to re-examine your training.

no disrespect...i must be misinterpreting your post.[/QUOTE]

I never said that I was being taken down, but I also am not arrogant enough to realize that I could be taken down. That’s because of several factors:

1. I’m not the greatest fighter walking the earth. There are people out there better than me and always will be. There are people out there better than you as well. That’s something you’d better let slip under your gourd.

It is entirely within the realm of possibilities, that I COULD engage with a superior fighter. Is this something unfathomable to you? If in fact I DO end up engaged with a superior fighter, it IS entirely possible that he could take me down. Is this not making any sense? If not, why not?

2. I can be caught by surprise. Is this not possible within the realm of worst-case scenarios?

3. I can make mistakes. Making mistakes is what happens in the real world because no one is perfect. It’s all too human to screw up and being prepared for this is how we train. We don’t train to “always be perfect” because that’s not possible. We don’t train for best case scenarios because worst case scenarios happen and happen all the time. That’s LIFE for ya. Life has a way of not cooperating with your plans.

4. Quality fighters understand takedowns and can perform them well. I train them against punching and kicking all the time. If I do, certainly others do as well. That means, if all you know is punching and kicking and run up against someone who knows punching, kicking AND takedowns, guess what happens?? You’re going down.

Simple, common sense. Which again is apparently neither simple or common.


-John

You are being pendantic John.

Punches don't lead into clinching and knees and elbows? What do you do, jump there, how DOES it work in a real fight? All of MY training partners must be chumps. What DO they put int he water in NC?

More fights stop than go on for pain. I don't beleive you will say pain makes people keep on going...something's got to give eventually. Then again, you can't hurt some people. Train fighters do keel over in pain. How many boxing "knock outs" are mentally and physically giving up rather than loss of consciousness?

PS

People don't walk away from plane crashes, or at least crashes where the planes fall out of the sky - I have seen grotesque coronial evidence of plane crash victims - who weren't burnt, but they looked like that. Their seatbelts cut them up. I know people have survived sky diving accidents. When you have that much dopamine and adrenaline, I don't know wether you can do much, especially if your spine is shattered. I know adrenaline works- I get shakes after any hard training session, for quite a while after. Pro football players have gone onto win championships with broken limbs etc.....

If the only viable attack is a choke, to be applied against skiled opponents ho looking for trouble, buy a handgun and a humvee. Don't go outside much either.

My punches hurt for two reasons - they hit hard enough to do damage, and I know where to hit. Tried breathing with cracked ribs? Horse steroids and PCP cannot make you impervious to difficulty in breathing. I don't think you can ignore the kind of pain grabbing and crushing the sternomastocloid, kneeing to the face and dropping an elbow to the base of the skull causes. Pain happens for a reason.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Why do people always think that others will automatically jump in when fight hits the ground or that, the guy who took his opponent down will NOT be a part of a crowd himself? These are just weird thoughts that people CONTINUOUSLY have. It’s always struck me as a bit odd. Another thing people have the tendency to think is that others won’t jump in if the fight is kept standing. Odd stuff here folks…

(edited 09-14-2004).][/QUOTE]

John it happens.

anway, I have to agree with some comments you made before, the neck and elbow tie up is not only good for following into knees to the face position but its great for side knee also.

I was working with (I am not a trainer but have good knowledge of standing clinch) a couple of my fellow fighters on free days recently. 1st round, I am not taking sides here but I can see where you are coming from when you say you can simply raise your head up and pull out BUT this is a technique that the majority of non grappling (standing grappling or ground) fighters dont even think about, the immediate reaction to someone with no knowledge is to pull back and out which leaves them right open for an upward rising knee to their retreating face. know what I mean?

someone goes for neck & elbow tie up hoping (this is assuming both parties know how to clinch grapple) to get into plumm, what do you do? ok here's one thing you can do, you roll you head back to prevent your neck being pulled down but remember about headbutts, so ideally you want to close the distance between your head and his head so at least you dont have teath or headbutting distance (also John and 1st round, when you teach your students to do neck ties ask them to place their hands on the crown of the opponents head, not the neck, the top back [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] I think you'll find a lot more leverage this way)

....ok beofre I confuse myself.

he is neck and elbow tie up, your head is starting to drop down, ok... the hand which is on his arm (at the elbow) which is around your neck/head, know what i mean? try this, it is unconfortable and hurts enough to make the guy wanna let go. pull his elbow down and push in and up, he should feel sharp pain in his shoulder, with the head/neck had pull his head in towards his arm which is being pushed in , you are like trying to make his head touch his elbow...

haha... does this make sense? This is a good way to get out of a neck & elbow tie up.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Know I’m sorry, but I don’t see how punches to the face or even the body will set up knees. Oh sure, I know PLENTY of ways in which this will happen THEORETICALLY….but I don’t know as many ways that such things occur in the REAL WORLD. Believe me, I’m one who looks to put in his knees when possible and I’m always awaiting such an opportunity. Now in real fights, I’ve seen this done and have learned ways to do this out of real experience. I’ve yet to see knees to the face which are set up directly by punching.

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-14-2004).][/QUOTE]

http://crew.tweakers.net/lunatic/zooi/RamonDekkerHighlight-luna.wmv

go to 00:45 and watch from there. Punches are perfect for leading into knees, neck tie knee strikes and almost any other attack.

oops! you guys are argueing over FACE knee strikes.


[This message has been edited by MuayThai (edited 09-14-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

You are being pendantic John.

Punches don't lead into clinching and knees and elbows?
[/QUOTE]

I never said that. I said that punching attacks won’t directly lead to knees to the face(without grappling of some kind). I had mentioned that grappling was one half of fighting and was a critical skill to have. You see, the point was made (by 1st Round KO) that grappling isn’t important.

Here was his exact quote (regarding his point as to why you don’t need grappling of any sort):

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

lead punches before knees will allow you to land at least 1 extremely hard knee to the face which will in turn allow you to start rapid fire blasting his face and the fight quickly ends...
[/QUOTE]

Essentially meaning that, you won’t need grappling because all you need to do is fire punches, and, that those punches could lead directly into knees to the face. I have stated that I’ve not once seen punches leading directly to knees to the face (unless it’s a jumping knee strike).

My point being that, WITHOUT GRAPPLING, knees to the face are just not a realistic tactic. You have to have a controlling position to land knees to the face on an individual in order to truly launch an effective knee attack. THAT IS GRAPPLING and, it’s just another reason (in a long line of reasons) why I say that grappling is not just important, but a CRITICAL skill to have.

How else are you going to land knees other than by a JUMPING knee strike, which although possible, isn’t something I’d recommend in a no rules setting.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

Punches don't lead into clinching and knees and elbows? What do you do, jump there, how DOES it work in a real fight?
[/QUOTE]

Mark, that was exactly my point. You DON’T just jump there. It takes grappling, which is what 1st Round KO was saying was so unimportant. I was merely stating the opposite.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

More fights stop than go on for pain. I don't beleive you will say pain makes people keep on going...something's got to give eventually.
[/QUOTE]

What I am saying is, the adrenaline surge in a real fight is enough to block many of the pain receptors.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

Then again, you can't hurt some people. Train fighters do keel over in pain. How many boxing "knock outs" are mentally and physically giving up rather than loss of consciousness?
[/QUOTE]

Well, my friend didn’t keel over in pain from a broken arm suffered during a fight. He fought on and won via knock out. Those people are out there. Plus, it depends on what you’re fighting FOR doesn’t it?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

People don't walk away from plane crashes, or at least crashes where the planes fall out of the sky
[/QUOTE]

Now you want to QUANTIFY things. Look, airplane crashes are airplane crashes. I’ll go and find some examples for you bring them back. But, lets not split hairs over something like that. I think my point is easily seen. (Wanna talk about being pedantic…)


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

If the only viable attack is a choke, to be applied against skilled opponents ho looking for trouble, buy a handgun and a humvee. Don't go outside much either.
[/QUOTE]

I never said that the only viable attack was a choke (although it may in fact be one of the best). And I’m not paranoid either. I spoke the truth about the necessity of understanding grappling and that’s it.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

My punches hurt for two reasons - they hit hard enough to do damage, and I know where to hit. Tried breathing with cracked ribs?
[/QUOTE]

That would be assuming that someone could crack my ribs in the first place, and, if my life was in jeopardy brother, you can BET YOUR ASS that I would FIND a way to breathe!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

Horse steroids and PCP cannot make you impervious to difficulty in breathing. [/QUOTE]

Sure, ok, fine, whatever. YOU Mark are capable of just waltzing right in and destroying people with your sh*t. So lets leave you out of this equation and just let the rest of the mortals among us deal with the realities of pain thresholds, k?!


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:
John it happens.

[/QUOTE]

ANYTHING is possible Muay Thai, but to say that everything is probable is another story.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

…anway, I have to agree with some comments you made before, the neck and elbow tie up is not only good for following into knees to the face position but its great for side knee also.[/QUOTE]

Grappling is important for knee strikes. That’s why you see it so much in muay Thai. Without grappling, 90% of knees to the face don’t happen. That was my whole argument against 1st Round KO.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

….1st round, I am not taking sides here but I can see where you are coming from when you say you can simply raise your head up and pull out [/QUOTE]

Not from a front headlock. That was my point.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

also John and 1st round, when you teach your students to do neck ties ask them to place their hands on the crown of the opponents head, not the neck, the top back [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] I think you'll find a lot more leverage this way)
[/QUOTE]

True, more leverage for the Plumm is found by going onto the crown of the head, but I’m not referring to the plumm when speaking of the neck tie – I’m talking about the neck tie (collar tie) found in wrestling. It’s a different animal.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

oops! you guys are argueing over FACE knee strikes. [/QUOTE]

Bingo. Punches can lead to knees for certain. I realize that. Hello!!! What 1st Round KO was saying was that punches can lead directly to knees to the face. That’s ABSURD unless you’re just a foot TALLER than your opponent.


[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-14-2004).]

John, I know adrenaline is powerful. There ares stoires of women liftig up cars to get their babies etc, I don't know if they are true. What I do know is soldiers have gone on to complete missions after being wounded multiple times (google Albert Jacka VC). However, they describe being hit the same as being punched, but it's very hot.

If you have a cracked sternum, broked ribs, sure, you can breathe, but not to the level of intense physical activity. I don't think I have a high pain threshold, but I am sure if a UFC fighter came up vs Tank Abbot, who suffered his injuries, his body would have to go totally anaerobic for the durtation of the fight. This can't happen, he would pass out. There are limits. If your mate dislocated his shoulder or knee, I doubt he could have fought on.

Mark,

I'm not disagreeing with you. My philosophy is just a little different and perhaps it's just one of details and semantics.

In my view, fights are won primarily through two means: Head trauma and structural trauma. In the case of head trauma, that's fairly self explanatory -- it's loss of consciousness (by whatever means).

Structural trauma meaning, breaking or dislocation of "something". That's different than mere "pain". Even in the case of having broken something, people can still fight on even THEN! I say this because people have the tendency to underestimate their opponents. This is especially true with traditional martial artists, as has been my experience as well as the experiences of many other people (not saying that is the case with YOU).

I bring these points up for the rest of the readers here, many of whom think that fighting is just some "push button" affair where "I'll just punch here, here and here and he'll just fall to the ground like a bag of bricks".

That is NOT reality. Promoting any contrary philosophy is irresponsible at best.


-John

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
True, more leverage for the Plumm is found by going onto the crown of the head, but I’m not referring to the plumm when speaking of the neck tie – I’m talking about the neck tie (collar tie) found in wrestling. It’s a different animal.[/QUOTE]


Explain, if you can put it into words, the wrestling neck tie you're talking about.

Is it where you have your elbows kind of controling the opponents collar bones with the hands around the neck squezzing the area on the side of the neck?

ok John go to 'martial arts' forum, I dug something up that is interesting. In your club gallery photos I couldnt help but notice how similar the tie ups you are using were to Thai clinch. So off I went in search of wrestling techniques on the net. It seems you are using Greco Roman wrestling, am I correct?

Collar tie up is in actual fact the same as what we do in Thai clinch

*both hands behind opponent's neck, inside his arms - Thai tie up

*one hand behind opponent's neck, one hand on his arm at elbow - greco collar tie (correct me if I am wrong.

by phil dunlap [QUOTE]Some of the tie ups we use are similar to greco tie ups I have seen especially our counter tie ups.[/QUOTE]

ok seems I we're getting somewhere...

so we have (non sportive) Greco, Thai and Burmese tie ups and clinch wreslting which all have very similar techniques. I did not know that Greco was so similar.

[QUOTE]Controlling the center of gravity.

This is a demonstration technique that I often do to illustrate the importance of controling your opponants pelvic area with a low clinch such as head to chest. have someone a good bit larger than you stand with his arms folded, feet wide and a slight bend in his knees. Place both your hands on his shoulders and tell him to not let you move him. If he is indeed much bigger or stronger than you he may very well push you around. Now try the same thing again only this time place your hands on your partners hips. You will now find it very easy to shove him around. Pushing on the hips not only gives you the advantage of pushing downhill but also negates the strength of the upper body.

"To control the pelvis is to control the center of gravity and to control the center of gravity is to control the man."

From: Phil Dunlap

Owen

It's great to have someone contributing ideas and concepts to this thread. From your Technique descriptions I am thinking you have a bachground in Greco Roman. I am a big fan of some of their tieups and takedowns I have worked out with several world class GR guys and can say their ability to tie someone up in a grappling situation is excellant and their takedowns very functional.

One clarification I need though on the hip pushing Is how do you deal with the elbow flashing on the downward diagonal. The question is a bit of a mind ream as your opponent would need the skill to execute also on the push how do you handle an attempt to break the clinch[/QUOTE]


Very nice stuff. interesting.

jkogas...my apologies for not explaining step by step the process of how pucnhes lead to knees...i thought it was obvious that the 2 were linked by a clinch, expecially since i made the reference to grabbing your opponents head.

if you were confused then please accept my sincerest regrets.

Hi guys --

I'm VERY confused at the moment, but that's primarily because I'm taking some strong muscle relaxers to help my tendonitis.

Forgive me if I don't come back and reply to this thread until later or tomorrow.

Let's just start over again, shall we?

Thanks,

-John

It's nice to see all is well here on the JKD forum. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

- KiDoHae