how would other instructors handle this student?

Apologies in advance for the length of this post, but I would love some feedback from experienced instructors as to how to handle one of my students.

I am a Blue Belt in my style, and instruct the Juniors and Beginners in my dojo. Most of them are great kids, and we have a lot of fun. Gets a little crazy sometimes, but they are learning.

I have one student who is proving problematic, however. I have NEVER seen someone with less physical coordination and muscle tone than this kid (Age 11). We work basic blocks from a horse stance, and somehow he manages to get his whole body into a simple inward block. His spine seems to be like jello, and he somehow ends up glancing at the ceiling when throwing a simple forward punch. After 6-8 months I am still trying to explain the concepts of "straight back, head level, look at your target."

Figuring that he's gonna be the target of choice for schoolyard bullies, I had another Blue Belt work with him on a bag on his punches. The student, ("J" for privacy,) was punching the bag, and my fellow Blue Belt ("A") was standing behind it, lightly tapping at J. when he let his head guard down. Well, A. went to tap J., who flinched and caught a fingertip NEAR, not IN his eye. (Didn't even leave a red spot.)You'd have thought someone had shot his dog and insulted J's mother. Hand and feet protectors went flying in all directions, and he ran for the door screaming for his mom to get in the car, he was quitting, they were going home,etc. Mom grabbed him and it took her, A., and I all three to get him stopped, and wrestled to the ground to find out what exactly had happened. While we were "talking him down," he was hiding behind his mother's leg like a three-year old, and it took 15 minutes to get him calm enough to speak clearly. Turns out J. "doesn't like to hit people, or to be hit."

Sifu spoke with his mom after I had explained to him what had happened, (He was teaching another class at the time.)telling her that if this is how J. reacts to being hit, that M. A. is probably not where he belongs. She and J. think he can get over it, and he keeps coming and cheerfully doing things wrong, while I wait for the next meltdown. This kid will wander away while Sifu is talking to him, gets distracted by dust in the air, and loves to tell me about video games when we are working on kicks.

I hate to give up on a student, since my Sifu never gave up on me, but this kid is what Sifu calls an "energy vampire." I get exhausted trying to keep him on track and learning, and it takes time from students who are really more suited to M.A.

I realize that ultimately, it will be Sifu's call what to do with him, but I'd like to hear any thoughts experienced instructors have.

Wow, that sounds like a tough cookie. Kids are a strange bunch in general and this youth appears to be more challenging then most. Having not met the kid I can only offer this:

He sounds a bit socially backwards with poor impulse control. This may be related to a variety of factors: ADHD, Autism or Ausberger's, mild MR/DD, or maybe just plain personality traits.

If "J" thinks the kid is workable and is willing to commit the time and energy needed (and Sifu agrees), then go for it but in it for the long haul. You have a lot to overcome. Be patient and work on things in small segments. Pick a couple of areas to focus on and hit them hard. Attention span and dojo ettiqueteappear to be a good place to start. It's okay to talk about video games, but not during drills or instruction.

Good luck!



[This message has been edited by kenposan (edited 09-28-2004).]

Thanks, kenposan, for your reply. I am just trying to take it class to class with this one, and keep working his basics (stances, posture, etc.) until he gets it. He may be a white belt for a very long time.

The student in question does seem to have some social issues, but they aren't ones I am familiar with. My 16-year old daughter has ADD, and couselors/doctors are thinking maybe mild Asperger's, but she never acted out like my student does. Perhaps it's a matter of degree.

Anyway, we have class tonight, so here we go again... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Kenposan has it right, based on your description of the kid's behavior, it sounds like he has Asperger's Syndrome. This is a Pervasive Developmental Disorder characterized by extreme social awkwardness and isolation, with poor gross motor coordination. Temper outbursts are common, even over mild provocations. Cognitive abilities usually fall in the normal to low-normal range. These kids are your stereotypical "nerds". They prefer playing video games, working on a computer, collecting bugs, etc. to socializing with others. We have a young man (now 16 years old) in our dojo with Asperger's. It was rough when we started, but his parents were patient and understanding and supported our efforts with him. He takes a couple of psychotropic medications, which have definately helped him control his moods. The combination of the meds, the firm but compassionate support and the parents have helped this kid attain a brown belt in Shorinkan karate. However, karate may not be your student's cup of tea. Just do your best like you have done, maybe learn more about Asperger's Syndrome to help you help him on his journey. Good luck!

[This message has been edited by budobrubbie (edited 09-29-2004).]

Here's a suggestion, do as you will with it.

Take video of J in class, and later show it to him and his mother together. Maybe if he sees himself and sees his own behavior, he will be motivated to change his attitude. Most people are quite humbled when they see/hear themselves.

I'm not saying this is the solution. Look into medication and psychologists and all that stuff too.

[This message has been edited by Foolsgold (edited 09-29-2004).]

I would probably advice him to do some Judo first, get used to contact without being hit

This is the exact reason why I think contactsports aren't suited for selfdefence, most who need it, do not like to be hit at all

Also maybe some tag-sparring where only the body is a target might help him with his fears of being hit, eventually, the head could be a target
The problem was he was hit from behind and that scared him the most I think in sparring, especially tag sparring if not done at full speed will allow him to see what is comming end get used to being hit

Break his work down into tiny steps for him.

He is obviously having trouble processing the whole thing and needs to feel like he is succeeding, so making tiny progress steps will be easier for him to feel like he is doing something.

Agree about him needing to see what is coming at him before it hits him.

Sounds like he has some form of ADHD or a similar condition. Keep the stuff simple and short and focussed so that he is paying attention. Get him to show you how good he can do something very simple. Next time make it a bit harder until he is slowly improving.

We do an exercise with punch drills aiming for the kids to keep their guard up well all the time. Those that do not keep the guard up properly get pressups and more pressups while the best ones get a reward at the end.

Make it very simple at first with just a jab and a cross, keeping the guard up well. Do say 10 sets, if u see kids dropping their guard start again at 1 and keep repeating until they can make the 10 sets.

If they continually fail to keep their guard up then they do 10-20 pressups which will help to strengthen their arms anyway!

I have a student with asbergers syndrome. He also had compulsive obsessive behaviour regarding hand washing (literally HAD to do it every 15 to 20 minutes. There were and are some severe family problems that have a huge affect on him.

He has been training for around 6 years and is now 15. He passed to brown belt (3rd kyu) a few months ago.

When he first started training a couple of other instructors told me he would not last 3 months. His school teacher told me "he will never be able to do it"

It has taken longer than most to reach this level, but so what? He enjoys his training, his body control has improved tremendously and he feels a real sense of achievment (something lacking in most other areas for him). I truly believe that if he sticks at it he will go on improving and gaining confidence.

Don't give up on this child unless he really is taking too much time away from the rest of the class.
Sharon

Sorry, just re-read my reply and realised that my last paragraph sound like an order [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

I meant to say in my opinion, you should not give up on this child unless....etc.
Sharon

No offense taken, and I appreciate your input. I am not going to give up on the kid unless it develops that other students are being shortchanged. I think I am going to try videotaping J, Sifu does it with other students sometimes. It IS an eye-opener sometimes. It was for me!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

And I think breaking down tasks into the smalles possible units will be helpful as well.

[This message has been edited by sunspots (edited 10-06-2004).]

Talked with Sifu, he approved the videotaping, and will bring in the camera for me to use. He is also frustrated with J's progress, and is willing to try a different approach. We'll see how it goes...

Good Question, I learned alot reading the replies, and your post provided alot of information, but keep in mind there may be some hidden issues you have no way of knowing about. His lack of coordination, may work itself out, he could be late developing. kids go through spurts, maybe he was a "latchkey" kid and stuck inside playing video games after school. Inappropriate reactions could indicate some past histor of abuse. So there may be alot of obstacles well beyond your ability to overcome. I mentioned a few possibilities, just as examples of why there are no blanket solutions. But like kenposan said, work a a few simple things until he masters them. I think his coordination will improve with some simple exercises like leg lifts, pushups, and situps. Jumping rope is probaby beyond his currect ability.. If you can bring the student up to the level where he is keeping up with the other students, and mastering the basics. You will have learned what a teacher's real reward is. And maybe your sifu has made this your task to help your progress. Granted, parents bring the children in to learn the lessons Martial Arts training provides childresn, and it's an old tradition in the orient, but they beat the kids there to get their attention. So you have certain limits how to deal with the lack of respect and disruptions his behavior causes. I know this isn't much help. Just be patient, try and give alot of positive reinforcement. and I would suggest keeping a journal of every class you keep. Because you will learn more from that activity, and will help you in the future than you could imagine .

A couple of people above said Asperger's and I would agree too. Nice description above. I have an adult with Asperger's syndrome in our special needs adult class and he does very well and enjoys and learns from the class. I had a child with Asperger's that I was seeing privately that after he passed his yellow belt test, we put into the regular class. Goals need to be modest. The most valuable things you might be teaching him may have to do more with safety awareness. The rest may be an opportunity to main stream, get some exercise and fun and improve coordination. Striking drills may need to be avoided with any other kids. He may need to do his drills in the air or only with an adult.

I am seeing this from another side. My first impression is that you said you are a blue belt. Not putting you down, what you have done is great, but I don't think you should be handling the situation. You still have things to work on yourself, and only have limited experience dealing with students on a regular basis. Sifu/Sensei should be handling this problem in my opinion. I think it is asking an intermediate student a bit much. Training beginners and juniors is trying enough, but you don't have enough experience to deal with a student with special needs. In the years of teaching, an experienced Sensei may have found little tricks or ideas to handle such situations. as exampled by Wado Woman. Its honorable and great you asked for help, but I think Sifu put you in a tough place. One of the best byproducts of teaching is learning yourself. If this student is taking your time away from others, and slowing your progress, you need some help. How can you develope your teaching style with this added pressure. I am not saying the student should be neglected, or not trained, but I think this is a Sensei/Sifus job or a senior student. They will have more experience to deal with the problems this child has. I am sure with the right guidance the student can learn Martial Arts and have it help him. I had an ADD student with some bi polar problems as well. I finally had to take him out of class and do privates, with him and his dad to get a foundation and a base to work from. He was taking too much time away from other students and was a terrible distraction. He just couldn't or didn't want to work with others. Instead of giving up, I put him in an environment that I though could teach the discipline and keep him on task. He constantly had his dad and I keeping his focus on training. I still haven't got him in regular class, he's still too disruptive around other klids, but we are trying to intergrate him a little at a time with his dad on the floor as well. Dad is progressing so we give him a bit more and he can help at home too. I have another mother in the kids class for a socially backward student, but he is out growing it and moving on. Mom should be able to stop soon if she wants to. Just some thoughts for you.

Senseilou,
No offense taken. It IS a difficult situation.
I am teaching for a couple of reasons, one being because it seems to increase efficiency in in school. While I teach the beginners their basics in the early class, Sifu can give extra help to others in the later class (the one I learn in)who come early just for that reason. Students in our style are also required to have some teaching experience as they move up the ranks, and it seemed silly to have Sifu teaching left and right when others needed more advanced help, so this is part of my training. (Sifu will stay late after the second class to help me with whatever I need, so I don't feel I am missing anything.)

However, neither Sifu nor I expected to have the student in question in our ranks, and we are both learning as we go. We do the best we can on any given day with J., and hope. Often we split the class, and Sifu will take some of the kids, and I will take some, so that the kids can get more personal attention. (Much easier to work with 4 students than 8, especially beginners whom I want to get off on the right foot, and mixed ranks!)

The question of J. may be a moot point, he hasn't been in class since before Christmas.

I appreciate all the responses to this post, and will continue to welcome any suggestions or ideas. I want all my students to feel that they are getting good training, even if I am a lower rank.

sunspots

i find that treating youngsters - even those with behavioural disorders - as young adults works very well. i jump on them for even minor infractions, but REALLY jump on them with praise when they do something - ANYTHING - right. You've got to show them that you are capable of positive reinforcement right off the bat, so that they get a lift in spirits and can latch onto that psychologically...

I agree, bobmax. It's become my philosophy to dish out correction with a spoon, and honestly earned praise with a shovel. Everyone likes to know what they are doing right.

i think giving up on a kid with this many social and physical problems could be very streesful for him. I think that persaveronous will give both of you something to be very proud of.

I was willing to continue working with him, but I believe he has quit of his own accord. I have not seen him in several months. If he returns, we will try again.

So now I try to see what lesson there was for me in this situation. Patience, tact, kindness all come to mind. There may be others I haven't figured out yet. But J. was/is a valuable part of my journey at any rate. I hope that I had at least some positive impact on him...

If he wants to learn, then try. It must be really hard. I've known a few students who were like yours. But they never lasted more than a month. If he continue's to train, he will either leave or get better. If he gets like that that easy, than he wouldn't be able to put up with much more with out improving. That said, if he doesn't start to get better soon he shouldn't be aloud to stay. As you mentioned, It's just not fair to the other students. What happens if some one taps him accidently while controlled sparring, And he brakes down, the other guy would feel terrible. No matter how small, or accidental the contact was.

haha, that kid sounds like me a fair bit, personally I won't wander away when someone is talking to me, but I will look around

sounds like the kid's got an overactive mind, and he needs constant things to keep him occupied, if his mind is on one thing, you should notice a definite improvement over a short period of time, if he can talk while practicing kicks, even if he does badly at both, it means he's got a skill just a few have, multi-tasking

if you can use your mind at the same time as your body it's something to be encouraged, if he's around again try to encourage him to focus more on martial arts, but you never try to appeal to him about it, you simply act in a way that will catch his attention more, simply showing that you can break 40 bricks with one finger or something amazing won't do it, you have to have him interactively trying harder things that he can do well and learn easily enough, that he can put his mind to and get success at fast


at least that's how I work, and I understand that martial arts is all about dedication, but I've personally gotten bored of the basics

I'm rather certain he feels the same way I do, that when you learn a set of basics enough, you should be able to move on, so that you can learn how the basics are important to the more advanced parts, on your own

if he sat down and started sleeping I'd be worried about him not wanting to learn

the problem is that you're not giving him enough material to learn, try to blow his mind and I'm sure he'll focus on you better then all the other kids


for instance, sometimes I become extremely hyperactive and nothing will attract my attention for more then 10 seconds, however, it leads to amazing feats of skill due to an extreme usage of brainpower, it'll take much less time for my brain to work through an issue then normal

I was playing with my friend at pool, I normally almost lose to even him, he's not too good himself, however I was hyper one day, and amazingly, well... I got 5 balls in in one turn, and in the other game as we only played two, I hit a ball in, bounce the cue ball off it, hit another ball and got it in, without paying too much attention to this


but my accuracy was on par, whereas usually I'm the worst player

simply put, he's bored and you're going too slow

but there's other people in the class I recognize, so sometimes it's a challenge, you don't want to give him special treatment I'm sure, but I've been on the receiving end of forced equality myself, and it's very hard to control yourself when this happens

Hi all. This is my first post so I'd just like to say Hi first of all.....

Your student definately sounds challanging, and seems to have to some servere confidence issues. I read a quote the other day the said "Most Martial Arts classes are designed to weed out the weak spirited!", the article went onto to suggest that the weak are the exact people Martial Arts should be aimed at. It kind of got me thinking about my Martial Art and why our classes do not attract huge numbers. Locally we are known as an extremely tough system, sparring and applying our stuff hard. This has gotten to be a reputation we have become kinda of proud of.

The students we tend to get come through the door are often experienced Martial Artists looking harden up their training. Most of the people who come off the streets very rarely stay more than a month or two. As I said this has got me thinking.

Most people want to learn martial arts so as not to get hurt. When they first get hurt, it is a huge culture shock to them, and completely the opposite to what they wanted to originally achieve. The approach we are now starting to take (I can't confirm whether it's working coz we've just started)...is to slowly build up their defensive skills as a priority over teaching them to attack. The theory is that once they have the confidence to slowly parry and evade techniques we can start working in progressively harder techniques and increase the intensity of their stuff so that they can become accustomed to and confident with the idea that they might (and probably will) feel pain during their martial arts experience.

I am also in agreement that you shouldn't have been left to handle this at your stage in the game. Practicing a Martial Art and teaching it are two wholely different ball games! http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
smile

Hi Gavin

When newcomers visit the site, if they put a link to their website I always try and have a look.

I know when websites are put together there's a lot of pressure to get things done and sometimes there are errors that get corrected in due course.

However, the introduction page of your website has one of the best slips I've read in a long time. It says;

"We pride ourselves on teaching a pure combat system, as the original fighting arts were meant to be. We do not water our techniques down for competition, and will not teach anything that we believe will work in a real life confrontation."

I suggest someone needs to do a quick edit!

I know this is an old thread, but it's a good topic. First, I would agree with Senseilou. At your level, you never should be put in that situation. It's no shot at you by any means, but you're talking about one of the most difficult situations that only someone with many years of experience would even have a chance at dealing with successfully. In my school, though I have been instructing for the past 2 1/2 years, even I'm not allowed to deal with "problem students". My sabumnim believes that there is no one who DOESN'T benefit in some way from MA's, but that doesn't mean that anyone can automatically be successful in teaching them. We've had 3 students in my school with such problems since I've been there. All 3 are still there and now treated as "regular" students.

The first problem was parental intervention. If the parents won't give COMPLETE control, he will not take the student because he says without it, there is no chance for the student to recognize him as the only authority. Second, if they agree but then sit in the students view crying their eyes out, it's just as bad. Now the student thinks there really is something to cry about. If he gets the support from the parents, the student knows Sabumnim is the only authority, and he is VERY strict with them. The longest I've seen these mental battles go on is 3 weeks. Then they follow him. It's an amazing experience and reminds me I have alot to learn. It's no picnic for Sabumnim either. It completely drains him mentally. As you, I also help in the class, but still under his direction. He focuses only on this student and I'll focus on making sure the other students doing what they've been directed to. By far the much easier of the two tasks.

Regards,

Thanks, that's been pointed out more than a few times now....I've taken a bit of stick at the Dojo for that too! It's all corrected now! It's our first attempt at a site so I've been playing around quite abit! Thanks for spotting that rather embrassing typo!!!!!

Just checking in again on this thread.. The student in my original post is long gone. But I think of him every now and then and wonder how he is doing in the rest of his life.

I learned from this experience that maybe this person just was not meant to be a martial artist. Not everyone is, of course, and maybe he is really great at something else. I would like all the students I teach to be wonderful, but I need to see them all as individuals.

I learned that I can't "fix" people.

My Sifu has mostly relieved me of teaching duties for now, so that I can concentrate on improving my own skills and being ready for my Brown Belt test somewhere up the road. Underbelts still come to me for help with things, and I am glad to help them whenever I can, they are all my family. I hope to return to teaching someday, perhaps I will be better equipped to deal kindly and properly with the "problem students."

There are many issues involved in the situation which you describe. Some are severely inter-related, yet many may stand on their own two feet (as the saying goes).

Teaching children is a difficult matter. Good students are by definition EASY to teach, the hard ones are what seperate the professional teachers from the amateur instructors.

Some children may not be ready for what we do, many possibly?! You cannot spend all your time with those who are causing you issues, nightmares, problems. If you do, everyone else suffers. If the behavior is a danger, obviously you remove it/them.

If the problem is maturity, well that too is beyond your scope. You get a few minutes a week to cope with them, for good or bad, it is only a few moments time. The queston becomes, do you believe this child is helpful or harmful to what you are doing, attempting anyway?

Contact of any type WE are responsible for ultimately. Its why you must be extra vigilant with whom someone partners. Some kids are a dangerous mix. Others too giddy, or too whatever the case might be. Moniter and intervene if its a bad match.

Your instructor is not in the same room you are supervising? Even so, speak to him/her and lay out your concerns, fears with the challenges you are facing... ultimately no matter what we offer here, it will be the two of you who will succeed or fail, and our help will not in the end matter too much.

Keep them, drop them <shrug> you must pin down the most important issues and iron them out first. After that, the smaller ones are less alarming I would suspect... In the final analysis the boy you describe if you can figure his challenges out, will make you a far better teacher. Thrown out, and the opportunity is lost.

Its my opinion, I could surely be mistaken...
J

J came to "us", or at least ~your child~ has some evil twins around ; ).

No, the child you describe is very common experience. High maintence, needy and something malliable <sp.?> still able to be easily formed. Find a way to reach them, and you get an excellent student. If they truly quit, it is unfortunate but we cannot force them, if they choose not to stay, to work! Hopefully we keep far more than lose and of those we lose, hopefully will return someday, truly ready the second time.

J

I think a hard approach should be taken with consent of the parent. We have something in our dojo called the bull ring. (where the students form a ring around the person and push him around until they get a rise out of him) This is a sort of "kill or cure" method and should not be taken lightly as someone may get hurt or the person may just give up the classes in fear. Another method is gradually introducing contact to him. Individual padwork starting with light hits with the whole class(so the student doesnt feel a spectacle) to build his confidence up or even shadow boxing. i dont know what to do about posture so i cant help you there. hope this helps

Quote:

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We have something in our dojo called the bull ring. (where the students form a ring around the person and push him around until they get a rise out of him)

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Now that I have had a little time to digest this statement, Ill try and respond as calmly as possible.

This kind of training / teaching method is, without exception, the most irresponsible kind of barbarism I can imgaine.

Look at your own terminology..."push him around".

God in heaven...I cannot imagine this kind of cruelty in a professional setting of any kind. This speaks to me of a head instructor so drunk on his own power and arrogance that he feels bullying people is an effective way to deal with an issue.

Parental consent?? Please. Most parents know nothing about the martial arts, and an instructor would have an easy time convincing them that this is an acceptable method of instruction.

Believe me, I am as hard core and demanding as instructor as you are likely to meet, and this is so far out of the realm of acceptable teaching methodologies, I cant ever begin to voice my anger and distaste.

And what is worse, is coming here and advising a blue belt to try this medieval insanity on one of his students!!

Please...abandon this nonsense. Its teaching at its most depraved.

Galen