Training women.

While training women over the last 5 years I have noticed that there is a distinct preference for stop thrusts and inquartata thrusts with opposition amongst women while men generally prefer to launch cuts from above. While I'm aware of the reasons for this I was wondering what differences between the sexes appear in other Martial Arts?

Alex.

There are a few things I have noticed in training women. I have trained several women including those in law enforcement.
I will not trying to stereotype anyone. There are exceptions to every rule.

1. Women tend to look or stare at an opponent's eyes, which can be completely misleading.

2. Women are generally more flexible in the wrists and elbow which can make it difficult to apply locks or bars on them.

3. Women have trouble generating upper body strength but can generate tremendous power from their hips and leg.

4. Women tend to panic and give up when in a choke-hold or submission hold.

5. Women enjoy techniques that involve grabbing the head or hair, or any strike or kick to the groin. OK this one was in fun, but I find it true more than not.

6. And last but not least, when overwhelmed a man will drop his head or bend at the waist, women tend to turn their backs when overwhelmed.

[This message has been edited by Kuma (edited 08-22-2004).]

Interesting post Kuma.

I think you are spot on except that I have not noticed that men are any braver about chokes than women. Maybe the men you know are more experienced than the women you know. In my experience, beginners of both sexes panic when the first start with chokes, but it's something you get used to (trusting your training partner obviously helps).

Another difference I have noticed is that on a large training course where lots of groups come together, men are more willing to partner different people whereas most women prefer to partner someone they already know.
Sharon

Sorry, double posted - I thought the pesky flood control was taking even longer than usual lol
Sharon



[This message has been edited by still wadowoman (edited 08-23-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kuma:
There are a few things I have noticed in training women. I have trained several women including those in law enforcement.
I will not trying to stereotype anyone. There are exceptions to every rule.

1. Women tend to look or stare at an opponent's eyes, which can be completely misleading.

2. Women are generally more flexible in the wrists and elbow which can make it difficult to apply locks or bars on them.

3. Women have trouble generating upper body strength but can generate tremendous power from their hips and leg.

4. Women tend to panic and give up when in a choke-hold or submission hold.

5. Women enjoy techniques that involve grabbing the head or hair, or any strike or kick to the groin. OK this one was in fun, but I find it true more than not.

6. And last but not least, when overwhelmed a man will drop his head or bend at the waist, women tend to turn their backs when overwhelmed.

[This message has been edited by Kuma (edited 08-22-2004).][/QUOTE]
As an instructor,You'er not to work on the strenghts,But on the weaknesses, Of each individual. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]


[This message has been edited by Isshinryukid4life (edited 08-23-2004).]

I was sent an e-mail and asked to comment on this aspect of training as I train many women and have a standing self-defense class just for women. First of all let me say that I think women get a raw deal in martial arts training and I am a big advocate of women in martial training. I actually spend more time with my women and girls than with the guys. First of all they listen better and try harder to do what you ask. I see one big difference and that is sometimes you have to explain things differently, but thats it. I think women may 'understand' differently than men,I think they pay attention to detail a bit more. So when I tell "my girls" to say do a block, they want to know where, and if I say the arm, they will say where on the arm.I think their attention to detail is much keener, so I have to be more detailed oriented with them.
The biggest issue I have faced through the years is to try and get women to see training differently than the men. There is a difference in body mass, so I am not saying they are inferior, (actuall I wish I had female hips, I could really use them to my benefit)but built differently so I try to stress 'technical excellence' and do away with any thoughts of trying to muscle their technique. Once I convince them to see things in a more technical way, and not compete with the guys and try to do it the way the guys do, I have great success. Occasionally though I do have a female student who wants to beat the guys at their game, and I have a hard convincing them to change. Please understand I am not saying women shouldn't spar with the guys, or say that women are anyway less qualified to train then men, I just think they need to approach training a bit differently. Once "the girls" have bought into my 'program', they easily handle themselves with the guys and usually teach them a lesson or two.My female students are much more technical than my men and it usually shows in their techniques.When you look at things like throws, and locks, the females need to be more technical to handle the body mass of the men. Especially in takedowns, so most of my female students takedowns are better than the guys because of their being so technical. I tell all my students that once they walk on the mat that sex is not an issue. So my female students go on the ground with guys and do everything that they guys do, only difference is I encourage them to be more technically excellent to deal with the body mass difference. I personally take offense when guys come into the school and don't want to train with women. I had one student tell another "you hit like a girl". So I got my senior female to work with him, to show how a girl hits. He has never said another word again!

Thanks guys.

Your opinions are much appreciated.

Alex.

I wish I could say I trained a woman, but it's probably the other way around. They say that husbands are like floors. If you lay them right you can walk all over them for years.

I think there is also the point of how it works in real life. I am 5'1" and if I want to kick/ punch a man in the head I find a strike to the groin will get him to lower to my height. Why make life difficult?

I'm in Eastern Mass and looking for training opportunities where I can feel comfortable. I'm an older female (56)and I'm getting more experience at either being last chosen when people pick partners, or not chosen at all, or having people look at me as if I were speaking some strange language when I ask them if I can join as a third. I'm not going to stop training. I just have to try harder to find appropriate training opportunities. I need training opportunities in AMOK and pressure point fighting. Do you have something I might be interested in at your dojo? If this isn't the correct place to post this, please forgive me. This is my first post on this forum. I've been poking around in reading it and I am just getting familiar with it.

I have one woman in my BJJ class. She has been there for about two months and is by far my best student when it comes to paying attention to detail. I only have to show her something once.

At first I find women and young girls(especially teens) don't feel comfortable doing groundwork. I let my female students first just go with other females, then with me, then with everyone. Its hard to get that comfort zone where females are ok with rolling with a male. However, my females are excellent on the ground. My daughter and one other female student have done BJJ for 10 years and Sambo for about 5. Both are very good and I have had requests from several school for them to come in and demonstrate their ground art. They give my male students a fit, and only 2 males can take them on the ground, myself and the other male Shihan. My new female students are getting acclimated to ground work by working with these two females, and are getting that comfort zone. I think the reason they are so good on the ground is that they don't use power but focus on technique, "excellence of execution" is what I stress to them, and they all really enjoy rolling with each other. Its great training for them and I have about 10 females now practicing ground work. Its good for their cardio as well.

evan though women arnt as strong they make it up in agreshion and their techneique is alot better than most men as we tend to think that our strenth is our asset.

I am a Taekwondo instructor, and one of the big things that I have to deal with is the fact that my female students are often harder on themselves than my male students.

I know that my female students have the necessary abilities, they just put more pressure on themselves to perform techniques correctly. One thing is for sure, and that is once they get comfortable with a technique they can certainly perfect it faster than most males that I have trained. Again, I agree with the attention to detail factor here.

As a female, I think I can explain the attention to detail thing. I am overmatched all the time because I am learning and practicing all the time with men who have hands that are larger and stronger, they are taller, stronger and have greater reach. I have to make my techniques work. When then I teach in the Jr. High class, all of a sudden I feel like a genius. All my techniques work just fine. I figure that must be how males feel when they train with me. I have all the same advantages when I work with the Jr. High. I am also always aware that as a female black belt, I am a conspicuous minority in the dojo. I always feel that I have to prove myself because the males don't want to train with me. Yes I am critical of myself and I pay attention to detail because I have no peer group. It is only determination that keeps females coming back after a certain age. Given the domain of generalizations and their limitations, I don't think a male can really understand the isolation and lack of support felt by females in the upper ranks unless they have a husband or boyfriend that they are training with.

Either I am in the minority Or I am just really thick skinned [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

I have rarely encountered sexism in the dojo, on the few occsions I have I see it as the other person's problem not mine.

There have been a couple of occasions when I have been approached by prospective male students who have asked "where the BLOKE in charge is" I normally answer that I am the bloke in charge. If they stay to train, great, if not their loss not mine. The men that do train under me treat me with respect as do the people I train with and under.

I have visited other dojos both with and without my husband, again with very few problems.

To be honest, I don't even think of myself as part of a minority, just a martial artist.
Sharon

I agree, sw, and I don't think that this is a sexism thing. Instead, it is a subtle difference in training technique. Each practitioner learns in a different and unique way. I think that we are merely pointing out that many times (and this may sound stereotypical, so I apologize in advance) women show the traits mentioned in the previous posts more than men. I have the utmost respect for any person training with me, because I know that no matter where I go or who I train with, there is always going to be someone who can do it faster, better, and stronger than me - and that someone may very be a woman! Heck, I train with 15-year-olds that can run circles around me!

As always,
Happy Training!

Wadowoman......I think alot of times its how you carry yourself. You obviously know how. But you must admit you have seen females who hold their heads down, won't look you in the eye and are very tenative in what they do. These are the one's guys take advantage of. So I teach my "girls" attitude. They need to have the self-confident sway about them. this I think is most important. Another thing is talk is talk, but its how you act on the mat. If you take control on the mat, you will earn the respect. You obviously have. I have trained my daughter to take charge the moment she hits the mat, no matter who's on it, and always be in control. this will always gain anyones respect.

You could be right about attitude. I train at two different dojos. In my home school is where I have the problem. I think maybe I do need to look at my attitude. Clearly, from your responses, my problem is not at all universal. Thanks- it is certainly worth a look.

I also have not found sexism in my Taekwondo class, and I don't think our instructors would allow, especially since one of them is a female who I have great respect for.

I have found that the women in our class have had an easier transition to grapple or spar with the men then the men with the women. I think it is inbred in the man that they are stronger then the female and your are not to take advantage of this. I myself when sparring women tend to take it a little bit easier and then find myself being out kicked and sometimes out powered.

Then during a test where I was a helper I was called upon to face a women for the one step sparring techniques. On the Taegeuk 3 one step sparring you must first block with your one hand and punch to the jaw while coming off to the side. Then you must give a palm strike to the chest at the same time sweeping the legs. When they hit the floor you need to lock out the elbow on your knee and strike to the head with the other hand. This has to be done for both sides of the body as well as the other person must do the same to you. I felt weird about palming striking her to the chest so I did it to her shoulder.

This is the difference between men and women ... we are made differently. Men tend to be more self conscious about the female anatomy. This does not have anything to do with sexism I think it is just inbred.

Just to let you know, she did excellent for the falls and the attacking. I have much respect for the women in my school.

I think seseilou is right that it is a question of attitude.

I also wonder whether it is diferent in the UK. Hard to judge because, from an instructing point of veiw I don't personally know any other female instructors that run a club without a male chief instructor.

From a training point of veiw, I only personally know one other female dan grade.

Underdog,
This is in no way a critism, but even your screen name suggests you may feel inferior (or is it used with irony?). Like I said, I don't even think of myself as part of a minority group. I am just another dan grade. yes, most of the other dan grades are bigger and stronger than me, but so what? You see plenty of small male dan grades and they do OK, why shouldn't we?
Sharon

Wado.....I think the situation is the same all around. Miyako Fujitana Sensei(Steven Segals first wife) took over the dojo when Segal Sensei came back to the U.S. to make movies and such. She had a terrible time in Japan as very few females were heads of schools. She is also very petite and looks like you could just blow her off the mat. However looks are decieving and I think she is the best Aikidoka I have ever trained with, and this includes some of O'Sensei's Uechi Deschi. But many males just refused to learn from her.
Here in the states you see a bit more of it, but I am seeing more husband and wife teams now teaching. I haven't been to or seen a female dojo owner here in the states but know there are some. Its got to be hard, because of the male dominated arena, to break through. My daughter is about 5'3" 110 pounds. She was never taken seriously by the guys, let alone grown men. So I had her start with just training women to get her the confidence she needed. When she realized she had something to offer, I taught her 'attitude' and when she would have a male resist or give her a hard time, I told her to start "busting people up" Its a shame she had to do this, but it got her the respect she deserved and many times instantly. Men will start to wake up when they get rocked by a female, so I encouraged her to do so.I also had her 'shadow' Professor Imi Okazaki-Mullins, Professor Okazaki's(of Danzan Ryu Jujutsu) daughter, and had her watch how Professor Okazaki-Mullins took control of the room(She is my favorite practioner, male or female, with Professor Wally Jay a close second)My daughter learned alot from her, and now has a lesser problem during seminars, but still gets the same old, "what can a little girl do" I think it will always be that way though. My best training partner of all time(beside my kids) was my Sensei's wife. We would pound each other until we couldn't walk out of the dojo. She has since retired but she was a great training partner. There was nothing but lets beat the hell out of each other, I didn't hold back, nor did she. I treated her like anyone else, and we both had great respect for each other.

That is what it takes, mutual respect and seeing what the other can bring to the table. Their are too many males who can't get through this though. You are not a minority, just a good martial artist who has something to offer, and men need to realize that a female has just as much to offer as any male.

ATTENTION UNDERDOG

I know of the instructor for you in Mass, Im not sure of how far it maybe for you but I would suggest to seek out Shawn Marando, Gold's Gymnasiam he is in Mass, I belive Boston or near it, He is a Boston Police Officer, of the Rapid Responce Units, He teaches PDS (Progressive Defense System) and it contains the style's therories of AMOK, Kuntao Silat, American Traditional Hapkido, All the tehcniques taught are all street provin technques, He is an awsome instructor, He also has a complete system/style dedicated to police,security personal called Copkido. His email Address is >>> copkido@yahoo.com <<< Please seek him out you will not regret it, I know his instructors are based in MASS. You can also check these website as well, These are the site of the men who taught Instructor Shawn

This site is to Prof. Sotis *AMOK* http://www.knifefighting.com/amok/

And this is the style of Kuntao Silat http://www.kuntaosilatdethouars.com/


Hope this helps, I highly recommend these instructors, Shawn is from My masters first black belt in America after coming back from Korea after 9 years in Hapkido and I met him in 99 when he recieved his 5th dan hapkido and he started training us in his style and I must say to all Martial Artist's Kuntao, Silat, AMOK, PDS, Copkido are exceptional arts worth adventuring into.