Tardiness

I am a 16 yr old black belt in Shorin Ryu karate. For the last 8 months I have been assisting my Sensei with teaching the kids' class. I supervise, offer help, and take class when Sensei is unable to make it. One of the students has been getting progressively later and later; it's now to the point that she is coming in 20 minutes late for an hour long class! I understand that this is not necessarily my position to act seeing as Sensei is the teacher of the class, but when he's absent and I'm in charge, how should I deal with this situation? To other teachers out there, what is your policy on tardiness?

I do nothing for tardiness because its their lost, they are payign the money and not getting most out of it and she won't be able to advance. I would either ignore her and let her train but not let her advance then she will realize she needs to come to class on time. Another method i have seen used is having them do crunches and push ups for punishment but i don't see the usefulness in doing that.

Reishiki (ceremonial manners - etiquette) are a vital part of traditional martial arts training. If a student is late for class they are to sit (seiza, on knees) and wait for the instructor to invite them to join the class.

Well, that's the traditional way, anyhow. I realize that many dojo do not have the same rules that I am accustomed to.

I think the underlying problem is the fact that a student is also a paying customer. They are paying for the training so it's their loss if they're late. You can't very well be too hard on your more casual students or else you won't have enough students to keep the doors open. Oh well, it's the society we live in.

Given the fact that I couldn't tell the student that it is exceptionally rude and disrespectful to show up late for class repeatedly, and tell them to either show up on time or not at all - I'd try to talk to the person. Maybe they have a scheduling conflict with class or work, and need to look at changing their schedule. If it's just that they are chronically late for no reason other than sloth then I'd ask them to try to get to class on time because they are missing out on warm ups ect. that are important.

Talk about it with your sensei first before doing anything, though. They are, afterall, his students.

In the end you can't really force someone to get there on time. All you can do is encourage them.

--Dallas

Well what we used to do for people who were late in my Doujang was give them 15 rounds of the basketball court to run and then 20 push ups every five rounds. On top of this we'd get right into something interesting which they couldn't participate in until they finished their rounds.

I had this happen to me on more than one occasion. (Doing this is torture while watching everyone else doing some *really cool* drills)

It's really their loss if they miss part of the lesson, my instructor tried to emphasise this to them by making them miss more of the lesson so they got more of what they *wanted*. After a while I learned to turn up a good 15 minutes early.

If money's really an issue with regard to teaching a student in your Dojo, however, then I wouldn't follow this course of action. My Doujang was a non-profit community group activity, so we had enough drop-outs who couldn't cope with the discipline and focus on respect and obedience. To be honest, my instructor was a drill instructor in the army so he ran his Doujang the same way. No talking or moving when called to attention unless told we could be "at ease". He did this even with little children (as I was when I started studying TKD), often with much success. Looking back on it, I reckon the general idea was:

If you don't like it, take a hike.

[This message has been edited by Leo_E_49 (edited 03-20-2005).]

While I agree that its their loss if they miss the class, for me it is more what their lateness demonstrates, and that is a lack of respect for the isntructor and the other students.

At the school I teach, first three times late its push ups and a stern warning.

After the third time, I make it very clear. Late again, and you will not be allowed to train in that class.

Period.

Korb

is it the student's fault that they are late, or are they reliant on a lazy mom or dad to get up off the couch and take them to class?

I wouldn't punish the student if they are genuinely interested in the class and can't control the circumstances of their transportation.

but, if they either have their license, or just aren't interested, then i'd let them sit and watch a few times. You're here on time, or you're not here at all.

When I teach, be the session for an hour 1 1/2 hours 2 hours, whatever, I construct the lesson principles beforehand.

I expect the students to warm themselves up prior to the lesson and be ready to train hard.

If they miss the first ten minutes of the lesson they will have not heard the intent of the lesson which I explain at the begining, together with principles we are going to work on.

If they're late, go home. I'm not interupting the class to repeat what all the other students heard because they had the courtesy to be on time.

I understand that accidents happen etc. but if it's a consistent problem explain that it's unacceptable and if they're going to be late, turn round and don't bother.

Johnl

(A self confessed time freak)

With children reliant on parents it's best to have a word with mum or dad if they are consistently late. Sometimes however mum or dad are doing what they can and have lives to live too. That said late arrivals do disrupt things and it can be an awkward issue. I tend to remind the late comers that they are missing out and it seems to have worked.

As OneHeartWay first pointed out, it may be there's circumstances beyond her control - but I doubt it, if the lateness keeps increasing.

Talk to her (yes, it IS your place. You're a BB now, and should be expected to reinforce the rules) and ask her for her reasons. However, it is NOT your place to tell her to take a hike. That's up to your sensei - she's his student (and customer).

We give ten pushups for every minute late.
We also tell the class if one goes down we all do. Builds teamwork and discipline. All are adults so eventually everyone is a little late. The most we had everyone do was 300 throughout the 2hr class. We also do it with them.
I wouldn't do this to kids,it's most likely the parents fault.

If my kids are late due to transportation problems, (parents giving them a ride, whatever) I don't penalize them for something they can't help.

If they are just standing around when I call the class to order, and miss the call, or are being a slowpoke about changing clothes, they must wait to be invited into the class, and then do push-ups.

I give 50 push ups regardless of who's fault it is. Parents need to learn that they are being disrepectful by not getting their kids their on time. The push ups punish the parents as well by their kids complaining and if they complain enough then you will either loose a student or see them their on time. & If they are consistantly late they can sit and watch class or go home !

I am so sick of seeing Instructors kiss ass to parents, Your teachings should be about the art & our ways, who cares what day and age we live in. ITS CALLED MARTIAL ARTS ! Now be Martial !!

By being strict, breeds disipline, respect, integrity, if parents dont like it then their's the frickin door ! Their are plenty of schools that will be gald to take their money and let the kids show up when ever they want, let them breed the lazy, rude, cocky crappy wanna-B martial artist that give the good ones bad names.

If it's really a kids class, then I have my doubts that it's entirely the kid's fault. And I have difficulty penalizing children for the actions of their parents.

I know this sounds harsh, but I dont give a damn whose fault it is.

Late is late.

I have had parents say to me that it isnt fair to make the kids do push ups for being late when its the parents fault.

I then politely suggest that the parent then go into the dojo and do the push ups. If they want to take the rap for it, I am perfectly willing to let the kid off the hook.

I have yet to have a parent take me up on it, and very rarely are the kids late twice.

G

I'd advocate more of the approach of talking to the parents, explaining the kid's not gonna advance if he doesn't get what he needs from class. Start time is x o'clock, they must be in class, warmed up, and ready to go by that time.

I'm not going to punish the child for the idiocy of his parents. I don't think you can preach fairness and justice as so many dojos do, while being unjust by punishing the wrong person.

First off, you have Dan rank. When you run the class because Sensei can't make it, you are due the respect of a Sensei.

Second, if this is a kid, find out if it is the parents fault or the kid's fault. If it's the parents, talk to them, if it's the kid, she needs to wait, in seiza, off to the side until you acknowledge her and bow her into class. Pushups wouldn't be a bad idea either. She will eventually show up on time or be getting really strong.

If this is an adult, follow through with making her wait, giving her pushups, and make sure she knows that you are to be respected.

Hello karatechick10:

As an assistant, your job is to support and enforce the rules which your instructor lays down. Ask him/her directly what they would like you to do (if anything) about this type of situation... and this situation in particular. There are many excellent reasons a child might be late. There are also many poor reasons to explain their lateness. I have serious problems with punishment methods... however that is a major philosophical difference between myself and others with different perspectives and views.

Two or three conversations are required. You with the instructor. You with the child. You with the parents if it comes to that... but that is better handled by the adult instructor...

By the way what on earth do you mean when you say you take the class when your Sensei can't make it to the kids class :0 ???
What the blazes does that mean??? The job a the teacher is to teach, and be in the room. You may be very good, but 16 is still too young (IMHO) to be in charge of large groups, much less solo and in charge!

Can you drive? Can you administer first aid to a child with an emergency? That's why at least one adult is necessary.. and hoefulyy one with lots, and lots of backup.

Respectfully Worried,
jeff



[This message has been edited by Ronin1966 (edited 04-07-2005).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ronin1966:

By the way what on earth do you mean when you say you take the class when your Sensei can't make it to the kids class :0 ???
What the blazes does that mean??? The job a the teacher is to teach, and be in the room. You may be very good, but 16 is still too young (IMHO) to be in charge of large groups, much less solo and in charge!

Can you drive? Can you administer first aid to a child with an emergency? That's why at least one adult is necessary.. and hoefulyy one with lots, and lots of backup.

Respectfully Worried,
jeff

[This message has been edited by Ronin1966 (edited 04-07-2005).][/QUOTE]

My Sensei has a job that sometimes requires him to miss a class. He occasionally has meetings in the cities (2 hours away). It is not a regular occurrance, but at times he is not able to teach for some reason. He recently got married and went on his honeymoon; I took class. The group of kids is not large, there's only 6 of them. I can drive. I know basic first aid, and there are always at least 2 parents present. I am quite capable of handling anything that may come up.

I can't really say I have a problem with the Sensei missing the class occasionally as long as he does not make a habit of it. It's not like you get rich off of teaching martial arts (unless you run a mcdojo) so having a "real" job is pretty much a necessity. And sometimes real jobs require that you stay late for something.

That is, after all, why you have assistant instructors - they pick up the slack when the need arises.

It's also good training for those assistant instructors. How can they ever get better at teaching on their own unless they teach on their own?

out of the blue, I've recently got a kitten, now this may seem out of place, but a kitten is like a kid, they're transitioning from a baby to a young whatever it is, while it's important to press values on them you don't need to be harsh to be effective

I'm chronically late myself, but even so it doesn't mean I won't willingly work hard and try to make up for it, I'm late for things I can't stand waiting another minute for


here's a tickler though, as respect is important in martial arts, one should be careful not to disrespect their supposed beliefs due to a personal hostility

if a person told me to get out because I was chronically late, I would be very close to certain they are below me, or in some cases, if I thought they weren't, I would work very hard to show that I mean no disrespect, even when I am late like always


the common assumption is that the person doesn't care about the lesson, which is thusly considered disrespectful, in my mcdojo, a way of doing things was that a late person would bow onto the mat, the whole training area was matted, and stand patiently until the instructor waved them in for the next lesson that could be explained to them and everyone

if a person already there needed a partner, or individual training and practice of something or other was being done at the time, the late person would be brought in, because it's a teacher's job to teach, and for a true teacher, it's basically a sin not to teach, so to refuse to teach based on lateness, well... it's a no go, this instructor was very patient and obviously very good, the student simply didn't get in the way and was incorporated into the class when convenient thus fulfilling the instructor's duty

personally I am almost always late for almost everything I do, and I mean everything