Teaching Children

i teach a Tae Kwon Do childrens class for belts white to green.The children are fairly young, and their attention spans tend to evaporate fairly quickly doing drills the adult class does. SO most of the teaching i do is through games. i have some really great ones, as well as discplinary tricks, if anyone would like to trade! lol

kitten

Hi Kitten,

To be honest I prefer not to teach children by playing games. I prefer to teach them in the same way I would an adult. I think children who don't see their martial arts class as a serious thing whilst they are young will have trouble doing so as an older child/young adult.
If their attention span is not long enough to complete a lesson, then in my opinion they are not mature enough to be there.
The only differnces I make are:

I do not teach chokes/strangles or other lethal techniques to the very young

I maintain close contact with their parents and their school to ensure what they are learning is not being misused in any way

I allow a toilet break after 45 minutes (obviously they are allowed to go before the break if they need to but they are encouraged to go before we start to avoid disturbing the lesson)

I explain things slightly differently according to age

I am not saying my way is better than yours, this is just what works for me and my students.

As for discipline, they are told once if behaviour is inappropriate and the next time they are made to sit out for a few minutes before being asked if they would like to re join the class. Consistent bad behaviour means speaking to their parents, which again I only do once. I have only ever had to tell one parent not to bring their child back in six years of teaching.

I am interested to hear how you operate your class though.

Sharon

agree with wadowoman to an extent.
Our children's class has game day-play knee tag,strike pad soccer,etc to break things up a little bit.

discipline them by having them hold concentration positions,push ups,smurf jacks.

Okay, I have to ask - smurf jacks???

-Charlie

Smurf Jack-1)squat down(butt against heels),feet close together.Hand down at sides
2)do a jumping jack motion-hopping so feet go out past shoulders,keeping the butt down in a low squat.Clap hand above head.
3)return to starting position

comes from a prison movie. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by nekogami13 (edited 07-27-2003).]

Sounds unsafe and inapropriate for adults, never mind children.
Still, if it was in a prison movie, it must be OK! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]
Sharon

We have yet to have anyone die from smurf jacks. Cry,whine "I can't do this!", no fatalities as of yet.Though we keep trying. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif[/IMG]

i agree, all but the attention span part. the kids I teach are from 4 to 8 and all of them stand still and listen well, can tie their own belts, say yes mam and sir, and can count in korean to twenty. Ive just noticed they tend to not like class when we do the same things the adult class does, well, because that is fun for adults not a 6 year old. SO i teach them thier techniques in a more kid happy format...

king of the mat. all the kids stand about 3 feet away around the sparring ring, and one by one each kid gets a turn going up there with me. i have a blocker thingy and start striking with it. the kid has to block them, and if he misses a block or steps out of the ring he has to go sit back down...

elite slides. usually people learn these from expierince from sparring, but kids really get a kick outta them and learn footwork at the same time, so we practice them. when we spar they actually try them and they work!

synchronazation (??) games. pair the kids up have them work on kicks together, but they have to do the simultaneously. only work on baisc kicks here, so the kids can slow it down and get the steps down. after awhile, they have beautiful side kicks and roundhouses! i also have them do physical type things like holding your partners shoulder while doing things like grapevines or RRs

of course we work kicks in the mirror and do forms and onesteps, just some of those things teach little things and kinda break up the motonany! i have more...

Kitten

Nekogami13,
Unless I misunderstand your description of smurf squats, I maintain that they are dangerous.
We should not bend our knees from standing more than 90 degrees as this can cause permanent knee damage. Jumping in the way you describe (if I have understoond correctly) has a very real risk of landing on the cocsyx (sp?). I have attempted these from your description and would be horrified if a visiting instructor asked my students to do them.
Sorry

Kitten, sorry I misunderstood when you said GAMES. I have seen some ridiculous ones with little relation to martial arts and more a way to keep the kids coming and extract money from the parents under the false pretence of learning karate, etc.
The drills you describe sound a great idea and are not disimilar to some of the ones I do myself.
Sharon

We also mix up our training drills with the kids with a few "games" like knee boxing tag in a low shiko dachi position, holding positions longest, Sempai says [variation of Simon says so they remember the names of the positions, kicks etc], tag with focus mits, doing the most pressups/situps etc etc

We do these after the kids have trained well as a reward for doing a good job & working hard. The "games" are all focussed on making them stronger and learning more.

The other thing we do is kata with eyes shut. Very interesting! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

We use pressups & situps and being sent out of the class for bad/dangerous behaviour for disciplining them too.

haha we do forms with our eyes closed too, but with our belts wrapped around their heads and they get spun around...

very cute! lol

You're teaching children. - Period.

This has nothing to do with teaching martial arts.

Once you accept that, you can do anything in class that is fun and keeps them occupied.

Oh, the cynicism [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

JohnL

You're in good form again John....

Just in case you hadn't realised it, the kids are going to be the martial artists of the future. We try to train them to love learning their art.

As they get older and more serious they perfect their techniques and become useful.
They learn that they should train properly and they do.

John

What would you say about a boy who started karate at aged 9 and a half. His dojo didn't play games, but he was expected to take his training seriously. Many of his school friends started at the same time as he did. Most left once they realised it was not a playground. Some stayed a couple of years and left because they were not grading quick enough or because they were not self disciplined enough to train 2 or 3 rtimes a week in the summer when their friends were out playing (fair enough, not sure I would have been at that age either).
Five and a half years later, he is coming up to his junior first dan (to be retaken for obvious reasons between the ages of 17 and 18).
He has been assesed by respected instructors who have been training for many years who do not teach children as a general rule. These instructors think he is as good as some adult 1st kyus (obviously lacking the strength of a man, but that will come). He has a good understanding of body mechanics and is very responsible about how he uses his training.
He is my student and I am very proud of him.

I think (could be wrong and I am sure you will tell me if I am!) that you are opposed to the Mcdojos that profess to be teaching children martial arts but are really just amusing the kids and taking money under false pretences (we have them in the UK too).

Are you also opposed to young people like the boy I describe above training in martial arts?

Not starting an argument John, I agree with a lot of what you say on these forums and am genuinly interested in your point of veiw.
Sharon

Agree with Wadowoman.

A very good friend of mine began Tae Kwon Do at age 7. His club was just barely legal(I doubt it was legal at all, thats just what we says), and quite often the students went all out full contact sparring. Many times they would come away with some pretty nasty cuts and bruises, a few broken bones, etc. This instructor would have them do hundreds of push ups and sit ups a class. Not surprisingly, eventually the instructor was arrested for supposedly beating his wife. The surprising part? None (and I mean NONE) of his students believed he did it...Now you would think that these kids would hate this man after all this, but no, they love him for everything that he did for them. He trained them exactly how they wanted to be trained, and anybody who didn't want to, left.

10 Years later, my friend is going for his second degress black belt in Tae Kwon Do, and also holds first degree black belts in aikido, jujutsu, kenpo, and hapkido. He is the best fighter (for his age) I have EVER seen. The entire school is afraid of him (though he is the nicest guy). He has taught me alot as a friend and a Martial Artist.

I wish I had stayed with the arts as a child, I didn't realize their importance then. Needless to say when I have children, they will be introduced to the arts at a very young age and will stay there until they are old enough to make an educated decision to leave. Children don't always know what they want, Lord knows I didn't, and I kick myself everyday for making the choices I did.

Ender, I don't think the kind of training that your friend had is suitable for children. Teach them the same drills as adults, the same kata, and sparring, whatever, but full contact shouldn't be used with kids. Maybe this instructor did give the kids just what they wanted from their training, but like you said yourself, children don't always know what they want, and they certainly don't always know what is best for them. Your friend might be a great fighter now, but how much damage has also been done.
To be honest, I'm surprised that an instructor like that has any students, kids at least, because most parents wouldn't let their kids go back after they've come home a few times with injuries more serious than than the odd bruise. It's a shame too, because the parents that did withdraw their kids from this guy's class will have gone away with a very negative impression of MAs.

-Charlie

Ender with respect, any instructor that allows children to spar full contact or to regularly sustain the injuries you describe should be shot!
I would like to clarify that my juniors are allowed to spar semi contact only. Adults are a different matter.
Sharon

I feel a number of posts in this thread require a response. I haven't got hours to spend so I'll do them gradually.

First, smittenkitten

[QUOTE]Originally posted by smittenkittenTKD:
i teach a Tae Kwon Do childrens class for belts white to green.The children are fairly young, and their attention spans tend to evaporate fairly quickly doing drills the adult class does. SO most of the teaching i do is through games. i have some really great ones, as well as discplinary tricks, if anyone would like to trade! lol

kitten[/QUOTE]


The question should be asked, why are you teaching children anything, never mind a martial art.
At 14 or so I assume you have no formal qualifications to teach children. A university degree and masters in teaching would be useful.
I presume your ability to teach a physical exercise to young children is based on your qualifications in this field.
I further assume that you are fully qualified in first aid and are fully aware of the current health difficulties of all your charges, having discussed these with their parents.
Does your dojo's insurance company know that the instructor allows a child to supervise the childrens class and are you covered under this policy.

It may seem that I'm having a go at you, but I'm not. Honestly. It isn't your fault.

It's your instructors fault for putting you in this position. He's using you as slave labour to do what he's being paid to do. He's either too lazy to teach (in which case he should not be in the business) does not like teaching children (in which case he should not hold classes for them) or see's his older children as a source to be tapped to make him money.

Before letting my children join a class of any sort, I would find out who was going to teach them, their qualifications to do so, their insurance coverage, etc.
If I found that the teaching was delegated to other children I would not let my children go there.
It is time that this exploitation is stopped.

JohnL

Now for Enders post on the subject.

"A very good friend of mine began Tae Kwon Do at age 7. His club was just barely legal(I doubt it was legal at all, thats just what we says), and quite often the students went all out full contact sparring. Many times they would come away with some pretty nasty cuts and bruises, a few broken bones, etc. This instructor would have them do hundreds of push ups and sit ups a class."

Anyone who runs a class such as this belongs in the middle ages. He should have been sued out of existence. I can't beleive the parents were stupid enough to let their children train with this imbecile.

"Not surprisingly, eventually the instructor was arrested for supposedly beating his wife. The surprising part? None (and I mean NONE) of his students believed he did it..."

That's not suprising. Simply indoctrination.

"Now you would think that these kids would hate this man after all this, but no, they love him for everything that he did for them. He trained them exactly how they wanted to be trained, and anybody who didn't want to, left."

Simply shows that children don't know any better and need to be protected.

"10 Years later, my friend is going for his second degress black belt in Tae Kwon Do, and also holds first degree black belts in aikido, jujutsu, kenpo, and hapkido. He is the best fighter (for his age) I have EVER seen."

For a 17 year old to hold the number of grades you say, exhibits the worst in MA McDojo situations. For someone this age to hold these ranks at his age, totally devalues all ranks of serious MA's. No wonder I've turned into such a cynical old fool.

"I wish I had stayed with the arts as a child, I didn't realize their importance then."

Ender, I've got news for you. You're still a child.

"Needless to say when I have children, they will be introduced to the arts at a very young age and will stay there until they are old enough to make an educated decision to leave. Children don't always know what they want, Lord knows I didn't, and I kick myself everyday for making the choices I did."

This statement just confirms your level of maturity. I have no doubt that you will continue to grow and mature into a fine upstanding young man. Your views on how to raise children will change many times during that period.
And even then, when you have children, you'll get it all wrong. Sorry. it's just the way it is. All parents get it wrong. You just do the best you can.
As for putting kids into a MA class and staying there until you say it's ok. That's probably the easiest way to make them hate the MA's and give up straight away.

As for me, my eldest daughter trained until 2nd kyu and gave up. She said it was due to breaking her collarbone when practicing breakfalls. I tend to think it was a convenient excuse. She was 13. Girls at 13 tend to do that sort of thing. Maybe she'll come back, maybe not, I don't know.
My younger daughter took up karate, stopped and restarted a year ago. She enjoys it so she goes. I don't make her, nor do I believe she's doing other than having fun.
Long may she have fun.

Like I said, as with all other parents out there, I'm probably getting it wrong as well. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

JohnL

Smittekitten,
I didn't realise how young you were!
John is absolutely right, what is wrong with your instructor? You can not be insured. If a child is injured through no fault of yours and needs medical care that there is no insurance to pay for how will you feel? What do your parents think about this? What do the parents of the children you teach think?
This is certainly immoral, if not illegal.
Like John, I am not having a go at you, I agree it is not your fault. I imagine you are very flattered to be asked by your instructor to teach, but it is wrong.
Sorry

John, I hope you have time to answer my post, especially now that you have told us your own children train. I assume that you were talking about younger children?
Sharon

I keep forgetting that the laws in other countries and the ways of doing things are so vastly different to ours .......

I "belong" to our Martial Arts Club
- it's a non-profit organisation where we all give freely of our own time and expertise. No-one gets paid to teach and the monthly training fees are small to cover costs of hall hireage and equipment replacements etc.

We don't sue people here, and we don't have to insure ourselves against lawsuits or injury because its all covered in our taxes. Hospital care is free. Accident care is free. Physio is free if its an accident.

Everyone signs [parents sign for kids] the enrolment form that basically says, all care - no responsibility for accidents etc.

Most of us have first aid certificates and/or training, in fact I'm usually the one that patches up the wounded for obvious reasons.

We all take a lot of care to ensure that the kids don't get hurt or hurt each other. Kids do not do sparring until they reach blue belt level and then all sparring is done with safety equipement and is light contact only.

From what I've gathered, in some places where you guys come from, do people actually make money out of teaching martial arts???

I'm stunned.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Your views on how to raise children will change many times during that period.
And even then, when you have children, you'll get it all wrong. Sorry. it's just the way it is. All parents get it wrong. You just do the best you can.
As for putting kids into a MA class and staying there until you say it's ok. That's probably the easiest way to make them hate the MA's and give up straight away.

As for me, my eldest daughter trained until 2nd kyu and gave up. She said it was due to breaking her collarbone when practicing breakfalls. I tend to think it was a convenient excuse. She was 13. Girls at 13 tend to do that sort of thing. Maybe she'll come back, maybe not, I don't know.
My younger daughter took up karate, stopped and restarted a year ago. She enjoys it so she goes. I don't make her, nor do I believe she's doing other than having fun.
Long may she have fun.

Like I said, as with all other parents out there, I'm probably getting it wrong as well. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

JohnL[/QUOTE]

I agree totally with you on this one! We all get it wrong, sometimes many times every day!!!

We all make mistakes, kids will do as they will.

I made similar mistakes with my son with riding. I pushed him a bit.

He loved it initially, did it for a few years, and he was so talented that he would have been world class material as a teenager. He gave up [I was very disappointed because he had wasted so much talent, and I mean TALENT!!] but that's his choice. Maybe he will return to it later in life, or not.

Ditto with soccer and he was very good at that too. He could always find goal from the other end of the field, he could really KICK!

He has stuck at his MA and loves it, and I'm not about to push him in any way at all because it's his decision to train or not. I hope he keeps at it because he has a great attitude.

As for my daughter, well she & I'd love it if she could do MA too but as she's quite disabled [she has Cerebral Palsy] and she's in a wheelchair and it's just not possible. Doesn't stop her from trying to do good pushups and situps though.... and she loves watching the other kids training.

And she loves riding her pony.

Reiki.

In Britain it is the norm that MA instructors have a day job and teach in their spare time in hired church halls, community centres, school halls etc.
We charge to cover the hall hire, our travel etc.
Unfortunately, there are also a growing number who make a lot of money by charging ridiculous amounts for licences, joining fees, gradings etc.
I think in the US, many have or hire purpose built dojos and have students who pay up front for several months and the whole thing is run as a business.
Sharon

its my fault, i didnt explain well enough, i was trying to simplyfy. I co-teach with a 21 year old man who is a certified teacher and a second degree black belt. And im only temporarily teaching, my instructor is from Korea, and his parents still live there. His mother is dying so he took about 5 monthes off 2 stay with her. Before i could even think of teaching, i had to take a couple of Red Cross Courses in Basic Aid Training and Babysitting. The insurance does cover me, seeing as a certified adult is with me.So its not as "immoral" as you might have thought.

I started TKD when i was 4, and have never taken a gap year off or even a break that lasted more that two weeks. I am the only teenager in the place (well except this one guy whos 17, but i choose to ignore him and his pick up lines), since all the girls think its too rough and the boys have more conventional sports to play. So ive seen many younger people give it up, like your daughter john L, especially when it starts getting tougher.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]kitten

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
Reiki.

In Britain it is the norm that MA instructors have a day job and teach in their spare time in hired church halls, community centres, school halls etc.
We charge to cover the hall hire, our travel etc.
Unfortunately, there are also a growing number who make a lot of money by charging ridiculous amounts for licences, joining fees, gradings etc.
I think in the US, many have or hire purpose built dojos and have students who pay up front for several months and the whole thing is run as a business.
Sharon[/QUOTE]

ok, so in the UK it's pretty much like it is here in NZ & Aust. Ditto, we all have proper jobs and help out for the love of it.

Our club's $40 joining fee gives a newbie:
1> a video detailing the kata and routines they need to learn for yellow belt
2> a very nice club tee-shirt
3> the student handbook which gives info like dojo etiquette, basic forms and all the different belt level grading requirements etc etc
4> AND it covers the first months training fee.

They have to buy their gi through the club but we don't make any money on the transaction, they don't have to have a gi to participate, although they won't grade unless they have a gi.

Also new prospective members get 2 free sessions to see if they like it before we ask them for any money.

Pretty fair deal isn't it! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Our Grading fees have just gone up to $40. This covers your new belt, a large beautifully printed certificate, the hireage of the hall used for the day and the out of town expenses for the grading panels, some of which have to fly in from a long distance.

Some of the $$$ also goes toward the special medals and awards presented after the mid-year grading. [I got one of these this year for being top senior female Budo Warrior for our dojo and it was a lovely medal & certificate!]

We only have gradings [for those above yellow belt] at National level twice per year.

Everyone works *very* hard to get selected for grading!

Hey WW

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
John

Are you also opposed to young people like the boy I describe above training in martial arts?

Not starting an argument John, I agree with a lot of what you say on these forums and am genuinly interested in your point of veiw.
Sharon[/QUOTE]

No I hadn't forgotten you, but I have a job to do as well.

I have no objection to children training. In anything.

Also when they're in the dojo, it really doesn't matter what you do with them providing it's not dangerous, and they have fun.

The objections I have are:
(Yes, I know maturity levels vary etc. so don't take me to task on that)

Children ages 3-11 are not taught MA's and instructors should stop telling the parents that they are. You are providing a baby sitting service in an environment that is good fun for the kids, gives them some exercise, and they get to wear funny pyjamas. Great, no problem, just stop telling people that it's a Martial Art.

Stop selling MA's at this age (or potentially any age) as character building, will make them better people, will toughen them up. Just about any sports activity has the same attributes. Great, no problem, just stop saying that MA's do something unique when in fact other sports also do.

Personally, I don't like calling what I teach a MA until kids are about 14/15 and even then it can be iffy.

So, what view do I hold.
Overall I have no problem with kids in the MA's although I wish people would stop selling it as something special. Yes it's fun. Yes the kids have a great time. But I'm not a babysitter, nor do I want to be one.

JohnL

Thanks for replying John.

I agree with you that martial arts do not necessarily make anyone a better person. If they did, we wouldn't have people who profess to be ridiculously high nth dans charging money for old rope at association seminars etc. Most sports/arts take dedication and perseverance if one is to do well in them, so martial arts are certainly not unique in that respect.

We will agree to disagree on what age is suitable for children to start martial arts.(I think it is slightly lower than you do, but can not believe that some stat at 3!) As you say maturity varies from child to child.
Thanks again for replying
Sharon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:

We will agree to disagree on what age is suitable for children to start martial arts.(I think it is slightly lower than you do, but can not believe that some stat at 3!) As you say maturity varies from child to child.
[/QUOTE]

We won't take them until they are at least 7 [I cant believe some kids actually start at 3!], but agree with you that the older ones are more able to learn and apply what they've learnt. Also they generally have better personal discipline and attitude toward training.

In any case I believe that the total body control and co-ordination they learn in MA is better than in most other sports apart from riding and swimming.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Reiki:
We won't take them until they are at least 7 [I cant believe some kids actually start at 3!], but agree with you that the older ones are more able to learn and apply what they've learnt. Also they generally have better personal discipline and attitude toward training.

In any case I believe that the total body control and co-ordination they learn in MA is better than in most other sports apart from riding and swimming.

[/QUOTE]

Soccer, Rugby, athletics, gymnastics swimming, diving, roller blading, skiing, etc.

Shall I go on.

JohnL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Soccer, Rugby, athletics, gymnastics swimming, diving, roller blading, skiing, etc.

Shall I go on.

JohnL

[/QUOTE]Yes Jk, tell us more. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Don't confuse young with stupid. I hated being talked down to as a kid in school, especially when you have more than a few suspicions that your teacher isn't all that bright themselves.

Kids lack maturity, but not brains and they can spot BS a mile off.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Soccer, Rugby, athletics, gymnastics swimming, diving, roller blading, skiing, etc.

Shall I go on.

JohnL

[/QUOTE]

I'm ok with a bit of soccer, some athletics, gymnastics & swimming - but when did rugby ever do anything for total body awareness other than provide a way to break necks and produce yobbos?

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

[plse remember that I come from the "home" of the All Blacks - and I see far more than many of you do - the terrible results of rugby accidents] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

As for diving, roller blading, skiing, well I'm not convinced any of these are better for total body awareness. Skiing is a good way for wrecking knees as is rollerblading! And diving into a pool ??? Next you'll be saying that synchronised swimming is better than MA..

I'm just having a little dig..... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Still think MA and riding and swimming are the best...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yoseikan Student:
Don't confuse young with stupid. I hated being talked down to as a kid in school, especially when you have more than a few suspicions that your teacher isn't all that bright themselves.

Kids lack maturity, but not brains and they can spot BS a mile off.[/QUOTE]

yeah totally agree with u on this!

My son is nearly 10 [going on about 16!] and he is very quick to spot any cr@p
- and he will tell you too!

I try to treat the kids like they are small adults with less experience [& also with less maturity], but never treat them as being stupid or talk down to them. They do not work as well with people who treat them like morons or inferiors.

Hi Reiki:

I never said other activities were better, just that they were as good as MA's.

As for the rugby, the All Blacks, isn't that the team that lost to England recently. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

As for diving, if you don't think that those guys have amazing body control, well, there's nothing I can say to that.

I just don't think that kids are being taught a MA under about 15 or so. It's just fun, and there's nothing wrong with that.

JohnL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
As for the rugby, the All Blacks, isn't that the team that lost to England recently. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

nah! They are the ones who thrashed the Aussies recently........

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

if body control is all you are seeking-go study yoga or ballet.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:

We should not bend our knees from standing more than 90 degrees as this can cause permanent knee damage. [/QUOTE]

This is a myth, although the 'Smurf squats' in question may be too difficult for most people to perform correctly and/or the knees maybe too weak for them to perform in an explosive manner.

In fact hindu type squats (going all the way down in a squat so your bum touches your heals - but with no bounce has got to be controlled and so your heals come off the floor so you are balancing with your back straight on the balls of your foot) are actually beneficial for your knees and will help strengthen them.

In fact I agree with Tom Kurz that a Kicking Martial artist should be able to do 100+ at least.

In fact, there was an article I read very recently - I think it was the BMJ or something that the most unstable position for your knees is at 90 degrees and therefore stopping at this position could in fact be more dangerous. If anyone is interested I can look up the reference (I normally keep a note of this stuff but I have just moved house and everything is everywhere!)

UKFF,
I would be interested in any reference you can find on this.
I stated that more than 90 degrees was dangerous because that it what I have been told by the English Karate Governing Body who issue my teaching certificates.
Nekogami13, if this proves correct, I appologise to you.
Sharon

Sharon,

To be honest, if you look at most of the training courses that you will do with any organisation whether it be Martial Arts or not you will find a lot of stuff based on out of date reports that have filtered through.

And to be honest, you know why - its through laziness (not calling you lazy by the way) but exercises that are deemed difficult - such as deep knee squats or deadlifts, occasionally have some evidence to say that they are bad for you (normally through incorrect training technique or methods) which are then put into print to join other study's which contradict this (which is good - so people can make a decision by themselves and go through the evidence).

Now do you see what I am talking about with laziness? Well what I mean is someone reads 'This difficult exercise is bad for you' its easier to take and drop from a routine, whereas 'This easy exercises is bad for you' is a lot easier for people to dismiss, purely because the brain says 'its easy so I can't be bad for you'.

I will sort out the references when I have got my flat sorted out - I will also supply references that counter what I have said and agree with yourself and the EKGB.

I just read both arguements from different sources and went with the one that made them most sense to me (and about 2 billion chinese people and the whole of India).

Thanks UKFF,
To be honest, I believe you because it is obvious from your other posts that you have researched a lot of stretching/body mechanics etc. and what you are saying here makes sense.
I want the evidence to show the EKGB because if I teach something they say I should not and there is any comeback from a student, I could lose my teaching licence.
You are also probably absolutely right about laziness. Lots of organisations and individuals just go for the eaasiest way to make the most money.
That's why most martial arts are so watered down. There are several "Wado" clubs in my area that only do half the curriculum, cutting out the bits that are difficult to teach or perform). That is fine with me, but I wish they wouldn't call it Wado.
Same goes for "self defence" doesn't it? If people are leaving because the training is a bit rough many people will make it more gentle.
Waste of time and money for the student, but very profitable for the instructor.

Sorry to go off at a tangent, thanks again for the information and your opinion.
Sharon

No problem,

Although I won't be able to for probably about a month or so, I will put together a fully referenced report on this matter. It will basically be drawing together the different evidence and theory for both arguements - and reasons why (I dont think - because people are lazy will cut it, but I might mention it for fun [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] ).

I might be able to ask the BPA (or whatever they are called now) for a reference on this too, as I have a Gym instructor certificate with them. But I do have countless books and reliable internet sources which I will be able to use for evidence.

Thanks so much UKFF, I really apreciate you takeing the time and trouble.
Sharon

Sharon
I'm a director of the EKGB and sit on the Management Board, the Director of Coaching is Suzanne Genery who is an eminently qualified Sports Scientist and takes all the most recent advice. Personally I don't agree with some of it, but it is subject to the latest information in sports science and coaching from Sport England.

My Association use the National Vocational Qualifications and are an Accredited Centre for their delivery because we feel that they are more thorough in their approach to Sports Coaching and administration, the qualification is also recognised more readily by facility providers, insurance companies and courts (in the event of a law suit). Along with the Criminal Record Disclosure it also enables our Instructors to teach in the physical education programme in schools.

We have statistics to show that the Karate programme in the Medway schools here in the UK has had a dramatic improvement in the concentration levels and behaviour in the children that took part. Their other sports couldn't achieve the same results. I believe it's simply because the children enjoy the activity more and it contains the good behaviour code and demands attention. We are also using more specialist teachers (10 - 20 yrs training, 2nd - 3rd dan NVQ qualified level 2 and 3) than maybe the other sports.

In our club we use a monthly payment system by direct debit and this makes the students attend more regularly, we write an individual report on each child each month and this makes them pay attention and learn more efficiently. With children we use praise - correct -praise and it works!

Not wanting to make this too long... someone said treat children like mini adults.... I would reverse this and say treat adults like big children!

Steve

But I did forget to say...

In the UK coming down the line very fast, the Governing Body has it's Child Protection Policy in place along with all the other sports, each Association will have to appoint it's own Child Protection Officer to liaise with the national CPO for the sport and local sports groups, police, sports development officers and so on. Each coach will need to be a qualified coach (probably the new National Coaching Certificate that's being mooted leading to NVQ) and have an enhanced Criminal Record Board disclosure. These will need to be renewed every 2 years.

Steve

Bossman

As I have not trained in Karate for a few years (KUGB) and have no knowledge of the EKGB stuff I don't want to comment on policies or training techniques.

But generally I meet Martial artists day in day out that are not strong enough to be able to do the art, but also training technqiues (for example doing static stretches after the warm-up).

A good way to point out what I mean is by watching premiership footballers doing static stretching before they go on to play - and then they wonder why they pull a hamstring and get injured!!

If you have no objections (unless you think it will fall on deaf ears) I will still put together a paper on deep knee exercises and their benefits for both health and development of Martial Arts as discussed in this thread.

Although I do not have any sports qualifications I do have a first class business degree and so I am experienced in research and do have a gym instructors certificate, a Shodan grade in KUGB Shotokan as well as belts in Kickboxing and Judo.

If you have any questions, please feel free to email me:

matt@fightfreak.co.uk

Hi Bossman [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

I am a fully qualified EKGB coach.

With respect, all that means is that I have paid a lot of money to my association to read a manual. I was awarded this qualification without anyone ever watching me teach or asking me questions (apart from how would you like to pay).

I think the guidelines and the theory behind the EKGB coaching program is sound. I think the application of it is a nonsense (and this may be the fault of associations rather than the EKGB itself, I am not in a position to judge who is at fault).
It is a standing joke between instructors in this area that there is no point telephoning, emailing or writing to the EKGB for information as they never reply.
Again, no disrespect to you personally, I don't know you, but I do know that I only stay in the EKGB because it is Sport England recognised and therefore easier/cheaper to get insurance. There is no other reason to stay unless your club is into competing in a big way.
Sorry to be so negative, but I have been teaching for over 6 years and could site many examples of dissapointing contact with this organisation.
Sharon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
Hi Bossman [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

I am a fully qualified EKGB coach.

With respect, all that means is that I have paid a lot of money to my association to read a manual. I was awarded this qualification without anyone ever watching me teach or asking me questions (apart from how would you like to pay).

I think the guidelines and the theory behind the EKGB coaching program is sound. I think the application of it is a nonsense (and this may be the fault of associations rather than the EKGB itself, I am not in a position to judge who is at fault).
It is a standing joke between instructors in this area that there is no point telephoning, emailing or writing to the EKGB for information as they never reply.
Again, no disrespect to you personally, I don't know you, but I do know that I only stay in the EKGB because it is Sport England recognised and therefore easier/cheaper to get insurance. There is no other reason to stay unless your club is into competing in a big way.
Sorry to be so negative, but I have been teaching for over 6 years and could site many examples of dissapointing contact with this organisation.
Sharon[/QUOTE]

Hi Sharon

Someone in your association should be doing the courses and assessing.....

But that's also why we do the NVQ's... as you have to be assessed by a qualified assessor, then your portfolio of knowledge by another assessor, then this work is verified by an internal verifier and then an external verifier from City and Guilds before you are certified. That is why the qualification is more widely recognised.

I've been teaching for 30yrs and held most positions in the various Governing Bodies including Chairman. If you or any of the other Instructors have any disappointing experiences with the EKGB, email me and I'll deal with them for you.

Insurance is no cheaper with the EKGB, in fact I'm the the Chairman of a large multi Martial Arts group with our own policy, so even our EKGB registered students are on our own policy because it's more comprehensive and not limited by the EKGB definition of Karate.

Sounds like someone in your group needs advice. I'm happy for them to mail me.

Steve

[QUOTE]Originally posted by UKfightfreak:
Bossman

As I have not trained in Karate for a few years (KUGB) and have no knowledge of the EKGB stuff I don't want to comment on policies or training techniques.

But generally I meet Martial artists day in day out that are not strong enough to be able to do the art, but also training technqiues (for example doing static stretches after the warm-up).

A good way to point out what I mean is by watching premiership footballers doing static stretching before they go on to play - and then they wonder why they pull a hamstring and get injured!!

If you have no objections (unless you think it will fall on deaf ears) I will still put together a paper on deep knee exercises and their benefits for both health and development of Martial Arts as discussed in this thread.

Although I do not have any sports qualifications I do have a first class business degree and so I am experienced in research and do have a gym instructors certificate, a Shodan grade in KUGB Shotokan as well as belts in Kickboxing and Judo.

If you have any questions, please feel free to email me:

matt@fightfreak.co.uk

[/QUOTE]

Hi Matt

The EKGB are heavily involved in Sports Excellence with all the top sports physio's and coaches up to this point funded by Sport England.

I would certainly be interested in anything you put together and if you would want me to submit it to the Coaching Director would be happy to do so on your behalf or give you her email address.

I have spent some years on the "Yang Family body softening exercises" which are very different to anything else I've seen taught in sports and the MA and have made a good few trips to Hong Kong studying with Yeung Ma Lee the current head of the Yang Family and daughter of Yang Sau Chung. It's fascinating stuff for me.

Steve

Bossman,
Thank you for taking the trouble to reply [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

I accept that each association is responsible for training and monitoring instructors and that EKGB lay down strict guidelines for this.

However, EKGB do not (to my knowledge) check that each association is doing so. I have met some very unscrupulous instructors, ripping people off, bullying, dangerous training practices etc.

Additionally, most associations are run as a business for profit. There is nothing wrong with that per se, but we can't be sure how many instructors are instructors because it is making some one else money in licence fees etc., rather than because they are suitable instructor material.

Sorry again to be so negative, these are just my feelings on the subject.

Respectfully
Sharon
P.S.
BTW, I did not mean in my previous post that EKGB insurance is the cheapest. What I meant was that insurance companies are happier to insure instructors belonging to a Sport England approved governing body.

Hi Sharon

I wouldn't call you negative but realistic. We actually think very much the same. The reason that we didn't take the EKGB Coaching programme on board, (despite the fact that I'm a Director) is because my loft is full of useless Coaching certificates from the EKC, MAC, and two from the EKGB. Governing Bodies come and go and so do their various coaching programmes, all become worthless very quickly. I have already lodged my objections to the prospective NCC. NVQ's are deeply embedded in the framework of our society and are Europe wide. They are also subject to a verification process from City and Guilds and are therefore much harder to cheat. Because of funding the EKGB have to "passively police" their woefully inadequate Coaching programme and go on trust.

Whether a club or association is professional or amateur is immaterial, it's the quality of the service that they perform that's important. It seems to me that many Instructors are interested in the get rich quick ethos or just as bad, gratifying their ego at the cost of young lives. That's why I'm unhappy with the Government of Karate and work to change it.

If you insure through the EKGB your insurance cover is subject to the definition of Karate given by them, we took out a seperate policy to cover sweeps, locks , throws and weapons that were not included in their original definition. I'm also working to change that.

I'm also working at present to produce an annual Handbook for them that will include all the knowledge you require to operate a Karate Club/Association including codes of conduct, rules, regulations, child protection, coaching etc.. I hope to have it ready for issue in the new year, so that everyone has all the latest information.

I write the EKGB column in Martial Arts Illustrated magazine and have interviewed most of the "leading lights" in the organisation - all of them are on my site at
http://www.shikon.com/article_links.asp?typ=AG1002

You might find some of them interesting.

Regards

Steve

Bossman,
Thanks for your reply, it is very encouraging.

I can see the reasoning behind having all instructors take an NVQ. I think it is a good idea in theory but it will be a logistical nightmare. Have you any idea how much this will cost instructors?

The handbook sounds like a great idea, as long as people do adhere to the guidelines. What do you think about printing the guidlines (or a summary) in all licences with an association and an EKGB contact number in case of infringement? I did suggest this when suggestions were asked for at my coaching course, but the head of our association said that was not necessary.

Would you also consider putting together similar guidelines on Dan gradings? Or if you have already could you direct me to a copy? I am sure that you are aware that there is a vast variation of standards in dan grades within most governing bodies.
Sharon




[This message has been edited by wadowoman (edited 09-17-2003).]

Wadowoman:
I can see the reasoning behind having all instructors take an NVQ. I think it is a good idea in theory but it will be a logistical nightmare. Have you any idea how much this will cost instructors?<<

It varies on how many people take it at the same time. Often the Chief Instructor or his nominee qualifies first as the Assessor, we run a few one day courses on portfolio building and training and subsequently assess verify and submit the portfolios. I'll mail you our the email address of our Coaching Director who is also a Lead Verifier for City and Guilds, he will be happy to advise you.

Wadowoman:
The handbook sounds like a great idea, as long as people do adhere to the guidelines. What do you think about printing the guidlines (or a summary) in all licences with an association and an EKGB contact number in case of infringement? I did suggest this when suggestions were asked for at my coaching course, but the head of our association said that was not necessary.<<

It would have to be a BIG licence! :-D Our Association guidelines are given to all our instructors and we post a students rights charter on the noticeboard in our Dojo along with a complaints procedure.

Wadowoman
>>Would you also consider putting together similar guidelines on Dan gradings? Or if you have already could you direct me to a copy? I am sure that you are aware that there is a vast variation of standards in dan grades within most governing bodies.<<

Have done so, written by me for the Association. I'll mail them to you with the other info and am happy to post them on the forum if others want.

Steve



[This message has been edited by Bossman (edited 09-17-2003).]

Bossman,
From what you have posted here, your association sound like a good one.

I hope you will consider using your influence on the EKGB board to try to make these practices the norm rather than the exception. The kind of instructor that voluntarily lets its students know how they can complain and what they are entitled to are probably not doing too much wrong. I would like to see it compulsory for ALL associations within EKGB to have a similar policy. I am not sure how pracical this would be to enforce. The same goes for the dan grading guidelines. I have never seen a copy of anything like that.
I llok forward to receiving the information you are sending.
Thanks very much for your time
Sharon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
Bossman,
From what you have posted here, your association sound like a good one.

I hope you will consider using your influence on the EKGB board to try to make these practices the norm rather than the exception. The kind of instructor that voluntarily lets its students know how they can complain and what they are entitled to are probably not doing too much wrong. I would like to see it compulsory for ALL associations within EKGB to have a similar policy. I am not sure how pracical this would be to enforce. The same goes for the dan grading guidelines. I have never seen a copy of anything like that.
I llok forward to receiving the information you are sending.
Thanks very much for your time
Sharon[/QUOTE]

Hi Sharon

My email to you was returned by AOL so I've sent a copy to the email address registered here, hope it finds you!

Steve

I have hard of many great Martial artists beginning their training when they were as young as 4 and this is common in China and Japan, so why not in the West as well?
Although culturally the Chinese do things differently and the training is a lot more harsh!
Jet Li started Wushu when he was 8 and that is the equivalent to baseball in America and football in England as in China its a National sport!

If you clasify martial arts as a sport then should start as young as possible.

JohnL

I read, only last month, of a 7-year-old who had just earned his first-degree black belt. He started at the age of three and a half. The boy got his degree from a dojo in NYC. My daughter studies in FL, but both dojos are owned and operated by the same people. In fact, this particular family owns a chain of dojos across the US. Does this mean that the entire chain is a fraud and that all the hard work and training my daughter has put in, over the last 4 years, is pretty much worthless? My daughter is currently a red belt and is looking forward to getting her black belt some time next year. Will this black belt now be meaningless considering that a 7-year-old is also a black belt, in the same system of dojos? I am kind of surprised that a 7-year-old got a black belt, actually, because when I started investigating MA schools, my daughter was about 4 years old, and no MA class would accept her, to teach her MA. They all said she could learn discipline and concentration, and so on, but not MA -- including the school where she now is. In fact, her current school does not start off kids in MA program until they are at least 7 years old. So, what is the deal here? What am I missing?

Hi, i would like to comment on Anpadh's concerns regarding his daughter. These are only my opinions though.

It is possible that the chain is a fraud, and i cant understand giving any minor a black belt, but perhaps, not everyone involved in the chain is a fraud.

To give a stupid example. There are two Arby's Roast Beefs near me. The one closest too me always messes my order up, and the employees are always yelling at one another. If i drive about 10 minutes out of the way, there is an Arby's which has yet to mess up an order, and the employees seem jovial. Both restuarants are Arby's, but they are managed quite differently. I think this issue is separate from whether there should be franchises in the martial arts.

If you have concerns, i would schedule an appointment with the instuctor where your daughter goes and express them. The way he respondes to your queries will help you make an educated decision. If he is unwilling to meet with you or is incredibly defensive or bragging, that will you tell you something.

~ED

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrEd:
It is possible that the chain is a fraud, and i cant understand giving any minor a black belt, but perhaps, not everyone involved in the chain is a fraud.
[/QUOTE]

Off Topic:

I find that offensive. Here we go: I'm 17 and have recently been promoted to Shodan. I started training when I was 4 and have trained without stop since then 3-5 times a week. I teach and understand the concepts of bunkai and kata better then most adults. Acording to you someone like myself shouldn't be a black belt. That's sick, if your idea of minor is someone under the age of 18.

Back on topic:

Other then that I agree with MrEd. Talk to your daughters instructor. Remind your child that, she has earned her belt through hard work. She knows her techniques. If she knows she's worthy of the belt that she possesses (sp?) then what does it matter if some fraud promoted someone who isn't ready.

There is always the option of finding another school if her instructor reacts in the way that MrEd has said.