Forms and Kata for kids

Posted by: lopezma

Forms and Kata for kids - 11/08/07 04:14 AM

I love teaching Tae Kwon Do,and all the kids have fun and learn, BUT when it comes to forms I hear some moans. They do them, although some may need more help than others.
Any ideas to make forms more interesting/fun for kids?
Thanks!
Posted by: tkd_high_green

Re: Forms and Kata for kids - 11/08/07 09:22 AM

Some minor variations we do is to mark the floor with a piece of tape, where the student has to start on. If they don't end up back where you started, pushups!

We've also done our patterns with our eyes closed, which is a riot and very difficult to do without falling over (at least for me anyway), and once we even did our pattern while singing "row row row your boat". Needless to say, that was a very silly class. Make them go as fast as they can or as slow as they can.

If they are groaning when it's time to work on patterns, you might look at what you are doing. Are they sitting down too much? Are they doing them as a group or one on one? Try changing things up. Have some of the higher ranking students help out and work in smaller groups, etc.

Laura
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Forms and Kata for kids - 11/08/07 10:30 AM

Hello Lopezma:

Forms are 1,000% functional. There is nothing esoteric, nothing symbolic, every single movement is completely 100% functional! Children need to be shown at a fundamental level what the pieces are used for... why we want them to learn them! We want them to have good HABITUAL responses to physical actions.

Visually explain, SHOW them how to use the first few movements, then the next, the next, the next piece respectively.... over three months, six months with decent application practice... they will understand "...oh.... this really works..." They need convincing of it.

To hook them, slightly different methods for slightly different age groups. Children love to mimic. They love to test their powers, their strength(s). Test the stances against a gentle pushes, pulls make sure they are correctly done.

Ask them to show the POWER of their form, in the tiny linked pieces. "ok, go from the beginning to the double punch... CRAZY power... c-o-r-r-e-c-t-l-y done". Children passionately believe they understand what, how, why of the form long, long before they actually do.

We need to show them ~don't know it, yet~. Close you eyes, feet only, etc. whatever particular aspect needing work and gets them to watch themselves, pay attention. Depending on the group, the age, there are lots of possibilities.

What age are you working with?

Jeff
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Forms and Kata for kids - 11/08/07 10:41 AM

Hello Laura:

"Pushups".... does not to me sound like a great way to make anyone enthuastic, interested in form practice... respectfully.

Jeff
Posted by: cxt

Re: Forms and Kata for kids - 11/08/07 04:20 PM

lop

Break the kata down.....almost anything you can do in a kata you can do on a heavy bag/focus mitts etc.

By pulling out the individual techniques they might find them more interesting overall....when they can more clearly see what they are doing.

That is of course assuming your not already doing this.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Forms and Kata for kids - 11/08/07 07:09 PM

instead of solo kata, how about alot more 2-person work.

or it might just be that solo kata-based learning is not well suited since there is no interactivity. kids (and adults for that matter) learn best and stay engaged by 'hands on' doing....'playing' as some might call it.
Posted by: lopezma

Re: Forms and Kata for kids - 11/08/07 10:19 PM

Thank you all for the reponse. Keep them coming.
LOVE the "crazy power" and tape idea. I will try the song kata. If it works I will call it Kata Kareoki Klass.

I've done all the other things mentioned plus a couple of others.
I have INCREDIBLE sparring kids in point and grappling. (1st & 2nd places), good at kata (3rd - 5th, but never a 1st). Adults are the opposite.
I myself do well in both (1st and 2nd - one 3rd)
That is why I am reaching out for help. Winning or losing lies with me, I need to do something to help them finally get a first place.
Only three first places in forms. one adult - one teen - and myself!

This is how I usually teach a forms class:
1. After bowing in, we have a time of warm up.
2. Then the entire class does a demo form together.
3. Class forms a circle, then 1 - 3 kids do there individual form.
4. Circle stands up and we have a couple of kickboxing combinations.
5. Circle sits down, 1 - 3 kids do there individual form.
6. Circle stands up and we do calisthenics, grappling drills, basically something different that will last only about 30 sec.- 40 sec.
7 - ??? The pattern continues and somewhere in the middle of class and at the end of class we do the demo form.
We bow and they are dismissed.

IMP. NOTE: As they perform their form and make a mistake we teach them through example. We walk them through the form, and if they are still having problems, I will send them over to a Jr. Instructor (Teen or Adult) to work individually as the class continues.

Please share your kids Poomse-Kata-Form Class structure.
Thanks again for the info.
Posted by: oldman

Re: Forms and Kata for kids - 11/08/07 10:51 PM

I play different attention games with forms. In one after bringing the kids to the ready position, I either call a number or a word. If I call a number they must respond by doing the next move as fast as possible. If I say a word they must hold their position and not move. It gets tricky because they have to listen....

One! Two! Tree!!! four! five! STICKS!! HEAVEN!! LATE!!!
nine! Hen!!! eleven! Hippopotimus!!!!!

If they move on a word you can give them push ups or have them sit out on the edge of the mat till everyone but one is eliminated. If people stall because they are not sure or deliberately wait to see if others go the are out also.

You can also jack with them a bit by saying things like," I'm not sure who is going out next but I think its gonna be one of you two.(Technically you just said two numbers). If no one moved they are all out and I win!!
Posted by: JM2007

Re: Forms and Kata for kids - 11/09/07 07:25 AM

Depending on the age group (and more importantly,whether or not they would understand), you can teach them the bunkai of the kata. This is the same as teaching them the actual application as mentioned above, except it goes a bit further than that as well. When practicing bunkai, you have to know, understand, and be able to employ the correct application with the correct timing, distancing, focus, and power. Of course, with kids (and beginners) you should start all of this off slowly and gently, but as time goes on they should eventually be doing full speed and power bunkai by the black belt or equivalent level. If they are not properly focused, someone will be hit (hence why you start off slowly and gently for the first few years).

NOTE: Not to insult anyone's intelligence, but since we are all from different arts using different terminology, "bunkai" is the actual application of the kata. When performing it, you would have several students posing as attackers and actually attack the person performing the kata, who then performs the kata in the correct manner, blocking the attacks and striking as appropriate. The "attacker" obviously needs to know the know the kata (or at least his/her portion of it) to be sure they are attacking in the manner the kata is blocking. Basically, multiple attacker pre-arranged sparring.

I hope this helps...respectfully,

Jason
Posted by: tkd_high_green

Re: Forms and Kata for kids - 11/09/07 01:38 PM

Quote:

"Pushups".... does not to me sound like a great way to make anyone enthuastic, interested in form practice... respectfully.




That all depends on your view of pushups and how they are handed out. I have one kid that actually cheers when you give him pushups. By giving them a reward/punishment it changes the drill to be more challenging and even competitive. Humor is the key.

Laura
Posted by: TeK9

Re: Forms and Kata for kids - 11/09/07 02:44 PM

I am not the biggest fan of forms when it comes to learning certain attributes, however, since this isn't a debate I wont go into that. I taught taekwondo for a little over 5 years.

Like the original poster our school had some very gifted students with a talent for sparring.

One of the ways I taught forms to both children and adults was to have them enjoy the beauty of ther pattern when done in unison among other students. While this is down in all schools I added my own twist. I had four students stand in the center of class. Each student stood close only a foot away from each other all facing a different direction. I had them go over their form while in synchronization with each other. Because all forms in taekwondo begin and end in the same spot having students do them close unison is a splendor to watch. And makes it fun for them.
Posted by: lopezma

Re: Forms and Kata for kids - 11/11/07 10:06 PM

Quote:

Depending on the age group (and more importantly,whether or not they would understand), you can teach them the bunkai of the kata. This is the same as teaching them the actual application as mentioned above, except it goes a bit further than that as well. When practicing bunkai, you have to know, understand, and be able to employ the correct application with the correct timing, distancing, focus, and power. Of course, with kids (and beginners) you should start all of this off slowly and gently, but as time goes on they should eventually be doing full speed and power bunkai by the black belt or equivalent level. If they are not properly focused, someone will be hit (hence why you start off slowly and gently for the first few years).

NOTE: Not to insult anyone's intelligence, but since we are all from different arts using different terminology, "bunkai" is the actual application of the kata. When performing it, you would have several students posing as attackers and actually attack the person performing the kata, who then performs the kata in the correct manner, blocking the attacks and striking as appropriate. The "attacker" obviously needs to know the know the kata (or at least his/her portion of it) to be sure they are attacking in the manner the kata is blocking. Basically, multiple attacker pre-arranged sparring.

I hope this helps...respectfully,

Jason




I appreciate the way you word that. I have practiced bunkai, but very little with the children. We do practice it, especially in the adult class. I will do more bunkai with the children (ages 7-12). Let us see what happens. That may make the difference. Again, thank you all for the suggestions.
Posted by: lopezma

Re: Forms and Kata for kids - 11/12/07 10:22 PM

BUNKAI! Just got done with the forms class. As I said before, we practice with adults and teens, but rarely with the children. So I was excited to get to class today! We practiced bunkai; they payed more attention to their technique as they "beat me" me and some other older students.
I saw more smiles during this class. Smiles and giggles. Overall it was great!
I will be doing the other suggestions as time goes on, thank you to all!
Posted by: JM2007

Re: Forms and Kata for kids - 11/12/07 11:40 PM

Awesome...I am glad they enjoyed it. The neat thing is that they will learn the applications better and be able to practice their distancing, control, focus, etc. at the same time. One other good thing about bunkai is that, as you become more advanced, you understand more and learn more about what certain techniques are and how they can be applied. For instance, in the last two techniques of Heian Nidan (Pinan Shodan in Okinawan Karate-Do and Pyong An Ee Dan in traditional Tae Kwon Do), beginning students believe they are performing an upper rising block (because that is what they are taught to perform), when actually (at least many believe), they are performing an arm break.

The ability to teach young students about martial arts using kata is awesome, and what's even better is that as they progress, they learn more and more about the kata. For instance, as I mentioned before, they can be taught one thing, which later develops into something else. An advanced student looks at, and performs, a kata completely different than a beginning student.

Just my thoughts...sorry to get off subject, but kata practice is so misunderstood that I thought I would throw that in...especially since we were talking about bunkai.

Congrats once again, and keep up the good work.

Respectfully, Jason
Posted by: JM2007

Re: Forms and Kata for kids - 11/13/07 12:48 AM

Sorry all, when I said "For instance, in the last two techniques of Heian Nidan (Pinan Shodan in Okinawan Karate-Do and Pyong An Ee Dan in traditional Tae Kwon Do)..." I should have mentioned that they are the EXACT SAME form, or kata/poomse/hyung, and called Heian Nidan in Japanese Karate-Do, Pinan Shodan in Okinawan Karate-Do, and Pyong An Ee Dan (Pyong 2) in CLASSICAL (as opposed to traditional) Tae Kwon Do.

My apologies...Jason
Posted by: lopezma

Re: Forms and Kata for kids - 11/13/07 01:26 AM

Understood! When I first started in TKD 16 years ago, we spent most of our time sparring because we wanted to win all the tournaments. That and we were going to go to the Olympics. Our forms were (and are) not sloppy, they were correctly done and very strong, but we never (NEVER) practiced bunkai. I am just now beggining my taining in Karate (Goju-Ryu) which has an incredible emphasis on kata. I guess that is why all this started. Thank you!
Posted by: lopezma

Re: Forms and Kata for kids - 12/13/07 01:21 AM

Hey CXT I added the pads to a weapons form and kids loved it. The ones that have difficulty picking up, got it better. After the contact hits, I told them to focus as if the pad was still there and it worked. It was a success!

Thank you all!
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Forms and Kata for kids - 12/13/07 03:10 PM

Hello Oldman:

<<(Technically you just said two numbers). If no one moved they are all out and I win!!

THAT is E-V-I-L, and I love it!!!!!

Jeff
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Forms and Kata for kids - 12/13/07 03:21 PM

Hello Laura:

As you know, to some degree we have ~different approaches~ from one another , but several sessions ago (a class I was assisting), one of the teachers made the very idle threat of push-ups, which nearly caused a full blow riot, of "....YEAAAAAAAAH...." [Which shocked the heck out of all of us.] We laughed and used it, and some loved it. Not on the list of our preferred methods... but understand some respond to it.

The only thing we could figure why they would actively ask for them was insufficent recess and too long chained in absolute silece to their desks. Pushups, get to be physical, and loud simultainously.

Apologies for the digression,
Jeff