No Win Situation

Sensies from traditional lines of martial arts will have been taught by their teachers, and thier teachers taught by the teachers before them and so the morals that they are promoting have been modified and encouraged for hundreds of years and possibly more.

I think you are right, Shonuff, in saying that teachers should not be able to force their views upon a pupil but instead they should promote general ideas like generosity, politeness or kindness.

Also I believe that teachers should be able to refuse to teach indeviduals if they are violent in nature, arrogant or completely ignorant to what the teacher tries to tell them.

They should not however go out of their way to see what they are like outside of the classes. If they are kind in class the teacher should not try to find out what they are like outside of lessons. Where I come from we call this stalking.

However in gradings where students are promoted to the next level in their martial art the teacher should be aloud to ask a student what they would do in certain situations. Eg. A man drops something in front of you without noticing and is walking off, what do you do? Give it back to him of course.

These are only my views however.

Best Regards Rk-Yong Gi Do


[This message has been edited by Rk-Yong Gi Do (edited 03-03-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Rk-Yong Gi Do (edited 03-03-2005).]

Shonuff,

I agree, every situation is different, and balance is the key. But I was talking about kids and young adults. Fully grown adults are different. I agree with you, adults and young adults *should* know better. Some adults who should know better, unfortunately don't. But I don't say to them what I think about their behaviour and the way they treat their kids. It is not my place. But when their kid brings their baggage from home into the dojo, it becomes my problem, and the problem of every other kid in and outside of the dojo. I can't tell the parent how they should run their lives, on or off the mat, but I would most certainly have to say something (not sure what - it depends on the situation and context), if their outside life is affecting them or their child's behavior in the dojo.

[QUOTE]
why an MA teacher thinks that he/she is in anyway qualified to say to another adult, "damn your experiences, judgement and choices, I know best, you should act like this".
...
I am talking about a teacher who decides that it is his responsibility to guide students for no other reason than that they come to his class, i.e. The teacher who does not feel the need to allow a personal bond to develop before offering such guidance, or who tries to force such bonds for the purpose of becoming a guide....
[/QUOTE]

I think you are putting a rather harsh spin on how a MA teacher would approach the situation with an adult. At no time did I state, suggest or imply what you've just said. In fact, I agreed with you on this point - it would be inappropriate for the teacher to do so - under these circumstances.

[QUOTE]
why are we assuming that an MA teacher is any wiser than a student?
[/QUOTE]

I am not. At no time did I make this assumption or even a statement to that effect.

[QUOTE]
The teacher must have respect for the knowlsedge experience and understanding of the student as well as the student having the same respect for the teacher.
[/QUOTE]

No argument from me here.

[QUOTE]
The difference is I am for respect without "deference" in matters not pertaining to martial arts technique or philosophy. Respect and humility when he tells you, "lower stance", but when he tells you "change your ways" (politely, indirectly or any other way) he crosses the line...
[/QUOTE]

Ah, but isn't most MA philosophy socio-culturally biased? Is it not interwoven in the fabric of "life"? Is MA not a reflection of life and how we as MAist deal with the vissicitudes of life's journey?

For argument's sake: Kid takes MA. Goes to school one day and punches a girl in the chest coz she was "pissing him off".

Or how about this? Adult student is a known wife-basher. In the dojo, his behaviour and performance is exemplary. But when he goes home, some little thing irritates him and he goes off the handle, loses it and uses wife as punching bag.

OK, a somewhat contrived example, but plausible and not very far from the truth. Do you get "involved" at some level, or not? If yes, why and if no, why not?

Note: Both events happen outside of class. You come to know about it (either 1st or 2nd hand), or have been approached by someone voicing their concerns about such persons learning MA from you, and exhibiting violent behaviour outside of the class.

What if kid grows to become that adult in the 2nd example? Because you did nothing, said nothing about their behaviour from the beginning.

What would YOU do?

[QUOTE]
Understand that when someone tells you (discreetly or not) how to act, thats exactly what they are saying, that I (teacher) knows best.
[/QUOTE]

Is it? I don't think so. Perhaps they see something (so obvious) that the person is blind and deaf to? I agree, it is a fine line.

[QUOTE]
I dont feel the old oriental cultural structures are relevant enough in modern times for us to just swallow them and assume they are right (different debate).
[/QUOTE]

I agree, different debate, but since you brought it up... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

It is easy for an outsider to say this is not relevant to them. I happen to be an oriental of oriental descent. So it is relevant to me. However, it would not be appropriate for me to impose my cultural influences on an external culture, and I don't. Even so, there are times and situations when the "prime directive" must be ignored. The line must be drawn between what is generally socially acceptible behaviour and what is not. Or do we ignore what is going on, and pretend it is none of our business, because it lies outside of our domain of control? Where is the budo in that?

[QUOTE]
Some people are happy with the family, philosophy, behaviour patterns that they already have.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, and ignorance is bliss for some too.

I can see your point of view though...and I agree: neither has the right to judge or interfere with each others lives outside of the dojo, unless invited to, or through familiarity. But I think it is one extreme to suggest that we all live happily in our little bubble, insulated from everything outside the dojo, or the other extreme of poking your nose in other people's lives and business outside the dojo.

As you say, balance is the key.

First let me say I don't agree with any of this, so there it is. I think what this discussion is a modern look at Martial Arts. I wonder how many of Itosu's students thought that he wasn't wise on and off the mat? I wonder how many of O'Sensei students thought they were his equal, except on the mat. Can you see Funakosho's students, Okazaki's students thinking they knew as much as their Instructors, on or off the mat. What has changed is the student to teacher relationship. We are not in the old days, and things have evolved, but the relationship beteen the two has changed drastically for the worst I think. People want to be peoples equal. We are not!!!The Sensei's of the past went through different life experiences, then the students did. I feel they were indeed on a different level, mentally, physically, and spiritually. I feel not only are my Sensei physically superior, but mentally as well. One of my Sensei had a stroke and I still wouldn't take him on, and mentally, I will never be as fit.

The Martial Arts process that we go through is a different life experience. We see things others don't, many times way before something happens. I had an employer once hire me on the spot because of my Martial training. He said he loved martial artists they work well on their own(kata?)need little supervision(discipline)and strive to do things the best they could. Its the process of training that makes us different. Look at the dedication and sacrafices we do. Telling me that a couch potato, who watches American Idol and survivor and eats fritos is my equal is a laugh. So I think this whole discussion is off. Martial students bring more to the table than others who don't train. Tell me something is life as demanding as your Black Belt test? You are pushed to the edge of your being, to see how far you can push yourself, and still try to please a board of teachers. Tell me who else pushes themselves on a nightly basis. Not everyone who trains has this, but for the most part, the longer you train, the wiser you get, if you do it for real. I don't think people today, want the arts like those in the past, so the new group of people are not as dedicated and don't want to make it their lives like the old masters. But those that do I think are not on the same page as your average person. My Black Belt test made my wife sick to her stomach and she almost cried at how I was thrashed around, beaten to a pulp and pushed to the edge. The 3 hour questioning was harder than a lawyer doing it, and my wife was dying inside at what I was going through, yet it was a defining moment in my life, I was pushed way beyond what my body could do, and I made it and did well. Not everyone has the opportunity to experience this, and it makes me wiser for haven gone through it.

Wow.

Senseilou, I have read your post, and please pardon me for saying so, but it truly does reek of arrogance.

To claim that, simply by virtue of being in the martial arts, we are better than people who are not is not only arrogant, but just plain wrong.

Now, I am not going follow the road that takes this conversation back into another cultyre 'X' number of years ago. This isnt another culture and this is today. I cannot speak to another time and another place.

I see in your post thought processes that are not only illfounded but dangerous as well, but let me clarify.

It is COMPLETELY at the discretion of the student whether or not they afford the intructor the kind of loyalty and fealty your are talking about. It is not for the instructor to expect that kind of devotion.

To speak to another point, is it not the goal of every instructor to have their student surpass them in every way? If my instructor and I ever went at it, I know I would wipe the floor with him, and there is no shame on either his or my part in saying that. I am 20 years younger and 5 times more fit than he is. It only makes sense.

I see the kind of blind allegiance you are asking for as dangerous, almost cult-like behavior.

I do not expect my students to follow me blindly or without subjective ongoing evaluation of my skill and ability, and I do not follow anyone without the same thing.

And simply because someone is more skilled in the arts does not make them more skilled in the lessons of life. The parrallels between the MA and life are far less telling than many MA would like to believe.

Contrary to popular beliefs, MA are nothing more special or elevated than anyone else. This nonsense about the all knowiing MA instructor is just that.

Nonsense.

NOw, maybe there are some out there that DO deserve this kind of loyalty, but that is something that has to be judged on an individual basis, not simply becuase someone happens to strap a black belt around their waste.

We are people, JUST LIKE everyone else. we should be judged on the same merits and afforded the same critisisms and courties.

Galen

[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
First let me say I don't agree with any of this, so there it is. I think what this discussion is a modern look at Martial Arts. I wonder how many of Itosu's students thought that he wasn't wise on and off the mat? I wonder how many of O'Sensei students thought they were his equal, except on the mat. Can you see Funakosho's students, Okazaki's students thinking they knew as much as their Instructors, on or off the mat. What has changed is the student to teacher relationship. We are not in the old days, and things have evolved, but the relationship beteen the two has changed drastically for the worst I think. People want to be peoples equal. We are not!!!The Sensei's of the past went through different life experiences, then the students did. I feel they were indeed on a different level, mentally, physically, and spiritually. I feel not only are my Sensei physically superior, but mentally as well. One of my Sensei had a stroke and I still wouldn't take him on, and mentally, I will never be as fit.

The Martial Arts process that we go through is a different life experience. We see things others don't, many times way before something happens. I had an employer once hire me on the spot because of my Martial training. He said he loved martial artists they work well on their own(kata?)need little supervision(discipline)and strive to do things the best they could. Its the process of training that makes us different. Look at the dedication and sacrafices we do. Telling me that a couch potato, who watches American Idol and survivor and eats fritos is my equal is a laugh. So I think this whole discussion is off. Martial students bring more to the table than others who don't train. Tell me something is life as demanding as your Black Belt test? You are pushed to the edge of your being, to see how far you can push yourself, and still try to please a board of teachers. Tell me who else pushes themselves on a nightly basis. Not everyone who trains has this, but for the most part, the longer you train, the wiser you get, if you do it for real. I don't think people today, want the arts like those in the past, so the new group of people are not as dedicated and don't want to make it their lives like the old masters. But those that do I think are not on the same page as your average person. My Black Belt test made my wife sick to her stomach and she almost cried at how I was thrashed around, beaten to a pulp and pushed to the edge. The 3 hour questioning was harder than a lawyer doing it, and my wife was dying inside at what I was going through, yet it was a defining moment in my life, I was pushed way beyond what my body could do, and I made it and did well. Not everyone has the opportunity to experience this, and it makes me wiser for haven gone through it.[/QUOTE]


Jesse Owen.

Do you mean Jesse Owens - hero of the 1936 Berlin Olympics?

Can you elaborate more on how this is relevant to this discussion?

For some reason I cant seem to view posts I have made or any ones after unless I hit reply to topic and look over the topic review?

Jesse Owens proved once and for all that while the individual may be superior, no one group is greater than another. Like the survivor watching couch potato, he was underestimated by the opposition.

I was contemplating lou's viewpoint and contrasting it to others I'd heard and Mr Owens achievements came to mind. To be honest I was content to let lou's words speak for themselves but the simple symbolic response inspired me.

Thank you Senseilou for this interesting discussion. I believe the modern capitolist age has blended the roles of the Sensei. In the good teacher you will see strong resemblance to the old world sensei for whom you worked and with whom you lived. Instead of working on Sensei's farm, we pay training fees and we teach in Sensei's school.

Since we don't live with Sensei, we actually have a life apart from the dojo. This is a great divider too. It also means that Sensei has the control, mentorship, guideing power that we vest him/her with. We are not as dependent and the authority is not automatic.

For my own life, for example, there is dojo reality. In the dojo, I know very well who my superiors are and I am careful not to disrespect them. Outside the dojo, I don't regard myself as inferior to anyone.

There are also the fee for service Sensei where there is little more connectedness than one might have with a repair person in the house. Without connectedness, it is hard to convey the traditional values learned in the study of the martial arts.

In a short term teaching encounter, such as a few years or less, families expect less in terms of the relationship with Sensei. It is also true that it would be hard to maintain the long term association without the relatedness.

For myself, I've had several different kinds of teachers.
We have a culture of many choices. Day schools, martial arts schools, religious organizations, scouts, parents, sports coaches and so on, all compete to train character into their charges. What is properly the role of Sensei?

I think there is a proper place for all the roles. The same sensei will be different things to different people and the role will shift over time with the same student. While all of your illustrations are very true, I seem to come to a different conclusion. Rather than describe it as "no win" I regard it as "more and different ways to win".

A man who I respect very much, who I played football under, is at deaths door with terminal cancer. This man did not get involved in every detail in my life, but when I decided, against his advice, to play football, he pushed me as hard as I could be pushed. Therein lies where a sensei needs to be. He is involved as much as he needs to be. There is a middle ground, and for some people that still won't be good enough. Those people just need to find someone else, or not study the MA.

My Sifu is the same kind of man as coach is. He truly cares about his students, not just because we are his source of income, but because the ones who do stick around are going to be a part of something bigger. We do help teach classes. We do help when maintenance is needed on the dojo. And he doesn't go to deep in our personal lives.

When coach dies, I'm going to mourn the loss of a great coach and mentor, and a good friend.

When Sifu dies...

I've had my share of martial arts "teachers" including some excellent ones that positively gave me more than my money's worth. I am very pleased to have studied with them. And then I've had my Sensei- for whom I'd do just about anything.

My "Sensei" is a little less than half my age. One day, several years ago when I was in the mid-level color ranks, he was trying to teach me some stock self-defense moves against a front choke or attempted front choke in motion. Out of the clear blue, I started to cry. I did not want to cry. I wanted to learn my lessons and practice the material. After several attempts, it was obvious that it wasn't going to happen easily. Embarrassed a bit, I told Sensei what was happening to me and why I was crying. Sensei stood a respectful distance away, and listened. He let me be in control of if I wanted to move on to something else, continue with this, and if so, how fast, how intense, just the approach, whatever. I wanted to get through the whole thing. I didn't want to leave there conquored by it. He let me manage the situation my way. We worked on the choking drills. I got them, barely, but I got them before I left the dojo that day.

Sensei helped me prepare for my black belt. He has seen me through every crisis I've had since I've been a black belt. I'm sure that during some episodes of tough "martial arts life lessons", he has struggled for me as much as I have struggled with the tough lesson itself. He is SENSEI.

Thank you Sensei Cody.

I think the best teacher is a good leader, show both technical prowess and the people will know you have what it takes to teach them something, show understanding, patience, compassion and determination, and they will eventually learn and respect you

if it's all about mentality, those with it already, or who are not interested in it will get bored, if it's all about skill, those with it or who are not interested in it will get bored


if you teach both at once in an interwoven lesson of life, there's no way to seperate it, each part of the lesson exists to complement the other parts of the lesson


that's what I've learned from my teaching people a little, it wasn't in martial arts, but good leaders are good leaders